Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:58 pm

ZombieVito wrote:I also do agree, they should be stronger than Pure Boo at least.
Yeah at this point it would seem like they should be. Where the confusion comes from later is that Super Saiyan Trunks is weaker than Dabura and later he's shown as a Super Saiyan 2 he's shown to be roughly as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Zamasu is about as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Him being tens of times stronger than Kid Buu? A bit much.

I'd definitely think there was some sort of retcon but there's still a few things here and there that are questionable

User avatar
Rebel Instinct
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:22 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rebel Instinct » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:18 pm

Regarding Gohan vs. Kefla:

I will now state some pertinent information regarding both characters. No "headcanon". No assumptions. Only direct statements, information and explicit feats taken straight from the manga. No more, no less.

- As far we are told during the Tournament of Destroyers, Cabba is roughly on par with Vegeta in his base form. "i knew it. You're quite the experienced fighter... As expected of a Saiyan warrior. In your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself." (Ch. 12, Pg. 6) No other statements have been made since then. It is unknown if Cabba has gotten any stronger since then.

- Like Cabba, Caulifla is only capable of accessing the basic Super Saiyan transformation. She does not possess Super Saiyan 2.

- In her Super Saiyan form, Caulifla does not demonstrate any feats that put her above Super Saiyan Cabba. If she is stronger than Cabba, the amount is so negligible as to be visually indistinguishable. (Ch. 37, Pgs. 3-33)

- Kale's initial Super Saiyan transformation boasts rapidly increasing power that was able to assault Golden Frieza by catching him off guard. "Hmph. I'll say it again -- Super Saiyans no longer surprise me..." "What's going on with her? I've never seen this breed of Super Saiyan." (Ch. 37, Pgs. 35-39) Kale's rapidly increasing power also allows her to briefly break Completed SSB Goku's guard. "Ugh! What the--?!" "Y-you just keep getting stronger! How's that possible?!" (Ch.37, Pg. 43) At this point, Frieza states that he could have handled Kale if he were to take her seriously. "I'm more than capable of handling that Saiyan. I just need to take her seriously!!" (Ch. 37, Pg. 44) Goku is otherwise completely unharmed.

- Kale then powers up. "Her ki just spiked again?! How much power was she hiding...?!" (Ch. 37, Pgs. 44-45) Kale then goes on a rampage. It is unknown exactly how powerful Kale is at this point.

- Kale briefly catches both Toppo and Completed SSB Vegeta off guard and knocks them aside. Both Toppo and Vegeta are otherwise completely unharmed. (Ch. 38, Pgs. 4-7)

- According to Cabba, Kale's transformation grants great strength, but will eventually cause her body to destroy itself. "Once they awaken, it's all over. Their power keeps growing, and they rampage until they basically self-destruct..." (Ch. 38, Pg. 21)

- Observing Kale's battle with the Pride Troopers, Vegeta remarks that her form is "An extreme transformation that emphasizes pure power. That makes her full of openings. Those power house moves may catch you off guard at first, but they're simple enough to read after observing a bit. Universe 11's warriors have already seen through her." (Ch. 38, Pg. 25) Whis later adds that "We also have Universe 11's stellar teamwork to thank. They've always fought as a team, so they're ready to adapt to any given opponent instantly." (Ch. 38, Pg. 27)

- Vegeta goes on to explicitly state "See? She's already losing power and is nearly at her limit." (Ch. 38, Pg. 26) Later, Vegeta adds "No need for me to step in. Better to let them destroy each other." and completely disregards Kale as a threat. (Ch. 38, Pg. 27)

- The coordinated effort of the Pride Troopers is enough to handle Kale and nearly ring her out. (Ch. 38, Pgs. 24-33)

- The same Pride Troopers that handled and nearly rung Kale out were easily handled by Goku alone in his basic Super Saiyan form. (Ch. 33, Pgs. 36-40) This shows that Kale's level of power has decreased dramatically from its peak. If Kale was above Golden Frieza and Completed SSB Goku at the peak of her power, she's expended so much energy that she isn't anymore and can be defeated by opponents that Super Saiyan Goku can handle by himself. This does not indicate that Kale has weakened to the same strength as Super Saiyan Goku, rather it only indicates that at her current level, Super Saiyan Goku alone would be enough to defeat her.

- It is this weakened version of Kale that fuses with Super Saiyan Caulifla.

