Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Doctor.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:22 pm

Bergamo wrote:Jiren blocking a punch means nothing.
It means he had to block a punch in a series where standing still is a fighter's preferred method of no-selling an attack. I mean, I guess you can spin this and label it as a complaint against Toyo's inability to properly convey power like the original series did, but that's just a different way of saying the same thing: that the way Toyo handles fights and the way the original series handled fights are fundamentally different.
Bergamo wrote:2. Jiren is definitely not using his full strength.
Which is immediately rendered moot considering he has to power-up to defeat Roshi. A "holding back" Jiren should still be strong enough to deal with him, considering this "holding back" Jiren is the same Jiren who effortlessly defeated Goku and Hit.
Marlowe89 wrote:Watch people attack a chapter they haven't read yet.
I legitimately don't need to read this chapter to attack this. Like, at all. Honestly. Toyotaro has not set up the necessary circumstances for this situation to be believable. Whatever excuse he comes up with in the same chapter he pulls this bullshit is too little, too late, and won't come across as an organic reason to explain such a ludicrous plot point. So whether the complaint ends up being against the powerscalling being fucked, or the bad storytelling, or both, a complaint is there to be made.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:23 pm

>be kanzenshuu user
>hate manga
>love anime
>wait for manga leaks and live inside manga thread
>"manga is shit, i told you the anime is better"

:roll:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:29 pm

People think Jiren attacks were serious, when what has sense is that he was trying not to kill him .
Is like trying to catch a fly.
I don’t think that was ultra instinct, similar but not , just a lesson taking advantage of the non killing rule and surprising fact of a fly attacking a beast
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:30 pm

MoscoSama wrote:>be kanzenshuu user
>hate manga
>love anime
>wait for manga leaks and live inside manga thread
>"manga is shit, i told you the anime is better"

:roll:
I'm gonna assume this is to me, because it's obvious it is. I hate both versions, and I couldn't care less about the typical pissing contests about which pile of shit shines brightest. The only reason I appear more vocal about my distaste for the manga is because it's the only Dragon Ball material coming out on a regular basis.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:36 pm

Read the spoilers and boy they sure are something special I'll tell you what. I'm not even sure whatever explanation Toyo will give in the chapter such as Roshi having some kind of UI or Jiren suppressing himself will be satisfactory.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:40 pm

Jiren > Gohan = SS Kefla > Blue Goku/Vegeta/Toppo > Golden Freeza

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:41 pm

So Kale's strength is much different in the manga and so is Kefla's. From the looks of it and via statements she's basically just Kale's strength supplemented by Caulifla's skill. So she's roughly as strong as Kale.

And I don't think that Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta given the fact that Vegeta is stated to be the 2nd best in Universe 7. The intent seems obvious there. Goku and Vegeta are the best from their universe.

So the chain seems to look like: SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Golden Frieza=Toppo>Gohan>=Super Saiyan Kefla>=Super Saiyan Berserker Kale

Anilaza's strength seems slightly different as well. Based on all the information presented, Anilaza would be weaker than the the Super Saiyan Blues and Golden Frieza since he was weaker than Kale, yet he was stronger than them in the anime. Though it's possible that he powered up when he sprouted wings and he was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue level strength in his initial state.
Last edited by supersaiyangodgogeta on Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by kudo6000 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:49 pm

Oracle wrote:
Dr_SLUMP wrote:Roshi is the strongest fighter in the series. Everything we've seen was set up by him in order to train Goku. Before becoming an evil emperor by Roshi's order to Zenou, Frieza was just the old refrigerator at Kame House. The angels are actually Roshi's servants and Zenou is his previous student.
Glad Zamasu did not see all of his power or...
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Wow. Roshi actually looks pretty bad ass under the influence of Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:52 pm

MoscoSama wrote:Jiren > Gohan = SS Kefla > Blue Goku/Vegeta/Toppo > Golden Freeza
Where's Roshi? :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:52 pm

Nevaeh wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:Jiren > Gohan = SS Kefla > Blue Goku/Vegeta/Toppo > Golden Freeza
Where's Roshi? :lol:
He's el grand padre level

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:54 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:So Kale's strength is much different in the manga and so is Kefla's. From the looks of it and via statements she's basically just Kale's strength supplemented by Caulifla's skill. So she's roughly as strong as Kale.

