Bullza wrote:I'll take this slow down to bring up something else. I've so far rewatched the first 22 episodes of Super. I wouldn't say anything has become any more clear to me than before up to yet.
But back to the old "Base Gohan" discussion.
He has to be stronger than Piccolo. After Tagoma killed Shisami, they said Gohan was the strongest and that wasn't including Super Saiyan. They said Tagoma was as strong as Base Gohan and he slaughtered Piccolo.
Piccolo was wearing weights and then shortly after when he wasn't wearing them he was shown being on par with Gohan so that's clearly how that's meant to be viewed, no getting round it.
What I mainly wanted to bring up is that, even after they'd felt Frieza's power they made out that Buu was going to be their best hope. So he'd be stronger than the other Z Fighters there but would he have been stronger than Frieza in his First Form?
Yes, that's what Krillin's statement would mean. He could beat final form Freeza too even going by the anime's inconsistent power scaling, since he's later shown to be far stronger than Basil who can trade blows with SS Goku, and easily bests a stronger base Goku in a sparring match after one hour of training and no noted power increase. There seems to be a consistent theme of keeping him out of battles with weaker characters. It also fits nicely with Freeza rushing off to fight Goku immediately after getting his golden form, apparently not thinking he was strong enough before that, despite all he knows about Goku being that he managed to somehow beat Majin Buu.
Those scenes make a lot more sense when you remember ROF. They were written for a Gohan who was too weak to use SS1 for more than a few seconds (probably well below Namek Goku) and a Piccolo who exhausted himself fighting Saibamen-tier henchmen, and was utterly helpless against a Dodoria-tier henchman. Piccolo is explicitly
weaker than base
Gohan in that movie too. I initially had a hard time believing that they had decayed that much but Krillin getting hurt by a bullet makes it very clear where Toei stands on that particular issue.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Piccolo attacking Tagoma doesn't really say much other than he most likely underestimated him. The attack on Base Gohan was a sneak attack, so it doesn't really say much when it comes to his comparison with Piccolo. Gohan being regarded as the strongest and his sparring match with Piccolo shows them to be roughly around the same level. Suppressed Tagoma clowned Piccolo. Super Saiyan Gohan demolished the powered-up Ginyu Tagoma. Piccolo is a lot weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan.
I still don't understand why Sorbet would refer to Shisami as the strongest in Freeza's army and then hype up Tagoma for surpassing the Ginyu Force. Shisami should already be far above that if Sorbet believes he'll defeat the entire team alone.
Again, this makes a lot more sense when you remember that in ROF, Shisami is weaker than Zarbon and about on par with Dodoria (which actually goes along well with 1st form Freeza's 1.3 million number). Thus, surpassing the Ginyus would be impressive for Tagoma. Yet he still wouldn't have surpassed Freeza's former level of power or, say, King Cold (it would be worth saying if he had). Krillin getting hurt by a bullet, combined with Sorbet announcing in an impressed tone that Tagoma had surpassed (gasp) the Ginyu Force
were what pushed me over the edge. Piccolo getting beaten up by a Zarbon stand-in, Gohan being unable to maintain Super Saiyan for more than a few seconds, the gang having trouble with henchmen weaker than Raditz, Piccolo expending a noticeable amount of energy fighting said henchmen, Freeza dominating everyone with a power level of 1.3 million... it all had to be intentional, and in its own context, it's consistent.
AvatarReiko wrote:Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?
Gohan is stronger (but Kefla is also nerfed because SSB KK isn't a thing there). People like to harp on Krillin's statement that implies he's not stronger than Goku, but Krillin's commentary is worthless because he can't sense god ki. Vados can and she says Kefla is possibly the strongest competitor despite sensing CSSB Vegeta and Toppo going at each other full force.