- In the Future Trunks arc, we are shown that the level of power/exhaustion of the component fighters of a Potara fusion effects the power of the resultant fusion. A beaten and exhausted Goku and Vegeta save their final Senzu and instead fuse into Vegito first. (Ch. 23, Pgs. 29-30) As Vegito, they then consume the Senzu to restore their strength and maximize their power in order to fight Merged Zamasu. (Ch. 23, Pgs. 35-36)

- According to Goku/Vegeta/Vegito's actions in chapter 23, we know that both Caulifla and Kale's physical state has an affect on the resultant power of Kefla. Caulifla was beaten and exhausted after fighting Golden Frieza. Kale was not at the peak of her power by the time she fused with Caulifla and was nearly defeated by warriors that gave Goku no trouble in his ordinary Super Saiyan form. This means that Kefla was created from an exhausted Caulifla and Kale and without Kale's full power intact. Were Caulifla and Kale to have fused at the peak of their power, Kefla's power would have been dramatically higher.

- Upon fusing, Vados comments on Kefla's power, saying "It seems this happy accident led to the ultimate warrior--with Kale's sheer power and Caulifla's sense for battle in one body, they can combine their respective strengths. In fact, Kefla may be unmatched on this battlefield." (Ch. 38, Pg. 41) It should be noted that none of Vados's statements are definitive. Her observations appear to be speculative ("...may be unmatched..."). Vados also makes no qualitative statements about the specific amount of power Caulifla or Kale had remaining before fusing or how much was conferred to Kefla. She only notes that Kale contributed to the lion's share of Kefla's power. (...Kale's sheer power and Caulifla's battle sense...)

- As of the Future Trunks arc, Gohan has been training in the gravity room at Capsule Corp. to prepare for any upcoming threats. He explicitly says to Future Trunks "Well, actually I've started using the gravity room to train . No one has asked me to join in any fights recently... It would be pretty lousy of me to not help out if something big happens." (Jump Victory Carnival 2017 Future Trunks Arc Bonus Chapter)

- Prior to the Tournament of Power, Vegeta vouches for Gohan while considering recruits for the team. When Beerus asks if he can be counted on, Vegeta remarks "If he can regain his instincts." (Ch. 31, Pg. 43) Later, Piccolo tells Goku that he will train Gohan in preparation for the Tournament and requests a bag of Senzus. "I'm saying I'm going to train him up before the event." "You actually think we can win this thing without him?' (Ch. 31, Pg. 45)

- Before leaving for the Tournament, Vegeta comments on Gohan's current state after Piccolo's training with a smile. "Hey Gohan. I hardly recognized you. You look ready to go." Gohan confirms that he is ready to fight. "I am. Thanks to Piccolo!" (Ch. 32, Pg. 36)

- During the Tournament of Power, Gohan alone fights effectively against all three members of the Trio de Dangers simultaneously. (Ch. 34, Pgs. 5-8) When Piccolo finds himself in trouble with Rozel, Gohan blows all three of the Trio de Dangers away with a single attack.(Ch. 34, Pg. 19) According to statements made later by both Piccolo and Gohan when faced with the entire Universe 9 team, Gohan did this while suppressing his full power. "N-no choice. Better use my full power..." "H-Hold on Gohan. Save that for later." (Ch. 34, Pg. 23)

- During Gohan's fight with Kefla, Gohan remarks that he no longer needs to go Super Saiyan and has no use for it. "I don't do that anymore. No need to, really." (Ch. 39, Pg. 6) This indicates that Gohan is fighting in his Ultimate/Full Potential state.

- Observing Gohan's battle with Kefla, Piccolo states that he could only help Gohan regain his battle sense in the short amount of time before the Tournament. "That's Gohan for you. Re-gaining his battle sense was all he could do in that brief period of training, but... ...He's managed to grow stronger than ever during this fight." This shows that the level of power Gohan had gained on his own in the gravity room was the level of power he arrived with at the Tournament. This also shows that on top of that power, Gohan had actually improved while fighting during the Tournament itself and is now stronger than he was before.