And I don't think that Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta given the fact that Vegeta is stated to be the 2nd best in Universe 7. The intent seems obvious there. Goku and Vegeta are the best from their universe.

So the chain seems to look like: SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Golden Frieza=Toppo>Gohan>=Super Saiyan Kefla>=Super Saiyan Berserker Kale

Anilaza's strength seems slightly different as well. Based on all the information presented, Anilaza would be weaker than the the Super Saiyan Blues and Golden Frieza since he was weaker than Kale, yet he was stronger than them in the anime. Though it's possible that he powered up when he sprouted wings and he was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue level strength in his initial state.

How is ss berserker < golden freeza?

Are we really going to take freeza's word at face value? I know diff medium but he thought a GoD was a joke to him in the anime and how that turned out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:06 am

Yeah, of late I haven't cared an awful lot for the intricacies of strength and all that, kind of grown disillusioned with it, but UI(or almost UI) Roshi going toe to toe Jiren is one of, if not, the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Its something that literally defies even the most basic of logic and character consistency within the series. Geez. Don't even think the anime had anything close to being this level of stupid.
Last edited by JazzMazz on Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:08 am

JazzMazz wrote:Yeah, of late I haven't cared an awful lot for the intricacies of strength and all that, kind of grown disillusioned with it, but UI(or almost UI) Roshi going toe to toe Jiren is one of, if not, the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Its something that literally defies even the most basic of logical and character consistency within the series. Geez. Don't even think the anime had anything close to being this level of stupid.
Just curious. What does it defy?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:13 am

Omniboy wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Yeah, of late I haven't cared an awful lot for the intricacies of strength and all that, kind of grown disillusioned with it, but UI(or almost UI) Roshi going toe to toe Jiren is one of, if not, the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Its something that literally defies even the most basic of logical and character consistency within the series. Geez. Don't even think the anime had anything close to being this level of stupid.
Just curious. What does it defy?
How doesn't it defy the most basic power logic and character consistency?

Roshi, a character who hasn't done anything for 20 years, and did nothing in Z, is now fighting TOE to TOE with a character whose stronger than any opponent they've fought previously.

Not even to mention that Roshi himself stepped down as a fighter by the end of 22rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and entrusted everything to the new generation, so how is it that his literally matching a warrior like Jiren at this level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:19 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Yeah, of late I haven't cared an awful lot for the intricacies of strength and all that, kind of grown disillusioned with it, but UI(or almost UI) Roshi going toe to toe Jiren is one of, if not, the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Its something that literally defies even the most basic of logical and character consistency within the series. Geez. Don't even think the anime had anything close to being this level of stupid.
Just curious. What does it defy?
How doesn't it defy the most basic power logic and character consistency?

Roshi, a character who hasn't done anything for 20 years, and did nothing in Z, is now fighting TOE to TOE with a character whose stronger than any opponent they've fought previously.

Not even to mention that Roshi himself stepped down as a fighter by the end of 22rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and entrusted everything to the new generation, so how is it that his literally matching a warrior like Jiren at this level.
Roshi isn't fighting toe to toe with Jiren. He didn't do any damage to Jiren and Jiren eliminated him.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:25 am

Doctor. wrote: I hate both versions,
i don’t know how many times I read that coming from you , a lot :crazy: . Usually you explain in a good manner why you hate dbs , but it’s clear that hate overpower in a negative sense your impressions towards anything coming from the subject you hate , blinds you and make anything coming from you have less weight because we know you have hate inside .
I totally understand the anger that Roshi produce in most of the people that are power lever obsessed, because apparently it doesn’t have sense at all . I don’t think the creators of this series and Japanese fans care that much about it .
You guys act like Roshi killed Jiren , when he just dodge 3-5 punches ... for me the purpose of those scenes is just a way to build up gokus next technique by one of the most calm fighters on the series and a real master of concentration techniques, don’t look for deeper explanations about power levels or stuff like that , Roshi is not stronger than before , he is just an old master that can still teach concentration stuff and encourage his students .
This is fiction, obvious Jiren was just holding his speed and strength in order to not kill an old guy , he didn’t sense a big power on Roshi , so he knew that a regular punch could kill him .
We will see anyways is soon to say anything out of 4 pages , I’m just talking , I rather be positive and enjoy than hate and suffer , because hate is related to suffer .
I hope you get better
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:25 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Yeah, of late I haven't cared an awful lot for the intricacies of strength and all that, kind of grown disillusioned with it, but UI(or almost UI) Roshi going toe to toe Jiren is one of, if not, the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Its something that literally defies even the most basic of logical and character consistency within the series. Geez. Don't even think the anime had anything close to being this level of stupid.
Just curious. What does it defy?
How doesn't it defy the most basic power logic and character consistency?

