ZombieVito wrote: larzooma wrote:
Piccolo's best feat is wrecking an SSJ2 Gohan that was likely at a level akin to his Ultimate self from the Buu saga. Other than that he doesn't seem to have much going for him; therefore, it's hard to place him over Android 18. What further adds to this is how Base Goku was seemingly unaffected by an attack that he went through the trouble of charging up; doesn't exactly work in his favor when Android 18 was able to defeat a stronger version of an opponent that Base Goku (holding back or not) had some trouble against.
After achieving his Ultimate form and completing his training with Piccolo, Gohan demonstrates he's around the same level in base as Goku. Given SSJ2 acts as a multiplier, Piccolo wrecked a SSJ2 Gohan at a comparable level to pre-ToP SSJ2 Goku.
In regards to his attack during the 2 vs 2 spar, it was clearly one of the joint attacks Gohan and Piccolo talked about practicing at the end of ep. 88. At best, it was meant to push weaker opponents from the ring, while distracting stronger opponents to give Gohan a chance of attacking them head on. Besides the obvious nature of the attack given the events of the previous episodes, it's almost impossible to use a single ki attack to define a character's strength. A number of reasons could cause a character to unleash less energy than they're capable of using, and vice versa.
Unfortunately, the rest of DBS offered little to show the gains Piccolo made since the start of the series.
Yeah, I never understood why people say Piccolo is under base Goku based on E90. Freaking Babidi survived Vegeta's suicide attack while being cut in half. A healthty Goku can easily do the same.
There's also Piccolo defeating and calling Gamisaras weak. That right there confirms Piccolo > 18.
We also have a Super writer and the manga implying Frost > Piccolo so that means Piccolo is most likely low to mid tier Super Saiyan level.
The main crux of this particular argument relies on a few things.
First, SS2 Goku is an easy match for an Ultimate Gohan that's been trained further and is implied to be stronger than before. This is before he further shows his true power against SSB Goku, and the recently reawakened Ultimate Gohan easily cut off Piccolo's arm with his hand, so SS2 Goku is already much stronger than SS2 Gohan whom Piccolo was a match for if not surpassed; Goku as a SS2 should definitely be stronger than Piccolo by any stretch of the imagination.
Second, Piccolo's Hyper Explosive Demon Wave is a move that those who are familiar with the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai know all too well, as it was supposed to be Piccolo Jr.'s trump card against Goku back then, when the two were pretty much equal. Piccolo using that move and charging it up drains him pretty well, and similar results were achieved against Goku in the Universal Survival Arc
as they were back then during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai; Gohan in his base form with a charged-up fist achieves similar results to Piccolo in terms of making Goku struggle against the force of an attack.
That's not even mentioning a bunch of material from episodes prior establishing Goku's strength being superior to that of Piccolo without transformations, as well as Piccolo and base Gohan being shown as relative peers during the Tournament of Power.