Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:56 am

dragon boss z wrote: But even if it can work, it was clearly presented as more than a 2x boost.
The film never really presented it as more than a two-times boost though, and in fact, several completely different supplementary materials - from official artbooks to games to Toyotaro's very own tie-in manga - specifically conveyed the idea that Goku possessed the power of Super Saiyan God in base. If Resurrection 'F' borrows from the 6-10-15 scale that Toriyama previously mentioned, Super Saiyan Blue couldn't have been much more than a 7 or maybe an 8 at most, which isn't that dramatic of a boost. Remember that at the time, SSGSS was officially considered to be the Super Saiyan version of that godly base state, which would imply that the vanilla Super Saiyan forms were indeed intended to be retired initially.

In a way, the Super manga emphasizes this idea even further: Super Saiyan Blue was clearly just barely stronger than Super Saiyan God before its completion. The only difference here is that Goku didn't lose or absorb the form into his base and instead kept it as a separate transformation.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2257
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:01 am

You know, after finding that tidbit about Vegeta piercing Jiren's heavy energy, I think this helps support the notion of my dynamic combat mentality.

A solid blow that an opponent is unable to properly guard against or brace for can pierce through their defenses, varying depending on the weight of their energy and the kind of body they have. Whilst the standard definition of "power level" can apply, it isn't a fully foolproof concept anymore, at least based on the Tournament of Power.

ankokudaishogun
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 am

Marlowe89 wrote: In a way, the Super manga emphasizes this idea even further: Super Saiyan Blue was clearly just barely stronger than Super Saiyan God before its completion. The only difference here is that Goku didn't lose or absorb the form into his base and instead kept it as a separate transformation.
The manga straight shows God is close to Blue, but Blue has a "burst" phase where it's much stronger than God.
It's the whole point of Vegeta switching between God and Blue against Zamasu: else Vegeta wouldn't be able to react and move fast enough to hit Zamasu and avoid being hit in turn if God wasn't "similar enough" to Blue, then he would turn Blue one instant to deal full-power blows before switching back to God, rinse and repeat.

And avoiding the "burst" power to "escape" therefore remaining always at the max power is the reasoning behind Complete Blue.
(headcanon: Complete Blue is weaker than Burst Phase Blue, but it's stable and still stronger than Normal Blue, resulting in being much more effective. Think Grade-4: it's weaker than Grade-3, but much more effective.)

In the anime, the "Burst Phase Power All Time" of Complete Blue is reached by causing a "Burst Phase that doesn't end" with Kaiohken.
Now lets make it even more of a lowball and say Frieza was only using 50% of his power on Caulifla since he wasn't buff.
Personally, I headcanon his RoF training resulted in being able to use 100% without having to go buff. It would explain him never using it.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:20 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:You know, after finding that tidbit about Vegeta piercing Jiren's heavy energy, I think this helps support the notion of my dynamic combat mentality.

A solid blow that an opponent is unable to properly guard against or brace for can pierce through their defenses, varying depending on the weight of their energy and the kind of body they have. Whilst the standard definition of "power level" can apply, it isn't a fully foolproof concept anymore, at least based on the Tournament of Power.
Whilst that's not a bad concept, I think that people also tend to underestimate the ambiguity of Jiren's suppressed strength. We never truly know how much of his power he's using at any given moment, and Vegeta has outright suggested that he sometimes suppresses himself even more than he could have been just a moment ago. That's why I don't typically buy into certain posters trying to authoritatively paint how strong/restrained he's supposed to be in a specific episode, since it's all just kind of a gray area in any case. The guy just sandbags a lot.
ankokudaishogun wrote: The manga straight shows God is close to Blue, but Blue has a "burst" phase where it's much stronger than God.
It's the whole point of Vegeta switching between God and Blue against Zamasu: else Vegeta wouldn't be able to react and move fast enough to hit Zamasu and avoid being hit in turn if God wasn't "similar enough" to Blue, then he would turn Blue one instant to deal full-power blows before switching back to God, rinse and repeat.