- Both Piccolo and Krillin remark that Gohan's current level of power is due to his unique potential. "That's Gohan for you." "Whoa... Talk about innate talent... Makes you wonder if he could get stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and dedicated himself to training!!" Even Goku is impressed by his son's fighting ability. "Didn't know Gohan could fight this good!" (Ch. 39, Pg. 7)

- Despite the circumstances of Kefla's full power being a fraction of what it should be (due to the physical states of both Caulifla and Kale prior to fusing), Gohan admits that he was pushed to his absolute limits fighting against her. "You're pretty strong yourself... and the truth is, I'm at my limit..." (Ch. 39, Pg. 12) This shows that despite Kefla not being at full strength, it took every ounce of Gohan's strength just to tie with her.

That is all I have to say. Use this information to suit your arguments as you see fit. Or, ignore it completely. I don't care which. This is the one and only post I will be making regarding this subject. I will not be discussing or arguing with anyone about this going forward. Period.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgment's and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" whatever that means to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves in little sectors trying to be the "superior faction" ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense(like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking up jokes.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8813
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Bullza wrote:Frieza did say to Goku that he knew he had beaten Buu but he was still surprised he'd grown as strong as he has.

Both he and Base Goku should be above Kid Buu at that point. Frieza in his First Form is probably weaker than the Good Buu.

Another thing I noticed with these official subs is that rather than say Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue to surpass Frieza, it says he transformed in order to overcome him. Which isn't really the same thing. So Frieza doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Base Goku of which at the time nobody really thought anyway.
It's not like Freeza has any real way of telling how strong Buu was. And we later outright see Mr. Buu >>> Base Goku after an hour of training and no noted change in power. Not to mention Basil trading blows with SS Goku.

I honestly think that, assuming no retcon, base Freeza and base Goku aren't supposed to be very strong, rather the people around them are just extremely weak. Keep in mind that even the anime has to lead to that Uub fight.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3298
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:44 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:snip
Where have you been? This is one of the best posts I have seen on Kanzenshuu nowadays. Good structure, references, connection etc. Just work on being more receptive about other people’s contributions.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:30 pm

Bullza wrote: Yeah at this point it would seem like they should be. Where the confusion comes from later is that Super Saiyan Trunks is weaker than Dabura and later he's shown as a Super Saiyan 2 he's shown to be roughly as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Zamasu is about as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Him being tens of times stronger than Kid Buu? A bit much.

I'd definitely think there was some sort of retcon but there's still a few things here and there that are questionable
I honestly don't see anything wrong here.

Future Trunks is a hybrid and fought to the death against Black for a year. There's nothing wrong with him getting a big boost considering what Toriyama said about Saiyans in the BoG interview.

Zamasu is the strongest Kaioshin in existence across the whole multiverse and South Kaioshin was already capable of holding his own to some degree against Pure Boo. I don't see an issue with him being dozens of times stronger than South Kaioshin since Zamasu trains.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:28 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:It's not like Freeza has any real way of telling how strong Buu was. And we later outright see Mr. Buu >>> Base Goku after an hour of training and no noted change in power. Not to mention Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
He wouldn't know exactly how strong Buu is but he knows he's strong enough to not fight him. The line would have been written to make a comparison too and it's not like Goku corrected him.

I wouldn't say Good Buu was shown to be far above Base Goku but then on the other hand you had Base Goku shown to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who is on par with Super Buu and vastly more powerful than Good Buu.
I honestly think that, assuming no retcon, base Freeza and base Goku aren't supposed to be very strong, rather the people around them are just extremely weak.
Well again had it not been for the Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks fight, the two of them wouldn't have to be considered so powerful. I'd still say they were stronger than Kid Buu though because Base Goku put up a much better fight against Beerus than he did as a Super Saiyan 3 which seems to go along with them being above Kid Buu.
ZombieVito wrote:Future Trunks is a hybrid and fought to the death against Black for a year. There's nothing wrong with him getting a big boost considering what Toriyama said about Saiyans in the BoG interview.
Well that was generally true for himself and Gohan fighting the Androids to the death for a few years and they didn't become overwhelmingly powerful. To go from being weaker than Dabura as a Super Saiyan to stronger than Kid Buu in Base form in just a year seems kinda hard to swallow.

