Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

When SS4 Goku fought Baby he used this same “little more power” remark and it was definetely a big power-up from SS3. I think this is only Goku being euphemistic.

Indeed, "chotto" is commonly used as a euphemism according to native Japanese speakers. It's a word with a ton of nuance and a whole variety of colloquial meanings both "very" and "little", not unlike our own usage of "bit".

So it turns out that the official subtitles weren't actually inaccurate in this case. The phrase is used in such a contextually ambiguous way that "I'm going to put a bit more power into it" might as well mean "I'm going to put more power into it" in Japanese.

[BlueBasilisk]

For that episode, sure, but by then she's been in and out of her uncontrolled state since her initial outburst in the tournament. I was referring more to Episode 100 in particular, which doesn't exactly rule out what the action suggests through its dialogue alone.

Vados sort of implied that her berserk state doesn't adhere to a set amount of power and fluctuates pretty wildly, which could leave room for the idea that she could approach that level under specific circumstances. If she turns out to be that strong in the manga, I wouldn't say that the anime is necessarily without a precedent.

For the most part, I'm just maintaining that the jury's still out on this one. It's ambiguous enough that the consensus could easily sway towards any direction.

Caulifla also says Kale has her ultra super power under control in 101, but then in 114 she doesn't again so I don't put much stock in the crowd commentary for these things. Kale does say her ki is rising and overflowing and Piccolo also notes her power going out of control in 100 before she wrecks the arena, so that lends credence to Berserker having wildly fluctuating ki.

For her SS2 form, it's hard to gauge how strong she really is because Goku only briefly engages her directly. They trade punches, he punches her after resisting her ki blast, she stops his big ki blast and that's it. Neither does any notable damage to the other, neither was in a powered-up state with an aura, and Goku 'wins' by isolating and overpowering Caulifla, who calls Kale off so they can fuse. Kale was raring to keep fighting. She certainly wasn't overwhelmed or 'blown out' like I keep seeing people claim.

Being able to cut through a ki blsst doesn't necessarily indicate a significant advantage. Assault Form Frost did it to Goku's Kamehameha in the U6 tournament, and Goku was almost certainly stronger than he was, though neither of them was fighting totally seriously. Then Saonel does it to Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha a couple episodes later while being sandwiched between it and Pirina's mouth blast, and as far as I can recall those two were shown to be on about the same level as Gohan individually.

In the Kefla/Goku fight we have a similar situation where SSBKK sends Kefla flying with a punch to the gut that scuffs her up a bit, and then she knocks him out with a single kick to the head. And I remember people downplaying Toppo because he took damage from Goku's warp Kameha in the exhibition.

For some reason they avoided showing Kale going full ham against any really strong opponents. Caulifla stopped her from killing Cabba She broke off from Goku when her ki surged, beat up a fodder Pride Trooper and taken by surprise by Jiren (and fully recovered in like 30-40 seconds). Then she beat up some fodder Pride Troopers again, did not fight Goku as Berserk the second time, and the fight with SSG Goku was also cut short. That makes it really hard to get a good read on her and Goku makes a terrible benchmark since he holds back against weaker opponents and fights stronger opponents at a disadvantage (Frieza and Black) to test himself.

[Miracles]

Limit Breaker God Goku? When was this ever a thing? What would suggest a tired Super Saiyan God Goku had far surpassed a full powered Super Saiyan Blue over the sake of a few minutes time.

It also wasn't evenly matched at all, he flew straight through her blast completely unfazed. Shin even said he was in a different class from her.

She didn't fight evenly. She was clearly performing better than Caulifla but she was still losing and if she was even she would have had an advantage since Caulifla was helping her. Again, as we saw with Tupper, just because you are stronger than someone doesn't mean you can break out of their grip. That is a fighting technique that has been shown to allow you to "punch above your weight class" so to speak. Had Kale actually been stronger than Goku, then when Jiren one shot her then Goku would have been surprised and intimidated by this. Instead, he doesn't bat an eye and challenges Jiren afterwards anyway. This is in addition to the correct translations describing Goku's power increase from SSJ2 -> SSB being "a little." He doesn't have to get serious in Blue, he just has to use something stronger than SSJ2, SSJ3 or SSG would also do the job as we see later in the tournament.

