Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:26 am

Koitsukai wrote:So, Kefla in the anime is of the highest blue tier or more, and in the manga, Gohan tier. I guess Toriyama never made clear where she was suppose to stand, and in both, her power level is left to the spectator's choice (I mean, we can't fully agree like we do about other fighters, with the genki dama and all that, and in the manga don't know if she got weaker or if Gohan got incredibly incredibly incredibly stronger).
So do you guys think this nerfs her down a bit? I mean, is like they are two different characters, we sort of can reconciliate pretty much everyone in the DB universe but Kefla is an odd ball. I for one, believe now that a fully rested SSBlue Goku could take her, after seeing Gohan do that in the manga.

Oh Toriyama, and to think people blame everything on Toei
She was nerfed to hell and back in the manga.

In the anime she's over 40 times stronger than Goku Blue. She is definitely GoD tier, just in the lowest part of the tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:35 am

Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:25 am

AvatarReiko wrote:Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?
both
Kefla should be MSSB+ tier based on her being at least berserk Kale level with full control, but she was beaten by Gohan who was implied to still be weaker than Goku. So Kefla was nerfed to below MSSB level. And Gohan, who was stated by Piccolo to only have just gotten his fighting ability back and was getting stronger during the fight was bumped up to at least low god tier for some reason.
As of now I would say Kefla and Gohan are around golden Frieza level, which would probably be right below MSSB Goku level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:49 am

The whole Kale-Kefla thing is really strange. We have Vados saying that Kefla has Kale's power and Caulifla's skill, referring to her as unbeatable by other contestants even after seeing what Jiren did to Goku and Hit.

But then she ties with Gohan, who's stated to be weaker than Goku by Krilin...? Either Vados was hyping her up too much, or Krilin can't sense God Ki and his statement is an outlier? I sincerely doubt Toyotaro forgot about that, and if Kefla > Jiren (suppressed) was true shouldn't Goku be way more surprised by Gohan's power rather than saying "meh, he's good"? This is my scale:

Jiren >>> MSSBs ~ Toppo >> Gohan ~ Kefla > Kale (peak power) > Golden Freezer (fucking around) > SSG

But even then Kale sent flying Vegeta and Toppo with a single hit... urgh this is a mess.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:17 am

AvatarReiko wrote:Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?
Toyo hit Kefla with one of the biggest nerf hammers ever seen

Base Kefla not being stronger than Kale would've been weird. SUPER SAIYAN Kefla not being stronger not even by a little is :crazy:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:26 am

Nevaeh wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?
Toyo hit Kefla with one of the biggest nerf hammers ever seen

Base Kefla not being stronger than Kale would've been weird. SUPER SAIYAN Kefla not being stronger not even by a little is :crazy:
Seems as though Kefla's fusion in the manga is more like Kibitoshin's failure of a fusion than Vegito, whilst in the anime she's an appropriately powerful Saiyan fusion off of already powerful Universe 6 Saiyans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:53 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:As far as Gohan being called the most powerful by Tagoma, he could've just deduced that based on Gohan being the one to step up to fight Shisami.
I'm not sure if there's any implication that Base Gohan specifically was being referred to as the strongest, just Gohan in general.
At a push you could probably wave off Tagoma's comment because the Z Fighters were holding back anyway and Piccolo was shown to power up just as he went for Tagoma.

But you still have Gohan saying that Tagoma is on par with himself and Tagoma no sold Piccolo's punch.

How does that get explained? Was Gohan completely wrong? Did Piccolo's weighted clothing drag him all the way down? What about Piccolo's first fight with Gohan?

But yeah it's still odd. How could he have gone from being at best as strong as Base Gohan to as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in just a year? If Tagoma is stronger than Piccolo then it would mean he would have gone from being Zarbon level to like Perfect Cell level in four months?

He'd end up having even an even greater rate of improvement than Frieza did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:57 am

Bullza wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:As far as Gohan being called the most powerful by Tagoma, he could've just deduced that based on Gohan being the one to step up to fight Shisami.
I'm not sure if there's any implication that Base Gohan specifically was being referred to as the strongest, just Gohan in general.
At a push you could probably wave off Tagoma's comment because the Z Fighters were holding back anyway and Piccolo was shown to power up just as he went for Tagoma.

