Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Super Saiyan 2 in general. So would Goku be any stronger after going Berserk or does he have the strength but he just loses his rationale.

Berseker should be stronger. Goku was forced to use a higher transformation against it twice.

[Bullza]

Berseker should be stronger. Goku was forced to use a higher transformation against it twice.

No I'm talking about Goku's Berserk form from the Super Dragon Ball Heroes episode. Nothing related to Kale.

[ankokudaishogun]

Kale's and Goku's berserker states were completely different.

[ZombieVito]

Berseker should be stronger. Goku was forced to use a higher transformation against it twice.

No I'm talking about Goku's Berserk form from the Super Dragon Ball Heroes episode. Nothing related to Kale.

I haven't read the Heroes manga but should their Berserk states be the same?

[PFM18]

Berseker should be stronger. Goku was forced to use a higher transformation against it twice.

No I'm talking about Goku's Berserk form from the Super Dragon Ball Heroes episode. Nothing related to Kale.

I haven't read the Heroes manga but should their Berserk states be the same?

Nah they certainly appear to be different whether it be the hair color or the no increased muscularity for Goku.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

[Bullza]

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

I think the game had them put Kanba on the same "different kind of strength" as Beerus and Jiren, so probably somewhat comparable.

The next episode seems like Vegito will be using Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken. So it will depend on how Kanba stands up in comparison and how strong you think Jiren is compared to the Kaioken.

[Marlowe89]

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

I don't think the game and its materials adopt a workable power scale at all, but if they did, I might be inclined to think Cumber surpasses Jiren in strength quite comfortably -- especially if he's comparable to Vegito Blue Kaioken in base.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

I think the game had them put Kanba on the same "different kind of strength" as Beerus and Jiren, so probably somewhat comparable.

The next episode seems like Vegito will be using Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken. So it will depend on how Kanba stands up in comparison and how strong you think Jiren is compared to the Kaioken.

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

I don't think it uses a workable power scale at all, but if it did, I might be inclined to think Cumber surpasses Jiren in strength quite comfortably -- especially if he's comparable to Vegito Blue Kaioken in base.

Agreed. I think full power base Cumber would probably be more or less equal to either full power or limit broken Jiren. The scary thing is, this discounts Super Saiyan and Golden Oozaru is even more insane.

[Hugo Boss]

I particularly don’t like that Kanba will have typical Saiyan transformations, his current form is much more appealing and it looks even stronger than those power-ups.

[Marlowe89]

I particularly don’t like that Kanba will have typical Saiyan transformations, his current form is much more appealing and it looks even stronger than those power-ups.

Fully agreed. Cumber already has a threatening presence in his base form; he didn't need all these transformations on top of that for the sake of it. This is why I'm not a fan of Heroes throwing out popular forms like used products in the bargain bin.

I know that the promotional anime has no pretension of being a well-told story, but I hope it doesn't go that route.

[ankokudaishogun]

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

I don't think the game and its materials adopt a workable power scale at all, but if they did, I might be inclined to think Cumber surpasses Jiren in strength quite comfortably -- especially if he's comparable to Vegito Blue Kaioken in base.

No: when Vegetto Blue appears, Cumber goes Super Saiyan. They are more or less matched, but their fight gets interrupted.
There is no in-game event of Vegetto Blue using Kaioken.

Cumber has been, in-game, stated having a DIFFERENT KIND of strength than Beerus and Jiren, suggesting that, unlike them, he's not "just strong" but has something else going on for him

Currently, I'd say Cumber is quite safely GoD level, at least as Super Saiyan, but not yet strong as Jiren.
But that is mostly because Jiren is just too strong, he no-sold basically everything this side of Mastered Ultra Instinct including 2 GoD-level opponents(+friends) going at him at full power.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Since we're on the topic of Heroes, how does Cumber compare to Jiren?

I don't think the game and its materials adopt a workable power scale at all, but if they did, I might be inclined to think Cumber surpasses Jiren in strength quite comfortably -- especially if he's comparable to Vegito Blue Kaioken in base.

No: when Vegetto Blue appears, Cumber goes Super Saiyan. They are more or less matched, but their fight gets interrupted.
There is no in-game event of Vegetto Blue using Kaioken.

Cumber has been, in-game, stated having a DIFFERENT KIND of strength than Beerus and Jiren, suggesting that, unlike them, he's not "just strong" but has something else going on for him

Currently, I'd say Cumber is quite safely GoD level, at least as Super Saiyan, but not yet strong as Jiren.
But that is mostly because Jiren is just too strong, he no-sold basically everything this side of Mastered Ultra Instinct including 2 GoD-level opponents(+friends) going at him at full power.

