Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:40 am

Broly was stated to be "The Strongest Enemy, A Saiyan"

Also rule of DB especially in the main continuity is that each antagonist is stronger than previous one with the exception of Beerus and Golden Freeza.

Also we know that Goku has been training non stop post ToP from one of the snippets Herms translated so Broly would be fighting presumably much stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta than their ToP Selves

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:29 pm

MoscoSama wrote:Also we know that Goku has been training non stop post ToP from one of the snippets Herms translated so Broly would be fighting presumably much stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta than their ToP Selves
Sure, but is not like they had a hell of training to surpass Jiren on their Blue forms, but knowing Toriyama if it is right that Broly is indeed stronger we'll get a proper statement in the movie.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:42 pm

MoscoSama wrote:Broly was stated to be "The Strongest Enemy, A Saiyan"
"Biggest\Greatest", not "Strongest"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:33 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Um maybe you should actually go back and read the manga again before calling someone a liar? The whole my Bulma scene happened and Krillin asked "since when was Vegeta this strong?" indicating he got the rage boost.
I did, can you not read? I asked where was it stated Vegeta's power there was temporary because its nowhere to be found, Kuririn asking when did Vegeta have such strength in no way means his boost is temporary so try again.
Well if he has a similar ssj2 grade 2 type thing that Trunks has, but if it's just regular ssj2 it doesn't make sense for it to be that strong.
What are you talking about? The characters simply have different boosts in SSJ2 from each other, nothing more, nothing less.
If Vegeta who worked under Frieza didn't know of his forms, why would his younger brother who was banished and didn't even work for Frieza know of them?
I can make up a bunch of theories, maybe Sorbet relayed this message across all sectors, maybe the Namekians told him, but ultimately its pointless as it changes nothing.
And Goku doesn't need to contradict Tarbel as Abo and Cado are Frieza level, just not full power Frieza level. Frieza's resting power level is 530,000 and that's about what they reached. Maybe they reached regular final form Frieza level as that's his most known form fan wise, but not full power Frieza.
Yes he does, that's the point of comparison to begin with, god, this feels annoyingly similar to people making excuses for the Dabura = Cell comparison, just with Freeza this time around. If Abo and Cado were nowhere near as strong as Freeza at his best Goku and anyone else would have simply corrected, but no need to because he wasn't wrong and don't act like the characters don't do this.

Trunks: Mystic Gohan is as strong as our Super Gotenks.
Goten: No, he's stronger.
Trunks: Oh, my bad.
Not according to official statements.
You mean official statements of Tarble and Tagoma stating base Gohan > Piccolo > Namek era Freeza?
Like I said there is really no power contradictions unless you do what you are doing and use BoG and guides with your argument. Just look at what Naruto did. Naruto the Last and the Boruto movie were canon. In the anime they re did the Boruto movie but not the Last movie, meaning the Boruto anime kept one movie as canon and retconned the other. You can't just say if you take one as canon you have to take the other. Toyotaro decided to re do the BoG arc, but left the RoF arc alone as I guess he felt like he had nothing to add.
I couldn't careless what Naruto does, we are talking about DB, stay on topic, until you have proof don't force your unproven speculation onto others to accept by using two different continuities and treating them as one and the same for obvious reasons.
So the multiple years of Whis training did nothing for them? ssj2 Vegeta beating someone above buu saga ssj3 tier doesn't prove they've gotten stronger?
It proves his SS2 got stronger, it doesn't prove jack for his SS or base form or Goku's base-SS3 that are more or less not that much different than his Buu era self during the Zamasu saga. Here is what we do know, how ever long they trained with Whis plus 3 additional years of training in the time chamber and all Vegeta's SS form is able to accomplish during the U6T Saga is being shown and stated too weak to budge 1,000 tons. SS is a 50x boost correct, well, 1,000 tons divided by 50 tons equals 20 tons, that makes base Vegeta even weaker than Buu era base Goku who's stated incapable of handling 40 tons. So yeah, Vegeta's SS is inferior to Buu Saga SSJ Goku and he's superior to SS Cabba who scales to SS Caulifla. With the exception of Kale the U6 saiyans are no stronger than Buu Saga SS Vegeta or SS Goku.
That seems to convenient for your argument. Vegeta just happened to only make his ssj2 form stronger, yet they are always training in base with Whis. In the anime Whis flat out said they were training to make their base stronger (ya that's not the manga but you get my point). Though in the manga Whis did have them have a transformations prohibited fight.
*Points to above* so much for Whis training making them much stronger than before in their none-god forms.
So you think they would be shocked by such a small boost and actually expected it to be smaller?
I need you to read what I said as you are not comprehending a single thing I'm saying. I'm saying actual numbers, not meaningless phrases that could mean anything. Trunks described 17 and 18 as impossibly/outrageously strong (His versions, not the past version that are stronger) and yet during this time past 17 and 18 where less than 2x Trunks own level at the time. Stuff like that is said for even smaller gaps in power. How people react or respond to Freeza's power tell us absolutely nothing about what tangible extent he increased. Phrases such as "He's very strong, impossible, how did he get so strong, such a huge ki, and blah blah blah" tells us nothing concrete.

