Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:31 am

PFM18 wrote:As far as the "anime-exclusive transformations" are concerned, there's only one example of this so I wouldn't put too much stock into it.
Quite a few examples on the contrary. I'm not just referring to Saiyans, but the characters in general.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:02 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:As far as the "anime-exclusive transformations" are concerned, there's only one example of this so I wouldn't put too much stock into it.
Quite a few examples on the contrary. I'm not just referring to Saiyans, but the characters in general.
Quite a few examples of anime-exclusive transformations? Like what other than Super Saiyan Rage?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:31 am

Purely off the top of my head:

Mutated Fused Zamasu
Kamikaze Fireballs (base)
Super Ribrianne
Giant Ribrianne
Drugged Basil
Giant Bergamo
Expanded Monna
Raging Battle Mode Katopesla
Whirlwind Speed Mode Katopesla
Ultimate Mode Katopesla

One might counter that some of these aren't technically "transformations" in the same way that Super Saiyan is, but that would be nitpicking over semantics -- the point is that Toyotaro isn't committed to anime-exclusive forms in general, so it's reasonable (if not necessarily guaranteed) to assume that something like Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened wouldn't transpire in the manga either.

Like I said, we'll see. I'm not especially interested in getting caught up in a discussion over hypotheticals, so I'm content to admit that this is speculation on my end for the time being.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:02 pm

Alright whatever. We do just have to wait and see

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:32 pm

dragon boss z wrote:But Goku and Vegeta have always been equals, so either Vegeta kept his rage ssj2 boost he had against Beerus or Goku was holding back on Trunks, as there is no logical reason besides those for ssj2 Vegeta to be stronger than ssj3 Goku.
All forms except SS2 as clearly shown during the Zamasu arc and Vegeta has no rage boost in the DBS manga.

SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > SS2 Future Trunke = SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku.
namek saga Frieza>buu saga base Goku (statement)
Going by statements Base Goku > base kids > Abo and Cado = Freeza (Namek Saga).
ssj Caulifla>=Top final form Frieza (shown)
Okay.
ToP Frieza>RoF Frieza (statement)
after training Frieza said he would be able to beat Goku who beat Buu
Thing is we don't know that since unlike the anime and movie version the manga version waa skipped.
So if we accept final form Frieza as stronger than Buu in RoF, then ssj Caulifla should be stronger than Buu as well, making her a few times stronger than Buu saga saiyans. It's either that or Frieza was actually weaker than Buu without golden form.
That makes no sense considering Zamasu arc SS Vegeta and SS Goku are more or less similar to their Buu Saga selves, last time we saw SS Vegeta he was superior to SS Cabba (during the previous U6 Saga) who SS Caulifla scales to at best making her SS Vegeta/SS Goku (Buu Saga) tier as there is nothing stating Cabba changed in power level from the U6 Saga to the ToP Saga in the manga, this firmly puts FF Freeza around SS Buu Saga tier.
Accept when Frieza went gold it was stated and implied to be a massive power boost.
Again, where is this shown and stated in RoF film?
Obviously you could technically say it only made him .5x stronger, but that really doesn't fit in with what is being shown and stated.
Considering the gap between Goku at 6 to Beerus 7 was stated to he huge which is a between a 16-17% difference I am not really seeing where you are getting Freeza boost being "massive" means its way higher than 2-fold as far as differences in percentage is concerned for the RoF film.
He blocked a ki blast meant for Krillin, it's not that impressive.
I could just as easily say Freeza didn't hold back as he didn't give a damn who it was.
I agree it could imply the gap isn't huge, but to say it's less than 2x?
Again, why? We know canonically for those films and out of Toriyama's own mouth he considers a difference of 16-17% higher than the weaker character to be a humongous (which is synonym with massive, titantic immense, and etc) gap, a 100% (2x) increase by comparison would be considered in a completely different dimension altogether.
That is going to far.
How is that any different from SS Gohan < full power Perfect Cell < SS2 Gohan, a difference of 2-fold that is treated as an other worldly gap in differences?

You're not really saying anything that definitively proves your point. All I'm hearing is "It makes sense in my head," and nothing more.
SSB was him practically going SSG again. At that point SSB was just the new god form that didn't need a ritual.
SSB was just a saiyan that has absorbed the power of SSG in their being in their SS form as mentioned by Goku and further elaborated in official supplement material for the film that supportd that notion, yet you are trying to forcibly make the narrative of the film fit in the canon of the different DBS manga which makes little sense as you are now stating RoF base Goku > Majin Buu = SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku (Zamasu Saga). What happened to Goku's immense boost in base form from RoF to The Zamasu? Did he simply lose it or something?