But you still have Gohan saying that Tagoma is on par with himself and Tagoma no sold Piccolo's punch.

How does that get explained? Was Gohan completely wrong? Did Piccolo's weighted clothing drag him all the way down? What about Piccolo's first fight with Gohan?

But yeah it's still odd. How could he have gone from being at best as strong as Base Gohan to as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in just a year? If Tagoma is stronger than Piccolo then it would mean he would have gone from being Zarbon level to like Perfect Cell level in four months?

He'd end up having even an even greater rate of improvement than Frieza did.
To be fair, it was actually over 2 years since the events of RoF.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:45 am

Green wrote:The whole Kale-Kefla thing is really strange. We have Vados saying that Kefla has Kale's power and Caulifla's skill, referring to her as unbeatable by other contestants even after seeing what Jiren did to Goku and Hit.

But then she ties with Gohan, who's stated to be weaker than Goku by Krilin...? Either Vados was hyping her up too much, or Krilin can't sense God Ki and his statement is an outlier? I sincerely doubt Toyotaro forgot about that, and if Kefla > Jiren (suppressed) was true shouldn't Goku be way more surprised by Gohan's power rather than saying "meh, he's good"? This is my scale:

Jiren >>> MSSBs ~ Toppo >> Gohan ~ Kefla > Kale (peak power) > Golden Freezer (fucking around) > SSG

But even then Kale sent flying Vegeta and Toppo with a single hit... urgh this is a mess.
Yes, it is definitely a mess. We have conflicting statements and what is being shown contradicts most people's intuition that Kefla>>>>>>>Kale because instead we have Kefla~Kale in power for no reason.

"A mess" is a very good way to describe what we have here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:54 am

That Gohan doesn't actually have a bang despite supposedly being in his Ultimate Form means that he wasn't necessarily in his Ultimate Form when he fought Beerus in the manga either.

Which probably helps the idea that he wasn't using his Ultimate Form when he fought Beerus in the anime either then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:58 am

Green wrote:The whole Kale-Kefla thing is really strange. We have Vados saying that Kefla has Kale's power and Caulifla's skill, referring to her as unbeatable by other contestants even after seeing what Jiren did to Goku and Hit.

But then she ties with Gohan, who's stated to be weaker than Goku by Krilin...? Either Vados was hyping her up too much, or Krilin can't sense God Ki and his statement is an outlier? I sincerely doubt Toyotaro forgot about that, and if Kefla > Jiren (suppressed) was true shouldn't Goku be way more surprised by Gohan's power rather than saying "meh, he's good"? This is my scale:

Jiren >>> MSSBs ~ Toppo >> Gohan ~ Kefla > Kale (peak power) > Golden Freezer (fucking around) > SSG

But even then Kale sent flying Vegeta and Toppo with a single hit... urgh this is a mess.
Krillin doesn't say that Gohan is weaker than Goku. He is surprised and wonders that if Gohan quit his "day job" and trained himself everyday, he would surpass Goku, not saying that he hasn't already surpassed Goku. Kale was able to break a SSB Goku's guard. However, at that time, Goku wasn't serious. Kale's stamina was also getting lowered as she used more of her power. Kefla is definitely stronger than Kale and by logic, much stronger than CSSB Goku. Basically, they used the fact that Gohan is a hybrid Saiyan again to explain his massive illogical jump in power to equal Kefla. I don't very much like it, but it is what it is. It's just like Freeza training for 4 months to go from weaker than Android 18 to stronger than SSB Goku. It's DB. They will make characters relevant when they want to. In both the anime and manga, Gohan is above SSB tier. It seems that effort and hard work that pure-blooded Saiyans do to get stronger is easily overshadowed by hybrid Saiyans no matter what. The only disadvantage to being a hybrid Saiyan is their lack of thirst for battle. When the Elder Kaioshin unlocked all of Gohan's latent potential, he unlocked his 'human' potential which is why he didn't need to go Super Saiyan. Thus, the Elder Kaioshin said that 'transformations are just for showbiz'. By not going Super Saiyan, he probably doesn't have as much stamina drain either. Still weird why his human potential would be greater than his Saiyan potential, but whatever, I can buy it.