They all knew Frieza was powering up, so if they were surprised to begin with that would be one thing, but Goku knew Frieza wasn't going all out and stated so, so for Goku to be shocked by how much Frieza actually did power up it couldn't have just been a small percentage boost. Now I agree if I started throwing out numbers like "golden Frieza has to be at least a 50x boost" or something, then it would just me making opinions, but it's pretty clear by dialog and writers intent that golden Frieza is just "a shimmering facade" as Frieza himself said. It was so much more power Frieza also had problems regulating it.
Full power SSG was 60% and like I said we aren't talking about BoG here we are talking about RoF.
But if we are talking movie continuity
final form Frieza<base Goku<<ssj Goku<SSG Goku<SSB Goku<Golden Frieza<<Beerus
The power down from SSG to SS was negligible to the point Goku noticed no difference in power (And wonder why he was fighting at the same level if he didn't have the form anymore) so the same thing essentially, also, RoF is literally continuing from BoGs so the stated strength difference from Toriyama still remains. Hell, you could make the jump from white Freeza to Golden Freeza a 2x increase and absolutely nothing would change in the film, it remains the same.
Ya I don't think a already tired Freeza would waist putting in a lot of energy to a ki blast meant for Krillin.
I don't think Freeza gives a shit about holding back against who he's killing.
His full power was more than a 2x boost, but no he didn't necessarily need a 2x boost to beat perfect Cell, but that's because perfect Cell wasn't insanely stronger than his regular ssj form. Strength and speed wise he was able to keep up.
ssj Gohan<perfect Cell<=50% ssj2 Gohan<super perfect Cell<ssj2 Gohan
His full power unagumented by rage or his full power augmented by rage as those are two very different things.
And I'm saying that's not what was explained. In the movie Goku flat out says "I experienced the power of SSG and now I've learned to harness that power" He did not say "I experienced SSG and this is what happens when I go ssj now".
Maybe that's because you're relying on the dub that is known for not giving exactly faithful translations from time to time.

Here is what is said in the original dialogue, courtesy of Herms from the fact checker thread.

Freeza: "You've simply become a Super Saiyan, have you not?"
Goku: "Actually, that's not quite right. It's a little complicated and hard to explain, but... This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."

Significance: After absorbing SSG into his base form in the Battle of Gods arc, Goku transforms into what he describes as the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God", which as Freeza mentions is quite a mouthful. This is the exact same line from Revival of "F", no twists about it.


That matches exactly with what the official supplement and guides state for RoF as well.
Ya my bad, but either way he doesn't say by how much stronger. Like I've previously mentioned, it could mean they are only a bit above buu saga tier, and I think that is a valid opinion, but that statement isn't enough to prove that they aren't a couple times stronger than buu saga tier saiyans either. We just know they are stronger than cell games Gohan.
it does, they simply state stronger, if it was by any relevant extent they would put extra emphasis on it like "Far/way/much/greatly exceed" which are terms they have used to described significant difference. At best they are more or less comparable to each other, whatever increases they may or may not have is marginal, this is consistent with the previous arc where SS Vegeta is shown inferior to Buu arc SS Goku in regars to using the same weight measurements they train with that shows they haven't progressed much in regards to their non-god forms, well, minus Vegeta's SSJ2 that he improved the boost multiplier for like Future Trunks that is.

