Jesus-is Lord wrote:A lot of things to dissect here, what solid evidence do you have that base goku can solo Z?
The entire series portrays it in such a way that it has become obvious that Goku could crush everyone in Z without transforming.
-During BoG, it was stated and made clear that SSJ Goku=SSG and since SSG>SSJ3 Vegetto, his Base is naturally above everything in Z outside of SSJ Vegetto during that time.(He didn't surpass SSJ Vegetto probably until a bit later) But he definitely surpassed Buuhan in Base immediately upon the ritual running out in which his SSJ~SSG. This is obviously the most prominent one Goku getting an astronomical boost was a significant plot point.
-During RoF, First Form Freeza dominates everybody and then Goku is on par with Final Form Freeza. Final Form Freeza if the Namek arc is anything to go by is at a minimum a hundred times stronger than his first form. Therefore, Base Goku is at a minimum 100x stronger than everybody else. Whether it be SSJ Gohan who's Base had surpassed Piccolo, or SSJ Gotenks, Goku was 100+ times stronger than them in Base.
-Base Goku is strong enough to entertain Beerus in the Monaka suit fighting him. (at a minimum this makes him >>>>>>> his BoG SSJ3 self who literally got flicked and got knocoked out)
-Copy Vegeta completely dominates SSJ3 Gotenks who is identical to Vegeta.
-Base Goku doesn't even appear to be trying and yet he is competing with Majin Buu who had been training and had gained a significant amount of power. Goku is fighting him in Base and is impressed with Buu's improvements as though he would have stomped him had he not improved.
Base goku needed andorid 18 help in defeating a fodder pride trooper? Is this pride trooper how above super vegito?
Well, Tupper caught Goku off-guard so it isn't really indicative of his power very much. Either way, Tupper being stronger than SSJ Vegetto wouldn't contradict anything especially since his colleagues are as strong/stronger than SSB who is massively stronger than SSJ Vegetto.
Also Kuririn was able to at least fight well against base goku
No indication Goku was using his full-power so nothing conclusive here.
So was Roshi
Roshi's ki flared up when the lady was controlling him and as we have seen with any time this ever happens, this indicates an associated increase in power. So if anything this would mean a powered up Roshi fought Goku and wouldn't say much about Roshi's actual power. Either way, he certainly didn't seem to be fighting seriously anyway.
Bergamo was too
What? Bergamo just took Goku's power as he took hits. Nothing indicating what you are implying whatsoever.
Even base cabba is as strong as base goku or near in power and you're telling me chicken wings cabba is AS STRONG AS SUPER VEGITO?
Yeah around SSJ Vegetto. I see no reason why not. Goku in BoG, training with Whis, and RoF, was portrayed as being massively stronger to the point where his SSJ by this point should be far stronger than SSG BoG, so to say Base Cabba who can compete with his Base is on par with SSJ Vegetto is not irrational. Nothing contradicting this notion whatsoever. So it is simply your speculation with nothing supporting it saying Vegetto can't be about Cabab level.
You really think if super vegito came to super, toei would show him getting stomped by guys like meggetta, BASE CABBA, frost, ribirane, Roshi etc?
I don't particularly care about what a hypothetical Toei showcase of DBZ Suepr Vegetto would yield. It is purely hypothetical and means nothing objectively speaking.
And you seem to forget BASE GOHAN was as strong as base goku and piccolo beforehand was on par with ssj2 gohan but now is not even base gohan (and goku tier)?
Base Gohan may be on par with Base Goku after his training. This doesn't refute anything though.
So you're telling me that gohan in base grew 100x strknger AT LEAST in a span of like 9 hours training in the woods with fodder piccolo with no special training AND ON TOP OF THAT it was never emphasized by the show itself that gohan grew that strong?
Getting giant power boosts is literally Gohan's character. Him getting a large boost should surpise absolutely nobody that is what he's been doing throughout the entire franchise'. It most definitely was emphasized in the show itself I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. They literally had an exposition discussing Gohan reaching new levels of power and had an episode dedicated to showing that Gohan had become on the same level of his father.
If gohan received such a boost in that short time it would have been shown by the show.
It was. It was an entire plot point.
Furthermore, your whole "base goku is far stronger then anything in Z therefore gohan just got a massive boost" is contradicted by episode 75.
It really isn't. Even if we for some reason disregard that this is a gag scene that shouldn't be taken seriously, this was a casual sparring match on a farm. No reason to think this was a serious fight from this evidence. Even if we disregard those too, Goku literally admitted to holding back during that fight.
It is literally made abundantly clear Goku was holding back.
why would he use ssj on someone weaker then his base form when his whole premise of fighting in the first place WAS TO HAVE A CHALLENGE?
We don't know how much Goku was holding back so we can't really draw much from this scene. The best we can conclude is that Base Goku<SSJ Gohan and even then that is a shaky conclusion.
Think I made it clear, base goku can't solo Z
You didn't make that clear at all whatsoever. The only real "support" you used was the scenes associated with Gohan and that was simply a result of you not understanding what was happening as I explained above. The rest was just unfounded speculation.
and supers anime has terrible power scaling that's worse then even GT. Far worse might I add.
You brought up a grand total of exactly 0 inconsistencies in power scaling and 0 examples of bad power scaling. Sure, they exist in DBS, but you didn't bring up anything inconsistent or contradictory whatsoever. Additionally, you most certainly did not show in any way that the power scaling in GT is better. GT's power scaling is a complete train wreck with blatantly contradictory statements.
got more to say, in the ToP it was shown BASE kefla (formed by the fusion of FODDER base kale and caulifa who's weaker then base goku) formed a fusion that STOMPED SSJ GOD GOKU (if he was "tired" he wouldn't have the energy to push into ssj blue and kaioken and then have a UI omen that was stronger then previous UI omen). Since we know BoG takes place AT MAX a year after (it was kinda implied in the anime and shown directly in the manga so it's facts that bog takes place that much after Buu), we can conclude goku and vegeta aren't that much stronger then their buu self.
I honestly have no idea what you are even trying to say here. What the hell does Kefla have to do with Goku and Vegeta not being that much stronger than their buu selves. In Vegeta's case he was literally explicitly stated to be MUCH stronger than his Buu self. You are simply confused on the matter.
This means that base vegito in Z could STOMP SSJ GOD goku
What? This is ridiculous. No reason to believe this whatsoever.
we take that into consideration, you're telling me that base goku is heads and shoulders above what we was in BoG Ssj god?
Nope. I didn't say that but based on your faulty logic that would have to be the case in order for Base Vegetto>SSG God BoG to be possible. Of course, the latter statement is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while.
Well, if that were so why did goku imply he'd never reach god status on his own training but yet ransoms like gohan, android 17, trunks in BASE all did it in a relative short amount of time? And why did whis tell vegeta you'll never reach god level with normal earth training but yet base trunks, gohan and 17 did as well. Even some random girl out a spell on Roshi and made him be as strong or fight well with base goku. But you're saying goku can SOLO not beat but SOLO all of Z? When z can be shown to be already on god tier levels?
All of this is based on your previous conclusions that are not supported in any way. So all of this can be reasonably disregarded.
Lol. I think I can comfortably say you've been throughly DEBUNKED. Have a nice day.
Nope. You didn't successively deconstruct a single thing I said. You just simply do not understand the power scaling in the DBS anime at all.