Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Yeah, I'm not buying Kefla not being any stronger than Caulifla. That's an insult to the Potaras. If it were Metamorese fusion, no one would even suggest something like this.

But that’s pretty much what Vados says in the manga: Kefla has Kale’s powerlevel and Caulifla’s fighting skills. That’s different from what she says in the anime: Potara makes them several dozens of times stronger on top of their combined strength.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah, I'm not buying Kefla not being any stronger than Caulifla. That's an insult to the Potaras. If it were Metamorese fusion, no one would even suggest something like this.

Keep in mind Kale's power was killing herself and she was rapidly using up all of her energy while Kefla was in complete control with the same level of power. If Kefla was raging with power killing herself it would be much greater than Kale's I would assume.

[Miracles]

But that’s pretty much what Vados says in the manga: Kefla has Kale’s powerlevel and Caulifla’s fighting skills. That’s different from what she says in the anime: Potara makes them several dozens of times stronger on top of their combined strength.

You have to look at the context tho. Vados states Kefla may be unmatched on the battlefield, calling her the "ultimate warrior" after the fusion. Never stated that about Kale.
Even the pride Trooper state that the moves Kefla were doing were "leagues above" both Kale and Caulifla.

[Marlowe89]

You have to look at the context tho. Vados states Kefla may be unmatched on the battlefield, calling her the "ultimate warrior" after the fusion. Never stated that about Kale.
Even the pride Trooper state that the moves Kefla were doing were "leagues above" both Kale and Caulifla.

Not sure what this is supposed to contradict. Kefla is the ultimate warrior because she has Kale's strength and Caulifla's fighting prowess.

You also have to keep in mind that Kale's berserker form is dynamic, so it's plausible that the Potara boost doesn't affect her in the usual way. She wasn't even at the height of her power anymore when she fused.

[Miracles]

Not sure what this is supposed to contradict. Kefla is the ultimate warrior because she has Kale's strength and Caulifla's fighting prowess.

You also have to keep in mind that Kale's berserker form is dynamic, so it's plausible that the Potara boost doesn't affect her in the usual way. She wasn't even at the height of her power anymore when she fused.

Did you just ignore what the pride trooper said in comparison to Kale and Kefla's physical ability?

[Marlowe89]

Did you just ignore what the pride trooper said in comparison to Kale and Kefla's physical ability?

I didn't, but Kahseral only said that Kefla's moves were leagues above what they were capable of pre-fusion; of course they would be, since Caulifla doesn't possess Kale's power and Kale doesn't possess Caulifla's dexterity. He didn't say anything about her physical strength.

[Hugo Boss]

Kale’s movements in her Super Saiyan form aren’t very impressive, you just avoid them like Vegeta said. It’s only natural that Kefla’s movements are sharper since she doesn’t depend only on raw power.

[Miracles]

I didn't, but Kahseral only said that Kefla's moves were leagues above what they were capable of pre-fusion; of course they would be, since Caulifla doesn't possess Kale's power and Kale doesn't possess Caulifla's dexterity. He didn't say anything about her physical strength.

Wow, Vados only lists Caulifla and Kale's respective strength differences. Caulfla obviously has more battle sense than Kale and Kale obviously has more raw power than Caulifla. Vados not mentioning the combination of the raw power from fusion still doesn't take away the fact that Caulifla's raw power mixed with Kale's raw power automatically makes her stronger than Kale alone.

[Black Hawk]

Wow, Vados only lists Caulifla and Kale's respective strength differences. Caulfla obviously has more battle sense than Kale and Kale obviously has more raw power than Caulifla. Vados not mentioning the combination of the raw power from fusion still doesn't take away the fact that Caulifla's raw power mixed with Kale's raw power automatically makes her stronger than Kale alone.

Part of me wants to agree, but, given we don't know what the smallest power difference that results in no boost in overall power to the stronger party is during Potara merging (such as when Goku considered that merging with Hercule might not make him any stronger or perhaps even make him weaker), for all we know, there may be too large a gap in power between (presumably) LSSJ Kale and SSJ1 Caulifla for Caulifla's power to contribute much, if any, to Kale's. Additionally, as Marlowe89 mentioned, Kale was no longer at the height of her abilities when she merged with Caulifla, so Caulifla likely merged with a Kale who was already on the backslide in terms of power, which could potentially make Kafla only as strong as Kale, perhaps even slightly weaker than her peak.

[Miracles]

Part of me wants to agree, but, given we don't know what the smallest power difference that results in no boost in overall power to the stronger party is during Potara merging (such as when Goku considered that merging with Hercule might not make him any stronger or perhaps even make him weaker), for all we know, there may be too large a gap in power between (presumably) LSSJ Kale and SSJ1 Caulifla for Caulifla's power to contribute much, if any, to Kale's. Additionally, as Marlowe89 mentioned, Kale was no longer at the height of her abilities when she merged with Caulifla, so Caulifla likely merged with a Kale who was already on the backslide in terms of power, which could potentially make Kafla only as strong as Kale, perhaps even slightly weaker than her peak.