You have zero proof they are stronger than their Buu arc selves, zero, while all other evidence points exactly to what I'm saying.
Also if you want to be consistent you have to accept base Caulifla is weaker than namek ssj Goku as Frieza only said she was stronger than the first ssj he fought after she went ssj. If you don't accept that, which happens backs up buu saga base Goku being weaker than namek Frieza, you are cherry picking power statements.
Context is important, this tell us jack about base Caulifla other than the obvious fact which every fan already knew that SS Caulifla was stronger than SS Goku (Namek Saga). We know Kid Buu for instance is several times stronger Perfect Cell due to established facts of what we know about the boosts of the SSJ forms here and there, yet in the narrative they only state Buu is simply stronger than Cell with no added adjective for further emphasis. Kind of like how some characters state a SS is stronger than their base form while not mentioning any meaningful descriptions such as many/several times stronger.
The evidence would be ssj Caulifla beating pushing final form Frieza and even annoying golden Frieza, ssj2 Vegeta beating ssj Black who beat ssj2 Trunks, ssj Goku fighting with Hit pretty evenly, and the fact they trained with an angel for years, overcame Frieza, fought in the U6 tournament, and fought Black. They should definitely be a bit stronger at the least.
SS Caulifla scales to SS Cabba who's inferior to SS Vegeta who's inferior to Buu Saga SS Goku. All that shows is that current FF Freeza is inferior to Buu era super saiyans. SS2 Vegeta and Future Trunks are outright shown and stated to have different yield boosts for their SS2 states which tells us jack about their SS forms, SS Goku fighting on par with a highly suppressed Hit tells us jack other than that suppressed Hit scales to SS Goku who scales to SS Vegeta who scales to his Buu era self. They overcame Freeza with their god forms which tells us jack about their SS form, every single thing you said mentioned is either vauge, unclear, or tells us nothing concrete about the gains of their SS form which you seem to believe is leaps and bounds beyond their Buu era selves when the narrative says differently.
It's not a problem, it just seems to have been retconned/ignored.
For the films, no, but then again you were the were trying to use the films to fill in the blanks of the different continuity of the manga where they simply don't fit did you not?
As where everyone's power lies, we may find out more in the ToP. If Gohan goes mystic and they say he is about as strong as he was in the Buu saga, we will have something to gauge off of.
One can only hope.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:40 pm

With regards to the above.

ssj goku could easily lift 40 tons in the otherworld training. ssj vegeta (u6 arc) couldn't lift 1000 tons.

So ssj vegeta (u6 arc) is less than 25 times stronger than ssj goku (otherworld training).

Which would fit with my belief that in the manga continuity, the god transformations/golden form is where toyotaro puts characters powers as opposed to absurd base/golden forms

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:43 pm

lord turbo wrote: I did, can you not read? I asked where was it stated Vegeta's power there was temporary because its nowhere to be found, Kuririn asking when did Vegeta have such strength in no way means his boost is temporary so try again.
I think it was pretty clear it was supposed to be the same rage boost. Vegeta was angry and attacked, Krillin was surprised at that power. Vegeta trains on Earth and Krillin should be able to feel his power when he goes ssj2.
What are you talking about? The characters simply have different boosts in SSJ2 from each other, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe, though nothing like that is ever stated. I feel like something as big as Vegeta's ssj2 form having a bigger multipliers than Goku's ssj3 would be addressed.
Yes he does, that's the point of comparison to begin with, god, this feels annoyingly similar to people making excuses for the Dabura = Cell comparison, just with Freeza this time around. If Abo and Cado were nowhere near as strong as Freeza at his best Goku and anyone else would have simply corrected, but no need to because he wasn't wrong and don't act like the characters don't do this.
I don't see anyone correctly Tarble in that situation. The point is they were as strong as the guy who ruled over the universe, which was Frieza in his first form. He also compared them to the Ginyu force as if it was impressive, and then the next step would be first form Frieza level.
Trunks: Mystic Gohan is as strong as our Super Gotenks.
Goten: No, he's stronger.
Trunks: Oh, my bad.
But it's actually relevant there as it's about beating Buu and Trunks even mentions super Gotenks and in the scan I'm looking at it seems he is being cocky saying "well...maybe just a bit".
You mean official statements of Tarble and Tagoma stating base Gohan > Piccolo > Namek era Freeza?
RoF Piccolo was nerfed, and statements that come from writers that aren't Toriyama shouldn't be taken as seriously.
I couldn't careless what Naruto does, we are talking about DB, stay on topic, until you have proof don't force your unproven speculation onto others to accept by using two different continuities and treating them as one and the same for obvious reasons.
Actually that was relevant if you read what I said. You said because RoF is a squeal to BoG that means it can't be used as BoG contradicts the manga. But if other companies take one movie as canon to the anime but replace the other movie, I don't see why the same can't be done here. Toyotar skipped the manga arc of RoF because there was a movie out of it already and he already did the manga version for most of it. Flash back scans in the Super manga show scenes that look like they were ripped from the movie. You could say there would be some slight differences, but the movie as of now is the best thing to fit in the gap for someone who wants to just read the manga. If someone who was just reading the manga wouldn't you tell them to watch the RoF movie to know what happened there?
It proves his SS2 got stronger, it doesn't prove jack for his SS or base form or Goku's base-SS3 that are more or less not that much different than his Buu era self during the Zamasu saga. Here is what we do know, how ever long they trained with Whis plus 3 additional years of training in the time chamber and all Vegeta's SS form is able to accomplish during the U6T Saga is being shown and stated too weak to budge 1,000 tons. SS is a 50x boost correct, well, 1,000 tons divided by 50 tons equals 20 tons, that makes base Vegeta even weaker than Buu era base Goku who's stated incapable of handling 40 tons. So yeah, Vegeta's SS is inferior to Buu Saga SSJ Goku and he's superior to SS Cabba who scales to SS Caulifla. With the exception of Kale the U6 saiyans are no stronger than Buu Saga SS Vegeta or SS Goku.
Power levels and weight lifting have clearly never been linear.