Wouldn't Golden Oozaru Cumber be able to completely destroy Jiren though?

[ekrolo2]

I particularly don’t like that Kanba will have typical Saiyan transformations, his current form is much more appealing and it looks even stronger than those power-ups.

Fully agreed. Cumber already has a threatening presence in his base form; he didn't need all these transformations on top of that for the sake of it. This is why I'm not a fan of Heroes throwing out popular forms like used products in the bargain bin.

I know that the promotional anime has no pretension of being a well-told story, but I hope it doesn't go that route.

Given the arcade game where SS Kanba and Golden Oozaru Kanba exist, it's very obvious they'll go the full route with him. I wouldn't be surprised if he got SS4, especially as he's already halfway there.

[Marlowe89]

Given the arcade game where SS Kanba and Golden Oozaru Kanba exist, it's very obvious they'll go the full route with him. I wouldn't be surprised if he got SS4, especially as he's already halfway there.

By 2019, he'll become the next Madara Uchiha meme.

[lord turbo]

Vegeta did get the rage boost in the manga against Beerus just like the movie and anime. I'm saying it may have been permanent as there is no other way ssj2 Vegeta would ever be above ssj3 Goku.

No, he did not, don't lie, no such thing happened in the manga. You say there is no other way for him to be ither than the fact je alrrady and simply is? In fact, did they even mention Vegeta's boost was temporary in the anime like the movie?

So there are two options here, ssj3 Goku was stronger than ssj2 Vegeta and holding back on Trunks, or that ssj2 Vegeta is stronger than ssj3 Goku because he kept his power up that he got against Beerus.

The first option doesn't make sense since the same SS3 Goku went SSG to take out Future Trunks so there's no proof he was holding back and we already know from Future Trunks SSJ2 can be trained to be the same boost as SS3 or superior so Vegeta's SS2 is just simply far greater than Goku's SS3 despite being equal in every other form

No, you are twisting the writers words. Goku was stated to be weaker than Frieza, Abo and Cado were stated to be Frieza by a guy who only ever knew of first form Frieza.

A suppressed Goku, also, who said Tarble only knew of Freeza's first form? Again, Goku never said Tarble was wrong so his statement stands uncontradicted.

Base Goku > Freeza (Namek Saga).

It should be similar until shown otherwise.

It should be similar to two different depictions and levels of the same thing? You got any proof of this or is this merely your head-canon?

Vegeta and Goku are comparable to their buu arc selves, but should still be solidly above.

Nothing says they are solidly above their Buu Saga selves though.

Like I said above, if Vegeta didn't keep his rage boost, and his ssj2 form is much stronger than Trunk's boosted ssj2 form (about 4x regular ssj2) then that would mean Vegeta at full power is around maybe 5x stronger than Buu saga saiyans which I think seems fair considering it's been around 5 years with god training.

There is no rage boost, that's Vegeta's normal power he can use any time at will. All we know is that Vegeta and Goku during the Zamasu Saga are not that much different than their Buu Saga selves (minus Vegeta's SSJ2 form).

When everyone was blown away by the immense power. Every single one of them knew he was transforming, if he only got 2x stronger max, then why would Goku say he didn't expect Frieza to reach that level?

I mean actual numbers, not meaningless descriptions all these characters have used at one point or another. Again, any proof besides your opinion?

Goku said he couldn't beat Beerus, he never said the difference between him and 70% Beerus was huge from what I remember. Goku probably knew Beerus was holding back as well.

He was comparing the difference between him and Beerus power ball. Its officially stated by Toriyama in an interview that they were 60% to 70% (this is confirmed by Whis mentioning the highest Beerus went in his fight against Goku was 70%) during that film so like I said before 16-17% difference in power is considered gigantic in this series.

Small ki blasts are never that strong. ssj Vegeta knocked away kid Buu's ki blast, kid buu was over 8x stronger than him.

Size is completely irrelevant, what matters is how much ki is put into any given blast.

If the multiplier was so small why not just go kaioken?

Don't ask me to prove a negative.

Actually for Gohan his ssj2 form was far more than x2 because he was stated to be at half power at one point but still strong enough to go up against super perfect Cell. Gohan most likely got a large boost due to his anger.

I'm talking about Gohan vs regular Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell, is there anything to suggest he was more than 2-fold against regular Perfect Cell?

If that was all there is to it then he would have went SSB when fighting Beerus at the end of BoG.

Why are you telling me this, I'm just repeating what is actually said in the series proper, out of universe its because SSJB wasn't invented yet.

It was never stated Goku was buu saga tier, Trunks said he was stronger than ssj2 Gohan, that's it.

