Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

it would appear he skews closer to base Saiyan.

Looking at the raw version of the chapter, I'm inclined to disagree. Freeza and Super Saiyan Caulifla looked like they were roughly in the same tier, with Caulifla having the upper hand. It was only through a feinting strategy that she was able to get a full decisive advantage over Freeza, who transformed into his Golden form in retaliation. Moreover, he was easily wiping the floor with her in her base form.

I'd say it's probably something like: Super Saiyan Caulifla > Final Form Freeza >>> (base) Saiyans.

For the anime, anyways, based on this information, I think my hypothesis of Final Form Freeza having a "base form" that's equivalent to the base Saiyans and a "full-power base form" that can potentially compete with the Super Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks, obviously) looks promising, though that's obviously just me.

Where these base and Super Saiyan forms rest compared to others? That one, we don't know for sure with regards to something we can generally agree on.

[DestructoDisc]

How strong do you guys think Kefla will be if she will appear in the manga? Even if she won't, how strong would she be?

[PFM18]

So in the manga, Kale is stronger than Golden Freeza by a wide margin and even with CSSB Goku?

This is just insane

[BlueBasilisk]

it would appear he skews closer to base Saiyan.

Looking at the raw version of the chapter, I'm inclined to disagree. Freeza and Super Saiyan Caulifla looked like they were roughly in the same tier, with Caulifla having the upper hand. It was only through a feinting strategy that she was able to get a full decisive advantage over Freeza, who transformed into his Golden form in retaliation. Moreover, he was easily wiping the floor with her in her base form.

I'd say it's probably something like: Super Saiyan Caulifla > Final Form Freeza >>> (base) Saiyans.

We're basically right back where we started.

[Xeogran]

How strong do you guys think Kefla will be if she will appear in the manga? Even if she won't, how strong would she be?

So in the manga, Kale is stronger than Golden Freeza by a wide margin and even with CSSB Goku?

This is just insane

If Toyo actually brings Kefla in, she'll be GoD level.

[PFM18]

How strong do you guys think Kefla will be if she will appear in the manga? Even if she won't, how strong would she be?

So in the manga, Kale is stronger than Golden Freeza by a wide margin and even with CSSB Goku?

This is just insane

If Toyo actually brings Kefla in, she'll be GoD level.

See considering how insanely strong Kale is in the manga, I don't think it would make much sense for Kefla to appear. I was certain prior to this chapter she would show up, but given the strength of the characters in the manga, she would be way too OP to be in the manga. Frankly, it appears that:

Anime SSJ Kefla~Manga BSSJ Kale

[IndieBooToo]

So in the manga, Kale is stronger than Golden Freeza by a wide margin and even with CSSB Goku?

This is just insane

True Golden Frieza is on par with CSSB Goku and even then Goku was getting pushed back. Frieza wasn't even taking Kale that seriously seeing as he was smiling and laughing about after she "pummeled" him and even got mad at Goku for interfering since he didn't need his help at that time.

[ZombieVito]

It's obvious by the images that Freeza just keeps up with SS Caulifla because of his psychic powers. Caulifla easily outspeeds him and deals big damage.

This clearly proves he's not SS tier like people were placing him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, with this new information and how well it correlates with the anime, where should we place everyone?

Is Freeza above Majin Buu, and are base and/or SS Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Cabba/Caulifla above Majin Buu?

Personally speaking, I think placing "base" Freeza and base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Cabba/Caulifla, as well as Piccolo, Frost, and Majin Buu all on the same general level would be the most probable conclusion. Of course, that's just me.

[Bullza]

I haven't read any of the above posts and I know nothing about the newest chapter but the scans are up so I'm coming to make the odd comment as I come go through it.

- Frieza seems to be stomping Base Caulifla. She has previously had the upper hand over Base Cabba who was equal to Base Vegeta. So further confirmation that he's above the Base Saiyans.

- Yet he appears to be below Super Saiyan level but not by a set amount. So that would seem to clear up any confusion. Some people said he was Super Saiyan God level however I definitely didn't think that because he transformed for Super Saiyan 2 Cabba.

- Kale though appears to be very different. Her Base form may be above the other Super Saiyans? Her Super Saiyan definitely comes across as vastly more powerful than in the anime. Blue level and then some.

[Marlowe89]

- Kale though appears to be very different. Her Base form may be above the other Super Saiyans? Her Super Saiyan definitely comes across as vastly more powerful than in the anime. Blue level and then some.

Base Kale is a competent fighter no doubt, but I wouldn't necessarily rank her above the other base Saiyans in raw power. I think she's just absurdly fast, which helped her distract Golden Freeza enough times for Super Saiyan Caulifla to get a couple of hits in. The fact that she never fought Freeza head on in base (unlike SS Caulifla/Cabba) should imply that she's weaker than the Super Saiyans. It's also important to keep in mind that she was always Caulifla's underling.