I need you to read what I said as you are not comprehending a single thing I'm saying. I'm saying actual numbers, not meaningless phrases that could mean anything. Trunks described 17 and 18 as impossibly/outrageously strong (His versions, not the past version that are stronger) and yet during this time past 17 and 18 where less than 2x Trunks own level at the time. Stuff like that is said for even smaller gaps in power. How people react or respond to Freeza's power tell us absolutely nothing about what tangible extent he increased. Phrases such as "He's very strong, impossible, how did he get so strong, such a huge ki, and blah blah blah" tells us nothing concrete.
Ya and if Frieza just showed up golden what you just said would be valid. But his golden form was clearly meant to be a big difference from his final form. The anime and manga back this up.
The power down from SSG to SS was negligible to the point Goku noticed no difference in power (And wonder why he was fighting at the same level if he didn't have the form anymore) so the same thing essentially, also, RoF is literally continuing from BoGs so the stated strength difference from Toriyama still remains. Hell, you could make the jump from white Freeza to Golden Freeza a 2x increase and absolutely nothing would change in the film, it remains the same.
The power up was temporary. If it wasn't he could have went ssj3 and beaten Beerus. Goku even jumped to SSG again during the fight even more proving it was probably temporary as he still had some SSG power left in the tank.
I don't think Freeza gives a shit about holding back against who he's killing.
I didn't say he was holding back, but it's not like Vegeta deflected a full power death ball.
You have zero proof they are stronger than their Buu arc selves, zero, while all other evidence points exactly to what I'm saying.
Well they should be at least a bit stronger.
Context is important, this tell us jack about base Caulifla other than the obvious fact which every fan already knew that SS Caulifla was stronger than SS Goku (Namek Saga). We know Kid Buu for instance is several times stronger Perfect Cell due to established facts of what we know about the boosts of the SSJ forms here and there, yet in the narrative they only state Buu is simply stronger than Cell with no added adjective for further emphasis. Kind of like how some characters state a SS is stronger than their base form while not mentioning any meaningful descriptions such as many/several times stronger.
But why would Frieza be mention ssj Caulifla is much stronger than the first ssj he fought if her base was already much stronger? It's the same as the ssj2 Trunks and Goku statement.
For the films, no, but then again you were the were trying to use the films to fill in the blanks of the different continuity of the manga where they simply don't fit did you not?
I said RoF by itself fits pretty well into the hole in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:43 pm

lord turbo wrote: SS Caulifla scales to SS Cabba who's inferior to SS Vegeta who's inferior to Buu Saga SS Goku.
What? Why?

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive but this actually sounds stupid.
MoscoSama wrote:With regards to the above.

ssj goku could easily lift 40 tons in the otherworld training. ssj vegeta (u6 arc) couldn't lift 1000 tons.

