Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

By his own, I believe he meant his own training regimes. Vegeta achieved that power with the help of an Angel and without it probably never could have reached that level. Also the u7 pure blood saiyans were a very very weak race, also Goku absorbed that power so the power from the ritual is something anyone even relative to current Base Goku (assuming no retcon) has reached

The pure blood saiyans weren't weak, they were stated to be one of the strongest races in the universe. The problem is we only see some exceptional people form other races, like Zarbon, Dadoria, Qui, and the Ginyu force. It is not normal for people of those races to be that strong. They are all the strongest of there race. Saiyans also had the ability to become great apes, which made them even more dangerous. The only race in universe 7 that is clearly above the saiyans is Frieza's race, and the only two we know are stated to be extremely strong mutants from their race by Toriyama. And base Goku was never as strong as SSG, only his ssj was stated to be that level, and at this point that seems to be ignored for the most part as even Krillin and great saiyaman Gohan made Goku go ssj.

[shadowfox87]

How do you know Toriyama "changed" the story in the anime version and also "agreed" with it? Is there any written confirmation anywhere? No. All we know is that Toriyama agreed with Toyotaro's changes. He literally stated that Merged Zamasu shouldn't be that powerful. The anime literally did the opposite. The anime was given the same draft as Toyotaro and the anime team "changed" it. Saying that Toriyama changed it without having all the info is wrong.

We know he completely changed Jiren's personality in the anime. At first Jiren's personality was Toppo's but Toriyama stepped in and changed it to be a silent type.

So, yes. Toriyama can change anything at any time that he doesn't like and yet Mutated Zamasu remained.

Yes, Toriyama can "correct" the anime by supplying them drafts of what a character's personality is. We know that this happened and hence, there is written confirmation of that. That's not the point though. My point is that there isn't written confirmation that Toriyama approved specifically with Merged Zamasu and Black's zenkai in the anime. However, there is indeed written confirmation of it in the manga where he did agree. Saying that Toriyama agreed with every change in the anime without proof is just assumption.

[HeroR]

He was, but being above one GoD doesn't mean you're above all of them. Vegeta beat GoD Toppo, but that doesn't mean he'd beat Beerus.

Either way, I'm not arguing whether UI Goku is GoD level or not. I'm arguing that the statement clearly wasn't referring to Blue Goku, only UI Goku otherwise the statement of Vegeta desperately trying to catch up makes little sense because we know Vegeta is Goku's equal if not superior outside of UI.

I can’t imagine Beerus being significantly stronger than all the other GoDs. Jiren has been confirmed to be stronger than Belmod, and while we don’t have an answer on how Belmod compares to Beerus, I don’t see how there can be any significant differences. Of course, the manga avoided giving a clear answer to this.

There's really no reason for why he can't be. Fans just don't want him to be. Not like power levels make a whole lot of sense in this series anyway.

Even in the Super manga, Beerus wasn't that much ahead of the other gods. They were all relative to each other to the point that they could harm and disable one another.

How do you know Toriyama "changed" the story in the anime version and also "agreed" with it? Is there any written confirmation anywhere? No. All we know is that Toriyama agreed with Toyotaro's changes. He literally stated that Merged Zamasu shouldn't be that powerful. The anime literally did the opposite. The anime was given the same draft as Toyotaro and the anime team "changed" it. Saying that Toriyama changed it without having all the info is wrong.

We know he completely changed Jiren's personality in the anime. At first Jiren's personality was Toppo's but Toriyama stepped in and changed it to be a silent type.

So, yes. Toriyama can change anything at any time that he doesn't like and yet Mutated Zamasu remained.

Yes, Toriyama can "correct" the anime by supplying them drafts of what a character's personality is. We know that this happened and hence, there is written confirmation of that. That's not the point though. My point is that there isn't written confirmation that Toriyama approved specifically with Merged Zamasu and Black's zenkai in the anime. However, there is indeed written confirmation of it in the manga where he did agree. Saying that Toriyama agreed with every change in the anime without proof is just assumption.

Toriyama actually didn't state that. What 'Toyo' said was that in Toriyama's original draft Merged Zamasu wasn't as powerful and two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans could handle him. But for fan's expectations, Vegetto Blue was added. Meaning both the manga and anime made Merged Zamasu stronger. This also begs the question of how weak was Black?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not one fighting at full capacity, that was the whole point.

Not really. Vegeta ate a Senzu in the middle of the fight. The main issue was Black being too powerful, not Vegeta using SSJB poorly.

[MoscoSama]

The " But Beerus hasn't shown his full power yet" crew are out in full force recently on the interwebs.

You could say the Grand Priest is stronger than Beerus and we would still get that full power retort as if Beerus is some endless well of power

[Bergamo]

Not one fighting at full capacity, that was the whole point.

Not really. Vegeta ate a Senzu in the middle of the fight. The main issue was Black being too powerful, not Vegeta using SSJB poorly.

Vegeta did lose because he was using SSB poorly. In the u6 arc Vegeta's power massively dropped off after one demonstration of his power, because Vegeta sucks at using the form.

