Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:39 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:How does that mean that he retained it?
Saying Vegeta "finally surpassed Goku" is a continual definite statement, not temporary.
Dud he even say "finally" before it?

How could Roshi possibly know that this is a permanent boost in that moment. It is obviously just in that particular moment.

Wait, are you guys referring to the Vegeta vs Beerus rage boost? If so, do people actually believe that it was a permanent thing? That's just a fanboy hoping to making their favorite character stronger than someone else. It is clearly a rage-boost, implying that is isn't something permanent.

If you're not referring to that, carry on!
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:50 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:How does that mean that he retained it?
Saying Vegeta "finally surpassed Goku" is a continual definite statement, not temporary.
Dud he even say "finally" before it?

How could Roshi possibly know that this is a permanent boost in that moment. It is obviously just in that particular moment.
When has anyone in DB continuity got a boost only for a moment as a Saiyan?
Roshi was speaking overall permanent power, not temporary with the word "finally..."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Saying Vegeta "finally surpassed Goku" is a continual definite statement, not temporary.
Dud he even say "finally" before it?

How could Roshi possibly know that this is a permanent boost in that moment. It is obviously just in that particular moment.
When has anyone in DB continuity got a boost only for a moment as a Saiyan?
Roshi was speaking overall permanent power, not temporary with the word "finally..."

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It was just a rage boost Roshi would have absolutely no way of knowing if it is permanent or not.

Ok but we are talking about the manga anyway and you just quoted the movie

It doesn't make sense anyway even if Vegeta is using 'Rageta' because Goku and Vegeta both exhibited shock in Trunks using a form that looks like ssj2 but is a better version, nearly on par with ssj3. Trunks explicitly says he learnt how to draw more power out of ssj2 as he wasn't happy with it and this is new to Goku. Why would it be a new noteworthy thing if Goku's training partner (Vegeta) has been using the same thing for years (in the ROSAT too) to a much, much higher degree than Trunks?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jesus-is Lord » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Jesus-is Lord wrote:A lot of things to dissect here, what solid evidence do you have that base goku can solo Z?
The entire series portrays it in such a way that it has become obvious that Goku could crush everyone in Z without transforming.