So ssj vegeta (u6 arc) is less than 25 times stronger than ssj goku (otherworld training).

Which would fit with my belief that in the manga continuity, the god transformations/golden form is where toyotaro puts characters powers as opposed to absurd base/golden forms
[/quote]

Kid Goku was lifting a car on Chapter 1, what is about 1 ton. I guess Boo Goku is 40 times stronger than Kid Goku when he first appeared then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:26 am

Base Goku lifted well over 1,000 tons in the anime so the manga was pretty odd in that regard.

Image

If Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't even lift 1,000 tons wouldn't it mean that Base Vegeta wouldnt even be able to lift 20 tons?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:49 am

lord turbo wrote:Vegeta's SS form is able to accomplish during the U6T Saga is being shown and stated too weak to budge 1,000 tons. SS is a 50x boost correct, well, 1,000 tons divided by 50 tons equals 20 tons, that makes base Vegeta even weaker than Buu era base Goku who's stated incapable of handling 40 tons. So yeah, Vegeta's SS is inferior to Buu Saga SSJ Goku and he's superior to SS Cabba who scales to SS Caulifla. With the exception of Kale the U6 saiyans are no stronger than Buu Saga SS Vegeta or SS Goku.
I really don't' see how this can be seen as anything other than an inconsistency. How could you reasonably conclude that this is an indication that U6 Arc Vegeta is weaker than Buu Arc Base Goku? There's absolutely no reason why this would be the case whatsoever and it defeats the entire narrative that Goku and Vegeta are currently equals and are constantly pushing themselves to get stronger. This is just an inconsistency on Toyotaro's part and just an example of his incompetence. This does not in any way serve as a reliable gauge of Goku/Vegeta's power in relation to their Buu Arc selves like you seem to be implying that it is. Goku is able to push enormous boulders and lift cars that are easily several tons during early DB. By this logic, Goku only got a couple times stronger from his time training with Roshi to training with King Kai in the afterlife. It just makes absolutely no sense why Vegeta would be weaker than Buu Arc Goku at this point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:23 am

Bullza wrote:Base Goku lifted well over 1,000 tons in the anime so the manga was pretty odd in that regard.

Image

If Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't even lift 1,000 tons wouldn't it mean that Base Vegeta wouldnt even be able to lift 20 tons?
Both Base Goku and Vegeta were equal when they were training in the HTC before the U6 vs U7 Tourney, so how this prove that Base Vegeta is automatically weaker than Base Goku ? Infact, Base Goku in the manga never lifted a large tank that weighs over a 1000 ton. These are different continuities, man.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:43 am

MoscoSama wrote:Broly was stated to be "The Strongest Enemy, A Saiyan"

Also rule of DB especially in the main continuity is that each antagonist is stronger than previous one with the exception of Beerus and Golden Freeza.

Also we know that Goku has been training non stop post ToP from one of the snippets Herms translated so Broly would be fighting presumably much stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta than their ToP Selves
While i don’t doubt that Goku has been training since the ToP, i don’t remember reading any confirmation of it. Do you have the link to Herms’ translation of the statement?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:52 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:Broly was stated to be "The Strongest Enemy, A Saiyan"

Also rule of DB especially in the main continuity is that each antagonist is stronger than previous one with the exception of Beerus and Golden Freeza.

Also we know that Goku has been training non stop post ToP from one of the snippets Herms translated so Broly would be fighting presumably much stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta than their ToP Selves
While i don’t doubt that Goku has been training since the ToP, i don’t remember reading any confirmation of it. Do you have the link to Herms’ translation of the statement?
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1020175229241327617