And avoiding the "burst" power to "escape" therefore remaining always at the max power is the reasoning behind Complete Blue.
(headcanon: Complete Blue is weaker than Burst Phase Blue, but it's stable and still stronger than Normal Blue, resulting in being much more effective. Think Grade-4: it's weaker than Grade-3, but much more effective.)
That's pretty much how Blue works in the manga, true - my only caveat here is that I wouldn't claim Complete Blue is weaker than the "explosion of power" that's released in an instant when the transformation is first triggered, since both are referred to as Blue at 100% power - although my overall point was really just to illustrate that the manga placing God and (incomplete) Blue close to each other in strength largely reflects how closely the film appears to place Saiyan Beyond God and Blue, assuming that the 6-10-15 scale still applies.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:21 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote: But even if it can work, it was clearly presented as more than a 2x boost.
The film never really presented it as more than a two-times boost though, and in fact, several completely different supplementary materials - from official artbooks to games to Toyotaro's very own tie-in manga - specifically conveyed the idea that Goku possessed the power of Super Saiyan God in base. If Resurrection 'F' borrows from the 6-10-15 scale that Toriyama previously mentioned, Super Saiyan Blue couldn't have been much more than a 7 or maybe an 8 at most, which isn't that dramatic of a boost. Remember that at the time, SSGSS was officially considered to be the Super Saiyan version of that godly base state, which would imply that the vanilla Super Saiyan forms were indeed intended to be retired initially.

In a way, the Super manga emphasizes this idea even further: Super Saiyan Blue was clearly just barely stronger than Super Saiyan God before its completion. The only difference here is that Goku didn't lose or absorb the form into his base and instead kept it as a separate transformation.
The power of a super saiyan god doesn't necessarily mean all of the power, and just because we see SSG Goku behind base Goku punching in the RoF manga doesn't mean they are equal, just like when Goku punched through King Piccolo you could see the Oozaru behind him. It just just means they have a power source they are drawing from.

The Super anime goes further showing final form Frieza try and attack SSB Goku, but he was clearly outclassed, and it is highly likely the same would have happened in the movie. Also it's not only saying that SSB is less than a 2x transformation, but that Golden Frieza is only about a 2x boost as well.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Now lets make it even more of a lowball and say Frieza was only using 50% of his power on Caulifla since he wasn't buff.
Personally, I headcanon his RoF training resulted in being able to use 100% without having to go buff. It would explain him never using it.
In the anime he did go buff in the ToP though. It's possible that is the case in the movie and manga version though. Also that's why I called it a lowball.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2257
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:32 am

I think I'll add some more to the SSB anime vs manga debate.

During the fight between Hit, Goku, Dyspo, and Kunchi, Kunchi felt confident that his explosive whips would deter SSG Goku at risk of hurting himself trying to get to the Pride Trooper, to which Goku responds by simply going SSB and brute-forcing through the whips without any damage.

As well, despite SSG being slightly outmatched by base Kefla, as a SSB, Goku's able to briefly tangle with SS Kefla, though he does need Kaioken later on. There's also the fact that in their first fight, Goku's only able to have a real fight with Jiren as a SSB; SSG only got him to use his finger.

Additionally, Golden Freeza is faster than Dyspo in a straight fight, and given how he's equal to SSB Goku, presumably he could also do this provided he decided to stay in the form in his fight with Dyspo.

The way I see it, when using the full extent of SSB's power, the anime's version of the form is relatively equal to the manga's Complete SSB form.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:49 am

dragon boss z wrote: The power of a super saiyan god doesn't necessarily mean all of the power, and just because we see SSG Goku behind base Goku punching in the RoF manga doesn't mean they are equal, just like when Goku punched through King Piccolo you could see the Oozaru behind him. It just just means they have a power source they are drawing from.
Don't know about that. If Goku and Vegeta are constantly emphasized to be capable of "using the power of Super Saiyan God without changing form" in materials for the movie, I feel that there's little point in highlighting that fact if they aren't tapping into at least most of its strength, if not all of it.

Either way, my point was that the manga provides a perfectly viable precedent to assert that Blue doesn't necessarily have to be a significant upgrade from God, at least initially. Super Saiyan God and Saiyan Beyond God can be interchangeable depending on the medium.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: The way I see it, when using the full extent of SSB's power, the anime's version of the form is relatively equal to the manga's Complete SSB form.
It'd have to be. In addition to the other pieces of (frankly overwhelming) evidence, this is practically spelled out during the Future Trunks arc, where Goku flat-out overpowers Fused Zamasu in the anime using his full strength. The only difference is how that power is utilized and conceived in each medium -- in the anime, it crippled his arms at the time, whereas in the manga he learned to use it at a more consistent rate because its power is constantly draining in that version.