-During BoG, it was stated and made clear that SSJ Goku=SSG and since SSG>SSJ3 Vegetto, his Base is naturally above everything in Z outside of SSJ Vegetto during that time.(He didn't surpass SSJ Vegetto probably until a bit later) But he definitely surpassed Buuhan in Base immediately upon the ritual running out in which his SSJ~SSG. This is obviously the most prominent one Goku getting an astronomical boost was a significant plot point.
-During RoF, First Form Freeza dominates everybody and then Goku is on par with Final Form Freeza. Final Form Freeza if the Namek arc is anything to go by is at a minimum a hundred times stronger than his first form. Therefore, Base Goku is at a minimum 100x stronger than everybody else. Whether it be SSJ Gohan who's Base had surpassed Piccolo, or SSJ Gotenks, Goku was 100+ times stronger than them in Base.
-Base Goku is strong enough to entertain Beerus in the Monaka suit fighting him. (at a minimum this makes him >>>>>>> his BoG SSJ3 self who literally got flicked and got knocoked out)
-Copy Vegeta completely dominates SSJ3 Gotenks who is identical to Vegeta.
-Base Goku doesn't even appear to be trying and yet he is competing with Majin Buu who had been training and had gained a significant amount of power. Goku is fighting him in Base and is impressed with Buu's improvements as though he would have stomped him had he not improved.
Base goku needed andorid 18 help in defeating a fodder pride trooper? Is this pride trooper how above super vegito?
Well, Tupper caught Goku off-guard so it isn't really indicative of his power very much. Either way, Tupper being stronger than SSJ Vegetto wouldn't contradict anything especially since his colleagues are as strong/stronger than SSB who is massively stronger than SSJ Vegetto.
Also Kuririn was able to at least fight well against base goku
No indication Goku was using his full-power so nothing conclusive here.
So was Roshi
Roshi's ki flared up when the lady was controlling him and as we have seen with any time this ever happens, this indicates an associated increase in power. So if anything this would mean a powered up Roshi fought Goku and wouldn't say much about Roshi's actual power. Either way, he certainly didn't seem to be fighting seriously anyway.
Bergamo was too
What? Bergamo just took Goku's power as he took hits. Nothing indicating what you are implying whatsoever.
Even base cabba is as strong as base goku or near in power and you're telling me chicken wings cabba is AS STRONG AS SUPER VEGITO?
Yeah around SSJ Vegetto. I see no reason why not. Goku in BoG, training with Whis, and RoF, was portrayed as being massively stronger to the point where his SSJ by this point should be far stronger than SSG BoG, so to say Base Cabba who can compete with his Base is on par with SSJ Vegetto is not irrational. Nothing contradicting this notion whatsoever. So it is simply your speculation with nothing supporting it saying Vegetto can't be about Cabab level.
You really think if super vegito came to super, toei would show him getting stomped by guys like meggetta, BASE CABBA, frost, ribirane, Roshi etc?
I don't particularly care about what a hypothetical Toei showcase of DBZ Suepr Vegetto would yield. It is purely hypothetical and means nothing objectively speaking.
And you seem to forget BASE GOHAN was as strong as base goku and piccolo beforehand was on par with ssj2 gohan but now is not even base gohan (and goku tier)?
Base Gohan may be on par with Base Goku after his training. This doesn't refute anything though.
So you're telling me that gohan in base grew 100x strknger AT LEAST in a span of like 9 hours training in the woods with fodder piccolo with no special training AND ON TOP OF THAT it was never emphasized by the show itself that gohan grew that strong?
Getting giant power boosts is literally Gohan's character. Him getting a large boost should surpise absolutely nobody that is what he's been doing throughout the entire franchise'. It most definitely was emphasized in the show itself I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. They literally had an exposition discussing Gohan reaching new levels of power and had an episode dedicated to showing that Gohan had become on the same level of his father.
If gohan received such a boost in that short time it would have been shown by the show.
It was. It was an entire plot point.
Furthermore, your whole "base goku is far stronger then anything in Z therefore gohan just got a massive boost" is contradicted by episode 75.
It really isn't. Even if we for some reason disregard that this is a gag scene that shouldn't be taken seriously, this was a casual sparring match on a farm. No reason to think this was a serious fight from this evidence. Even if we disregard those too, Goku literally admitted to holding back during that fight. It is literally made abundantly clear Goku was holding back.
why would he use ssj on someone weaker then his base form when his whole premise of fighting in the first place WAS TO HAVE A CHALLENGE?
We don't know how much Goku was holding back so we can't really draw much from this scene. The best we can conclude is that Base Goku<SSJ Gohan and even then that is a shaky conclusion.
Think I made it clear, base goku can't solo Z
You didn't make that clear at all whatsoever. The only real "support" you used was the scenes associated with Gohan and that was simply a result of you not understanding what was happening as I explained above. The rest was just unfounded speculation.
and supers anime has terrible power scaling that's worse then even GT. Far worse might I add.
You brought up a grand total of exactly 0 inconsistencies in power scaling and 0 examples of bad power scaling. Sure, they exist in DBS, but you didn't bring up anything inconsistent or contradictory whatsoever. Additionally, you most certainly did not show in any way that the power scaling in GT is better. GT's power scaling is a complete train wreck with blatantly contradictory statements.
got more to say, in the ToP it was shown BASE kefla (formed by the fusion of FODDER base kale and caulifa who's weaker then base goku) formed a fusion that STOMPED SSJ GOD GOKU (if he was "tired" he wouldn't have the energy to push into ssj blue and kaioken and then have a UI omen that was stronger then previous UI omen). Since we know BoG takes place AT MAX a year after (it was kinda implied in the anime and shown directly in the manga so it's facts that bog takes place that much after Buu), we can conclude goku and vegeta aren't that much stronger then their buu self.
I honestly have no idea what you are even trying to say here. What the hell does Kefla have to do with Goku and Vegeta not being that much stronger than their buu selves. In Vegeta's case he was literally explicitly stated to be MUCH stronger than his Buu self. You are simply confused on the matter.
This means that base vegito in Z could STOMP SSJ GOD goku
What? This is ridiculous. No reason to believe this whatsoever.
we take that into consideration, you're telling me that base goku is heads and shoulders above what we was in BoG Ssj god?
Nope. I didn't say that but based on your faulty logic that would have to be the case in order for Base Vegetto>SSG God BoG to be possible. Of course, the latter statement is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while.
Well, if that were so why did goku imply he'd never reach god status on his own training but yet ransoms like gohan, android 17, trunks in BASE all did it in a relative short amount of time? And why did whis tell vegeta you'll never reach god level with normal earth training but yet base trunks, gohan and 17 did as well. Even some random girl out a spell on Roshi and made him be as strong or fight well with base goku. But you're saying goku can SOLO not beat but SOLO all of Z? When z can be shown to be already on god tier levels?
All of this is based on your previous conclusions that are not supported in any way. So all of this can be reasonably disregarded.
Lol. I think I can comfortably say you've been throughly DEBUNKED. Have a nice day.
Nope. You didn't successively deconstruct a single thing I said. You just simply do not understand the power scaling in the DBS anime at all.
If ssj god was Truly stronger then ssj3 vegetto, then ssj god goku should have been stronger then BASE kefla by a lot. Point is fusion is actaully stronger then ssj god, as proved by super itself. And fights > goku GUESS WORK.
So that's wrong.
2nd - the whole ssj god got absorbed into whereever parts of his body has been retconned because the whole point of that was so goku didn't need to use his regular ssj forms anymore, and the power of ssj god didn't just rest into his ssj form. It rested into HIMSELF, he was just in ssj when using that "power". If he powered into base it would have been hypotheically the same thing. So no, his ssj form isn't ssj god tier. And if it was so, that's saying ssj2 trunks somehow became stronger then ssj god, and therefore stronger then ssj3 vegito in just a decade of training? hahahahah
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:24 pm

