Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:41 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I feel Kale was overpowered a bit, making Gohan having any sort of chance against ssj Kefla make no sense. Either that or ssj Kefla is barely stronger than Kale, or is maybe the same level with better speed and control, but even then Gohan shouldn't be above SSB or Golden Frieza. I guess we'll see next chapter, but it's being heavily implies he is about to do something.
I still don''t consider Manga Kale any stronger than her anime counterpart. But, even with that in mind, Gohan will have to be incredibly powerful to fight Kefla, given that she is likely as strong as she is in the anime.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:42 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I feel Kale was overpowered a bit, making Gohan having any sort of chance against ssj Kefla make no sense. Either that or ssj Kefla is barely stronger than Kale, or is maybe the same level with better speed and control, but even then Gohan shouldn't be above SSB or Golden Frieza. I guess we'll see next chapter, but it's being heavily implies he is about to do something.
I think Gohan will put up a fight, but he definitely has something planned. He isn't stupid enough to think he can win by combat strength alone.
Omniboy wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:I feel Kale was overpowered a bit, making Gohan having any sort of chance against ssj Kefla make no sense. Either that or ssj Kefla is barely stronger than Kale, or is maybe the same level with better speed and control, but even then Gohan shouldn't be above SSB or Golden Frieza. I guess we'll see next chapter, but it's being heavily implies he is about to do something.
I still don''t consider Manga Kale any stronger than her anime counterpart.
It took 5 blue tiers to defeat Anilaza in the anime. Kale did it by herself in the manga. She's stronger, it's not hard to see.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:46 pm

Bergamo wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:I feel Kale was overpowered a bit, making Gohan having any sort of chance against ssj Kefla make no sense. Either that or ssj Kefla is barely stronger than Kale, or is maybe the same level with better speed and control, but even then Gohan shouldn't be above SSB or Golden Frieza. I guess we'll see next chapter, but it's being heavily implies he is about to do something.
I think Gohan will put up a fight, but he definitely has something planned. He isn't stupid enough to think he can win by combat strength alone.
Omniboy wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:I feel Kale was overpowered a bit, making Gohan having any sort of chance against ssj Kefla make no sense. Either that or ssj Kefla is barely stronger than Kale, or is maybe the same level with better speed and control, but even then Gohan shouldn't be above SSB or Golden Frieza. I guess we'll see next chapter, but it's being heavily implies he is about to do something.
I still don''t consider Manga Kale any stronger than her anime counterpart.
It took 5 blue tiers to defeat Anilaza in the anime. Kale did it by herself in the manga. She's stronger, it's not hard to see.
But is Anilaza as strong as he is in the anime? The strength of the antagonist do differ from time to time.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:46 pm

Bergamo wrote:The tweet says that the line is a direct reference to Trunks from the cell saga. Trunks was too slow, thus why you can infer that Kale is too slow. Also, the tweet implies that this is a problem with her form, not that she's just bad at martial arts.
They're not the same form, they don't have the same disadvantages; a pointless callback is just a pointless callback. If Kale was slow, she wouldn't be hitting characters like Toppo, Vegeta and Freeza. And even if she is slow, she still shouldn't be getting hurt. She's not exhausting herself, if anything she keeps getting stronger since her form is literally Broly's form, who kept getting stronger.
Bergamo wrote:I'm thinking about making a post to explain the powerscaling in the manga, so that people like you will stop your blind hatred.
Nobody misunderstands the manga. You're the one trying to excuse everything while ignoring the original series' logic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:49 pm

Bergamo wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
The gr wrote:WTF Base Gohan deflected a ki blast from SSJ Kefla like it was nothing.
    Next month is gonna be the biggest shitshow, R.I.P to the powerscaling in the manga.
    The power scale in the manga was already screwed when they decided to give Black a Super Saiyan form.

    This chapter is seriously awful and ruins the tournament. How can anyone defend the manga is beyond me.
    Oh look, a other person who dislikes the manga because they don't fundamentally understand it.

    Let me guess...
    -"Super Saiyan Black is fighting SSB Vegeta! Screw context, that's duuuuummmb.:
    -"Vegeta using SSG is duuummmb."
    -"I wanted to wait another 3 months for the fodder characters to get eliminated. Actually, if that happened I'd call the manga boring."

    I'm thinking about making a post to explain the powerscaling in the manga, so that people like you will stop your blind hatred.
    Sigh.

    Since they gave Black Super Saiyan then that means he has 2, 3 and God. This means that since his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku's then his Rose form is 400 times stronger than Blue.

    Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm even surprised you like that mess of a manga since Bergamo was awful on it.