That's a Frieza style rate of growth.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8813
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:59 am

Bullza wrote: He wouldn't know exactly how strong Buu is but he knows he's strong enough to not fight him. The line would have been written to make a comparison too and it's not like Goku corrected him.
"He didn't correct him" is not evidence of anything, especially when Goku actually is stronger than Buu, just not in the particular form he's using. And you ignored the part about Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
I wouldn't say Good Buu was shown to be far above Base Goku but then on the other hand you had Base Goku shown to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who is on par with Super Buu and vastly more powerful than Good Buu.
Gotenks is probably weaker than Captain Ginyu now. Piccolo was explicitly weaker than Zarbon and implicitly weaker than the Ginyus, while Gohan as a Super Saiyan was explicitly below 1.3 million. There's no real point in writing off all the overwhelming evidence as "errors" at this point after the Krillin bullet scene definitively showed that, yes, a few years of not training in Toei's world really does cause you to lose 99.9999% of your power. Why Krillin and Gohan, yet nobody else?
Well again had it not been for the Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks fight, the two of them wouldn't have to be considered so powerful.
Even ignoring the possibility that this is simple filler nonsense in the same vein as a very similar scene of base Vegeta beating up SS3 Gotenks back in Z (in Buu's body), there is quite sadly little evidence that Gotenks didn't simply drop to a pathetic shadow of his former self. In fact he'd pretty much have to given the pathetic decay the others went through.

There’s a very real tendency and problem with the Dragonball discussion community to assume that nobody ever gets weaker, and thus it’s just rampant and constant upward escalation. Despite this blatantly contradicting Toei's version of the universe.
I'd still say they were stronger than Kid Buu though because Base Goku put up a much better fight against Beerus than he did as a Super Saiyan 3 which seems to go along with them being above Kid Buu.
That's meaningless though because we know that Beerus was only using a tiny, tiny percentage of his strength, so whether he chose to use 0.01% or 0.02% is totally arbitrary.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:19 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:And you ignored the part about Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
Well that doesn't say much of anything because Base Goku traded blows with Bergamo and he was even stronger than Basil. Base Gohan traded blows with Lavender and then so did Super Saiyan Gohan.
There's no real point in writing off all the overwhelming evidence as "errors" at this point after the Krillin bullet scene definitively showed that, yes, a few years of not training in Toei's world really does cause you to lose 99.9999% of your power. Why Krillin and Gohan, yet nobody else?
Goku got scratched by a bullet too almost straight before fighting Bergamo and Buu though. Even that Sniper Rifle shot knocked Goku Black over.
That's meaningless though because we know that Beerus was only using a tiny, tiny percentage of his strength, so whether he chose to use 0.01% or 0.02% is totally arbitrary.
Holding back or not, he flicked Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the face and sent him spiralling. He punched Base Goku right in the face and he was back for more. Whis even said he was getting into it.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:24 am

Given the close proximity to End of Z timeline-wise with the DBS story so far, it feels really strange to think that Goku isn't as strong or stronger than Majin Buu given that he's gonna be taking on Majin Buu's reincarnation and barely breaking a sweat in base form in just 3 years time.

At the very least, putting him above Pure Buu seems like the best compromise to fit with End of Z and maintain a strong base form that's not overly strong god-level.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:22 am

Bullza wrote: Well that was generally true for himself and Gohan fighting the Androids to the death for a few years and they didn't become overwhelmingly powerful. To go from being weaker than Dabura as a Super Saiyan to stronger than Kid Buu in Base form in just a year seems kinda hard to swallow.

That's a Frieza style rate of growth.
Well Trunks did get over 50 times stronger in 3 years while fighting the Androids alone. He also matched the 3 year training of Goku and Vegeta for the Androids in 8 months. The kid has potential.

Zamasu was said to be a prodigy though with the potential to catch up to Beerus. Why can't the Kaioshin get big boost in training like the gang?

User avatar
AvatarReiko
Regular
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:46 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:38 am

What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:53 am

AvatarReiko wrote:What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?
Well, if Broly truly is stronger than a God of Destruction AND knowing that Vegito only potentially measures up to Beerus, a God of Destruction not all that different from his peers?

Yeah....... Gogeta would get the sh*t kicked outta him. He's an inferior fusion power-wise AND doesn't last as long; Gogeta would accomplish nothing if Broly's full-power really does measure up to and potentially beyond that of a God of Destruction.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:55 am

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:I also do agree, they should be stronger than Pure Boo at least.
Yeah at this point it would seem like they should be. Where the confusion comes from later is that Super Saiyan Trunks is weaker than Dabura and later he's shown as a Super Saiyan 2 he's shown to be roughly as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Zamasu is about as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Him being tens of times stronger than Kid Buu? A bit much.