PFM18 wrote:It was just a rage boost Roshi would have absolutely no way of knowing if it is permanent or not.

Ok but we are talking about the manga anyway and you just quoted the movie

It doesn't make sense anyway even if Vegeta is using 'Rageta' because Goku and Vegeta both exhibited shock in Trunks using a form that looks like ssj2 but is a better version, nearly on par with ssj3. Trunks explicitly says he learnt how to draw more power out of ssj2 as he wasn't happy with it and this is new to Goku. Why would it be a new noteworthy thing if Goku's training partner (Vegeta) has been using the same thing for years (in the ROSAT too) to a much, much higher degree than Trunks?
Roshi knows the boost is permanent cause whenever someone got a power up in DB ever they kept it. Hence why he says Vegeta "finally" surpassed Goku.
Why would he say finally Vegeta is stronger than Goku if it was short lived? That's not how Dragonball works at all.

The manga continued this theme from BOG movie with SSJ2 Vegeta smacking Black up who was smacking Trunks SSj2 power which was only "nearly as strong" as Goku's SSJ3.
Proving that Vegeta SSJ2 was greater than both. Trunks in the anime got a rage boost, he kept that power, Vegeta in the TOP got a friendship boost twice he kept those powers.
All this "temporary boost" is something the fandom made up and was never a thing in DB canon.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:57 pm

Vegeta in the TOP got a friendship boost twice
Well no not really. I don't think "friendship boost" is really a very accurate description. More so just rage/pride related boosts as a result of thinking of those he loved. But yes, that is a fair point that a similar thing happened to Vegeta where he kept the boost.
The manga continued this theme from BOG movie with SSJ2 Vegeta smacking Black up who was smacking Trunks SSj2 power which was only "nearly as strong" as Goku's SSJ3.
Proving that Vegeta SSJ2 was greater than both. Trunks in the anime got a rage boost, he kept that power, Vegeta in the TOP got a friendship boost twice he kept those powers.
All this "temporary boost" is something the fandom made up and was never a thing in DB canon.
Trunks and Vegeta's first boosts were not rage boosts that they kept, they were just achieving new transformations altogether that obviously yields a permanent boost. Not at all analogous to the "Rageta" thing.