[Bullza]

As chance would have it I'm reading Volume 3 now as it just released so I got a few general comments and you can tell me if you agree or not.

- Zamasu would be somewhat stronger than any Supreme Kai but not by leaps and bounds going by his fight with Kibito.

- Would Base Goku have been stronger than Zamasu? In other words upon Zamasu taking Goku's body would he have been grown stronger or weaker? After all he did kill Goku in Zamasu's body immediately.

- Black was using Super Saiyan 2 right? When they mentioned Super Saiyan that was just in general yeah?

- Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta being stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Black is kind of strange. I suppose that means that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta has to be over a hundred times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku but perhaps that goes back to the fight with Beerus.

- Super Saiyan 2 Black after his zenkai shouldn't actually be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at full strength right?

[Miracles]

The " But Beerus hasn't shown his full power yet" crew are out in full force recently on the interwebs.

You could say the Grand Priest is stronger than Beerus and we would still get that full power retort as if Beerus is some endless well of power

It just comes down to this, if you want all semantics and fanfic thrown out the window, those who claim Beerus is weaker...Post up where it directly states Beerus, by name is eclipsed?

[Bergamo]

As chance would have it I'm reading Volume 3 now as it just released so I got a few general comments and you can tell me if you agree or not.

- Zamasu would be somewhat stronger than any Supreme Kai but not by leaps and bounds going by his fight with Kibito.

- Would Base Goku have been stronger than Zamasu? In other words upon Zamasu taking Goku's body would he have been grown stronger or weaker? After all he did kill Goku in Zamasu's body immediately.

- Black was using Super Saiyan 2 right? When they mentioned Super Saiyan that was just in general yeah?

- Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta being stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Black is kind of strange. I suppose that means that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta has to be over a hundred times as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku but perhaps that goes back to the fight with Beerus.

- Super Saiyan 2 Black after his zenkai shouldn't actually be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta at full strength right?

1. Zamas may have gotten weaker. Neither him nor Goku could control their new body at first assuming that Ginyu is anything to go by.
2. Black is SS1. He has the SS1 hairstyle.
3. Throwing around a random, "hundreds of times stronger," statement is almost always wrong.
4. Yes, SS2 Vegeta has been stronger than SS3 Goku since the BoG saga.
5. Zenkais can be however strong they want to be. Vegeta got a 1.33 times zenkai boost and a 17 times zenkai boost. Zenkai makes you as strong as you need to be to make the plot work.

[MoscoSama]

The " But Beerus hasn't shown his full power yet" crew are out in full force recently on the interwebs.

You could say the Grand Priest is stronger than Beerus and we would still get that full power retort as if Beerus is some endless well of power

It just comes down to this, if you want all semantics and fanfic thrown out the window, those who claim Beerus is weaker...Post up where it directly states Beerus, by name was surpassed?

Where was it DIRECTLY stated that UI Goku was stronger than SSBE Vegeta?

Why does something have to be spelled out for people to accept it?

Whis implied that GoD (Belmod) was stronger than Beerus, Beerus denied it and tried to play it off as just arm wrestling but you can't just throw away Whis statement

Jiren coming into the ToP was already stronger than Belmod

There was a magazine spread translated by Herms where Beerus says "he might be beyond me". The picture was of UIO Goku but lets just say he meant UI Goku since it was for episode 129

Then UI Goku dominates Jiren completely , Jiren breaks his own limits and turns the table on UI Goku and dominates him until Goku gets even stronger and puts Jiren down.

There is nothing indicating Beerus is way stronger than other GoDs , Jiren coming into the ToP was above atleast one GoD and then powered up immensely and still got overpowered by Goku.

[Bullza]

Black is SS1. He has the SS1 hairstyle.

He has the electricity in the aura which has been drawn consistently since the first chapter.

[Marlowe89]

He has the electricity in the aura which has been drawn consistently since the first chapter.

So did Super Vegito. Not sure why people think that's a trait unique to Super Saiyan 2.

[Miracles]

Where was it DIRECTLY stated that UI Goku was stronger than SSBE Vegeta?

Why does something have to be spelled out for people to accept it?

Whis implied that GoD (Belmod) was stronger than Beerus, Beerus denied it and tried to play it off as just arm wrestling but you can't just throw away Whis statement

Jiren coming into the ToP was already stronger than Belmod

There was a magazine spread translated by Herms where Beerus says "he might be beyond me". The picture was of UIO Goku but lets just say he meant UI Goku since it was for episode 129

Then UI Goku dominates Jiren completely , Jiren breaks his own limits and turns the table on UI Goku and dominates him until Goku gets even stronger and puts Jiren down.

There is nothing indicating Beerus is way stronger than other GoDs , Jiren coming into the ToP was above atleast one GoD and then powered up immensely and still got overpowered by Goku.

OUTRIGHT statements said Jiren > Belmound and Toppo. So, UI Goku > SSBE Vegeta doesn't need statements.

