ZombieVito wrote:I also do agree, they should be stronger than Pure Boo at least.
Yeah at this point it would seem like they should be. Where the confusion comes from later is that Super Saiyan Trunks is weaker than Dabura and later he's shown as a Super Saiyan 2 he's shown to be roughly as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku.
Zamasu is about as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Him being tens of times stronger than Kid Buu? A bit much.
I'd definitely think there was some sort of retcon but there's still a few things here and there that are questionable
I'm not really sure whether you guys are talking about the anime or the manga here, but in the anime the Base Saiyans dwarf Kid Buu and anything from Z for that matter, and I don't much care for the manga so I'll discuss things as it pertains to the anime.
During BoG, Goku's SSG "expires" and he is in his normal SSJ form. Beerus says that he made that power his own, and Goku says that he didn't get any weaker when he went back into SSJ from SSG. Therefore, SSJ Goku=SSG from a moment's prior. Goku got a huge power-up in this moment.
Then, following these events Chi-Chi has Goku farming for 6 months and he doesn't get much training in and must have been gaining minimal gains. Meanwhile, Vegeta trains with Whis for these 6 months and when Goku joins Vegeta on Beerus's planet following this 6 month period, Goku says that Vegeta's ki was totally unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, and says that Vegeta might even be stronger than him now. This shows that Goku must have retained his power-up against Beerus and that Vegeta got an equally large power-up if not slightly larger. This also means that Vegeta's SSJ must also be equal or even stronger than BoG SSG, since he may be stronger than Goku.
Then, they both train with Whis together until RoF happens and Freeza shows up on Earth. First Form Freeza dominates everybody very easily but is about even with Base Goku. If the difference from Namek remained the same where First Form->Final Form=530K->60M, then Freeza must be over a 100x stronger in his Final Form(non-buff) than his First form that he used to dominate everybody with. Therefore, Base Goku and Vegeta are over a hundred times stronger in their base than anybody else including SSJ Gotenks, SSJ Gohan and Piccolo. Then, Goku transforms into SSB and it is stated that Goku had surpassed SSG, and this implies that at any point in this fight prior to this he had not surpassed SSG. Therefore:
RoF SSJ Goku/Vegeta(hypothetical)>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual)~BoG SSG Goku>RoF Base Goku>Base Goku(post-ritual)
Fast forward a couple arcs until after the Universe 6 Arc. Goku fights Beerus in the Monaka suit and is strong enough to entertain Beerus and give him a fun fight. Whis stops the fight worrying about any further destruction to the Earth and/or the costume that Beerus was using to disguise himself. Then, Base Goku and Copy Vegeta(Who has exactly the power of Base Vegeta) are shown to be massively stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks during their time on Planet Potafu. This makes sense and corroborates with what was previously established in that SSJ Goku and Vegeta should have vastly surpassed BoG SSG by this time since they had more training with Whis, and 3 years in the ROSAT since their SSJ had become about equal to SSG. So given that SSJ=50x Base, their SSJ should be far more than 50x stronger than Buu arc characters by this point considering that their SSJ had vastly surpassed BoG SSG.
Later, we see that Buu is really impressed with Buu's training yielding enough power that his Base was able to keep up with his Base, even though Goku didn't appear to be very serious. This implies that without Buu's training he would not have been able to keep up with Goku's Base form.
As far as anything that would possibly contradict the idea that Base Goku/Vegeta dwarf Buu arc characters, I will address them here:
Goku vs Gohan ep 75
-They fought evenly in their respective Base forms and Gohan accuses Goku of holding back and he admits that he had been. Then, they both power-up into SSJ and continue to fight evenly, this implies that Goku must have continued to hold back like he did when he admitted to holding back in his Base against Base Gohan. So this is a casual sparring match that is mostly used as a gag scene because they destroy the farm land, and Goku admitted to holding back. Not much can be drawn here.
SSJ2 Future Trunks vs SSJ2 Goku.
-Yes, Future Trunks did struggle with Dabura so this scene would seem puzzling if Goku is as strong as he was previously portrayed to be. However, we haven't seen Future Trunks in 13 years and we don't know how long it has been since he fought Dabura. It is conceivable that he fought Dabura 3-5 years after the Cell-arc and the following 8-10 years he spent training and becoming stronger than what he was when he defeated Dabura. This is in addition to the time that he had been fighting Black constantly and being pushed to his limits and gaining several zenkais. Also, it is stated that hybrid Saiyans have more potential than pure-blooded ones so his gains make sense to some extent.
Therefore, it is very clear that Base Goku in DBS>>>>>>>>>Pure/Kid Buu. Very consistently described here from the time of late BoG to just prior to the ToP
RandomGuy96 wrote:And we later outright see Mr. Buu >>> Base Goku after an hour of training and no noted change in power. Not to mention Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
Actually we do have a noted change in power. Goku compliments Buu on his gain in power(or his speed, but everyone knows they correlate with each other), and Goku didn't even seem serious when Buu knocked him out of their little ring. We certainly do not see Mr.Buu>>>Base Goku at all, and this was a much stronger Mr. Buu as Goku noted.
Not to mention Basil trading blows with SS Goku.
This is factually incorrect. There was no "trading blows" whatsoever. Basil landed a grand total of 0 hits on SSJ Goku before being blasted away back to the edge where the final beam struggle happened.
Even ignoring the possibility that this is simple filler nonsense
Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks is entirely consistent with the previous events whether you want to call it filler not. It would be an inconsistency if Goku's Base was NOT stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks considering the abundance of evidence of the contrary.
That's meaningless though because we know that Beerus was only using a tiny, tiny percentage of his strength, so whether he chose to use 0.01% or 0.02% is totally arbitrary.
Well it isn't totally arbitrary because a clear distinction is made. Whis makes the distinction that Beerus is having fun and we can clearly see by his facial expressions that he is entertained. If he considers the fight entertaining and is having fun with who he considers a good opponent, he is obviously fighting more seriously. He was not entertained at all and thoroughly disappointed by the power of SSJ3 Goku, even flicking him across King Kai's planet. Since this immediately follows the Universe 6 arc, this clearly implies that:
Base Goku U6 Arc>>>>>SSJ3 Goku BoG arc
Gotenks is probably weaker than Captain Ginyu now. Piccolo was explicitly weaker than Zarbon and implicitly weaker than the Ginyus, while Gohan as a Super Saiyan was explicitly below 1.3 million.
Yeah none of this happened in the DBS anime. You are only referencing things from the movie which is entirely irrelevant to the DBS anime. There's no implication that Piccolo is weaker than Zarbon and no statement of Freeza reaching 1.3 million in his first form. There's no such "overwhelming evidence" considering that you have cited exactly 0 relevant examples of evidence as it pertains to the DBS anime.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Rebel Instinct wrote:snip
Where have you been? This is one of the best posts I have seen on Kanzenshuu nowadays. Good structure, references, connection etc. Just work on being more receptive about other people’s contributions.
I agree. Fantastic post.