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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:51 pm

    Doctor. wrote:
    Bergamo wrote:The tweet says that the line is a direct reference to Trunks from the cell saga. Trunks was too slow, thus why you can infer that Kale is too slow. Also, the tweet implies that this is a problem with her form, not that she's just bad at martial arts.
    They're not the same form, they don't have the same disadvantages; a pointless callback is just a pointless callback. If Kale was slow, she wouldn't be hitting characters like Toppo, Vegeta and Freeza.
    Bergamo wrote:I'm thinking about making a post to explain the powerscaling in the manga, so that people like you will stop your blind hatred.
    Nobody misunderstands the manga. You're the one trying to excuse everything while ignoring the original series' logic.
    Kale hit Frieza and Goku because she wasn't as bulky then. She got a lot bigger in between then and when she fought the pride troopers.

    I think many people misunderstand things like SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta. I don't think the manga is flawless, but so many people hate on it for no good reason.
    ZombieVito wrote:
    Bergamo wrote:
    ZombieVito wrote: The power scale in the manga was already screwed when they decided to give Black a Super Saiyan form.

    This chapter is seriously awful and ruins the tournament. How can anyone defend the manga is beyond me.
    Oh look, a other person who dislikes the manga because they don't fundamentally understand it.

    Let me guess...
    -"Super Saiyan Black is fighting SSB Vegeta! Screw context, that's duuuuummmb.:
    -"Vegeta using SSG is duuummmb."
    -"I wanted to wait another 3 months for the fodder characters to get eliminated. Actually, if that happened I'd call the manga boring."

    I'm thinking about making a post to explain the powerscaling in the manga, so that people like you will stop your blind hatred.
    Sigh.

    Since they gave Black Super Saiyan then that means he has 2, 3 and God. This means that since his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku's then his Rose form is 400 times stronger than Blue.

    Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm even surprised you like that mess of a manga since Bergamo was awful on it.
    Black having super saiyan does not mean he has the rest of the forms. That makes no sense.

    Black says, "The soul of a God and the body of a saiyan are INCREASINGLY becoming one and the same." This means that the transformation from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Rose is gradual. When he fought Vegeta he was 90% transformed, and that's why he had God tier strength in a mortal form.
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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by PFM18 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:53 pm

    Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.
    Now to be clear it is his version of SSB but it can't have the same multiplier as SSB. Otherwise, that would make Super Saiyan Rose Black 100x stronger than Goku/Vegeta which clearly is not the case.

    Or atleast in the anime that is how things are shown. I can't speak for that Toyotaro's loose stool version of DBS.

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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:58 pm

    Bergamo wrote:Kale hit Frieza and Goku because she wasn't as bulky then. She got a lot bigger in between then and when she fought the pride troopers.

    I think many people misunderstand things like SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta. I don't think the manga is flawless, but so many people hate on it for no good reason.
    Fine. In the same chapter, Kale hit Toppo and Vegeta. And she lifted Magetta a few pages later with one hand (someone SS Vegeta couldn't even budge), indicating no power loss in the slightest.

    There's nothing to misunderstand. Vegeta ate a senzu, meaning he was at full power, and he still, at the very best, tied with Super Saiyan Black. That's an issue whether you personally think it's big or not. You can argue whether it's an issue with the portrayal of Vegeta's power between his two fights or with his huge training increase in the RoSaT, but it's an issue nonetheless.

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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:01 pm

    Doctor. wrote:
    Bergamo wrote:Kale hit Frieza and Goku because she wasn't as bulky then. She got a lot bigger in between then and when she fought the pride troopers.

    I think many people misunderstand things like SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta. I don't think the manga is flawless, but so many people hate on it for no good reason.
    Fine. In the same chapter, Kale hit Toppo and Vegeta. And she lifted Magetta a few pages later with one hand (someone SS Vegeta couldn't even budge), indicating no power loss in the slightest.

    There's nothing to misunderstand. Vegeta ate a senzu, meaning he was at full power, and he still, at the very best, tied with Super Saiyan Black. That's an issue whether you personally think it's big or not. You can argue whether it's an issue with the portrayal of Vegeta's power between his two fights or with his huge training increase in the RoSaT, but it's an issue nonetheless.
    Vegeta was at full power(for as long as full power actually lasts in un-mastered blue). Black was equal to him in Super Saiyan. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying why it happened.
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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:02 pm

    Bergamo wrote:Vegeta was at full power(for as long as full power actually lasts in un-mastered blue). Black was equal to him in Super Saiyan. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying why it happened.
    So you agree that SSB Vegeta is equal to Super Saiyan Black, and you're still saying it's not an issue and people are misunderstanding the scene.