You mean Goku stated holding back Future Trunks (who he was slightlt inferior to in SS2) was stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan, the same thing Majin Vegeta said about SS2 Goku (Buu Saga). This means they are more or less in the same range with each other.

Also I'm not saying base Goku is definitely stronger than Buu in the manga. I think he would still need at least ssj to win even against good Buu. I think it's possible Frieza wasn't at full power when fighting base Goku.

Not being more or less not that much different than his Buu Saga level he is. What you think isn't proof, I need evidence/solid proof, not speculation or wishful thinking. Whatever level you may have Goku at during the unseend manga RoF manga seems pointless since at the end of the day he's still not much different than his Buu Saga after several years of additional training with Vegeta in the time chamber and further training with Whis by the time we hit the Zamasu Saga in the manga.

Toriyama said Goku wouldn't need to go SSG anymore because he absorbed it. That does not mean his base form is that level, it could mean his ssj form or ssj3 form is at that level.

His base form and SS are identical in BoG film where he didn't power down much at all from SSJG, further official material states he can use that same power in his base form without changing his appearance with a transformation, everything else to the tie in manga for the film alludes to Goku using SSG in his base form so what's the problem here?

I understand where you are coming from with these, but nowhere in any of those scans does it say Goku and Vegeta's base is on the exact same level as SSG.

Agree to disagree I suppose.

[dragon boss z]

No, he did not, don't lie, no such thing happened in the manga. You say there is no other way for him to be ither than the fact je alrrady and simply is? In fact, did they even mention Vegeta's boost was temporary in the anime like the movie?

Um maybe you should actually go back and read the manga again before calling someone a liar? The whole my Bulma scene happened and Krillin asked "since when was Vegeta this strong?" indicating he got the rage boost.

The first option doesn't make sense since the same SS3 Goku went SSG to take out Future Trunks so there's no proof he was holding back and we already know from Future Trunks SSJ2 can be trained to be the same boost as SS3 or superior so Vegeta's SS2 is just simply far greater than Goku's SS3 despite being equal in every other form

Well if he has a similar ssj2 grade 2 type thing that Trunks has, but if it's just regular ssj2 it doesn't make sense for it to be that strong.

A suppressed Goku, also, who said Tarble only knew of Freeza's first form? Again, Goku never said Tarble was wrong so his statement stands uncontradicted.

If Vegeta who worked under Frieza didn't know of his forms, why would his younger brother who was banished and didn't even work for Frieza know of them? And Goku doesn't need to contradict Tarbel as Abo and Cado are Frieza level, just not full power Frieza level. Frieza's resting power level is 530,000 and that's about what they reached. Maybe they reached regular final form Frieza level as that's his most known form fan wise, but not full power Frieza.

Base Goku > Freeza (Namek Saga).

Not according to official statements.

It should be similar to two different depictions and levels of the same thing? You got any proof of this or is this merely your head-canon?

Like I said there is really no power contradictions unless you do what you are doing and use BoG and guides with your argument. Just look at what Naruto did. Naruto the Last and the Boruto movie were canon. In the anime they re did the Boruto movie but not the Last movie, meaning the Boruto anime kept one movie as canon and retconned the other. You can't just say if you take one as canon you have to take the other. Toyotaro decided to re do the BoG arc, but left the RoF arc alone as I guess he felt like he had nothing to add.

Nothing says they are solidly above their Buu Saga selves though.

So the multiple years of Whis training did nothing for them? ssj2 Vegeta beating someone above buu saga ssj3 tier doesn't prove they've gotten stronger?

There is no rage boost, that's Vegeta's normal power he can use any time at will. All we know is that Vegeta and Goku during the Zamasu Saga are not that much different than their Buu Saga selves (minus Vegeta's SSJ2 form).

That seems to convenient for your argument. Vegeta just happened to only make his ssj2 form stronger, yet they are always training in base with Whis. In the anime Whis flat out said they were training to make their base stronger (ya that's not the manga but you get my point). Though in the manga Whis did have them have a transformations prohibited fight.

I mean actual numbers, not meaningless descriptions all these characters have used at one point or another. Again, any proof besides your opinion?

So you think they would be shocked by such a small boost and actually expected it to be smaller? They all knew Frieza was powering up, so if they were surprised to begin with that would be one thing, but Goku knew Frieza wasn't going all out and stated so, so for Goku to be shocked by how much Frieza actually did power up it couldn't have just been a small percentage boost. Now I agree if I started throwing out numbers like "golden Frieza has to be at least a 50x boost" or something, then it would just me making opinions, but it's pretty clear by dialog and writers intent that golden Frieza is just "a shimmering facade" as Frieza himself said. It was so much more power Frieza also had problems regulating it.