Her berserk Super Saiyan form reminds me a lot of what happened in Episode 100. I wonder if the writers just decided to nerf her later in the tournament to make room for Kefla's strength.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

- Kale though appears to be very different. Her Base form may be above the other Super Saiyans? Her Super Saiyan definitely comes across as vastly more powerful than in the anime. Blue level and then some.

Base Kale is a competent fighter no doubt, but I wouldn't necessarily rank her above the other base Saiyans in raw power. I think she's just absurdly fast, which helped her distract Golden Freeza enough times for Super Saiyan Caulifla to get a couple of hits in. The fact that she never fought Freeza head on in base (unlike SS Caulifla/Cabba) should imply that she's weaker than the Super Saiyans. It's also important to keep in mind that she was always Caulifla's underling.

Her berserk Super Saiyan form reminds me a lot of what happened in Episode 100. I wonder if the writers just decided to nerf her later in the tournament to make room for Kefla's strength.

Could also be that the Berserk state runs on fumes.

In the anime, at least, whenever Kale used that form, she ran out of gas pretty soon. But once she learns to control it, she's fighting in the form without much issue. It might be that the Berserk state is akin to SS3 in that it pumps out a lot of power but runs out of stamina and energy really fast, so the controlled form is overall better for prolonged fighting.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

It's obvious by the images that Freeza just keeps up with SS Caulifla because of his psychic powers. Caulifla easily outspeeds him and deals big damage.

This clearly proves he's not SS tier like people were placing him.

So, what you're saying is that the same person who presumably in manga continuity at least went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, got stronger since then through mental training, and then fought Goku again in a fight where both of them got bruised up is now suddenly weaker than regular golden Super Saiyans?! Come on, bro.

[Miracles]

Kale was established as Blue tier in both anime and manga.

[SuperDragoon]

Haven't read the chapter yet but it seems like Kale is much stronger than her anime self. And Base Freeza is much weaker than his anime self. Manga Freeza is around SSJ level while anime Freeza could be as high as SSG level. Kale was apparently fighting CSSB(?) Goku while anime Kale was around SSG Goku.

And no, Anime Kale is not SSB level. Goku was sandbagging against her. When he fought her seriously he only needed SSG to have an edge.

[Marlowe89]

Could also be that the Berserk state runs on fumes.

That could be the case as well; or in other words, the more "berserk" her transformation is, the higher her brute strength becomes. It might be a situation wherein her controlled state in the anime is beneficial because it allows her to retain her faculties and tactical thinking, despite being somewhat weaker in power.

The translated version of the chapter might provide further clarification. She did seem to power up again at the end.

[ZombieVito]

It's obvious by the images that Freeza just keeps up with SS Caulifla because of his psychic powers. Caulifla easily outspeeds him and deals big damage.

This clearly proves he's not SS tier like people were placing him.

So, what you're saying is that the same person who presumably in manga continuity at least went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, got stronger since then through mental training, and then fought Goku again in a fight where both of them got bruised up is now suddenly weaker than regular golden Super Saiyans?! Come on, bro.

I'm talking about Final Form Freeza not Golden.

[Hugo Boss]

For me, Base Freeza compares to Super Saiyan in a similar fashion that he did on Namek, that makes the powerscalling simple to understand in both stories. The anime is just more ambiguous about it. The final episode seems to have make things more clear when Goku and Freeza defeated Jiren.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

It's obvious by the images that Freeza just keeps up with SS Caulifla because of his psychic powers. Caulifla easily outspeeds him and deals big damage.

This clearly proves he's not SS tier like people were placing him.

So, what you're saying is that the same person who presumably in manga continuity at least went toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, got stronger since then through mental training, and then fought Goku again in a fight where both of them got bruised up is now suddenly weaker than regular golden Super Saiyans?! Come on, bro.

I'm talking about Final Form Freeza not Golden.

Well you did say psychic powers, which he didn't use until he went Golden.

[dragon boss z]

For me, Base Freeza compares to Super Saiyan in a similar fashion that he did on Namek, that makes the powerscalling simple to understand in both stories. The anime is just more ambiguous about it. The final episode seems to have make things more clear when Goku and Freeza defeated Jiren.

it would appear he skews closer to base Saiyan.

Looking at the raw version of the chapter, I'm inclined to disagree. Freeza and Super Saiyan Caulifla looked like they were roughly in the same tier, with Caulifla having the upper hand. It was only through a feinting strategy that she was able to get a full decisive advantage over Freeza, who transformed into his Golden form in retaliation. Moreover, he was easily wiping the floor with her in her base form.

I'd say it's probably something like: Super Saiyan Caulifla > Final Form Freeza >>> (base) Saiyans.

I agree with these. Frieza seems to be inferior to ssj, but definitely closer to ssj than base.

It's obvious by the images that Freeza just keeps up with SS Caulifla because of his psychic powers. Caulifla easily outspeeds him and deals big damage.

This clearly proves he's not SS tier like people were placing him.

Frieza did use his psychic powers to help, but he still landed blows and took a powerful blast from ssj Caulifla and didn't even go down. Not to mention Frieza could still arguably go buff if he really wanted to.