Why would Goku/Vegeta be shocked that Trunks was using an improved version of SSJ2 if Vegeta had been using a superior version of SSJ2 this entire time? It makes no sense. The boost was obviously temporary.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:42 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Vegeta in the TOP got a friendship boost twice
Well no not really. I don't think "friendship boost" is really a very accurate description. More so just rage/pride related boosts as a result of thinking of those he loved. But yes, that is a fair point that a similar thing happened to Vegeta where he kept the boost.
The manga continued this theme from BOG movie with SSJ2 Vegeta smacking Black up who was smacking Trunks SSj2 power which was only "nearly as strong" as Goku's SSJ3.
Proving that Vegeta SSJ2 was greater than both. Trunks in the anime got a rage boost, he kept that power, Vegeta in the TOP got a friendship boost twice he kept those powers.
All this "temporary boost" is something the fandom made up and was never a thing in DB canon.
Trunks and Vegeta's first boosts were not rage boosts that they kept, they were just achieving new transformations altogether that obviously yields a permanent boost. Not at all analogous to the "Rageta" thing.

Why would Goku/Vegeta be shocked that Trunks was using an improved version of SSJ2 if Vegeta had been using a superior version of SSJ2 this entire time? It makes no sense. The boost was obviously temporary.
It was never stated that Vegeta got as powerful as he did due to a rage boost. Krillin says, "Has Vegeta always been this strong," which could imply that he increased his power offpanel and this was just him showcasing it
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:32 am

Episode director confirmed that not only was SSBE anime only, as well as the context behind it, but also that strength wise its basically the anime's equivalent to Goku's blue Kaio-ken.
Last edited by JazzMazz on Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:26 am

JazzMazz wrote:Series director confirmed that not only was SSBE anime only, as well as the context behind it, but also that strength wise its basically the anime's equivalent to Goku's blue Kaio-ken.
Ok, But will these forms be in the movie ? It is the continuation of the Anime after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:52 am

Issei189 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Series director confirmed that not only was SSBE anime only, as well as the context behind it, but also that strength wise its basically the anime's equivalent to Goku's blue Kaio-ken.
Ok, But will these forms be in the movie ? It is the continuation of the Anime after all.
Doesn't look like it. A lot of the merch that typically and brazenly reveals forms old and new to appear don't show Blue KK, Blue Evolution or even Ultra Instinct. There also weren't any designs for them showcased at comic con.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Ki Breaker » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:15 am

JazzMazz wrote:Episode director confirmed that not only was SSBE anime only, as well as the context behind it, but also that strength wise its basically the anime's equivalent to Goku's blue Kaio-ken.
That's a shocker. Not.

Seemed obvious it was done to equal Vegeta to Goku for a short time, but it's nice to have confirmation
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:35 pm

It's obvious that SSBE is simply the equivalent to Kaioken but where was that stated? There are people saying that Vegeta was far stronger than Kaioken Goku and on par with UI Omen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:40 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It's obvious that SSBE is simply the equivalent to Kaioken but where was that stated? There are people saying that Vegeta was far stronger than Kaioken Goku and on par with UI Omen.

Megumi Ishitani (director) said that on twitter in response to a question from a fan. Also as far as SSBE rivaling Omen, I think people meant the first time or maybe second time in terms of raw power. Remember goku got massively stronger during the ToP and Evolution was on par with Blue KKx20 goku after he had broken his limits twice before and consistently gotten stronger by fighting as seen by Blue Goku doing better against a powered up jiren in episode 123 compared to kkx20 goku vs jiren in the special

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:52 pm

MoscoSama wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It's obvious that SSBE is simply the equivalent to Kaioken but where was that stated? There are people saying that Vegeta was far stronger than Kaioken Goku and on par with UI Omen.

Megumi Ishitani (director) said that on twitter in response to a question from a fan. Also as far as SSBE rivaling Omen, I think people meant the first time or maybe second time in terms of raw power. Remember goku got massively stronger during the ToP and Evolution was on par with Blue KKx20 goku after he had broken his limits twice before and consistently gotten stronger by fighting as seen by Blue Goku doing better against a powered up jiren in episode 123 compared to kkx20 goku vs jiren in the special
Vegeta implied Jiren was using less strength than he did against Goku the first time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:56 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It's obvious that SSBE is simply the equivalent to Kaioken but where was that stated? There are people saying that Vegeta was far stronger than Kaioken Goku and on par with UI Omen.