All official supplement show and state RoF Goku has that power in his normal form, even the series creator stated he absorbed that power into his being which is why he doesn't need to transform into that form itself to use it's power. At this point you're blatantly going up against what was established by the series creator (Toriyama) at the time and everything else that consistently goes with it to which I ask why exactly?
Do you have a link to the actual guide? I would like to see exactly what it says so I can make a proper rebuttal.
Sure, no problem.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:20 pm

dragon boss z wrote:There a few instances that don't make sense, but mostly I think it comes down to every character now being able to fight against most characters and boosts of power mean pretty much nothing.
I can't help but think that this is a huge exaggeration. Future Trunks and 17 had a large boost after 14(!!) years of training and Freeza had the large boost as a result of having enormous potential and having not trained before. Nothing else comes to mind other than maybe Gohan but that isn't anything new.
Goku and Vegeta are saiyans who reached god level, are matched by universe 6 saiyans who didn't know about ssj
Not really Goku and Vegeta in SSB are leaps and bounds stronger than these U6 Saiyans. I don't see how them being extremely strong is really even a bad thing considering they are considered the strongest fighters in their entire Universe.
SSB KKx10 and can't beat the guy who was weaker than his SSB
Yeah but this is only because of Time-Skip hax. Nothing inconsistent about this.
Trunks randomly is able to fight SSB level opponents.
I know this one is probably the worst in the whole series. Although to be fair the explanation that was given was Vegeta's training. Not a good explanation but this boost wasn't entirely random.
Roshi and Krillin are able to fight with a base Goku who is on a completely different level from before
Not only was it implied that Roshi was getting a power boost from that crazy lady that was possessing him, but Goku was probably suppressed. I agree Kururin forcing Goku to go SSJ is ridiculous though.
Piccolo being so weak in RoF, being stomped by Tagoma who was one shot by base Vegeta, but then almost beat Frost who made Goku and Vegeta go ssj.
Nothing indicates Piccolo is particularly weak in RoF. Only that he is weaker than Base Gohan who presumably retained some of the boost from his "Ultimate" state.

Base Vegeta>>>>Piccolo was shown here and never contradicted. Piccolo didn't "almost beat" Frost. Goku told Piccolo he had no chance because of their difference in power. The only reason he can compete at all is because of the Makankosappo being able to allow him to hit way above his weight class so to speak. As we see with Jiren being weakened and being on the level of Base Goku/Base Freeza and Golden Freeza being weakened and as a result Base Vegeta is able to deflect his Ki blast entirely, both of these instances their weakened state must have been at the very most 1/1000th of their max power for these things to be possible. Frost was weakened to the point of barely even being able to stand by the end of his fight with Goku. This is absolutely no indication of Piccolo's strength.
Base Black seemingly being evenly matched with SSB Vegeta
What? all he did was stand there with his arms over his face trying to block Vegeta.
Ribrainne giving Goku and Vegeta trouble, then latter being fodder to base Vegeta and lost to 18.
This was made more clear in the manga but it certainly appears Ribrianne's power heavily fluctuates depending on her emotional state.
Kale walking through an SSB kamehameha then losing to a tired SSG Goku with help from Caulifla and while supposedly stronger than before.
Several things indicated that Goku was holding back during this fight. This scene was only there to pay an homage to the first Broly movie not to establish Kale''s strength. Otherwise Goku wouldn't have been able to destroy her in SSG later.
SSB x20 Goku being wrecked by Jiren the first time but giving him trouble later on
I believe the implication here is that Goku got stronger during this time. Also, he was fighting alongside a very powerful Vegeta rather than fighting alone.

So I mean the only things that you mentioned that I actually see as being objectively inconsistent is Kururin being portrayed to be stronger than Base Goku since Goku was forced to use SSJ and Trunks coming out of nowhere to compete with SSJ Rose Black.

So, again, I don't think the scaling is really that bad at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Re: SSB Goku x SS Kefla

I think it should be clarified some points about what the characters stated. It’s implied that Goku’s low stamina is the reason for Kefla having a chance, despite her gigantic energy. It’s either that Goku’s energy should be higher or his performance in general would be superior to hers. When Goku used kaioken, it was a double-edged sword and I agree SS Kefla is around that level. The genkidama’s comparison though is complicated, because it would imply that Kefla’s energy rivals something that lies beyond what Goku could accomplish in his top condition, which would contradict the dialogue between Vados and Champa. Perhaps you could say that Kefla’s energy increased the more she got used to her power, which is in line with her using SS2 and a stronger technique further.
Not a "chance," an advantage. Even Champa "miscalculated." SS Kefla's energy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:31 pm

lord turbo wrote: All forms except SS2 as clearly shown during the Zamasu arc and Vegeta has no rage boost in the DBS manga.

SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > SS2 Future Trunke = SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku.
Vegeta did get the rage boost in the manga against Beerus just like the movie and anime. I'm saying it may have been permanent as there is no other way ssj2 Vegeta would ever be above ssj3 Goku.
So there are two options here, ssj3 Goku was stronger than ssj2 Vegeta and holding back on Trunks, or that ssj2 Vegeta is stronger than ssj3 Goku because he kept his power up that he got against Beerus.
Going by statements Base Goku > base kids > Abo and Cado = Freeza (Namek Saga).
No, you are twisting the writers words. Goku was stated to be weaker than Frieza, Abo and Cado were stated to be Frieza by a guy who only ever knew of first form Frieza.
Thing is we don't know that since unlike the anime and movie version the manga version waa skipped.
It should be similar until shown otherwise.
That makes no sense considering Zamasu arc SS Vegeta and SS Goku are more or less similar to their Buu Saga selves, last time we saw SS Vegeta he was superior to SS Cabba (during the previous U6 Saga) who SS Caulifla scales to at best making her SS Vegeta/SS Goku (Buu Saga) tier as there is nothing stating Cabba changed in power level from the U6 Saga to the ToP Saga in the manga, this firmly puts FF Freeza around SS Buu Saga tier.
Vegeta and Goku are comparable to their buu arc selves, but should still be solidly above.
Like I said above, if Vegeta didn't keep his rage boost, and his ssj2 form is much stronger than Trunk's boosted ssj2 form (about 4x regular ssj2) then that would mean Vegeta at full power is around maybe 5x stronger than Buu saga saiyans which I think seems fair considering it's been around 5 years with god training.
Again, where is this shown and stated in RoF film?
When everyone was blown away by the immense power. Every single one of them knew he was transforming, if he only got 2x stronger max, then why would Goku say he didn't expect Frieza to reach that level?
Considering the gap between Goku at 6 to Beerus 7 was stated to he huge which is a between a 16-17% difference I am not really seeing where you are getting Freeza boost being "massive" means its way higher than 2-fold as far as differences in percentage is concerned for the RoF film.
Goku said he couldn't beat Beerus, he never said the difference between him and 70% Beerus was huge from what I remember. Goku probably knew Beerus was holding back as well.
I could just as easily say Freeza didn't hold back as he didn't give a damn who it was.
Small ki blasts are never that strong. ssj Vegeta knocked away kid Buu's ki blast, kid buu was over 8x stronger than him.
Again, why? We know canonically for those films and out of Toriyama's own mouth he considers a difference of 16-17% higher than the weaker character to be a humongous (which is synonym with massive, titantic immense, and etc) gap, a 100% (2x) increase by comparison would be considered in a completely different dimension altogether.
If the multiplier was so small why not just go kaioken?
How is that any different from SS Gohan < full power Perfect Cell < SS2 Gohan, a difference of 2-fold that is treated as an other worldly gap in differences?
Actually for Gohan his ssj2 form was far more than x2 because he was stated to be at half power at one point but still strong enough to go up against super perfect Cell. Gohan most likely got a large boost due to his anger.
SSB was just a saiyan that has absorbed the power of SSG in their being in their SS form as mentioned by Goku and further elaborated in official supplement material for the film that supportd that notion,
If that was all there is to it then he would have went SSB when fighting Beerus at the end of BoG.
yet you are trying to forcibly make the narrative of the film fit in the canon of the different DBS manga which makes little sense as you are now stating RoF base Goku > Majin Buu = SS3 Goku > SS2 Goku (Zamasu Saga). What happened to Goku's immense boost in base form from RoF to The Zamasu? Did he simply lose it or something?
It was never stated Goku was buu saga tier, Trunks said he was stronger than ssj2 Gohan, that's it.
Also I'm not saying base Goku is definitely stronger than Buu in the manga. I think he would still need at least ssj to win even against good Buu. I think it's possible Frieza wasn't at full power when fighting base Goku.
Lets look at it this way, Frieza in his final form had to be stronger than Piccolo and ssj Gohan, meaning he had to at least be around Cell tier in his final form.
Also I'm not saying you are wrong about this, I actually believed they were around Buu saga tier in the manga for a while since Goku never absorbed god ki, but that doesn't automatically mean the RoF movie doesn't work.
I mean lets go with what you are saying now. Frieza only showed up after getting golden form (which means it is possible that he needed that to think he could beat someone who could beat Buu), and never actually said "I'm stronger than Buu" in his final form, so really you can have Goku be around buu saga tier in RoF and still have it work.
All official supplement show and state RoF Goku has that power in his normal form, even the series creator stated he absorbed that power into his being which is why he doesn't need to transform into that form itself to use it's power. At this point you're blatantly going up against what was established by the series creator (Toriyama) at the time and everything else that consistently goes with it to which I ask why exactly?
Toriyama said Goku wouldn't need to go SSG anymore because he absorbed it. That does not mean his base form is that level, it could mean his ssj form or ssj3 form is at that level. Toriyama never once said in an interview "Goku's base now has the power of SSG and he can go beyond it with his ssj form" he said "Goku absorbed the power of SSG so he won't be needing that form anymore". You are changing his words into something they are not.
I understand where you are coming from with these, but nowhere in any of those scans does it say Goku and Vegeta's base is on the exact same level as SSG.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:10 pm