Moreover, the complete version of Blue straight-up replaces the incomplete version by the manga's Universe Survival arc. It is, for all intents and purposes, its true form.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lord turbo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:29 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:58 am

dragon boss z wrote:Ok, not counting video games.
dragon ball manga, BOG, RoF
dragon ball minus, jaco manga, dragon ball manga, dragon ball super manga
dargon ball manga, dragon ball super anime
Bardock father of Goku, dragon ball anime, dragon ball z, future Trunks special, dragon ball GT, (movies can be included in this canon as well)
dragon ball anime, dragon ball z, future Trunks special, dragon ball super
dragon ball anime, dragon ball kai, dragon ball super

I could actually do more tbh.
I'll give you db, dbz, and BoG & RoF films.
Db Minus, Jaco fall i the same continuity as "db, dbz, and dbz that I listed earlier. Bardock:FoG, and Future Trunks special fall in the same continuity of "Db, dbz, and GT" that I listed earlier and DB Kai is not a new continuity, just a shorten version of DBZ with most thebfat (filler) trimmed.

So really, you have at best only 3 continuities.
dragon boss z wrote:The Trunks that fought Dabura was buu saga tier, but the one that fought Goku was post Black fighting Trunks, so he should be stronger than Buu saga tier. But I do agree that current saiyans aren't that much stronger than Buu saga saiyans. By my numbers I would say maybe around 10x stronger.
I'm aware of the Trunks that fought Dabura, what I am saying is that the Trunks that fought Goku (the one that was holding back to be slightly superior to full power SS2 Goku (post Whis training) was stated only stronger than Kid Gohan, the same thing Majin Vegeta said about Buu Saga Goku, making them more or less around similar levels.

Goku turns SS3 (which again, is not that much different from his Buu Saga self) to which Future Trunks matches that level with his full power SS2 so I strongly disagree with your viewpoint. With the exception of Vegeta 's SS2 and god forms and Goku god forms Vegeta and Goku are not that much different from their Buu Saga selves which is where Future Trunks is comparable to, I'm trying to avoid using numbers.
dragon boss z wrote:Lets look at it this way. Ssj Caulifla was a bit stronger than Frieza, but still in the same tier imo
Agreed.
dragon boss z wrote:But even if it can work, it was clearly presented as more than a 2x boost. It would at least be a 5 to 10x boost imo. If SSG Goku is a 6 and SSB Goku a 7, then I would say base RoF Goku would be like a 1 or 2. If he went ssj3 he might be able to raise his power up to 5 or something.
That's seems more of your head-canon having issues with the narrative rather than it not being able to work, there's nothing in the movie that portrays SSB from base as more than double since no actual number or description was used to allude to such. In fact, small gaps in numbers are considered huge gaps in difference, out of Toriyama's own mouth Goku was 60% to Beerus 70%, yet had Goku state the gap between them was humongous. That's Beerus only being about 11.6% stronger than Goku at the time which is similar to previously used number difference between characters in the Dragon Ball franchise.

Fans have had it in their heads the differences need to be 2x, 3x, or even 4x for characters for oneshot each other when Toriyama and similsr mangaka of the battle shonen sub-genre have had much smaller difference such as Yusuke's unrestricted state stomping 80% Toguro easily only for 100% Toguro to easily stomp him in return.

If RoF base Goku is a 5.5 (since he didn't power down much from SSG which is a 6 to Beerus 7 to the point its not noticeable), then its possible for SSB to be an 7.5 and Golden Freeza to be an 8 which still leaves a massive gap between Beerus at 100% and Golden Freeza > SSB Goku
dragon boss z wrote:Ok if you agree he can't surpass that power I think our opinions aren't far off. The biggest reason I don't like people saying, "his base is SSG level now" is because they then add on the ssj multipliers.
For the films, sure, for DBS? Its a different story altogether which is why the multipliers are different post RoF saga compared to previous before.
dragon boss z wrote:I just looked at the subs of the movie and he said "you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why even though you've returned to normal you haven't powered down all that much".
My mistake, you're right.
dragon boss z wrote:So according to those subs he did power down a bit, and a few seconds later Goku became a SSG again, meaning he may have had some left over god power in him as well.
But then Toriyama states Goku absorbed SSG's power into his being which is why he doesn't need to transform into that form to access the same power which conflicts somewhat with what he wrote for the film does it not?
dragon boss z wrote:But I don't think the entire thing was temporary. Like Beerus said, Goku has reached an entirely new level, a level of gods. I just don't think he is always at the level of SSG. SSB was him accessing that power again and mixing it with ssj.
Thing is all official material state Goku was a saiyan with the power of SSG, so when he turns SS it becomes SSB, that's how it worked for the films narrative and even the anime narrative until U6 arc and onward. Obviously somewhere along the lines Toriyama changed his mind about how that worked which is why we got the golden SS1-3 forms back.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:06 pm

Miracles wrote:You still didn't show me where Goku physically put Kale out of commission like he did Caulifla? Kale WILLINGLY stayed there so she could fuse with Caulifla not because Goku forced her. Again this is besides the point. I already proved Kale fought a stronger Goku and that's all that matters.
I didn't say he out her out of commission, he just put her in a losing position where they had no choice but to use fusion in order to overcome Goku.