Megumi Ishitani (director) said that on twitter in response to a question from a fan. Also as far as SSBE rivaling Omen, I think people meant the first time or maybe second time in terms of raw power. Remember goku got massively stronger during the ToP and Evolution was on par with Blue KKx20 goku after he had broken his limits twice before and consistently gotten stronger by fighting as seen by Blue Goku doing better against a powered up jiren in episode 123 compared to kkx20 goku vs jiren in the special
Vegeta implied Jiren was using less strength than he did against Goku the first time.

That was in episode 122.

In episode 123, jiren powered up to a level that belmod said he hadn't seen him at in a long time so 123 jiren > any jiren we'd seen before.
SSB Goku put up a better fight with that jiren than kkx20 goku did vs a weaker jiren back in episode 109

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:10 pm

Jesus-is Lord wrote:the whole ssj god got absorbed into whereever parts of his body has been retconned because the whole point of that was so goku didn't need to use his regular ssj forms anymore, and the power of ssj god didn't just rest into his ssj form. It rested into HIMSELF, he was just in ssj when using that "power". If he powered into base it would have been hypotheically the same thing
Well, in a way, you are right here. But within the context of what you are discussing, you are mistaken. Now, the concept of a "Saiyan Beyond God" was retconned from the movies. The movie established that SSG, and SSJ were not going to be used because Goku could use God Ki in his base and was stronger than the SSG form that rendered the other forms irrelevant. Now, the premise of a "Saiyan Beyond God" worked for a movie but not in the scope of an entire new series because they can't just have two forms "Saiyan Beyond God" and "SSGSS" like they did in the movie. In the anime, everybody can sense what is clearly Goku's Base, unlike the movies, and King Kai and the narrator state that he had surpassed SSG only upon going SSB. So that shows that there is no longer a base form with God Ki that is beyond SSG.

The emphasis in the BoG movie was that Goku simply "made that power his own" through experiencing that level of power. Then, Vegeta trained with Whis for 6 months, and he became as strong or stronger than Goku who got the boost that made his SSJ>=SSG. Goku states that his ki was unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, which obviously, means that the boost was monumentally large. But this shows that with Vegeta he didn't have a form that changed how his other forms functioned adn Goku and Vegeta's forms functioned the same way. Therefore, it was never implied that there was anything inhibiting them from using SSJ/SSG and so DBS did not retcon itself. Goku/Vegeta simply had a large power boost and that is essentially it. This is reinforced throughout the series as I already explained.
If ssj god was Truly stronger then ssj3 vegetto, then ssj god goku should have been stronger then BASE kefla by a lot. Point is fusion is actaully stronger then ssj god, as proved by super itself. And fights > goku GUESS WORK.
The problem is you are jumping to conclusions and retroactively applying something that "contradicts" what has already been established and stated. SSG Goku literally said that he didn't know that level of power could even exist. He had already experienced SSJ Vegetto so obviously this is on a completely different level. You can't just retroactively apply your preconceived notions to something 100 episodes prior that contradicts multiple direct statements.

The more reasonable explanation, which is intuitive, is that after Goku made the power of SSG "his own", and because this is a version of the form that he attained without the ritual, does not have the multiplier as when he achieved it through the ritual. Which makes sense, because it would have been insane, even for the power creep within this series, for Goku to retain that level of power and then gain the same astronomical boost that he acheved from the ritual.
So no, his ssj form isn't ssj god tier. And if it was so, that's saying ssj2 trunks somehow became stronger then ssj god, and therefore stronger then ssj3 vegito in just a decade of training? hahahahah
There's no reason to believe Trunks couldn't have achieved that level of power. Nothing implies otherwise.