Jiren > Kelfa ~ Gohan > Kale > CSSB Goku ~ CSSB Vegeta ~ Toppo > Golden Freeza
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:02 am

Green wrote: But even then Kale sent flying Vegeta and Toppo with a single hit... urgh this is a mess.
You can send characters flying if you catch them off-guard: Trunks did it to SSR Black in both the anime and manga. According to Vegeta in that very chapter, catching people off-guard is what Kale's transformation relies on.

Like you said, Kale is stronger than a non-serious Golden Freeza and Kefla isn't vastly stronger than Kale. No internal contradictions, but it is a bit vague. I'd probably put them both on the lower end of Blue tier at their max.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:53 pm

Bullza wrote:I'll take this slow down to bring up something else. I've so far rewatched the first 22 episodes of Super. I wouldn't say anything has become any more clear to me than before up to yet.

But back to the old "Base Gohan" discussion.

He has to be stronger than Piccolo. After Tagoma killed Shisami, they said Gohan was the strongest and that wasn't including Super Saiyan. They said Tagoma was as strong as Base Gohan and he slaughtered Piccolo.

Piccolo was wearing weights and then shortly after when he wasn't wearing them he was shown being on par with Gohan so that's clearly how that's meant to be viewed, no getting round it.

What I mainly wanted to bring up is that, even after they'd felt Frieza's power they made out that Buu was going to be their best hope. So he'd be stronger than the other Z Fighters there but would he have been stronger than Frieza in his First Form?
Yes, that's what Krillin's statement would mean. He could beat final form Freeza too even going by the anime's inconsistent power scaling, since he's later shown to be far stronger than Basil who can trade blows with SS Goku, and easily bests a stronger base Goku in a sparring match after one hour of training and no noted power increase. There seems to be a consistent theme of keeping him out of battles with weaker characters. It also fits nicely with Freeza rushing off to fight Goku immediately after getting his golden form, apparently not thinking he was strong enough before that, despite all he knows about Goku being that he managed to somehow beat Majin Buu.

Those scenes make a lot more sense when you remember ROF. They were written for a Gohan who was too weak to use SS1 for more than a few seconds (probably well below Namek Goku) and a Piccolo who exhausted himself fighting Saibamen-tier henchmen, and was utterly helpless against a Dodoria-tier henchman. Piccolo is explicitly weaker than base Gohan in that movie too. I initially had a hard time believing that they had decayed that much but Krillin getting hurt by a bullet makes it very clear where Toei stands on that particular issue.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Piccolo attacking Tagoma doesn't really say much other than he most likely underestimated him. The attack on Base Gohan was a sneak attack, so it doesn't really say much when it comes to his comparison with Piccolo. Gohan being regarded as the strongest and his sparring match with Piccolo shows them to be roughly around the same level. Suppressed Tagoma clowned Piccolo. Super Saiyan Gohan demolished the powered-up Ginyu Tagoma. Piccolo is a lot weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan.

I still don't understand why Sorbet would refer to Shisami as the strongest in Freeza's army and then hype up Tagoma for surpassing the Ginyu Force. Shisami should already be far above that if Sorbet believes he'll defeat the entire team alone.
Again, this makes a lot more sense when you remember that in ROF, Shisami is weaker than Zarbon and about on par with Dodoria (which actually goes along well with 1st form Freeza's 1.3 million number). Thus, surpassing the Ginyus would be impressive for Tagoma. Yet he still wouldn't have surpassed Freeza's former level of power or, say, King Cold (it would be worth saying if he had). Krillin getting hurt by a bullet, combined with Sorbet announcing in an impressed tone that Tagoma had surpassed (gasp) the Ginyu Force were what pushed me over the edge. Piccolo getting beaten up by a Zarbon stand-in, Gohan being unable to maintain Super Saiyan for more than a few seconds, the gang having trouble with henchmen weaker than Raditz, Piccolo expending a noticeable amount of energy fighting said henchmen, Freeza dominating everyone with a power level of 1.3 million... it all had to be intentional, and in its own context, it's consistent.
AvatarReiko wrote:Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?
Gohan is stronger (but Kefla is also nerfed because SSB KK isn't a thing there). People like to harp on Krillin's statement that implies he's not stronger than Goku, but Krillin's commentary is worthless because he can't sense god ki. Vados can and she says Kefla is possibly the strongest competitor despite sensing CSSB Vegeta and Toppo going at each other full force.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:33 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Nevaeh wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:Is Gohan OP in the manga or is Kefla just nerfed as f? Which one?
Toyo hit Kefla with one of the biggest nerf hammers ever seen