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Aizamasu » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:58 am

lord turbo wrote:Vegeta's SS form is able to accomplish during the U6T Saga is being shown and stated too weak to budge 1,000 tons. SS is a 50x boost correct, well, 1,000 tons divided by 50 tons equals 20 tons, that makes base Vegeta even weaker than Buu era base Goku who's stated incapable of handling 40 tons. So yeah, Vegeta's SS is inferior to Buu Saga SSJ Goku and he's superior to SS Cabba who scales to SS Caulifla. With the exception of Kale the U6 saiyans are no stronger than Buu Saga SS Vegeta or SS Goku.
I think that either Toyotaro wasn't thinking when Vegeta couldn't lift 1,000 tons or the manga isn't written thinking about the official SSJ multipliers. I don't think that Toriyama was thinking about the multipliers after Freeza saga when he was writing the original manga so it wouldn't surprise me if Toyotaro wasn't either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:24 am

lord turbo wrote: Here is what we do know, how ever long they trained with Whis plus 3 additional years of training in the time chamber and all Vegeta's SS form is able to accomplish during the U6T Saga is being shown and stated too weak to budge 1,000 tons. SS is a 50x boost correct, well, 1,000 tons divided by 50 tons equals 20 tons, that makes base Vegeta even weaker than Buu era base Goku who's stated incapable of handling 40 tons. So yeah, Vegeta's SS is inferior to Buu Saga SSJ Goku and he's superior to SS Cabba who scales to SS Caulifla.
Well, that just means base Goku can't lift 40 tons.

If base Vegeta can't lift 20 tons during the U6 arc, that's not automatically worse than Goku's "feat" (or lack thereof) because <40 and <20 establish no exact specifications in regards to how many tons they can actually lift. If they're still equal as the story portrays them to be - and if standard Super Saiyan multipliers still hold - it would simply mean that neither of them can lift 20 tons, which doesn't contradict anything in the Buu arc.

And before anyone decides to bring up calcs of other visual feats, remember that those are based on fan extrapolations and not what a mangaka would actively think about while drawing the page. They're in no way equivalent to stated dialogue, and if they were, you could easily point out contradictons in a large variety of series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:25 pm

The 1000 ton thing is simply an inconcisistency typical of Toyotaro's writing. The Buu arc scene Goku lifts, but struggles to do so, with 40 tons of weights. See this scene is hard to gauge because he is wearing bands on each of his limbs which should be significantly harder than simply lifting something that weighs 40 tons. Goku lifted things ATLEAST 40 tons throughout original Dragon Ball let alone Z. He lifted several enormous boulders that were obviously tens of tons. The Toyotaro apologists claim that because the weight if these boulders and similar weights arent explicitly stated, they arent to be considered here. However, it is obvious that when it was written there would have to be a significant lapse in judgement for these boulders to be considered anything less than several tons. For Vegeta who is equal to Goku during this time frame to be unable to lift the equivalent of 20 tons in base, is just a blatant contradiction of the previous story. Especially after the training with Whis and the 3 years in the ROSAT. Additionally, since this took place at some point during the 7 years of training, the Goku we saw struggling to lift the 40 tons is significantly weaker than the one we actually saw during the Buu Arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:47 pm

PFM18 wrote:The 1000 ton thing is simply an inconcisistency typical of Toyotaro's writing. The Buu arc scene Goku lifts, but struggles to do so, with 40 tons of weights. See this scene is hard to gauge because he is wearing bands on each of his limbs which should be significantly harder than simply lifting something that weighs 40 tons. Goku lifted things ATLEAST 40 tons throughout original Dragon Ball let alone Z. He lifted several enormous boulders that were obviously tens of tons. The Toyotaro apologists claim that because the weight if these boulders and similar weights arent explicitly stated, they arent to be considered here. However, it is obvious that when it was written there would have to be a significant lapse in judgement for these boulders to be considered anything less than several tons. For Vegeta who is equal to Goku during this time frame to be unable to lift the equivalent of 20 tons in base, is just a blatant contradiction of the previous story. Especially after the training with Whis and the 3 years in the ROSAT. Additionally, since this took place at some point during the 7 years of training, the Goku we saw struggling to lift the 40 tons is significantly weaker than the one we actually saw during the Buu Arc.
You're assuming that since vegeta in ssj can't lift 1,000 tons, he can't lift 20 tons in base. That's an ASSUMPTION, not an fact. Therefore you can't hold your headcanon (of applying multipliers to max weight lift) as anything truly against toyotaro. Unless you're able to prove that with every multplyed power level, you weight lift increases by the same time, you're just going off into headcanon and holding your headcanon as canon. There's no plothooe with vegeta ssj not lifting 1,000 tons since no weaker forms before has been able to lift 1,000 tons. FACTS.
Your case has been dismissed...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:21 pm

