Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Don't you get it that in chapter 24 it was said that CSSB was just the power of Blue being able to be used for more than a few minutes?

It's not "just" that, but I do. Don't you get that in Chapter 22, Vegeta was only said to be capable of maximizing Blue's power by switching in and out of the form almost instantaneously? Chapter 24 further explains CSSB enables that power to be in use constantly, only this time with no leakage whatsoever because the aura is absorbed. These things wouldn't make sense if Blue wasn't weaker than its completed version; at least not unless it was used in stupidly short, microsecond bursts to counteract the extremely rapid drain, which Goku said he wasn't capable of doing more than once.

This isn't a legitimate plot hole, friend. It's not even the illegitimate I-think-this-might-be-a-plot-hole-but-I-can't-prove-it kind. It's just not a plot hole. It's consistent with how Toyotaro established Blue to work and represents a sense of closure to a massive weakness the form had since it was first hinted at during the manga's U6 arc.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm quite annoyed that the writers stated that Broly is the strongest enemy that Goku and friends have ever faced. They did the same thing with Jiren.

Did the writers forget about Infinite Zamasu? How could a single Saiyan possibly be more powerful than an astral being who merged with the very fabric of the universe?! Ridiculous. And yet, apparently, Broly is much stronger than Infinite Zamasu... Ok.

Because Broly and Jiren had far more raw power than Infinite Zamasu. Immortality =/= Strength otherwise we would call Garlic Jr (i know i know not canon) stronger than Freeza

That old excuse. Apparently, a single Saiyan has more raw power than thousands of faces in the sky shooting blasts of energy at the same time. A single of these blast being able to completely overwhelm three of the strongest saiyans in existence.

Apparently, a single Saiyan has more power than thousands of Fused Zamases all with the same power level as the original.

I can't wait for the villain of the first original arc of Super 2.0 to be "the greatest enemy that Goku has ever faced". What a joke.

[JazzMazz]

Guess I should wait for the movie, but what do people think of anime Goku in Blue being almost God of Destruction tier?

Do people think it makes sense in context of his multiple bouts against Jiren?

[Ki Breaker]

Guess I should wait for the movie, but what do people think of anime Goku in Blue being almost God of Destruction tier?

Do people think it makes sense in context of his multiple bouts against Jiren?

Goku might have retained some of the effects of UI, or his blue form is trained to the point it's simply just that strong..
We don't know what Goku has achieved since the TOP

[JazzMazz]

Guess I should wait for the movie, but what do people think of anime Goku in Blue being almost God of Destruction tier?

Do people think it makes sense in context of his multiple bouts against Jiren?

Goku might have retained some of the effects of UI, or his blue form is trained to the point it's simply just that strong..
We don't know what Goku has achieved since the TOP

Considering that Goku's blue was consistently stated to be "rivalling the gods" I don't think its that much of stretch to think his blue is practically on the same level as a God of Destructions.

Also, despite not being 100% confirmed, it seems that this is taking place literally right after the TOP, so I wouldn't expect that much of a difference in terms of time frame.

[Amir]

I think it's a joke that every villain becomes way stronger than the last.
Jiren was made to be insanely powerful, stronger than GoDs and almost as good as MUI, and now some saiyan is gonna be even more powerful than that?

GoDs would become complete fodders at this rate.

[Birusu16]

Guess I should wait for the movie, but what do people think of anime Goku in Blue being almost God of Destruction tier?

Do people think it makes sense in context of his multiple bouts against Jiren?

If you're referring to the recent movie statement then not much because that statement clearly isn't referring to Blue Goku. It's referring to UI Goku otherwise the statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes zero sense considering he's at the very least equal to Goku without UI.

[WittyUsername]

Guess I should wait for the movie, but what do people think of anime Goku in Blue being almost God of Destruction tier?

Do people think it makes sense in context of his multiple bouts against Jiren?

If you're referring to the recent movie statement then not much because that statement clearly isn't referring to Blue Goku. It's referring to UI Goku otherwise the statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes zero sense considering he's at the very least equal to Goku without UI.

But wasn’t Jiren already stated to be above a GoD? UI Goku managed to defeat Jiren, so that would suggest that he himself is already there with UI. I assumed the statement simply meant that Goku hasn’t yet learned how to use UI at will.

[Birusu16]

Guess I should wait for the movie, but what do people think of anime Goku in Blue being almost God of Destruction tier?

Do people think it makes sense in context of his multiple bouts against Jiren?