Base Kefla not being stronger than Kale would've been weird. SUPER SAIYAN Kefla not being stronger not even by a little is :crazy:
Seems as though Kefla's fusion in the manga is more like Kibitoshin's failure of a fusion than Vegito, whilst in the anime she's an appropriately powerful Saiyan fusion off of already powerful Universe 6 Saiyans.
But even Kibitoshin was confirmed to be stronger than Shin lol.

Toyo handled Kefla very bladly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:48 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Green wrote: But even then Kale sent flying Vegeta and Toppo with a single hit... urgh this is a mess.
You can send characters flying if you catch them off-guard: Trunks did it to SSR Black in both the anime and manga. According to Vegeta in that very chapter, catching people off-guard is what Kale's transformation relies on.

Like you said, Kale is stronger than a non-serious Golden Freeza and Kefla isn't vastly stronger than Kale. No internal contradictions, but it is a bit vague. I'd probably put them both on the lower end of Blue tier at their max.
Yeah, I agree with you on that: Vegeta didn't find her worthy to fight and Freezer was confident that he could take her on, but still Vados' comment on Kefla sticks out like a sore thumb, since she sensed everyone including Jiren.

Still, more things point out to "MSSB > Kale/Kefla" than not, so that's what I go with. Also Kefla not being an extraordinary fusion makes sense, considering the sheer power gap between Kale and Caulifla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:01 pm

It's weird. I actually thought the manga would explain how Gohan could take Kefla. We got no explanation at all.

But we do know that the Super manga instinctively continues from Toriyama's original manga.
Which has stated a disproportional Potara fusion between a stronger and mcuh weaker person can not make much of a difference and perhaps even weaken the fusion...

Even Kale's base form packed more of a punch than Caulifla's SSJ1 according to Golden Freeza. Then she gets infinitely stronger by being Blue level and possibly some more?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:08 pm

Frieza did say to Goku that he knew he had beaten Buu but he was still surprised he'd grown as strong as he has.

Both he and Base Goku should be above Kid Buu at that point. Frieza in his First Form is probably weaker than the Good Buu.

Another thing I noticed with these official subs is that rather than say Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue to surpass Frieza, it says he transformed in order to overcome him. Which isn't really the same thing. So Frieza doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Base Goku of which at the time nobody really thought anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:15 pm

it's worth to remember neither Kale or Caulifla reached SS2 in the manga.
Especially Caulifla's being uber-talented, managing to reach SS2 easily(the first time totally by instinctual chance!)

In short, it's less "Kefla has been nerfed" and more "the components of Kefla have been nerfed"

That said, we didn't see ToP Gohan fighting even remotely seriously before, in the manga. At very least a whole chapter should have been dedicated to explain how the hell he managed to get that strong, not a throwaway line. This is just bad writing\bad timing

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:50 pm

Bullza wrote:Frieza did say to Goku that he knew he had beaten Buu but he was still surprised he'd grown as strong as he has.

Both he and Base Goku should be above Kid Buu at that point. Frieza in his First Form is probably weaker than the Good Buu.

Another thing I noticed with these official subs is that rather than say Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue to surpass Frieza, it says he transformed in order to overcome him. Which isn't really the same thing. So Frieza doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Base Goku of which at the time nobody really thought anyway.
Funny enough, Kuririn does say they should be fine with Boo around. I also do agree, they should be stronger than Pure Boo at least.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:18 pm

If they would've explained how Gohan got that strong, the whole Kefla mess wouldn't be so. Kefla would be more or less what the anime portrayed her to be, while Gohan would be around that level which wouldn't be a bad thing at all... unless you don't explain it, of course. But whatever, we didn't even get to see how that fight went on, lol

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