Roshi, a character who hasn't done anything for 20 years, and did nothing in Z, is now fighting TOE to TOE with a character whose stronger than any opponent they've fought previously.

Not even to mention that Roshi himself stepped down as a fighter by the end of 22rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and entrusted everything to the new generation, so how is it that his literally matching a warrior like Jiren at this level.
I didn't say it that it does not defy anything. I just wanted to know what it defied.

I'm just as curious as you to know how he gained ultra instinct. Did he train after Freeza attacked, and discovered a new technique, did he improve when he learned of the tournament? I just want to find out. However, if I remember correctly, Instinct, at least the black hair variation is not a transformation, as much as it is a state of mind and technique, and maybe Roshi trained himself to get to this state without really improving physically. I don't know.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiosama » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:27 am

Someone needs to check on SethTheProgrammer and Toyotaro Time needs to be cancelled NOW!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:35 am

prince212 wrote:i don’t know how many times I read that coming from you , a lot :crazy: . Usually you explain in a good manner why you hate dbs , but it’s clear that hate overpower in a negative sense your impressions towards anything coming from the subject you hate , blinds you and make anything coming from you have less weight because we know you have hate inside .
I hate Dragon Ball Super, I don't hate Dragon Ball. Ultimately, I want the series to improve, that's why I complain. Dragon Ball Super isn't moving the series in the way I think it should, so I keep complaining about all the stupid shit. I defended the series with passion back before the ToP, even the dreaded movie retellings; go back and read my posts if you want proof. Of course, you and everyone else who keeps accusing me of being biased, as if that means anything, wouldn't know because you weren't around at that point. Which is fine, you're not obligated to know about everything I post, but I'm only saying that I hate the series now because it has given me countless reasons to hate it. I haven't gone in predisposed to dislike it; in fact, it was the very opposite.
prince212 wrote:You guys act like Roshi killed Jiren , when he just dodge 3-5 punches ... for me the purpose of those scenes is just a way to build up gokus next technique by one of the most calm fighters on the series and a real master of concentration techniques, don’t look for deeper explanations about power levels or stuff like that
This doesn't even make sense thematically. Goku left Roshi out in the dust decades ago. Roshi himself stated this. Goku has continually gone ahead and gathered stronger and stronger masters to teach him new techniques and ways of bettering himself, and then when he did so, he left them in the dust as well. Now Goku has gone back and has to learn from his old master again, instead of learning from his current master. Goku has to re-surpass his master when he has already done so decades in the past. Roshi is now showing prowess he has never done in Z, in spite of having every chance and opportunity to do so; he didn't because he himself knew he could no longer keep up. Now while Roshi does have an arc this tournament about regaining his fighting spirit, such a spectacular performance completely undermines Goku's progress and Roshi's arc in the original series and Whis' position as Goku's master.

It doesn't make sense from a power standpoint and it doesn't make sense from a character standpoint. It's a badly executed idea on every level you can think of, and that's why it's being criticized. Of course this is only the strength thread, so that's what I'm focusing on for the moment, but I think the way it damages the story is far greater than the powerlevel inconsistency.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:38 am

Bergamo wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
Just curious. What does it defy?
How doesn't it defy the most basic power logic and character consistency?

Roshi, a character who hasn't done anything for 20 years, and did nothing in Z, is now fighting TOE to TOE with a character whose stronger than any opponent they've fought previously.

Not even to mention that Roshi himself stepped down as a fighter by the end of 22rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and entrusted everything to the new generation, so how is it that his literally matching a warrior like Jiren at this level.
Roshi isn't fighting toe to toe with Jiren. He didn't do any damage to Jiren and Jiren eliminated him.
Neither has any other character, but from what we've seen his performed just as well against Jiren as characters like Goku and Hit did and that's the problem. He shouldn't be doing as well as characters as Goku and Hit, in fact, I would argue his doing better, because his been able to dodge Jiren's attacks as well.

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