1345521 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The 1000 ton thing is simply an inconcisistency typical of Toyotaro's writing. The Buu arc scene Goku lifts, but struggles to do so, with 40 tons of weights. See this scene is hard to gauge because he is wearing bands on each of his limbs which should be significantly harder than simply lifting something that weighs 40 tons. Goku lifted things ATLEAST 40 tons throughout original Dragon Ball let alone Z. He lifted several enormous boulders that were obviously tens of tons. The Toyotaro apologists claim that because the weight if these boulders and similar weights arent explicitly stated, they arent to be considered here. However, it is obvious that when it was written there would have to be a significant lapse in judgement for these boulders to be considered anything less than several tons. For Vegeta who is equal to Goku during this time frame to be unable to lift the equivalent of 20 tons in base, is just a blatant contradiction of the previous story. Especially after the training with Whis and the 3 years in the ROSAT. Additionally, since this took place at some point during the 7 years of training, the Goku we saw struggling to lift the 40 tons is significantly weaker than the one we actually saw during the Buu Arc.
You're assuming that since vegeta in ssj can't lift 1,000 tons, he can't lift 20 tons in base. That's an ASSUMPTION, not an fact. Therefore you can't hold your headcanon (of applying multipliers to max weight lift) as anything truly against toyotaro. Unless you're able to prove that with every multplyed power level, you weight lift increases by the same time, you're just going off into headcanon and holding your headcanon as canon. There's no plothooe with vegeta ssj not lifting 1,000 tons since no weaker forms before has been able to lift 1,000 tons. FACTS.
Your case has been dismissed...
SSJ is a 50x multiplier. Not being able to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ is the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in Base. That's just a basic application of the phrase "power multiplier." There's no reach as far as conclusions being made here. Even so, let's assume that for some ridiculous reason Vegeta is unable to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ but can lift 20 tons in his Base. That is still only half of what Goku was able to lift during the 7 year time gap between the Cell and Buu Arcs. Logically Vegeta by this point should be several fold stronger than that, not half as strong. It is just a blatant contradiction of the original source material and yet another example example of Toyotaro's incompetence. Nothing more than that. This scene should not be used as a reliable way to scale characters like was used earlier in this thread.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:50 pm

PFM18 wrote:
1345521 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:The 1000 ton thing is simply an inconcisistency typical of Toyotaro's writing. The Buu arc scene Goku lifts, but struggles to do so, with 40 tons of weights. See this scene is hard to gauge because he is wearing bands on each of his limbs which should be significantly harder than simply lifting something that weighs 40 tons. Goku lifted things ATLEAST 40 tons throughout original Dragon Ball let alone Z. He lifted several enormous boulders that were obviously tens of tons. The Toyotaro apologists claim that because the weight if these boulders and similar weights arent explicitly stated, they arent to be considered here. However, it is obvious that when it was written there would have to be a significant lapse in judgement for these boulders to be considered anything less than several tons. For Vegeta who is equal to Goku during this time frame to be unable to lift the equivalent of 20 tons in base, is just a blatant contradiction of the previous story. Especially after the training with Whis and the 3 years in the ROSAT. Additionally, since this took place at some point during the 7 years of training, the Goku we saw struggling to lift the 40 tons is significantly weaker than the one we actually saw during the Buu Arc.
You're assuming that since vegeta in ssj can't lift 1,000 tons, he can't lift 20 tons in base. That's an ASSUMPTION, not an fact. Therefore you can't hold your headcanon (of applying multipliers to max weight lift) as anything truly against toyotaro. Unless you're able to prove that with every multplyed power level, you weight lift increases by the same time, you're just going off into headcanon and holding your headcanon as canon. There's no plothooe with vegeta ssj not lifting 1,000 tons since no weaker forms before has been able to lift 1,000 tons. FACTS.
Your case has been dismissed...
SSJ is a 50x multiplier. Not being able to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ is the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in Base. That's just a basic application of the phrase "power multiplier." There's no reach as far as conclusions being made here. Even so, let's assume that for some ridiculous reason Vegeta is unable to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ but can lift 20 tons in his Base. That is still only half of what Goku was able to lift during the 7 year time gap between the Cell and Buu Arcs. Logically Vegeta by this point should be several fold stronger than that, not half as strong. It is just a blatant contradiction of the original source material and yet another example example of Toyotaro's incompetence. Nothing more than that. This scene should not be used as a reliable way to scale characters like was used earlier in this thread.
NOPE. All you're using is headcanon and what ifs to accuse someone an offcial writer of making a plothole. Not valid. Vegeta as a ssj in universe 6 arc CANT LIFT 1,000 and it's not a plothole. FACTS. Now I can give you some real plotholes and inconsistencies with the anime, but since you still haven't responded to my essay of me just exposing how bad episode 130 is, I'll leave supers anime alone...for now...
No plothole or real inconsistency with OG DB manga. Sorry... :wave:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:56 pm