SSG->SSB is a 50x difference, based on the description and what we see in the fight with Kefla. There is absolutely no way in hell Goku got more than 50x stronger in this time. His SSG performed better than his SSB did prior because of the fact that he was suppressed in the first bout.

I don't know why you keep saying he was keeping up with Jiren. He had Vegeta's help and they were still ultimately at a disadvantage even if they were performing better than he was in 109. Again,there is no confusion. The "limit breaking state" that you keep referring to is clearly the narrator referring to the Kaioken. (As seen in the Zen Exhbition match with Toppo) I am not "trying" to mix the two in any way other than what is clearly stated. The phrase was used to describe the same thing in both cases.

Either way, in the anime SSBKK is Goku's full power. In the manga CSSB is Goku's full-power. In the anime, Kefla was relative to his full-power state of SSBKK and in the manga Kale was relative to his full-power state of CSSB. (In the anime Kale was only relative to Goku's SSG form, so she is dramatically weaker in that medium) Therefore:

SSJ Kale(manga)~SSJ Kefla(anime)

Goku was completely pwned in the special using KKX20 and later he is able to fight just as good as a limit breaker Vegeta against a stronger Jiren? Yet you say when the narrator states "their limit breaking power," it's the same as Goku saying KK is used to go above Blue's limits against Toppo? Then how is he surviving a much more powered up Jiren from the special? He should of been one hit KO'd and never kept up with a limit breaking Vegeta. Since he was lol pwned in the special with his "beyond his limits" KK? It's obvious the narrator is talking about Goku's overall strength improving and is demonstrated by action. The fanfic doesn't match the story.

Kale fought evenly with SSJg Goku. Going through a ki blast didn't determine SSJG Goku as the winner nor give him the advantage they still fought evenly. This was a stronger Goku stated fact by Caulifla who said his SSJ2 is different from before. Stated fact when elder Kai stated Goku "exerts power beyond his limits." This was just after the bench got through stating he was recovering his stamina back as he fought. Hence why he was able to use the transformations. Not to mention the fact that Goku himself even stated power was "boiling up inside him" as he was fighting Caulfla. Goku was recovering stamina and getting stronger as the fight went on as stated and shown.

So you can deny all these facts, Kale still dominated Blue Goku who was not holding back cause that was never stated or shown. That is your fanfic. Kale walked through his Kame without a scratch and then grabbed him and Goku struggled to try to get out and could not. Gohan confirmed it when he was going to try and help him. Don't falsely compare this situation to Tupper's grab cause it was stated Goku was "caught off guard." Not the same with Kale, whose power Jiren noticed during his meditation, whom Blue Vegeta and Toppo noticed again! All these blue level and more fighters acknowledging her more than once. This is more proof that she is at that level. All the evidence is against you, all you got is your inner explanations trying to cover up Kale's status.

Kale is blue level, shown in anime and manga.

[Bullza]

Then how is he surviving a much more powered up Jiren from the special? He should of been one hit KO'd and never kept up with a limit breaking Vegeta. Since he was lol pwned in the special with his "beyond his limits" KK? It's obvious the narrator is talking about Goku's overall strength improving and is demonstrated by action.

When Goku first used the Kaioken x20 was when Jiren used the eye glare attack. Goku had never seen that attack before and was caught off guard by it so he was defeated pretty much immediately.

Even just Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta did better than that and lasted longer and that was before his Limit Breaker. Infact he actually saw through his attack and smacked Jiren in the gut.

So was Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at the start of the Tournament far stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 at the start of the Tournament?

Kale fought evenly with SSJg Goku.

It was that one sided they outright said he was in a different class. What's even about that?

[PFM18]

Then how is he surviving a much more powered up Jiren from the special? He should of been one hit KO'd and never kept up with a limit breaking Vegeta. Since he was lol pwned in the special with his "beyond his limits" KK? It's obvious the narrator is talking about Goku's overall strength improving and is demonstrated by action.

When Goku first used the Kaioken x20 was when Jiren used the eye glare attack. Goku had never seen that attack before and was caught off guard by it so he was defeated pretty much immediately.