Now show me where Super directly DEFINES/shows Beerus power exclusively?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Stronger than a God of Destruction is clear enough. Beerus is a God of Destruction. Being stronger than A doesn't mean only one God is being referenced. It's a blanket statement that encompasses all of them. This is common sense. Just like Black stating that he reached a level that a mortal never could. He isn't stating talking about only one mortal. He's talking about all mortals. Just like Golden Frieza stating that a God of Destruction is nothing to him. He isn't talking about only one God of Destruction. This is so clearcut that there isn't any debate to be had and the claims that Beerus is still relevant sound very delusional.

[Miracles]

No where was it stated that Jiren is stronger than all gods. It specifically stated Jiren is stronger than Belmound.

The rest you guys are adding in.

[LightBing]

Black is SS1. He has the SS1 hairstyle.

He has the electricity in the aura which has been drawn consistently since the first chapter.

Seems like Black's SSJ state in the manga is unique to him. Since his SSJB for some reason is Rosé this assumption is fairly reasonable.

He has the electricity in the aura which has been drawn consistently since the first chapter.

So did Super Vegito. Not sure why people think that's a trait unique to Super Saiyan 2.

Vegetto only had it when he first transformed and sparks have always been used to demonstrate impact. Vegetto never had sparks again, even when his aura was present. In the manga sparks has always consistently been present in SSJ2 only.

[sintzu]

The problem is nothing suggests Goku's close to the angels. Vegeta being above some of the GoDs is trickier since we don't even know where they stand.

Toppo was essentially a destroyer and clearly a very strong one but Vegeta managed to beat him so among the 13 destroyers we've got (the 12+Toppo), I'd put Vegeta at number 9-10. Like you said, we don't know where they stand so it's hard to accurately place him but it's safe to say he's not the weakest but he's clearly not the strongest so 9-10 seems right. Jiren's base power is faaaaaaar more powerful than Vegeta's evolved Blue so I'd place him at 5-6 on the destroyer list. Jiren at full power (when he got buffed up and his top ripped) is easily in the top 3, maybe even stronger than all 13. UI Goku managed to beat him with little effort so if Jiren is stronger than the destroyers at his full power then Goku using UI is easily on an angle level. He may not be able to beat any of them but there's no way they're one offing him either.

[Bullza]

So did Super Vegito. Not sure why people think that's a trait unique to Super Saiyan 2.

Only in the one panel. In the anime there were several Super Saiyans who also had sparks long before Super Saiyan 2 was a thing.

For the Dragon Ball Super manga in itself, every time a character became a Super Saiyan 2 they had sparks throughout the battle. It was that way for Goku vs Beerus, Vegeta vs Beerus, Trunks vs Black, Goku vs Trunks and Vegeta vs Black. Then ever since when Goku fought Toppo and so on.

Black had the sparks throughout just like Vegeta.

[Zen Yabuki]

The problem is nothing suggests Goku's close to the angels. Vegeta being above some of the GoDs is trickier since we don't even know where they stand.

Toppo was essentially a destroyer and clearly a very strong one but Vegeta managed to beat him so among the 13 destroyers we've got (the 12+Toppo), I'd put Vegeta at number 9-10. Like you said, we don't know where they stand so it's hard to accurately place him but it's safe to say he's not the weakest but he's clearly not the strongest so 9-10 seems right. Jiren's base power is faaaaaaar more powerful than Vegeta's evolved Blue so I'd place him at 5-6 on the destroyer list. Jiren at full power (when he got buffed up and his top ripped) is easily in the top 3, maybe even stronger than all 13. UI Goku managed to beat him with little effort so if Jiren is stronger than the destroyers at his full power then Goku using UI is easily on an angle level. He may not be able to beat any of them but there's no way they're one offing him either.

But that's what I'm saying. We don't know, so we can't say "definitely not the weakest". Or that "Toppo was essentially a destroyer and clearly a very strong one" based on what? It's not that I necessarily doubt it, but what actually makes that true when we have little to go off on?

With little effort? Even after Goku raged out on Jiren, I wouldn't put him that much above Jiren tbh. Jiren was still trading blows with him up until really the Kamehameha. Goku was clearly stronger, but he himself couldn't take Jiren down with just a couple hits. You also have little to no basis for the angels either since we don't know where they stand either.

That's really my issue with this. It's essentially you making judgments largely based on the unknown as if we know where all of these characters stand in power. Toppo could be a very strong destroyer, but he could also be weaker than the weakest of the GoDs despite that. That gap could be big enough that Vegeta could still be weaker than the weakest GoD too. Because we know so little, that fits well just as much what your saying.

[Marlowe89]

sparks have always been used to demonstrate impact.

This is my point. They serve the same visual purpose with Super Saiyan 3, so they're not unique to Super Saiyan 2. It's not typical for the first transformation to have them, but not necessarily impossible for special cases like Black.

Design-wise, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are easy to differentiate for characters like Goku without needing to refer to the aura. Black was clearly using SS1.