The two very obviously not equal proven by Goku not being even slightly damaged when he flew through he blast then smacked her flying with a punch. He also overpowered her energy wave with a football sized blast which Kale then struggled with.

There is no proof that in the span of a few minutes a weary Super Saiyan God Goku had comfortably surpassed the slim Kale who was massively powered up from bulky Kale who was so strong that full power Super Saiyan Blue Goku couldn't scratch her with a Kamehameha.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:36 pm

Bullza wrote:There is no proof that in the span of a few minutes a weary Super Saiyan God Goku had comfortably surpassed the slim Kale who was massively powered up from bulky Kale who was so strong that full power Super Saiyan Blue Goku couldn't scratch her with a Kamehameha.
Yeah so the only rational conclusion is that Goku was heavily suppressed against Kale in ep 100.

Especially since the fight with Kefla implies that it is a 50x boost over SSG since Kefla went SSJ and the gap between them stayed the same when he went SSB.(Along with the name of the form and the description of the form) So for this to be possible, Goku would have to have gotten well over 50x stronger and that just isn't implied to be the case.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3241
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:16 pm

Bullza wrote:I didn't say he out her out of commission, he just put her in a losing position where they had no choice but to use fusion in order to overcome Goku.

The two very obviously not equal proven by Goku not being even slightly damaged when he flew through he blast then smacked her flying with a punch. He also overpowered her energy wave with a football sized blast which Kale then struggled with.

There is no proof that in the span of a few minutes a weary Super Saiyan God Goku had comfortably surpassed the slim Kale who was massively powered up from bulky Kale who was so strong that full power Super Saiyan Blue Goku couldn't scratch her with a Kamehameha.
The proof is in the statements and showings. Caulifla her self stated Goku's SSJ2 was not the same from before, Goku himself stated power was "boiling up inside of him" as he battled the girls. Elder Kai stated Goku "really does exert power beyond his limits," The fact that he could fight a stronger Kale in red later when he got pwned by a weaker Kale in Blue is even more factual proof that he got stronger and the statements back that up. Speaking of facts, show me where Goku physically put Kale in a losing position where she had to fuse? She only stopped cause she had to save Caulifla. Even after that she outright was going to continue to fight. Kale too had NO damage AT ALL to her from fighting red Goku. So you are factually wrong again.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:52 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: Don't know about that. If Goku and Vegeta are constantly emphasized to be capable of "using the power of Super Saiyan God without changing form" in materials for the movie, I feel that there's little point in highlighting that fact if they aren't tapping into at least most of its strength, if not all of it.

Either way, my point was that the manga provides a perfectly viable precedent to assert that Blue doesn't necessarily have to be a significant upgrade from God, at least initially. Super Saiyan God and Saiyan Beyond God can be interchangeable depending on the medium.
SSB is really only SSG ki being mixed with ssj ki, so it makes sense the boost isn't overally huge, and even then it seems to be a 2 to 5x boost in the manga.
With base to SSB there are 4 transformations in between them. It seems kind of ridiculous that transforming 5 times would only give you less than a 2x boost. And even in the movie continuity Goku has all the same forms, we just don't see them. And it's not like I'm trying to fit it into my current narrative, when I first saw RoF I always assumed SSB was just a bit stronger than SSG and that SSB was probably around a 10 to 50x boost from his current base.
lord turbo wrote: I'm aware of the Trunks that fought Dabura, what I am saying is that the Trunks that fought Goku (the one that was holding back to be slightly superior to full power SS2 Goku (post Whis training) was stated only stronger than Kid Gohan, the same thing Majin Vegeta said about Buu Saga Goku, making them more or less around similar levels.

Goku turns SS3 (which again, is not that much different from his Buu Saga self) to which Future Trunks matches that level with his full power SS2 so I strongly disagree with your viewpoint. With the exception of Vegeta 's SS2 and god forms and Goku god forms Vegeta and Goku are not that much different from their Buu Saga selves which is where Future Trunks is comparable to, I'm trying to avoid using numbers.
I forgot about Goku saying that about Trunks, but the fact Trunks powered up equivalent to ssj3 after that means he is probably like 5x stronger than ssj3 Gohan was, and he was weaker than ssj Black who was weaker than ssj2 Vegeta.
dragon boss z wrote:Lets look at it this way. Ssj Caulifla was a bit stronger than Frieza, but still in the same tier imo
Agreed
Ok but you ignored the rest of my argument. ToP final form Frieza at the very least should be Buu tier and ssj Caulifla is at least around that level, meaning Goku and Vegeta as well should be at least a few times stronger than Buu saga Saiyans.