Even just Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta did better than that and lasted longer and that was before his Limit Breaker. Infact he actually saw through his attack and smacked Jiren in the gut.

So was Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at the start of the Tournament far stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 at the start of the Tournament?

Kale fought evenly with SSJg Goku.

It was that one sided they outright said he was in a different class. What's even about that?

I do agree with the general premise of what you are saying, but to be fair the Jiren that got punched in the gut by Vegeta is the weakest iteration of Vegeta that we have seen. As stated by Vegeta in that episode that he was "stronger and faster" when he fought Goku previously. So I mean Jiren ep 109/110>Jiren ep 122

[Miracles]

When Goku first used the Kaioken x20 was when Jiren used the eye glare attack. Goku had never seen that attack before and was caught off guard by it so he was defeated pretty much immediately.

Even just Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta did better than that and lasted longer and that was before his Limit Breaker. Infact he actually saw through his attack and smacked Jiren in the gut.

So was Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at the start of the Tournament far stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 at the start of the Tournament?

It was that one sided they outright said he was in a different class. What's even about that?

They said Goku was in a different class after elder Kai stated "Goku exerts power beyond his limits.." Which proves my point even more that this Goku was a stronger Goku Kale fought evenly with. Cause right after the different class statement Kale STILL repelled a powered up energy blast from red Goku. Kale STILL wanted to fight after Caulifla got put down by one of the blasts Goku shot.

Vegeta even admitted to Jiren that he was faster and stronger against Goku. So Jiren was sandbagging against him and Vegeta couldn't even make Jiren flinch and gets easily konkced to the ground and would of been ki blasted out of the TOP until Goku saved him. This is the only reason why vegeta was able to read Jiren's flurry of punches too, only due to Jiren using the attack on Goku. So in no point in time was Vegeta ever stronger than Goku before the TOP.

[Bullza]

They said Goku was in a different class after elder Kai stated "Goku exerts power beyond his limits.." Which proves my point even more that this Goku was a stronger Goku Kale fought evenly with. Cause right after the different class statement Kale STILL repelled a powered up energy blast from red Goku. Kale STILL wanted to fight after Caulifla got put down by one of the blasts Goku shot.

Well of course he exerts power beyond his limits but what in that suggests that a tired Super Saiyan Goku is now enormously more powerful than full power Super Saiyan Blue Goku from 5 minutes ago?

Kale exerted a lot of effort to repel that Ki Blast. She's certainly far stronger than Caulifla but even after her massive power boost she was inferior to Super Saiyan God Goku clearly. If not for the fusion then he had those two beat without that much effort.

Vegeta even admitted to Jiren that he was faster and stronger against Goku. So Jiren was sandbagging against him and Vegeta couldn't even make Jiren flinch and gets easily konkced to the ground and would of been ki blasted out of the TOP until Goku saved him. This is the only reason why vegeta was able to read Jiren's flurry of punches too, only due to Jiren using the attack on Goku. So in no point in time was Vegeta ever stronger than Goku before the TOP.

Yeah but that could have just been Ultra Instinct Goku or when he exerted more effort to stop the Spirit Bomb.

Jiren defeated the Kaioken x20 Goku instantly yet did no such thing against Vegeta even after he fired a large blast at him Vegeta was able to escape from it. Meanwhile Kale was done in by a much smaller blast when he hadn't even powered up at all.

[Koitsukai]

Most Suppressed version of Jiren one-shots Kale and puts her to sleep.
Powered up Jiren after cleaning the floor with SS Blue Goku, at very, very close range, shoots his trademark ki blast to a still quacking SS Blue, but Goku gets up to get knock down again like in that Chumbawamba song, he doesn't go to sleep or needs special care by a teammate. He gets up immediately, not a few episodes later like Kale did.

But SS Blue Goku and Kale are at the same level... Ok.

[Miracles]

Well of course he exerts power beyond his limits but what in that suggests that a tired Super Saiyan Goku is now enormously more powerful than full power Super Saiyan Blue Goku from 5 minutes ago?

Kale exerted a lot of effort to repel that Ki Blast. She's certainly far stronger than Caulifla but even after her massive power boost she was inferior to Super Saiyan God Goku clearly. If not for the fusion then he had those two beat without that much effort.