I'd definitely think there was some sort of retcon but there's still a few things here and there that are questionable
I'm not really sure whether you guys are talking about the anime or the manga here, but in the anime the Base Saiyans dwarf Kid Buu and anything from Z for that matter, and I don't much care for the manga so I'll discuss things as it pertains to the anime.

During BoG, Goku's SSG "expires" and he is in his normal SSJ form. Beerus says that he made that power his own, and Goku says that he didn't get any weaker when he went back into SSJ from SSG. Therefore, SSJ Goku=SSG from a moment's prior. Goku got a huge power-up in this moment.

Then, following these events Chi-Chi has Goku farming for 6 months and he doesn't get much training in and must have been gaining minimal gains. Meanwhile, Vegeta trains with Whis for these 6 months and when Goku joins Vegeta on Beerus's planet following this 6 month period, Goku says that Vegeta's ki was totally unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, and says that Vegeta might even be stronger than him now. This shows that Goku must have retained his power-up against Beerus and that Vegeta got an equally large power-up if not slightly larger. This also means that Vegeta's SSJ must also be equal or even stronger than BoG SSG, since he may be stronger than Goku.

Then, they both train with Whis together until RoF happens and Freeza shows up on Earth. First Form Freeza dominates everybody very easily but is about even with Base Goku. If the difference from Namek remained the same where First Form->Final Form=530K->60M, then Freeza must be over a 100x stronger in his Final Form(non-buff) than his First form that he used to dominate everybody with. Therefore, Base Goku and Vegeta are over a hundred times stronger in their base than anybody else including SSJ Gotenks, SSJ Gohan and Piccolo. Then, Goku transforms into SSB and it is stated that Goku had surpassed SSG, and this implies that at any point in this fight prior to this he had not surpassed SSG. Therefore:

RoF SSJ Goku/Vegeta(hypothetical)>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual)~BoG SSG Goku>RoF Base Goku>Base Goku(post-ritual)

Fast forward a couple arcs until after the Universe 6 Arc. Goku fights Beerus in the Monaka suit and is strong enough to entertain Beerus and give him a fun fight. Whis stops the fight worrying about any further destruction to the Earth and/or the costume that Beerus was using to disguise himself. Then, Base Goku and Copy Vegeta(Who has exactly the power of Base Vegeta) are shown to be massively stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks during their time on Planet Potafu. This makes sense and corroborates with what was previously established in that SSJ Goku and Vegeta should have vastly surpassed BoG SSG by this time since they had more training with Whis, and 3 years in the ROSAT since their SSJ had become about equal to SSG. So given that SSJ=50x Base, their SSJ should be far more than 50x stronger than Buu arc characters by this point considering that their SSJ had vastly surpassed BoG SSG.

Later, we see that Buu is really impressed with Buu's training yielding enough power that his Base was able to keep up with his Base, even though Goku didn't appear to be very serious. This implies that without Buu's training he would not have been able to keep up with Goku's Base form.

As far as anything that would possibly contradict the idea that Base Goku/Vegeta dwarf Buu arc characters, I will address them here:

Goku vs Gohan ep 75

-They fought evenly in their respective Base forms and Gohan accuses Goku of holding back and he admits that he had been. Then, they both power-up into SSJ and continue to fight evenly, this implies that Goku must have continued to hold back like he did when he admitted to holding back in his Base against Base Gohan. So this is a casual sparring match that is mostly used as a gag scene because they destroy the farm land, and Goku admitted to holding back. Not much can be drawn here.

SSJ2 Future Trunks vs SSJ2 Goku.

-Yes, Future Trunks did struggle with Dabura so this scene would seem puzzling if Goku is as strong as he was previously portrayed to be. However, we haven't seen Future Trunks in 13 years and we don't know how long it has been since he fought Dabura. It is conceivable that he fought Dabura 3-5 years after the Cell-arc and the following 8-10 years he spent training and becoming stronger than what he was when he defeated Dabura. This is in addition to the time that he had been fighting Black constantly and being pushed to his limits and gaining several zenkais. Also, it is stated that hybrid Saiyans have more potential than pure-blooded ones so his gains make sense to some extent.