But a Kale not at the height of her power, fused with Caulfla's power via Patorra is still stronger than a full power Kale alone.
Also don't forget that the Patorra's power is so great, Elder Shin stated Goku won't even need to transform into SS before fusing [Chapter: 502].

[Black Hawk]

But a Kale not at the height of her power, fused with Caulfla's power via Patorra is still stronger than a full power Kale alone.
Also don't forget that the Patorra's power is so great, Elder Shin stated Goku won't even need to transform into SS before fusing [Chapter: 502].

The reason Vegetto was so absurdly powerful was because Goku and Vegeta were equivalent to each other in the same forms; if I'm not mistaken, Potara works at its maximum potential when both fusing parties are equal to each other: the less equal they are, the lesser the boost in power is. Since Kale and Caulifla are not equal to each other in the same forms, base Kale implied to be stronger than SSJ1 Caulifla, they wouldn't receive the same boost as Vegetto. By how much less I would call unknown, due to the ambiguous nature of what kind of boost Potara merging gives unequal fusing parties.

[Bergamo]

But a Kale not at the height of her power, fused with Caulfla's power via Patorra is still stronger than a full power Kale alone.
Also don't forget that the Patorra's power is so great, Elder Shin stated Goku won't even need to transform into SS before fusing [Chapter: 502].

The reason Vegetto was so absurdly powerful was because Goku and Vegeta were equivalent to each other in the same forms; if I'm not mistaken, Potara works at its maximum potential when both fusing parties are equal to each other: the less equal they are, the lesser the boost in power is. Since Kale and Caulifla are not equal to each other in the same forms, base Kale implied to be stronger than SSJ1 Caulifla, they wouldn't receive the same boost as Vegetto. By how much less I would call unknown, due to the ambiguous nature of what kind of boost Potara merging gives unequal fusing parties.

Kibito and Supreme Kai were roughly equal, and their fusion was barely an upgrade of the power they were at individually.

[Black Hawk]

Kibito and Supreme Kai were roughly equal, and their fusion was barely an upgrade of the power they were at individually.

Were Kibit and Shin equal? I was always under the impression that Kibit was more comparable to base Gohan and that Shin exceeded Piccolo by an unknown amount (likely not by enough to put him on equal footing with SSJ1 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan).

[Bergamo]

Kibito and Supreme Kai were roughly equal, and their fusion was barely an upgrade of the power they were at individually.

Were Kibit and Shin equal? I was always under the impression that Kibit was more comparable to base Gohan and that Shin exceeded Piccolo by an unknown amount (likely not by enough to put him on equal footing with SSJ1 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan).

Kibito was noticeably stronger than base Gohan, and Supreme Kai was stronger than Frieza. It's potentially a pretty wide gap, but nowhere near as wide as Kale and Caulifla or Black and Zamas. He still should have gotten a reasonable boost.

[Black Hawk]

Kibito was noticeably stronger than base Gohan, and Supreme Kai was stronger than Frieza. It's potentially a pretty wide gap, but nowhere near as wide as Kale and Caulifla or Black and Zamas. He still should have gotten a reasonable boost.

Now that I've done a brief analysis, I'm kind of torn on just how strong Kibit is. On one hand, he couldn't so much as move the Z Sword, whereas Gohan was able to swing it around with some difficulty before growing accustomed to it; on the other hand, however, Kibit was able to keep up with Zamas, whose future counterpart was comparable to SSJ1 Goku, to at least a small degree. Depending on whether not Zamas and Future Zamas are equal to each other or at least roughly comparable, this creates a bit of a contradiction regarding the nature of Kibit's power.

If we go with Kibit being around base Gohan's level, then the power difference between Kibit and Shin makes Kibitoshin's relatively small boost in power makes sense; if we go with Kibit being around Future Zamas' level, then the power difference between Kibit and Shin is much less significant and should have resulted in a stronger Kibitoshin.

However, now that I think about it, the exact nature of Kibitoshin's power is relatively unknown as well. He was ready to go help Goku take on Boo but was informed that he wouldn't be able to do much, which makes sense, considering Boo was Evil Boo and significantly stronger than even SSJ3 Goku. To my knowledge, there aren't any other instances that imply a relative level for Kibitoshin's power. What a mess!

[Miracles]

The reason Vegetto was so absurdly powerful was because Goku and Vegeta were equivalent to each other in the same forms; if I'm not mistaken, Potara works at its maximum potential when both fusing parties are equal to each other: the less equal they are, the lesser the boost in power is. Since Kale and Caulifla are not equal to each other in the same forms, base Kale implied to be stronger than SSJ1 Caulifla, they wouldn't receive the same boost as Vegetto. By how much less I would call unknown, due to the ambiguous nature of what kind of boost Potara merging gives unequal fusing parties.

We know Ultimate Gohan was way out of Goku's weight class, still tried to fuse with him. Is Ultimate Gohan still going to be stronger than Goku and Ultimate Gohan merged?

We Know Goku had SSJ3 and Vegeta did not. Vegeta was way outside his pay grade too but the Elder Kai states since those two are rivals and top masters in the universe this is what made the fusion strongest.