He was comparing the difference between him and Beerus power ball. Its officially stated by Toriyama in an interview that they were 60% to 70% (this is confirmed by Whis mentioning the highest Beerus went in his fight against Goku was 70%) during that film so like I said before 16-17% difference in power is considered gigantic in this series.

Full power SSG was 60% and like I said we aren't talking about BoG here we are talking about RoF.
But if we are talking movie continuity
final form Frieza<base Goku<<ssj Goku<SSG Goku<SSB Goku<Golden Frieza<<Beerus

Size is completely irrelevant, what matters is how much ki is put into any given blast.

Ya I don't think a already tired Freeza would waist putting in a lot of energy to a ki blast meant for Krillin.

I'm talking about Gohan vs regular Perfect Cell, not Super Perfect Cell, is there anything to suggest he was more than 2-fold against regular Perfect Cell?

His full power was more than a 2x boost, but no he didn't necessarily need a 2x boost to beat perfect Cell, but that's because perfect Cell wasn't insanely stronger than his regular ssj form. Strength and speed wise he was able to keep up.
ssj Gohan<perfect Cell<=50% ssj2 Gohan<super perfect Cell<ssj2 Gohan

Why are you telling me this, I'm just repeating what is actually said in the series proper, out of universe its because SSJB wasn't invented yet.

And I'm saying that's not what was explained. In the movie Goku flat out says "I experienced the power of SSG and now I've learned to harness that power" He did not say "I experienced SSG and this is what happens when I go ssj now".

You mean Goku stated holding back Future Trunks (who he was slightlt inferior to in SS2) was stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan, the same thing Majin Vegeta said about SS2 Goku (Buu Saga). This means they are more or less in the same range with each other.

Ya my bad, but either way he doesn't say by how much stronger. Like I've previously mentioned, it could mean they are only a bit above buu saga tier, and I think that is a valid opinion, but that statement isn't enough to prove that they aren't a couple times stronger than buu saga tier saiyans either. We just know they are stronger than cell games Gohan.

Also if you want to be consistent you have to accept base Caulifla is weaker than namek ssj Goku as Frieza only said she was stronger than the first ssj he fought after she went ssj. If you don't accept that, which happens backs up buu saga base Goku being weaker than namek Frieza, you are cherry picking power statements.

Not being more or less not that much different than his Buu Saga level he is. What you think isn't proof, I need evidence/solid proof, not speculation or wishful thinking. Whatever level you may have Goku at during the unseend manga RoF manga seems pointless since at the end of the day he's still not much different than his Buu Saga after several years of additional training with Vegeta in the time chamber and further training with Whis by the time we hit the Zamasu Saga in the manga.

The evidence would be ssj Caulifla beating pushing final form Frieza and even annoying golden Frieza, ssj2 Vegeta beating ssj Black who beat ssj2 Trunks, ssj Goku fighting with Hit pretty evenly, and the fact they trained with an angel for years, overcame Frieza, fought in the U6 tournament, and fought Black. They should definitely be a bit stronger at the least.

His base form and SS are identical in BoG film where he didn't power down much at all from SSJG, further official material states he can use that same power in his base form without changing his appearance with a transformation, everything else to the tie in manga for the film alludes to Goku using SSG in his base form so what's the problem here?

It's not a problem, it just seems to have been retconned/ignored.
As where everyone's power lies, we may find out more in the ToP. If Gohan goes mystic and they say he is about as strong as he was in the Buu saga, we will have something to gauge off of.

[Bullza]

I watched that episode again and I'm just going to assume that Super Saiyan Berserk Goku is just as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Base Vegeta didn't struggle too badly. Trunks only went Super Saiyan for him and somehow got the upper hand and so did Cooler actually.

So I'd say Cooler was around that level whereas Frieza was questionably Super Saiyan level. Fitting with Coolers comment about him being surpassed with just Golden Frieza.

[PFM18]

*snip*

What exactly are you guys arguing about?

[ankokudaishogun]

Currently, I'd say Cumber is quite safely GoD level, at least as Super Saiyan, but not yet strong as Jiren.
But that is mostly because Jiren is just too strong, he no-sold basically everything this side of Mastered Ultra Instinct including 2 GoD-level opponents(+friends) going at him at full power.

Wouldn't Golden Oozaru Cumber be able to completely destroy Jiren though?

I don't think so. IMHO he would, at very best, being as strong a s the last UIOmen Goku, which was still safely weaker than Jiren. And this would be the best-case scenario for Cumber.

Now, a SS4 Cumber might potentially be stronger than Jiren... until Jiren goes Full Power and then he's the strongest again.
(also, no doubt Jiren improved since ToP. I'm scared what a Training of Friendhsip Jiren could do)