Therefore, it is very clear that Base Goku in DBS>>>>>>>>>Pure/Kid Buu. Very consistently described here from the time of late BoG to just prior to the ToP
RandomGuy96 wrote:And we later outright see Mr. Buu >>> Base Goku after an hour of training and no noted change in power. Not to mention Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
Actually we do have a noted change in power. Goku compliments Buu on his gain in power(or his speed, but everyone knows they correlate with each other), and Goku didn't even seem serious when Buu knocked him out of their little ring. We certainly do not see Mr.Buu>>>Base Goku at all, and this was a much stronger Mr. Buu as Goku noted.
Not to mention Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
This is factually incorrect. There was no "trading blows" whatsoever. Basil landed a grand total of 0 hits on SSJ Goku before being blasted away back to the edge where the final beam struggle happened.
Even ignoring the possibility that this is simple filler nonsense
Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks is entirely consistent with the previous events whether you want to call it filler not. It would be an inconsistency if Goku's Base was NOT stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks considering the abundance of evidence of the contrary.
That's meaningless though because we know that Beerus was only using a tiny, tiny percentage of his strength, so whether he chose to use 0.01% or 0.02% is totally arbitrary.
Well it isn't totally arbitrary because a clear distinction is made. Whis makes the distinction that Beerus is having fun and we can clearly see by his facial expressions that he is entertained. If he considers the fight entertaining and is having fun with who he considers a good opponent, he is obviously fighting more seriously. He was not entertained at all and thoroughly disappointed by the power of SSJ3 Goku, even flicking him across King Kai's planet. Since this immediately follows the Universe 6 arc, this clearly implies that:

Base Goku U6 Arc>>>>>SSJ3 Goku BoG arc
Gotenks is probably weaker than Captain Ginyu now. Piccolo was explicitly weaker than Zarbon and implicitly weaker than the Ginyus, while Gohan as a Super Saiyan was explicitly below 1.3 million.
Yeah none of this happened in the DBS anime. You are only referencing things from the movie which is entirely irrelevant to the DBS anime. There's no implication that Piccolo is weaker than Zarbon and no statement of Freeza reaching 1.3 million in his first form. There's no such "overwhelming evidence" considering that you have cited exactly 0 relevant examples of evidence as it pertains to the DBS anime.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Rebel Instinct wrote:snip
Where have you been? This is one of the best posts I have seen on Kanzenshuu nowadays. Good structure, references, connection etc. Just work on being more receptive about other people’s contributions.
I agree. Fantastic post.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:46 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:*snip*
Gonna echo the other sentiments here. Fantastic post as always, and I appreciate the sheer objectivity of your approach. I think you should contribute more often, honestly.

I'm going to start changing up my usual approach in this thread myself, just offering my opinion on where certain characters stand in relation to each other as new information is released. I'm still very much interested in Dragon Ball's power scaling, but my professional life doesn't leave me with enough time (or energy) to engage in extensive debates about this kind of stuff anymore. Being salaried is overrated, lemme tell ya.

Take care, everyone, and let's all do our part to make ourselves a more conducive community so the staff won't have to lock the thread every month.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:10 pm

Yeah, Rebel Instinct definitely listed the facts, however, there still is no definitive statement concerning the level of Gohan and Kefla.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
AvatarReiko
Regular
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:46 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:46 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?
Well, if Broly truly is stronger than a God of Destruction AND knowing that Vegito only potentially measures up to Beerus, a God of Destruction not all that different from his peers?

Yeah....... Gogeta would get the sh*t kicked outta him. He's an inferior fusion power-wise AND doesn't last as long; Gogeta would accomplish nothing if Broly's full-power really does measure up to and potentially beyond that of a God of Destruction.

Movie 12 Gogeta

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:16 pm

PFM18 wrote:So I'll discuss things as it pertains to the anime.
The explanation that you gave, there's nothing really wrong with it. It feels like that is how it should actually be in a way.

They very clearly said that Super Saiyan Goku had the same power as Super Saiyan God Goku. By the time Goku went to Beerus' Planet because he was about as strong as Vegeta after all his training, he would be stronger than he was at the start of the series and at least at the time you would think that was because of the God power.

But there would appear to be a few question marks about all this. When Goku became a Super Saiyan Blue. King Kai and Goku said that he had learned how to become a Super Saiyan God on his own.

So he must have lost access to that power aftet the fight with Beerus if he had to learn how to bring it out again without the ritual.

If Super Saiyan Goku had the power of a Super Saiyan God following the fight with Beerus then how does Super Saiyan God coming back in the Universe Survival Saga fit into that? According to that, even as a Super Saiyan 3 he wasn't as strong as a Super Saiyan God.