Well looks like it's Broly's turn to be powered up this time. I'm sure there will be fans in YouTube comments asking how Broly could possibly match up to Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

I suppose if it's a different Broly, a canon Broly, then they get away with whatever they want.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:01 pm

Bullza wrote: I suppose if it's a different Broly, a canon Broly, then they get away with whatever they want.
That's basically the same thing I said about Kale. Green Super Saiyans aren't exactly limited to a set power range.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:08 pm

How strong do you guys believe the show portrays Vegetas SSBE "form" to be?

I've heard some people putting him above Goku's KKX20. Some say it makes him equal Goku's KKX20.

If it does make him stronger, that's an insane multiplier. Making it the 2nd highest multiplier, over +20X's his blue form.

Or do you guys believe Goku wasn't using his KKX20 when he fought along side SSBE Vegeta?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:41 am

So now instead of asking the question of:

"Is the new Saiyan going to be stronger than Jiren?"

We can instead ask:

"Is Broly going to be stronger than Jiren?"

So how about it? You guys think he's going to be the new strongest antagonist or no?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Username2016 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:54 am

PFM18 wrote:So now instead of asking the question of:

"Is the new Saiyan going to be stronger than Jiren?"

We can instead ask:

"Is Broly going to be stronger than Jiren?"

So how about it? You guys think he's going to be the new strongest antagonist or no?
I can see them making Broly MUI tier because of merchandise

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:55 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:How strong do you guys believe the show portrays Vegetas SSBE "form" to be?
Normally he is about as strong as Goku, but he can surpass a God of Destruction if he goes full throttle.
PFM18 wrote:Is Broly going to be stronger than Jiren?
Difficult to tell. I believe he may pose a challenge to SSB, but anything further than that depends on how Toriyama will adjust his strength. Goku may as well use Ultra Instinct on this movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:03 pm

I don't think he'll be as powerful as Jiren.

He'll use Super Saiyan Blue against him most likely. If some people's​ theory ends up being true then Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta might be used but I wouldn't even rate him as high as Jiren.

Even if Ultra Instinct was brought back then I like I said before I could see them being a Fusion Reborn moment where he just wrecks him straight away.

To be more powerful than Jiren then they'd really need to introduce something more powerful than Ultra Instinct. Now if they used Ultra Instinct Gogeta...then maybe.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:32 pm

How strong will a hypothetical SS4 Broly will be?
Assuming SS4, it's explanation and working is the same as GT..
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:28 pm

Bullza wrote:Well looks like it's Broly's turn to be powered up this time. I'm sure there will be fans in YouTube comments asking how Broly could possibly match up to Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

I suppose if it's a different Broly, a canon Broly, then they get away with whatever they want.
It is a different Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:32 pm

ZombieVito wrote:It is a different Broly.
Nah, it will be the same Broly. Toriyama will probably use the excuse that he get some crazy zenkai after being blasted to the Sun and achieved the power of the Gods and the funny thing is that this is not even worse than Freeza excuse to be strong in RoF lol
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:It is a different Broly.
Nah, it will be the same Broly. Toriyama will probably use the excuse that he get some crazy zenkai after being blasted to the Sun and achieved the power of the Gods and the funny thing is that this is not even worse than Freeza excuse to be strong in RoF lol
Yeah there's no way. This is a Broly reboot not him just coming back from the dead.

And that is WAYYY worse than the "Freeza excuse to be strong"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:42 pm

PFM18 wrote:Yeah there's no way. This is a Broly reboot not him just coming back from the dead.
Nor Toriyama or Toei cares about canon, so is not like they couldn't mess this up by having some character reminding of having fought with Broly in the past.
And that is WAYYY worse than the "Freeza excuse to be strong"
Nah, Broly is a Saiyan that ever since his debut was build to his power increase every second he stays alive, it's dumb but still better than the prodigy thing and off-screen training.
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