If you're referring to the recent movie statement then not much because that statement clearly isn't referring to Blue Goku. It's referring to UI Goku otherwise the statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes zero sense considering he's at the very least equal to Goku without UI.

But wasn’t Jiren already stated to be above a GoD? UI Goku managed to defeat Jiren, so that would suggest that he himself is already there with UI. I assumed the statement simply meant that Goku hasn’t yet learned how to use UI at will.

He was, but being above one GoD doesn't mean you're above all of them. Vegeta beat GoD Toppo, but that doesn't mean he'd beat Beerus.

Either way, I'm not arguing whether UI Goku is GoD level or not. I'm arguing that the statement clearly wasn't referring to Blue Goku, only UI Goku otherwise the statement of Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes little sense because we know Vegeta is Goku's equal if not superior outside of UI.

[WittyUsername]

If you're referring to the recent movie statement then not much because that statement clearly isn't referring to Blue Goku. It's referring to UI Goku otherwise the statement about Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes zero sense considering he's at the very least equal to Goku without UI.

But wasn’t Jiren already stated to be above a GoD? UI Goku managed to defeat Jiren, so that would suggest that he himself is already there with UI. I assumed the statement simply meant that Goku hasn’t yet learned how to use UI at will.

He was, but being above one GoD doesn't mean you're above all of them. Vegeta beat GoD Toppo, but that doesn't mean he'd beat Beerus.

Either way, I'm not arguing whether UI Goku is GoD level or not. I'm arguing that the statement clearly wasn't referring to Blue Goku, only UI Goku otherwise the statement of Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes little sense because we know Vegeta is Goku's equal if not superior outside of UI.

I can’t imagine Beerus being significantly stronger than all the other GoDs. Jiren has been confirmed to be stronger than Belmod, and while we don’t have an answer on how Belmod compares to Beerus, I don’t see how there can be any significant differences. Of course, the manga avoided giving a clear answer to this.

[Birusu16]

But wasn’t Jiren already stated to be above a GoD? UI Goku managed to defeat Jiren, so that would suggest that he himself is already there with UI. I assumed the statement simply meant that Goku hasn’t yet learned how to use UI at will.

He was, but being above one GoD doesn't mean you're above all of them. Vegeta beat GoD Toppo, but that doesn't mean he'd beat Beerus.

Either way, I'm not arguing whether UI Goku is GoD level or not. I'm arguing that the statement clearly wasn't referring to Blue Goku, only UI Goku otherwise the statement of Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes little sense because we know Vegeta is Goku's equal if not superior outside of UI.

I can’t imagine Beerus being significantly stronger than all the other GoDs. Jiren has been confirmed to be stronger than Belmod, and while we don’t have an answer on how Belmod compares to Beerus, I don’t see how there can be any significant differences. Of course, the manga avoided giving a clear answer to this.

There's really no reason for why he can't be. Fans just don't want him to be. Not like power levels make a whole lot of sense in this series anyway.

[ZombieVito]

It's not "just" that, but I do. Don't you get that in Chapter 22, Vegeta was only said to be capable of maximizing Blue's power by switching in and out of the form almost instantaneously? Chapter 24 further explains CSSB enables that power to be in use constantly, only this time with no leakage whatsoever because the aura is absorbed. These things wouldn't make sense if Blue wasn't weaker than its completed version; at least not unless it was used in stupidly short, microsecond bursts to counteract the extremely rapid drain, which Goku said he wasn't capable of doing more than once.

This isn't a legitimate plot hole, friend. It's not even the illegitimate I-think-this-might-be-a-plot-hole-but-I-can't-prove-it kind. It's just not a plot hole. It's consistent with how Toyotaro established Blue to work and represents a sense of closure to a massive weakness the form had since it was first hinted at during the manga's U6 arc.

Vegeta: The fact that it's only able to output full power for a very short time is Blue's greatest weakness... But he's tackled that head on and overcome it.

Trunks: Th... Then... Right now, Goku is...

Vegeta: He's fighting at a constant 100% of his full power.

This is the explanation Vegeta gives to Trunks and nowhere does this say CSSB is stronger. It says something quite different actually. For a short while after Blue is activated it has all of the power available, meaning that for that amount of time CSSB is equal to Blue power level wise, the only difference with CSSB is that the power doesn't decrease after activating it. Which means Black's Rose form is equal or a bit stronger than Goku's CSSB.

This makes Goku's fight with Merged Zamasu impossible.

No matter how many times you try to defend this, this is a plothole.