You seem to come to similarly strange conclusions and have similarly rude mannerisms as the guy that called himself "4." Would this happen to be the same person?
Skar wrote:I have to agree with Jesus-is Lord. I can't wrap my head around how Cabba, a Saiyan kid who can't even turn SSJ, is supposed to be as strong as SSJ Vegetto
Considering that immediately following the arc in which Cabba was introduced, Goku was established to be able to entertain Beerus in his Base and dominate SSJ3 Gotenks in his Base, that aligns with somebody being on par with his Base being SSJ Vegetto level. This corroborates with what was established in the first two arcs where Goku/Vegeta attained an astronomically large power boost. At an absolute bare minimum, Cabba is leaps and bounds above SSJ3 Gotenks as was shown with Base Goku/Vegeta immediately after fighting Cabba and being on par.
That's why I think they might've retconned Saiyan Beyond God and that Goku and Vegeta reverted back to their regular pre-BoG base forms.
Saiyan Beyond God was retconned from the movies. What was portrayed in DBS is that they achieved a massive power boost, but unlike "Saiyan Beyond God", didn't change how their transformations functioned in which SSJ and SSG were rendered obsolete.
This would be insane! What the hell kind of training was Cabba doing that allowed him to outperform Goku and Vegeta combined? Why were Goku and Vegeta wasting so much time trying to master and unlock new transformations when they could've gotten thousands or possibly millions of times stronger by just training in base like Cabba did?
Goku and Vegeta couldn't have gotten thousands or millions of times stronger to reach Cabba's level during the previous arcs because they are simply not Cabba. Universe 6 Saiyans were stated to have evolved differently and have different biology than the Universe 7 Saiyans.

Out of Universe, this is simply an example of power creep that has been happening constantly throughout the entire series.
dragon boss z wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It's obvious that SSBE is simply the equivalent to Kaioken but where was that stated? There are people saying that Vegeta was far stronger than Kaioken Goku and on par with UI Omen.

Megumi Ishitani (director) said that on twitter in response to a question from a fan. Also as far as SSBE rivaling Omen, I think people meant the first time or maybe second time in terms of raw power. Remember goku got massively stronger during the ToP and Evolution was on par with Blue KKx20 goku after he had broken his limits twice before and consistently gotten stronger by fighting as seen by Blue Goku doing better against a powered up jiren in episode 123 compared to kkx20 goku vs jiren in the special
Vegeta implied Jiren was using less strength than he did against Goku the first time.
Correct. A lot of people miss this line of dialogue for some reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:12 pm

dragon boss z wrote:I think it was pretty clear it was supposed to be the same rage boost. Vegeta was angry and attacked, Krillin was surprised at that power. Vegeta trains on Earth and Krillin should be able to feel his power when he goes ssj2.
Baseless speculation, Kuririn being surprised at Vegeta's power =/= power was temporary. Vegeta training on Earth means jack, every single arc has the characters training on Earth only for the same characters to be completely clueless about their actual level. Goten and Trunks spar all the time, yet neither Gohan or Vegeta knew how strong they were.
Maybe, though nothing like that is ever stated. I feel like something as big as Vegeta's ssj2 form having a bigger multipliers than Goku's ssj3 would be addressed.
Other than Future Trunks verbally mentioning he increased the boost of his SS2, and it was addressed, SS2 Future Trunks = SS3 Goku. SS2 Vegeta > SS(2?) Black > SS2 Future Trunks = SS3 Goku > base Goku = base Vegeta.
I don't see anyone correctly Tarble in that situation. The point is they were as strong as the guy who ruled over the universe, which was Frieza in his first form. He also compared them to the Ginyu force as if it was impressive, and then the next step would be first form Frieza level.
No one did because he wasn't wrong, comparing them to were they originally ranked doesn't disprove them being as strong as Freeza later on, if they weren't it would have been narratively pointed out, you have no case here.
But it's actually relevant there as it's about beating Buu and Trunks even mentions super Gotenks and in the scan I'm looking at it seems he is being cocky saying "well...maybe just a bit".
Its a power comparison, someone made a false comparison and was corrected, yet you act like the characters wouldn't or haven't done this before.
RoF Piccolo was nerfed, and statements that come from writers that aren't Toriyama shouldn't be taken as seriously.
Piccolo wasn't nerfed, more baseless speculation and DBS is a
collaborated effort, one where Toriyana hinself says he doesn't mind where others take liberities with his story. Who are you, some random poster on the internet, to decide whay counts and doesn't in DB, you have no official say or authority to make such calls in the first place.
Actually that was relevant if you read what I said.
No, it wasn't relevant, your baseless speculation or personal preference isn't proof of anything. Using alternate compabies that have nothing to do with DB makes no sense either.
Power levels and weight lifting have clearly never been linear.
Not quite, we know at least SSJ for Goku is above a KKx20 boost and Goku and Vegeta are shown equal in all of their (Minus SS2) forms consistently in the DBS manga so doing simple deduction U6 and Zamasu arc base and SS Goku and Vegeta are more or less the same as their Buu Saga selves, something I've been saying this entire time