When Goku fought Bergamo he used Super Saiyan bit only upon becoming a Super Saiyan Blue that they said he had power rivalling the Gods.

So I always assumed that yes he was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan when he fought Beerus because they said the power was still burning inside him like a flame but then after that battle that never happened again once Goku learned how to properly become a Super Saiyan God by himself.

But if that were the case then why would Goku be as strong as Vegeta when he got to Beerus'Planet? Unless it's down to that huge power up he received from the Saiyans before becoming a God.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8813
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:22 pm

Bullza wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:And you ignored the part about Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
Well that doesn't say much of anything because Base Goku traded blows with Bergamo and he was even stronger than Basil. Base Gohan traded blows with Lavender and then so did Super Saiyan Gohan.
It says a lot actually. It says that Basil isn't completely irrelevant. It says that an errant counter didn't wipe him out. It says that if he were to punch Goku right in the face, he couldn't just sit there and ignore it.
Goku got scratched by a bullet too almost straight before fighting Bergamo and Buu though. Even that Sniper Rifle shot knocked Goku Black over.
In Goku's case, he was noted to have been off guard.

In Krillin's case, he was explicitly noted to have gotten weaker.

Not remotely comparable.
olding back or not, he flicked Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the face and sent him spiralling. He punched Base Goku right in the face and he was back for more. Whis even said he was getting into it.
Which, again, means nothing, because he was using less than 1% of his power in both cases. If he was fighting remotely seriously, even SSB Goku wouldn't last a nanosecond. You're assuming that he used the exact same arbitrary percentage against Goku then as he did a year ago when there's literally zero evidence for that.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:43 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?
Well, if Broly truly is stronger than a God of Destruction AND knowing that Vegito only potentially measures up to Beerus, a God of Destruction not all that different from his peers?

Yeah....... Gogeta would get the sh*t kicked outta him. He's an inferior fusion power-wise AND doesn't last as long; Gogeta would accomplish nothing if Broly's full-power really does measure up to and potentially beyond that of a God of Destruction.

Movie 12 Gogeta
Well, then it's even more of a stomp unless we're also talking about original movie Broly. In which case Gogeta beats him so hard it's not even funny.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:28 pm

Bullza wrote:But there would appear to be a few question marks about all this. When Goku became a Super Saiyan Blue. King Kai and Goku said that he had learned how to become a Super Saiyan God on his own.
That isn't a question mark. Goku retained the level of power he had as a SSG as a SSJ. There's literally nothing else to it than that, he made the power itself his own, not the form. This is entirely independent of actually becoming a SSG. This does not inhibit him from being a SSG adn it shouldn't have surprised anybody that he could go SSG in the ToP because the form itself is something entirely different and is a reflection of using God Ki. What King Kai said makes sense and still corroborates with what transpired in episodes 13 and 14.
So he must have lost access to that power aftet the fight with Beerus if he had to learn how to bring it out again without the ritual.
No, not at all. He didn't lose access to the power he just attained SSG. That doesn't mean he didn't retain the power-up. Him not retaining the power up is impossible because of what happened on Beerus's planet. Vegeta's ki was completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, and Goku had done nothing in the previous 6 months, so he couldn't have possibly gained an equivalent power-up as Vegeta from training. He MUST have attained his equivalent power-up from the power he retained the power he gained from SSG as a SSJ. Vegeta didn't go through a ritual or anything of the sort and he was as strong or stronger, and yet his forms function the same way. Therefore, the way Goku's forms must not have changed in their function in any way and he shouldn't in any way be inhibited from using SSG and SSB in the future.
When Goku fought Bergamo he used Super Saiyan bit only upon becoming a Super Saiyan Blue that they said he had power rivalling the Gods.
That doesn't really mean much. It is just a specific verbatim that was used and by the standards that were established now, BoG SSG wouldn't be rivaling the gods either. Whis had said during their training they are not even close to the GoDs.
But if that were the case then why would Goku be as strong as Vegeta when he got to Beerus'Planet?
Well, exactly. that is how we know for 100% certainty that he must have retained the power-up he gained from being a SSG. This was established and never contradicted. Thus, Goku NOT being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks would have been a huge inconsistency. Him being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base and being able to entertain Beerus with his power is just staying consistent with what was established previously.

Post Reply