Yeah but that could have just been Ultra Instinct Goku or when he exerted more effort to stop the Spirit Bomb.

Jiren defeated the Kaioken x20 Goku instantly yet did no such thing against Vegeta even after he fired a large blast at him Vegeta was able to escape from it. Meanwhile Kale was done in by a much smaller blast when he hadn't even powered up at all.

Vegeta couldn't even move Jiren with his punches, then gets pwned in TWO hits and was about to get blasted until Goku saved him. Then Vegeta admits Jiren was "faster and stronger against Kakarot.' Which means it was the entire fight against Goku the first time cause a) Goku tells Jiren it's "time for round 2" but Vegeta interrupts and b) Jiren not once powered up again to face UI Goku. As for the spirit bomb clash? lol you are reaching, that's only the conclusion of the battle. Then Vegeta got quick combo'd and then blasted, which he struggled with, trying to stay in the ring. This is not up for debate the canon has spoken and shown Goku the superior easily.

A stronger Red Goku never beat Kale, he only beat Caulifla. Fact is, Kale was ready for more when she saved Caulifla. But this is beside the point, all truth points to Kale being blue level since she was able to battle blue Goku before Jiren and battle a stronger red Goku later.

Most Suppressed version of Jiren one-shots Kale and puts her to sleep.
Powered up Jiren after cleaning the floor with SS Blue Goku, at very, very close range, shoots his trademark ki blast to a still quacking SS Blue, but Goku gets up to get knock down again like in that Chumbawamba song, he doesn't go to sleep or needs special care by a teammate. He gets up immediately, not a few episodes later like Kale did.

But SS Blue Goku and Kale are at the same level... Ok.

You need to factor in Kaioken somewhere in your paragraph.

[PFM18]

Most Suppressed version of Jiren one-shots Kale and puts her to sleep.
Powered up Jiren after cleaning the floor with SS Blue Goku, at very, very close range, shoots his trademark ki blast to a still quacking SS Blue, but Goku gets up to get knock down again like in that Chumbawamba song, he doesn't go to sleep or needs special care by a teammate. He gets up immediately, not a few episodes later like Kale did.

But SS Blue Goku and Kale are at the same level... Ok.

Yeah some people are just confused. Not sure how else to put it.

[Bullza]

Vegeta couldn't even move Jiren with his punches, then gets pwned in TWO hits and was about to get blasted until Goku saved him. Then Vegeta admits Jiren was "faster and stronger against Kakarot.

He hit him hard in the gut which caused him to have that shocked look on his face. Jiren also didn't power up when he defeated Kale with that football sized Ki blast. Meanwhile Jiren fired a significantly larger energy wave at Vegeta and he threw it off of himself and kept on fighting.

A stronger Red Goku never beat Kale, he only beat Caulifla

He beat them both and blasted both off the arena at the same time. The only reason they were saved was because of the fusion.

[Dreamer]

He beat them both and blasted both off the arena at the same time. The only reason they were saved was because of the fusion.

The bold confuses me. I've seen many users say Goku beat them both, but the episode has shown only (SS2) Caulifa being beaten due to their being power gap between her and SSG Goku. Kale was never beaten nor hurt for that matter. Other than Goku beating them in the sense of ringing them out. At what part of the episode was SSG Goku shown beating Kale for instance? The only thing Goku had going for him was that he had more of the rhythm of the fight, but strictly looking closely at the fight in terms of power there wasn't really any difference between SSG Goku and Kale as both of their exchanges was getting them nowhere.

It should be noted Kale implied she could keep on fighting, but Caulifa couldn't and still wanted to keep on fighting and ordered Kale to use the potara earrings; this was before SSG Goku blasted parts of the arena off to ring them out.

[Ki Breaker]

This new theory caught my attention, it says since Goku was completely outta gas from fighting Jiren, the transformations he made against the two Saiyan girls weren't representation of the power they are supposed to represent, aka, take SS for instance and assume 50x multiplier is a thing, fresh Goku with base of say 100 will be representing 50x100 but this is Goku with power of say 2, so this SS is representation of only 50x2..
Going along with this logic, neither SSB or SSG were at a power we think of when we think of those forms, so all in all Saiyan girls faught a very inferior version of the transformations and neither they not their fusion is as strong as we might have believed..