That's seems more of your head-canon having issues with the narrative rather than it not being able to work, there's nothing in the movie that portrays SSB from base as more than double since no actual number or description was used to allude to such. In fact, small gaps in numbers are considered huge gaps in difference, out of Toriyama's own mouth Goku was 60% to Beerus 70%, yet had Goku state the gap between them was humongous. That's Beerus only being about 11.6% stronger than Goku at the time which is similar to previously used number difference between characters in the Dragon Ball franchise.

Fans have had it in their heads the differences need to be 2x, 3x, or even 4x for characters for oneshot each other when Toriyama and similsr mangaka of the battle shonen sub-genre have had much smaller difference such as Yusuke's unrestricted state stomping 80% Toguro easily only for 100% Toguro to easily stomp him in return.

If RoF base Goku is a 5.5 (since he didn't power down much from SSG which is a 6 to Beerus 7 to the point its not noticeable), then its possible for SSB to be an 7.5 and Golden Freeza to be an 8 which still leaves a massive gap between Beerus at 100% and Golden Freeza > SSB Goku
While what you are saying is possible it seems far more likely Toriyama intended Golden Frieza and SSB to be more than a 2x boost. I would say the majority of the audience would agree it is more than a 2x boost as well. It being such a small boost just takes the hype away from the form and makes it almost nonsensical. Even a tired Golden Frieza called Vegeta delusional for thinking he could win while in base, and Frieza was significantly weaker then. If base Vegeta was really on the level of SSG or above he would probably be able to outright match a tired Golden Frieza.

But then Toriyama states Goku absorbed SSG's power into his being which is why he doesn't need to transform into that form to access the same power which conflicts somewhat with what he wrote for the film does it not?
But in the next movie he practically goes SSG again, later in the ToP and manga he actually goes SSG again, he says he won't go ssj2 or 3 anymore but he does multiple times, etc.

Toriyama just makes things up as he goes along. In RoF Frieza said he would reach a power level of 1.3 million and something tells me that number came from Toriyama himself considering I doubt Toei would put in a definite number unless Toriyama gave it to them. And he also have the numbers for BoG so him giving him the numbers in RoF makes sense considering he was even more involved in that one.
Thing is all official material state Goku was a saiyan with the power of SSG, so when he turns SS it becomes SSB, that's how it worked for the films narrative and even the anime narrative until U6 arc and onward. Obviously somewhere along the lines Toriyama changed his mind about how that worked which is why we got the golden SS1-3 forms back.
We can't always take guides as facts. And like I said it doesn't mean he has all of the power of a SSG.
My whole point was if we ignore all material besides the movie, if you read the BoG arc in the manga, watch the RoF movie, then read the rest of the DBS manga, I don't think there will be any noticeable continuity errors.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:23 pm

dragon boss z wrote:SSB is really only SSG ki being mixed with ssj ki, so it makes sense the boost isn't overally huge, and even then it seems to be a 2 to 5x boost in the manga.
I concur. During the Universe 6 Tournament, Super Saiyan God was explicitly said to be stronger than an exhausted version of Super Saiyan Blue that was around 10% of Blue's full power, so while the gap between a fully powered God and a fully powered Blue is significant, I don't see it being more than a two-fold to five-fold increase at most. If anything, this is further corroborated in the anime, where Super Saiyan Kefla was implied to be stronger than Kaioken Blue Goku.

Thus if Goku theoretically comes to harbor this level of strength in his base state, the gap can't between them in the film can't be any larger than it would be in the manga.
dragon boss z wrote:And even in the movie continuity Goku has all the same forms, we just don't see them.
That's where we disagree. If Blue was specifically said to be the Super Saiyan version of "Saiyan Beyond God" (according to both the supplementary materials and Goku's own description of it) then the idea of him still having access to the other forms would make that statement both false and redundant. The intention is that SSGSS was originally meant to supersede those forms. The only alternative is the possibility that Goku had access to two different bases, which is strongly unlikely at this juncture.

I'd still maintain that the safest assumption - at least based on available evidence - is that the Base-SSB hierarchy emphasized in the original RoF movie was rewritten to encompass Base-SS-SS2-SS3-SSG-SSB by Toei, Toyotaro, Toriyama, or possibly all three parties.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:36 pm

Miracles wrote:The proof is in the statements and showings. Caulifla her self stated Goku's SSJ2 was not the same from before, Goku himself stated power was "boiling up inside of him" as he battled the girls. Elder Kai stated Goku "really does exert power beyond his limits," The fact that he could fight a stronger Kale in red later when he got pwned by a weaker Kale in Blue is even more factual proof that he got stronger and the statements back that up.
That's not proof of anything. She wasn't necessarily comparing Goku's Super Saiyan 2 power to his previous Super Saiyan 2 power, it was more likely a comparison to her own power that was losing out. Goku's power boiling up inside of him isn't proof of anything. Elder Kai's comment isn't proof of anything either.