[Marlowe89]

It says something quite different actually.

But it doesn't. The bolded parts of your quote are actively harming your stance, not helping it.

Vegeta said it can only output full power for a "very short time", but how short is "very short"? Thanks to Goku's explanation of Vegeta's trick (and also his trick against Hit during their earlier tournament) the answer to that question is microseconds short. It wouldn't be anything else. They can't maximize strength with the incomplete Blue unless they attack while simultaneously transforming, so Vegeta has to switch in and switch out at lightning fast reaction times just to maintain that level of power.

Which means that they don't have access to the full power of Blue in a normal fight. Which means that the aura itself has to be absorbed because it instantly starts leaking power. Which means that Black isn't as strong as Goku with a completed Blue, regardless of how severe or mild his form's stamina drain would be in comparison.

Look, man. Plot holes exist. I'm not disputing that. They might even (and probably do) exist in Toyotaro's work. However, this isn't one of them and will never be one of them because it's explained as concisely as possible to you in Chapter 22. It's all right there. If you don't want to see it, there's no way I can possibly address this discussion in a manner conducive to helping you see it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Fused Zamasu doesn't seem that much stronger than SSR Black, SSB Goku can go toe to toe with him after solving the stamina issue and an exhausted SSB Goku can blow a hole in his torso with a Kamehameha. Probably because Future Zamasu is extremely weak in the manga, like Cell Games to early Buu arc level weak (it's implied he's below SS1 Goku, and if nothing else he's explicitly an ant compared to Trunks). It seems similar to when Kibito and Kaioshin fused, and the resulting increase wasn't that big because Kibito is dozens of times weaker than Kaioshin.

Goku used SSJ because Zamasu had a hole trhough his chest. Later on Goku used SSJG to beat him up, thought Goku admitedly was too tired because of the Mafuba, so that probably wasn't him at full power.

When I read the manga I just had the impression that CSSB and SSB/SSG switching were basically the same thing ("he's fighting consistently at 100% power" vs "his power isn't dropping off at all"), except the former was far faster since now the user has the ki of SSB in all movements rather than just during attacks. Is there anything contradicting that interpretation?

Yes.

Vegeta actually had the speed of a SSJB as well:
Ch. 22, pg. 16.5-7
Context: as Black struggles to block Vegeta’s punch
Goku Black: “You’ve gotten faster… What have you done…?!”
Vegeta: “I will teach you exactly what I’ve done.”

If Vegeta's SSJB bursts were as strong as PSSJB Goku they wouldn't have acted like Goku was their last defense, given how Vegeta could just butt in and hold Zamasu while Trunks heals Goku. Instead, Vegeta refuses to be healed and straight up says only Goku can fight Zamasu:
Ch. 24, pg. 12.6
Context: Trunks wants heal Vegeta but Vegeta refuses
Vegeta: “For now…the only one who’s capable of fighting equally with Zamasu using Super Saiyan Blue is Kakarrot, not me…”

Plus PSSJB seals the overflowing Ki (The SSJB aura) inside the body, whereas Vegeta had an aura when he turns SSJB to pummel Black.

Vegeta: The fact that it's only able to output full power for a very short time is Blue's greatest weakness... But he's tackled that head on and overcome it.

Trunks: Th... Then... Right now, Goku is...

Vegeta: He's fighting at a constant 100% of his full power.

This is the explanation Vegeta gives to Trunks and nowhere does this say CSSB is stronger. It says something quite different actually. For a short while after Blue is activated it has all of the power available, meaning that for that amount of time CSSB is equal to Blue power level wise, the only difference with CSSB is that the power doesn't decrease after activating it. Which means Black's Rose form is equal or a bit stronger than Goku's CSSB.

This makes Goku's fight with Merged Zamasu impossible.

No matter how many times you try to defend this, this is a plothole.

You forgot one important line:
Vegeta: “Kakarrot… He managed to seal the Blue’s overflowing power within his body.”

Goku not only managed to overcome the stamina issues, but he also has sealed the SSJB aura (That is pretty much Ki leaking off one's body) within his body. That's why his body was on the verge of collapsing throughout the fight: He was holding overflowing Ki within his body, akin to keeping more water inside a bottle than the bottle's maximum capability.

It's not a plothole, it's just dumb writting.

[ZombieVito]

But it doesn't. The bolded parts of your quote are actively harming your stance, not helping it.