Don't know if this is already a widespread believe, but it's a pretty solid theory overall

[ankokudaishogun]

to be fair, it was explicitly stated.

In the begin Goku was weaker but was out-SKILLING them while recovering stamina(...somehow)

[Miracles]

He hit him hard in the gut which caused him to have that shocked look on his face. Jiren also didn't power up when he defeated Kale with that football sized Ki blast. Meanwhile Jiren fired a significantly larger energy wave at Vegeta and he threw it off of himself and kept on fighting.

He beat them both and blasted both off the arena at the same time. The only reason they were saved was because of the fusion.

Even though this is beside the point. Show me where a stronger Goku beat Kale? Caulifla was the one on the floor after being hit by the energy blast.
Vegeta only hit jiren cause he was sandbagging against him. Please stop ignoring this part. Even the punch didn't phase him.He was only shocked that he dodged his punches.

[lord turbo]

Um you realize there are probably more dragon ball continuities than Halloween continuities right? lmao

Db, dbz, and dbs
Db, dbz, and gt

I count only two...Keep in mind I'm not counting video games.

Are you talking about Trunks? He was around Buu saga tier when he fought Dabura, he was much stronger when he fought Goku. His ssj2 form was comparable to post Whis training ssj3 Goku.

Yes, I am, holding back SS2 Trunks (who's stated slightly superior to post Whis training SS2 Goku) was stated stronger than Kid Gohan, the same thing Majin Vegeta said about SS2 Goku (Buu Saga). This shows post whis training SSJ2 Goku was more or less not that much different from his Buu Saga self, the same would apply to his SSJ form which SSJ Caulifla either rivals or is inferior to it when scaled to SS Cabba who is shown a step or so below U6T SS Vegeta (manga version).

That only works if SSB is less than a 2x multiplier from his base, which is ridiculous.

It works for the films since the god power up changed how his SS multiplier worked beforehand.

And if ssj Goku pushed Beerus to 70%, he could have went ssj3 to surpass him, but he didn't because he couldn't.

Turning SS3 would have done nothing since turning SS did nothing. Remember, base Goku and SS were identical in power from fighting Beerus, so much Goku didn't notice a slight change from losing SSG, to base, then back to SS during the same fight where its stated he retained the same level of SSG despite losing the form itself since he absorbed it into his being.

During the Beerus fight Goku retained some of the SSG power and was able to fight off Beerus not even realizing his power changed, and then he actually became a SSG again at the end of the fight for a split second.

Incorrect, its flat out stated he retained all of it not some of it in the original Japanese version (the same line and events are repeated in the anime version as well).

[Bullza]

Even though this is beside the point. Show me where a stronger Goku beat Kale? Caulifla was the one on the floor after being hit by the energy blast.

And then immediately afterward Goku fired a Kamehameha at the two of them, breaking off the platform and sending both out to be eliminated. They were saved merely by fusing.

Vegeta only hit jiren cause he was sandbagging against him. Please stop ignoring this part. Even the punch didn't phase him.He was only shocked that he dodged his punches.

You're ignoring the main point here in that Jiren took out Kale with a tiny blast and didn't take out Vegeta with a larger energy wave. Why?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He hit him hard in the gut which caused him to have that shocked look on his face. Jiren also didn't power up when he defeated Kale with that football sized Ki blast. Meanwhile Jiren fired a significantly larger energy wave at Vegeta and he threw it off of himself and kept on fighting.

He beat them both and blasted both off the arena at the same time. The only reason they were saved was because of the fusion.

Even though this is beside the point. Show me where a stronger Goku beat Kale? Caulifla was the one on the floor after being hit by the energy blast.
Vegeta only hit jiren cause he was sandbagging against him. Please stop ignoring this part. Even the punch didn't phase him.He was only shocked that he dodged his punches.

A little bit inaccurate on the last point, there.

The dialogue from Shin states that Vegeta managed to pierce Jiren's extremely heavy energy.