There is nothing to suggest he randomly powered up massively in the same form. Nothing. They never once said directly that'd he'd grown vastly more powerful than before because of a certain circumstance.
Speaking of facts, show me where Goku physically put Kale in a losing position where she had to fuse? She only stopped cause she had to save Caulifla. Even after that she outright was going to continue to fight. Kale too had NO damage AT ALL to her from fighting red Goku. So you are factually wrong again.
When she was falling off of the platform along with Caulifla. If she didn't have the Potara earring then she would have been out. Just because she was able to continue fighting doesn't mean she was outclassed as they specifically said that she was.

If one character says that Goku is in another class from "those two women" then that is not them being equal. That is Goku being in another class as was shown.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:30 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: I concur. During the Universe 6 Tournament, Super Saiyan God was explicitly said to be stronger than an exhausted version of Super Saiyan Blue that was around 10% of Blue's full power, so while the gap between a fully powered God and a fully powered Blue is significant, I don't see it being more than a two-fold to five-fold increase at most. If anything, this is further corroborated in the anime, where Super Saiyan Kefla was implied to be stronger than Kaioken Blue Goku.

Thus if Goku theoretically comes to harbor this level of strength in his base state, the gap can't between them in the film can't be any larger than it would be in the manga.
And I agree a 2 to 5x boost in the movie could work to. But less than a 2x boost is going too far imo.
That's where we disagree. If Blue was specifically said to be the Super Saiyan version of "Saiyan Beyond God" (according to both the supplementary materials and Goku's own description of it) then the idea of him still having access to the other forms would make that statement both false and redundant. The intention is that SSGSS was originally meant to supersede those forms. The only alternative is the possibility that Goku had access to two different bases, which is strongly unlikely at this juncture.

I'd still maintain that the safest assumption - at least based on available evidence - is that the Base-SSB hierarchy emphasized in the original RoF movie was rewritten to encompass Base-SS-SS2-SS3-SSG-SSB by Toei, Toyotaro, Toriyama, or possibly all three parties.
If you are saying the 2 base theory is real, then I agree and saiyan beyond god is above ssj3 and that SSB is maybe a few times stronger than that.

When I first saw the movie, based off the information given (Goku reached a new level and Frieza thought 4 months of training would make him strong enough to beat Goku who beat Buu), I had base Goku and final form Frieza at least around mystic Gohan up to maybe base Vegito but below ssj Vegito.

If I put them all on the scale I would say
pre god ssj3 Goku: .3
mystic Gohan/final form Frieza: .4
ssj2 rage Vegeta/base Vegito/base SBG Goku/Vegeta: .5
ssj Vegito/ssj Goku post god: 1-3
hypothetical ssj3 Vegito and Goku if he went ssj3 after he healed from the Beerus fight: 5
SSG Goku: 6
SSB Goku: 7
G Frieza: 7.5
Beerus 10

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:51 pm

Bullza wrote:There is nothing to suggest he randomly powered up massively in the same form. Nothing. They never once said directly that'd he'd grown vastly more powerful than before because of a certain circumstance.
I'll agree with you on this part. The idea that Goku suddenly became much stronger in Super Saiyan God than he was in Super Saiyan Blue no more than a few moments ago doesn't sound particularly reasonable, nor does it jive with the peanut gallery implying that he was actually a bit weaker at that point because of his exhaustion.
dragon boss z wrote: And I agree a 2 to 5x boost in the movie could work to. But less than a 2x boost is going too far imo.
I'm using the manga's gap between God and incomplete Blue as a reference point, which is probably less than a two-times boost. I feel like that could easily work for Resurrection 'F', which would also keep the 6-10-15 scale intact for the film while ensuring that Saiyan Beyond God accurately fulfills its description.

Otherwise, I think we're mostly agreed. The "2 base theory" is real only in the sense that the writers/Toriyama intended for there to be a god-like base at one point and then retconned it into a normal base later on for Super (specifically the manga and most of the anime), presumably to allow for all the other Super Saiyan forms within Goku's repertoire to continue existing.