Vegeta said it can only output full power for a "very short time", but how short is "very short"? Thanks to Goku's explanation of Vegeta's trick (and also his trick against Hit during their earlier tournament) the answer to that question is microseconds short. It wouldn't be anything else. They can't maximize strength with the incomplete Blue unless they attack while simultaneously transforming, so Vegeta has to switch in and switch out at lightning fast reaction times just to maintain that level of power.

Which means that they don't have access to the full power of Blue in a normal fight. Which means that the aura itself has to be absorbed because it instantly starts leaking power. Which means that Black isn't as strong as Goku with a completed Blue, regardless of how severe or mild his form's stamina drain would be in comparison.

Look, man. Plot holes exist. I'm not disputing that. They might even (and probably do) exist in Toyotaro's work. However, this isn't one of them and will never be one of them because it's explained as concisely as possible to you in Chapter 22. It's all right there. If you don't want to see it, there's no way I can possibly address this discussion in a manner conducive to helping you see it.

It doesn't matter how long is it. The fact is they can use 100% with Blue and so can Black with Rose. Merged Zamasu can't be weaker or on par with Goku.

And there's no might in there. The manga has a lot of errors/plot holes in it.

[Bergamo]

It says something quite different actually.

But it doesn't. The bolded parts of your quote are actively harming your stance, not helping it.

Vegeta said it can only output full power for a "very short time", but how short is "very short"? Thanks to Goku's explanation of Vegeta's trick (and also his trick against Hit during their earlier tournament) the answer to that question is microseconds short. It wouldn't be anything else. They can't maximize strength with the incomplete Blue unless they attack while simultaneously transforming, so Vegeta has to switch in and switch out at lightning fast reaction times just to maintain that level of power.

Which means that they don't have access to the full power of Blue in a normal fight. Which means that the aura itself has to be absorbed because it instantly starts leaking power. Which means that Black isn't as strong as Goku with a completed Blue, regardless of how severe or mild his form's stamina drain would be in comparison.

Look, man. Plot holes exist. I'm not disputing that. They might even (and probably do) exist in Toyotaro's work. However, this isn't one of them and will never be one of them because it's explained as concisely as possible to you in Chapter 22. It's all right there. If you don't want to see it, there's no way I can possibly address this discussion in a manner conducive to helping you see it.

I just want to point out that the only time Goku used 100% of Blue's power outside of MSSB is when he was fighting Hit. Goku said that he was going to release everything in one shot and then fired off a huge kamehameha. Afterwards his aura disappeared. Vegeta is evidently not doing this when he switches, so he isn't using 100%.

[Marlowe89]

It doesn't matter how long is it. The fact is they can use 100% with Blue and so can Black with Rose. Merged Zamasu can't be weaker or on par with Goku.

It does matter because it has everything to do with why they can't use it, and why they haven't been able to use it outside of extremely brief outlier scenarios. Black doesn't seal any "overflowing power" into his body, so right off the bat, he doesn't have access to it either.

How much of this actually needs to be said? You're killing me here.

What you're doing is twisting some pieces of dialogue, ignoring the pieces that contradict your argument and playing the "plot hole!" card where one doesn't exist. There's nothing here that can be addressed that wasn't already clarified by myself and other users. If you don't want to weigh everything that's being conveyed to you, we can't force you to do it.

[MoscoSama]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/925541569041592321

Toriyama didn't want/intend for M Zamasu to be all powerful. People need to stop assuming that because Vegito is completely broken, that means every other potara fusion has to be the same way. Kibitoshin is a perfect example of that

[ZombieVito]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/925541569041592321

Toriyama didn't want/intend for M Zamasu to be all powerful. People need to stop assuming that because Vegito is completely broken, that means every other potara fusion has to be the same way. Kibitoshin is a perfect example of that

And thank god the anime didn't go with it because it doesn't make sense.

Goku and Vegeta beating a fusion of Goku and someone else by themselves is ridiculous. Especially when said fusion is immortal.

[MoscoSama]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/925541569041592321

Toriyama didn't want/intend for M Zamasu to be all powerful. People need to stop assuming that because Vegito is completely broken, that means every other potara fusion has to be the same way. Kibitoshin is a perfect example of that

And thank god the anime didn't go with it because it doesn't make sense.

Goku and Vegeta beating a fusion of Goku and someone else by themselves is ridiculous. Especially when said fusion is immortal.

No they just had SSB Goku blow off half of his face and start his degradation process and then decided to power up M Zamasu to the point where he could compete with SSB Vegito which is equal ridiculous considering the fusees