[Black Hawk]

We know Ultimate Gohan was way out of Goku's weight class, still tried to fuse with him. Is Ultimate Gohan still going to be stronger than Goku and Ultimate Gohan merged?

We Know Goku had SSJ3 and Vegeta did not. Vegeta was way outside his pay grade too but the Elder Kai states since those two are rivals and top masters in the universe this is what made the fusion strongest.

That's a fair point, but, if I'm not mistaken (I'm honestly unsure on this one), given that we see Gohan power up to his Ultimate state in later stories (Battle of Gods, Tournament of Power), his power in base, SSJ1, and SSJ2 should be roughly equal to Goku's, which would likely provide a similar boost to Vegetto. I'm not sure what this would mean for his Ultimate state, however, regarding whether Kuhan would be able to use it.

I always interpreted the Elder's use of the word 'rivals' to mean rivals in power as opposed to rivals in nature. If that's indeed the case, Goku and Vegeta equaling each other in the same forms (base, SSJ1, and SSJ2) would make them perfect rivals in power, which would provide for a maximum boost via Potara merging.

If my interpretation of what 'rivals' means is correct, Kale and Caulifla might still receive a boost of unknown magnitude, but certainly not to the extent that Goku and Vegeta received or that Goku and Gohan would receive (assuming Gohan indeed still has base, SSJ1, and SSJ2 forms roughly equal to Goku's).

[Bergamo]

We know Ultimate Gohan was way out of Goku's weight class, still tried to fuse with him. Is Ultimate Gohan still going to be stronger than Goku and Ultimate Gohan merged?

We Know Goku had SSJ3 and Vegeta did not. Vegeta was way outside his pay grade too but the Elder Kai states since those two are rivals and top masters in the universe this is what made the fusion strongest.

That's a fair point, but, if I'm not mistaken (I'm honestly unsure on this one), given that we see Gohan power up to his Ultimate state in later stories (Battle of Gods, Tournament of Power), his power in base, SSJ1, and SSJ2 should be roughly equal to Goku's, which would likely provide a similar boost to Vegetto. I'm not sure what this would mean for his Ultimate state, however, regarding whether Kuhan would be able to use it.

I always interpreted the Elder's use of the word 'rivals' to mean rivals in power as opposed to rivals in nature. If that's indeed the case, Goku and Vegeta equaling each other in the same forms (base, SSJ1, and SSJ2) would make them perfect rivals in power, which would provide for a maximum boost via Potara merging.

If my interpretation of what 'rivals' means is correct, Kale and Caulifla might still receive a boost of unknown magnitude, but certainly not to the extent that Goku and Vegeta received or that Goku and Gohan would receive (assuming Gohan indeed still has base, SSJ1, and SSJ2 forms roughly equal to Goku's).

You have Goku who is 4 times stronger than Vegeta getting a massive boost, and you have Goten and Trunks who are practically dead even also getting a massive boost. You then have Kibito and Supreme Kai who are probably close enough in power, and they get a negligible power boost. I'm not convinced that closeness is related to power boost.

[Marlowe89]

Vados not mentioning the combination of the raw power from fusion

That was my whole point. Your point was that she and other characters hinted at it when they clearly didn't.

Not all Potara fusions are equal and some of them can even potentially make its users weaker. Goku said this word-for-word in the original manga. You're attributing a trait to the technique that isn't always applicable.

[Black Hawk]

You have Goku who is 4 times stronger than Vegeta getting a massive boost, and you have Goten and Trunks who are practically dead even also getting a massive boost. You then have Kibito and Supreme Kai who are probably close enough in power, and they get a negligible power boost. I'm not convinced that closeness is related to power boost.

Nonono, I'm sorry; I should have been more specific: If my interpretation is correct, two parties who intend to merge being equal in the same forms results in the maximum possible boost for Potara merging. Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3, but he equals Goku in base, SSJ1, and SSJ2, so, while Vegeta is missing a form, his capabilities are otherwise rival Goku's. The absence of a transformation doesn't make them unequal in the other forms they both have; SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta still rival each other, as we saw in their battle.

With regard to Gotenks, the Elder stated Potara merging to be superior to Metamaru merging, which implies that Potara merging has a greater potential for boosted power of a fused being than does Metamaru fusion. For example, let's say that two parties want to merge via the Potara; one very slightly exceeds the other in power. While the fused result may not receive the maximum possible boost, it would still very likely exceed Metamaru's best (and, really, only) merging boost based on the Elder's assessment that Potara merging is simply superior. I admit that this could simply have been in reference to what was then the permanence of Potara merging, but, with that having effectively been retconned, if Potara is still to remain superior to Metamaru, it must exceed it in a different manner than time allotment.

Given the general consensus (I can't recall the reasoning for it off the top of my head at the present moment, unfortunately.) that Vegetto's power exceeds Gogeta's, it would make sense that power is that different manner.

Again, all of this is my interpretation based on what the series (primarily the manga) has shown me. I wouldn't be surprised if various forms of Dragon Ball media contradict any details I just mentioned.