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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:04 pm

    Doctor. wrote:
    Bergamo wrote:Vegeta was at full power(for as long as full power actually lasts in un-mastered blue). Black was equal to him in Super Saiyan. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying why it happened.
    So you agree that SSB Vegeta is equal to Super Saiyan Black, and you're still saying it's not an issue and people are misunderstanding the scene.
    Yes.
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    Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

    Post by The gr » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:05 pm

    ZombieVito wrote: Sigh.

    Since they gave Black Super Saiyan then that means he has 2, 3 and God. This means that since his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku's then his Rose form is 400 times stronger than Blue.

    Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm even surprised you like that mess of a manga since Bergamo was awful on it.
    I've definitely find Base Gohan deflecting an attack from SSJ Kefla worst because in chapter 34 like 98 it focused on the characters conserving their full power later on as we know the Trio are base tier and giving trouble to base Gohan but now he casually swipe a ki blast from a SSJ Kefla who is far stronger than U9.
      Bergamo and U9 were fine, at least they had focused chapter and the scene with Bergamo begging mercy made their erasure more shocking but now everyone is getting one shotted left and right.

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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:06 pm

      Bergamo wrote:
      Doctor. wrote:
      Bergamo wrote:Vegeta was at full power(for as long as full power actually lasts in un-mastered blue). Black was equal to him in Super Saiyan. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying why it happened.
      So you agree that SSB Vegeta is equal to Super Saiyan Black, and you're still saying it's not an issue and people are misunderstanding the scene.
      Yes.
      You're not explaining yourself.

      Vegeta's strength is either inconsistently portrayed in both fights, or he gets ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time in the RoSaT.

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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by Green » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:07 pm

      I don't see how Black's SS is an issue when it was already explained how and why it was becoming gradually stronger, now Vegeta's SS2 is something that could be discussed.

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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:09 pm

      ZombieVito wrote:Sigh.

      Since they gave Black Super Saiyan then that means he has 2, 3 and God. This means that since his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku's then his Rose form is 400 times stronger than Blue.

      Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.

      You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm even surprised you like that mess of a manga since Bergamo was awful on it.
      TBH, even the anime idea of Rose just being Black's SS causes problems, that should also mean he has a version of 2, 3, God and Blue. Why isn't there a Rose 2 or a Rose 3? It's an issue I'm not really sure how to go about fixing between the two versions short of just cutting out the idea of Black having SS forms period.
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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:11 pm

      ekrolo2 wrote:
      ZombieVito wrote:Sigh.

      Since they gave Black Super Saiyan then that means he has 2, 3 and God. This means that since his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku's then his Rose form is 400 times stronger than Blue.

      Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.

      You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm even surprised you like that mess of a manga since Bergamo was awful on it.
      TBH, even the anime idea of Rose just being Black's SS causes problems, that should also mean he has a version of 2, 3, God and Blue. Why isn't there a Rose 2 or a Rose 3? It's an issue I'm not really sure how to go about fixing between the two versions short of just cutting out the idea of Black having SS forms period.
      Just make his base form as strong as the other Saiyans (or slightly stronger for tension's sake). Maybe it loses impact in terms of Black being this super strong Goku lookalike if he's using SS2 and SS3 to take care of Trunks, but it's a good fix.

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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:12 pm

      Doctor. wrote:
      Bergamo wrote:
      Doctor. wrote: So you agree that SSB Vegeta is equal to Super Saiyan Black, and you're still saying it's not an issue and people are misunderstanding the scene.
      Yes.
      You're not explaining yourself.

      Vegeta's strength is either inconsistently portrayed in both fights, or he gets ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time in the RoSaT.
      I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

      Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

      In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:13 pm

      Doctor. wrote:Just make his base form as strong as the other Saiyans (or slightly stronger for tension's sake). Maybe it loses impact in terms of Black being this super strong Goku lookalike if he's using SS2 and SS3 to take care of Trunks, but it's a good fix.
      I mean, you can just give him a powerful Base form instead. His regular state is already WAY stronger than Goku's default one so you can just make him a quasi-Ultimate type thing.
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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:15 pm

      Bergamo wrote:
      Doctor. wrote:
      Bergamo wrote: Yes.
      You're not explaining yourself.

      Vegeta's strength is either inconsistently portrayed in both fights, or he gets ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time in the RoSaT.
      I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

      Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

      In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
      The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

      You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?

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      Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

      Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:19 pm

      Doctor. wrote:
      Bergamo wrote:
      Doctor. wrote: You're not explaining yourself.

      Vegeta's strength is either inconsistently portrayed in both fights, or he gets ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time in the RoSaT.
      I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

      Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

      In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
      The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

      You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
      Vegeta didn't get dozens of times stronger. I don't know what that assertion is based off of.
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