User avatar
lord turbo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 290
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:29 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:35 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I forgot about Goku saying that about Trunks, but the fact Trunks powered up equivalent to ssj3 after that means he is probably like 5x stronger than ssj3 Gohan was, and he was weaker than ssj Black who was weaker than ssj2 Vegeta.
It just means Future Trunks SS2 boost is far greater than Goku's SS2 boost to make it equal to his SS3 and Vegeta's SS2 boost is far beyond even Trunks' SS2 boost since SS2 Vegeta is much superior to SS Black who greatly exceeds SS2 Trunks.
dragon boss z wrote:Ok but you ignored the rest of my argument.
Because I didn't agree with it and I doubt we will change each other's mind on the matter which is why I didn't press the issue.
dragon boss z wrote:While what you are saying is possible it seems far more likely Toriyama intended Golden Frieza and SSB to be more than a 2x boost. I would say the majority of the audience would agree it is more than a 2x boost as well.
Again, what you said in bold is just your opinion with no factual proof for it, its just how you feel, not that there isn't anything wrong with the narrative itself.
dragon boss z wrote: Even a tired Golden Frieza called Vegeta delusional for thinking he could win while in base, and Frieza was significantly weaker then. If base Vegeta was really on the level of SSG or above he would probably be able to outright match a tired Golden Frieza.
Considering base Vegeta backhanded Golden Freeza blast on Kuririn to which shocked even Freeza doesn't speak very highly of Freeza's current state. Also, we have no idea how tired or weakened GF was in numbers, any suggestion is just pure conjectre/speculation with nothing concrete to support it.
dragon boss z wrote:But in the next movie he practically goes SSG again, later in the ToP and manga he actually goes SSG again, he says he won't go ssj2 or 3 anymore but he does multiple times, etc.
Goku never practically went SSG in RoF, the ToP and such all happened much later where the rules are much different than what was established in the BoG and RoF film so...
dragon boss z wrote:We can't always take guides as facts. And like I said it doesn't mean he has all of the power of a SSG.
There's absolutely nothing contradictinf the official supplement material for the RoF film so I see little to no reason why I can't take it as fact for those films. The manga tie tin and guides clearly state he can use the power of SSG in his base form so...
dragon boss z wrote:My whole point was if we ignore all material besides the movie, if you read the BoG arc in the manga, watch the RoF movie, then read the rest of the DBS manga, I don't think there will be any noticeable continuity errors.
That's the problem in bold, we can't since your fan idea directly conflicts with the source material, you can't just pick and choose what counts and doesn't since you're not the creator of the series, even still, so what? At the end of the day post Whis training SS2 Goku is still more or less not much different from his Buu Saga self as shown during the Zamasu arc during his match with Future Trunks which takes place way after the RoF and U6T saga so...
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1988
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:51 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: I'm using the manga's gap between God and incomplete Blue as a reference point, which is probably less than a two-times boost. I feel like that could easily work for Resurrection 'F', which would also keep the 6-10-15 scale intact for the film while ensuring that Saiyan Beyond God accurately fulfills its description.
Incomplete blue could be less than 2x SSG, but like I said that is pretty much just SSG with some ssj ki to boost it. It's not like going from base to a god transformation. And everyone could sense base Goku so saiyan beyond god couldn't have been using god ki.
Otherwise, I think we're mostly agreed. The "2 base theory" is real only in the sense that the writers/Toriyama intended for there to be a god-like base at one point and then retconned it into a normal base later on for Super (specifically the manga and most of the anime), presumably to allow for all the other Super Saiyan forms within Goku's repertoire to continue existing.
Ya I agree.
lord turbo wrote: It just means Future Trunks SS2 boost is far greater than Goku's SS2 boost to make it equal to his SS3 and Vegeta's SS2 boost is far beyond even Trunks' SS2 boost since SS2 Vegeta is much superior to SS Black who greatly exceeds SS2 Trunks.
But Goku and Vegeta have always been equals, so either Vegeta kept his rage ssj2 boost he had against Beerus or Goku was holding back on Trunks, as there is no logical reason besides those for ssj2 Vegeta to be stronger than ssj3 Goku.
Because I didn't agree with it and I doubt we will change each other's mind on the matter which is why I didn't press the issue.
But I didn't even use opinions I just used math and direct statements and feats.
namek saga Frieza>buu saga base Goku (statement)
ssj Caulifla>=Top final form Frieza (shown)
ToP Frieza>RoF Frieza (statement)
after training Frieza said he would be able to beat Goku who beat Buu