[dragon boss z]

Db, dbz, and dbs
Db, dbz, and gt
I count only two...Keep in mind I'm not counting video games.

Ok, not counting video games.
dragon ball manga, BOG, RoF
dragon ball minus, jaco manga, dragon ball manga, dragon ball super manga
dargon ball manga, dragon ball super anime
Bardock father of Goku, dragon ball anime, dragon ball z, future Trunks special, dragon ball GT, (movies can be included in this canon as well)
dragon ball anime, dragon ball z, future Trunks special, dragon ball super
dragon ball anime, dragon ball kai, dragon ball super

I could actually do more tbh.

Yes, I am, holding back SS2 Trunks (who's stated slightly superior to post Whis training SS2 Goku) was stated stronger than Kid Gohan, the same thing Majin Vegeta said about SS2 Goku (Buu Saga). This shows post whis training SSJ2 Goku was more or less not that much different from his Buu Saga self, the same would apply to his SSJ form which SSJ Caulifla either rivals or is inferior to it when scaled to SS Cabba who is shown a step or so below U6T SS Vegeta (manga version).

The Trunks that fought Dabura was buu saga tier, but the one that fought Goku was post Black fighting Trunks, so he should be stronger than Buu saga tier. But I do agree that current saiyans aren't that much stronger than Buu saga saiyans. By my numbers I would say maybe around 10x stronger.
Lets look at it this way. Ssj Caulifla was a bit stronger than Frieza, but still in the same tier imo. So about how namek Goku compared to 100% Frieza on Namek. Buu saga base Goku was weaker than namek Frieza, lets highball and say his power level was 100 million.
So after Frieza's training he got a lot stronger, I think it would be a low ball to say Frieza only got 10x stronger. Now lets make it even more of a lowball and say Frieza was only using 50% of his power on Caulifla since he wasn't buff. That would put current saiyans at least 5x stronger than Buu saga saiyans. But since I was lowballing I think it may be more like 10x.

It works for the films since the god power up changed how his SS multiplier worked beforehand.

But even if it can work, it was clearly presented as more than a 2x boost. It would at least be a 5 to 10x boost imo. If SSG Goku is a 6 and SSB Goku a 7, then I would say base RoF Goku would be like a 1 or 2. If he went ssj3 he might be able to raise his power up to 5 or something.

Turning SS3 would have done nothing since turning SS did nothing. Remember, base Goku and SS were identical in power from fighting Beerus, so much Goku didn't notice a slight change from losing SSG, to base, then back to SS during the same fight where its stated he retained the same level of SSG despite losing the form itself since he absorbed it into his being.

Ok if you agree he can't surpass that power I think our opinions aren't far off. The biggest reason I don't like people saying, "his base is SSG level now" is because they then add on the ssj multipliers.

Incorrect, its flat out stated he retained all of it not some of it in the original Japanese version (the same line and events are repeated in the anime version as well).

I just looked at the subs of the movie and he said "you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why even though you've returned to normal you haven't powered down all that much".
So according to those subs he did power down a bit, and a few seconds later Goku became a SSG again, meaning he may have had some left over god power in him as well.
But I don't think the entire thing was temporary. Like Beerus said, Goku has reached an entirely new level, a level of gods. I just don't think he is always at the level of SSG. SSB was him accessing that power again and mixing it with ssj.

[Miracles]

And then immediately afterward Goku fired a Kamehameha at the two of them, breaking off the platform and sending both out to be eliminated. They were saved merely by fusing.
You're ignoring the main point here in that Jiren took out Kale with a tiny blast and didn't take out Vegeta with a larger energy wave. Why?

Jiren took kale out when she was distracted going after Caulifla. And the blast was big cause it enveloped Kale's body. Then Jiren detonated the energy. It was Jiren's "it's over" finishing move [he also used on Goku and Hit] one of his best.

You still didn't show me where Goku physically put Kale out of commission like he did Caulifla? Kale WILLINGLY stayed there so she could fuse with Caulifla not because Goku forced her. Again this is besides the point. I already proved Kale fought a stronger Goku and that's all that matters.

The dialogue from Shin states that Vegeta managed to pierce Jiren's extremely heavy energy.

Yeah Vegeta did.