Ya and if Frieza just showed up golden what you just said would be valid. But his golden form was clearly meant to be a big difference from his final form. The anime and manga back this up.
You realize you can't prove anything right? You're just stubbornly going "Nuh Uh" at this point to which I have nothing more to say to you.
The power up was temporary. If it wasn't he could have went ssj3 and beaten Beerus.
Prove it, also, Goku was fighting the same in base as he was in SSG when he lost it, yet, when he went SS there was zero change in performance so I disagree with your opinion there.
Goku even jumped to SSG again during the fight even more proving it was probably temporary as he still had some SSG power left in the tank.
We actually don't know why he turned SSG at the end or what he did (this is verbally said by both Beerus and Goku) exactly so using that as some form of proof of anything seems pointless.
I didn't say he was holding back, but it's not like Vegeta deflected a full power death ball.
Fair enough.
Well they should be at least a bit stronger.
That's fine.
But why would Frieza be mention ssj Caulifla is much stronger than the first ssj he fought if her base was already much stronger? It's the same as the ssj2 Trunks and Goku statement.
Freeza simply stated Caulifla was stronger than SS Goku on Namek, not extra adjectives like much/far stronger.
I said RoF by itself fits pretty well into the hole in the manga.
Not with its power scaling it doesn't, also RoF film doesn't exist in some vacuum separate from BoGs film either so...
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lord turbo
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:32 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
lord turbo wrote: SS Caulifla scales to SS Cabba who's inferior to SS Vegeta who's inferior to Buu Saga SS Goku.
What? Why?

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive but this actually sounds stupid.
When comparing their direct weight training.
Bullza wrote:Base Goku lifted well over 1,000 tons in the anime so the manga was pretty odd in that regard.
In the anime, sure, in the manga its very consistent with Toriyama's previously used weight numbers actually.
Bullza wrote:If Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't even lift 1,000 tons wouldn't it mean that Base Vegeta wouldnt even be able to lift 20 tons?
Yes.
PFM18 wrote:I really don't' see how this can be seen as anything other than an inconsistency. How could you reasonably conclude that this is an indication that U6 Arc Vegeta is weaker than Buu Arc Base Goku?
By using factually stated numbers given to us from the manga.
PFM18 wrote:Goku is able to push enormous boulders and lift cars that are easily several tons during early DB. By this logic, Goku only got a couple times stronger from his time training with Roshi to training with King Kai in the afterlife. It just makes absolutely no sense why Vegeta would be weaker than Buu Arc Goku at this point.
Goku pushing enormous boulders is irrelevant, what matters is hard concrete numbers Toriyama has used consistently through out his series.
Marlowe89 wrote:Well, that just means base Goku can't lift 40 tons.
40 tons was the max Goku could support in mid air, not that he couldn't lift it, the SEG point out that this was very hard because Goku was using bukujustu. That's twice the amount of base Vegeta during the U6T Saga so he would factually be weaker than Buu Saga base Goku.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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MoscoSama
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:45 pm

Even if you don’t think Goku and Vegetas base forms could solo z, it’s ludacris to say u6 arc base Vegeta < Buu arc base Goku. 4-5 years of training post Buu + training with Whis + 3 years in Rosat and you guys think base Vegeta is weaker than Buu Goku from Buu arc.

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Bergamo
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:07 pm

Magetta was at least 1,000 pounds, not 1,000 pounds exactly. It's possible he could be 3,000 or 4,000 pounds. I personally think this may just be one of Toyotaro's mistake, but I don't really care about the exact max weight that Vegeta can lift in each of his forms.
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