So if we accept final form Frieza as stronger than Buu in RoF, then ssj Caulifla should be stronger than Buu as well, making her a few times stronger than Buu saga saiyans. It's either that or Frieza was actually weaker than Buu without golden form.
Again, what you said in bold is just your opinion with no factual proof for it, its just how you feel, not that there isn't anything wrong with the narrative itself.
Accept when Frieza went gold it was stated and implied to be a massive power boost. Obviously you could technically say it only made him .5x stronger, but that really doesn't fit in with what is being shown and stated. And while I can't prove it it is definitely highly likely if you asked Toriyama directly if SSB makes Goku more than 2x stronger he would say yes. If you had to bet a large amount of money would you bet on him saying yes or no? I'm pretty sure if you put a large amount of money on that you would also bet on him saying yes.
Considering base Vegeta backhanded Golden Freeza blast on Kuririn to which shocked even Freeza doesn't speak very highly of Freeza's current state. Also, we have no idea how tired or weakened GF was in numbers, any suggestion is just pure conjectre/speculation with nothing concrete to support it.
He blocked a ki blast meant for Krillin, it's not that impressive. I agree it could imply the gap isn't huge, but to say it's less than 2x? That is going to far. SSB was implied to be the new god form at that point, not base, and in the RoF arc (before they retconned Goku being able to go SSG again) Frieza went from being even with base Goku to not being able to touch SSB Goku. Also in the anime version Vegeta was still able to backhand Golden Frieza's ki blast so that pretty much makes that point moot.
Goku never practically went SSG in RoF, the ToP and such all happened much later where the rules are much different than what was established in the BoG and RoF film so...
SSB was him practically going SSG again. At that point SSB was just the new god form that didn't need a ritual. Even right in the movie Goku explains it by saying "lets say I got a taste of something called super saiyan god and now I've learned to tap into it on my own" That practically confirms what I'm saying. Why would he say SSB is him tapping into SSG if it was really his base tapping into SSG?
There's absolutely nothing contradictinf the official supplement material for the RoF film so I see little to no reason why I can't take it as fact for those films. The manga tie tin and guides clearly state he can use the power of SSG in his base form so...
Do you have a link to the actual guide? I would like to see exactly what it says so I can make a proper rebuttal.
That's the problem in bold, we can't since your fan idea directly conflicts with the source material, you can't just pick and choose what counts and doesn't since you're not the creator of the series, even still, so what?
Guides never really count as true canon and can be retconned whenever the writers feel like it. Even the things flat out sated in the original manga get retconned, the potara for example. In Super they decided to make them a temporary fussion for mortals. The Super manga skipped the RoF arc because we already saw it before, which was directly stated by Toyotaro I believe, and the movie itself doesn't actually contradict anything. I'm not saying it's the 100% manga definitive version, I'm saying as of now the RoF movie seems to fit into the manga the best out of all the RoF events shown as of now. Like if someone wanted to read just the manga for dragon ball, I think it would be the proper thing to tell them to read the manga, then read the super manga but watch the RoF movie right before the U6 arc as I don't think anything up to this point fits into it better. For example the anime has Tagoma who is not shown to be in the Super manga. If there was something major powerise he wanted to address it probably would have been shown in the flashbacks, but the flashback were just scenes that looked like they were taken directly from the movie.
At the end of the day post Whis training SS2 Goku is still more or less not much different from his Buu Saga self as shown during the Zamasu arc during his match with Future Trunks which takes place way after the RoF and U6T saga so...
I actually agreed with this up until recently, and I still think it's possible. Frieza only saying that Caulifla was stronger than namek Goku after she went ssj implies her base could still be weaker than ssj namek Goku and Frieza, just like Buu saga base Goku is. The only reason I recently started to believe they might actually be quite a bit stronger is due to ssj Caulifla making ToP Frieza go gold and Kale was even able to beat up on Golden Frieza. To me that is a good indication they could be above buu saga saiyans.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:09 pm

Who's where is advocating for DBS Base Saiyans = Boo Arc Base Saiyans? I know they aren't ultra strong like in the anime, but saying they are still the same is an heresy. Please someone update me on this debate.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:25 am

So may as well. Super Dragon Ball Heroes Episode 1....because they're apparently the same version of characters as those from Dragon Ball Super.

- Goku and Vegeta still can't land a hit on Whis.

- It wasn't in the episode but it was in the intro and also was part of a game opening, shows Base Goku, Vegeta and Trunks fighting evenly.

- SSJB Goku and SSJ4 Goku Xeno are practically equal. I had hoped that Base Goku was going to fight Base Goku: Xeno because the later has also been shown to be far above characters like Kid Buu as should be the case with the main time version so it could have been something of a further confirmation but oh well.

- Fu effortlessly swats away SSJ4 Goku Xeno's attack.

Oh and the newest game intro showed Super Saiyan Blue Vegito using the Kaioken where he's matched with Kanba. He might not use Kaioken in the anime but we'll see.

Post Reply