1345521 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
1345521 wrote: You're assuming that since vegeta in ssj can't lift 1,000 tons, he can't lift 20 tons in base. That's an ASSUMPTION, not an fact. Therefore you can't hold your headcanon (of applying multipliers to max weight lift) as anything truly against toyotaro. Unless you're able to prove that with every multplyed power level, you weight lift increases by the same time, you're just going off into headcanon and holding your headcanon as canon. There's no plothooe with vegeta ssj not lifting 1,000 tons since no weaker forms before has been able to lift 1,000 tons. FACTS.
Your case has been dismissed...
SSJ is a 50x multiplier. Not being able to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ is the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in Base. That's just a basic application of the phrase "power multiplier." There's no reach as far as conclusions being made here. Even so, let's assume that for some ridiculous reason Vegeta is unable to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ but can lift 20 tons in his Base. That is still only half of what Goku was able to lift during the 7 year time gap between the Cell and Buu Arcs. Logically Vegeta by this point should be several fold stronger than that, not half as strong. It is just a blatant contradiction of the original source material and yet another example example of Toyotaro's incompetence. Nothing more than that. This scene should not be used as a reliable way to scale characters like was used earlier in this thread.
NOPE. All you're using is headcanon and what ifs to accuse someone an offcial writer of making a plothole. Not valid. Vegeta as a ssj in universe 6 arc CANT LIFT 1,000 and it's not a plothole. FACTS. Now I can give you some real plotholes and inconsistencies with the anime, but since you still haven't responded to my essay of me just exposing how bad episode 130 is, I'll leave supers anime alone...for now...
No plothole or real inconsistency with OG DB manga. Sorry... :wave:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

so essentially "It isn't a plothole because I said so!" is your argument? Alright sounds about right. I honestly can't even respond to your argument because you didn't have one. Like I'm not even trying to be mean there is no substance here whatsoever.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:25 pm

PFM18 wrote:
1345521 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
SSJ is a 50x multiplier. Not being able to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ is the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in Base. That's just a basic application of the phrase "power multiplier." There's no reach as far as conclusions being made here. Even so, let's assume that for some ridiculous reason Vegeta is unable to lift 1,000 tons in SSJ but can lift 20 tons in his Base. That is still only half of what Goku was able to lift during the 7 year time gap between the Cell and Buu Arcs. Logically Vegeta by this point should be several fold stronger than that, not half as strong. It is just a blatant contradiction of the original source material and yet another example example of Toyotaro's incompetence. Nothing more than that. This scene should not be used as a reliable way to scale characters like was used earlier in this thread.
NOPE. All you're using is headcanon and what ifs to accuse someone an offcial writer of making a plothole. Not valid. Vegeta as a ssj in universe 6 arc CANT LIFT 1,000 and it's not a plothole. FACTS. Now I can give you some real plotholes and inconsistencies with the anime, but since you still haven't responded to my essay of me just exposing how bad episode 130 is, I'll leave supers anime alone...for now...
No plothole or real inconsistency with OG DB manga. Sorry... :wave:
:clap: :clap: :clap:

so essentially "It isn't a plothole because I said so!" is your argument? Alright sounds about right. I honestly can't even respond to your argument because you didn't have one. Like I'm not even trying to be mean there is no substance here whatsoever.
It isn't a plothole because you can't prove it's a plothole without resorting to headcanon and what-ifs. Prove that mutlplyers directly 1 for 1 correlate with how much you can lift then you actual have a substantial argument. You're just stating headcanon and what if and holding toyotaro to YOUR personal interptatikns. It may be contradicting your headcanon, but it isn't contradicting the OG db manga.
And there's no substance to what I'm saying maybe because your complaints really don't have that much substance to them at all as well.
You try to use evidence from the og db manga but fail to provide evidence to your assertion that 50x multplyer equals 50x more weight one can lift :angel:

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