Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:45 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:How big would you guys make the SSG multiplier? Using Vegetto as a starting point (we don't really have any other way), I've come up with this.

Daizenshu 7 says that Vegetto's Base form power is superior to a Super Saiyan 3, it doesn't specify if it means Goku or Gotenks but I take this to mean the accumulated multiplier of power between Goku & Vegeta fusing resulted in a boost above that of an SS3 which is x400 Base. Since I tend to lowball gains and such, I'll just say that Base Vegetto is x500 stronger than Base Goku or Base Vegeta. Using existing this along with existing multipliers, we get the following:

1 - Base Goku
50 - SS1 Goku
100 - SS2 Goku
400 - SS3 Goku

500 - Base Vegetto
25,000 - SS1 Vegetto
50,000 - SS2 Vegetto
200,000 - SS3 Vegetto

With the well-known "fusion won't work!" statement from Goku when talking about beating Beerus, SSGod has to make Goku above x200,000 Base power to put him above SS3 Vegetto. In the Super manga, Goku says he feels like a whole new world was opened up to him but this is a very vague statement which doesn't help us solidify anything. In the anime, he says he never thought a power like this was attainable which can mean one of two things 1) SSGod is absurdly above SS3 Vegetto which is entirely possible or 2) Goku never thought he could reach a level of power like this without fusion or some other trickery. Either one is valid but since I'm already a lowballer, I'll go with the second meaning.

Taking all of this into account, my personal stance for SSGods multiplier is it being exactly x1 million Base power, about 5 times stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto using these numbers.
Myself and @shadowfox87 have discussed SSG frequently in detail. He originally said 400K times Base and then he had it at 5 million and now he has it at 60 billion.

Personally, I use a similar methodology to you when I calculate it.

The way I see it is the manga didn't give us an indication of where Base Vegetto stands compared to Buuhan, so I just use the anime's version of the events in which Base Vegetto>Buuhann. Of course, the anime isn't canon and shouldn't be considered over the manga but the manga doesn't give me much to go off of here. Therefore, I have Base Vegetto=25x SSJ3 Goku=10,000x Base Goku(after taking into account where Buuhan is compared to SSJ3 Goku)

SSJ Vegetto=10,000x *50 Base Goku=500,000x Base Goku
SSJ3 Vegetto=500,000x Base Goku*8=4,000,000x Base Goku

And since a 2x advantage is treated as very large(a 30% advantage is enough to dominate your opponent) then I assume it is a 2x gap because anything further is more speculative than objective. We can assume for certain that SSG Goku is atleast twice SSJ3 Vegetto and so I have him the multiplier as 8 million times Base.

Edit: Crap he already posted it in here. my internet was down and I posted it when I could but he had already responded lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:54 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:How big would you guys make the SSG multiplier? Using Vegetto as a starting point (we don't really have any other way), I've come up with this.

Daizenshu 7 says that Vegetto's Base form power is superior to a Super Saiyan 3, it doesn't specify if it means Goku or Gotenks but I take this to mean the accumulated multiplier of power between Goku & Vegeta fusing resulted in a boost above that of an SS3 which is x400 Base. Since I tend to lowball gains and such, I'll just say that Base Vegetto is x500 stronger than Base Goku or Base Vegeta. Using existing this along with existing multipliers, we get the following:

1 - Base Goku
50 - SS1 Goku
100 - SS2 Goku
400 - SS3 Goku

500 - Base Vegetto
25,000 - SS1 Vegetto
50,000 - SS2 Vegetto
200,000 - SS3 Vegetto

With the well-known "fusion won't work!" statement from Goku when talking about beating Beerus, SSGod has to make Goku above x200,000 Base power to put him above SS3 Vegetto. In the Super manga, Goku says he feels like a whole new world was opened up to him but this is a very vague statement which doesn't help us solidify anything. In the anime, he says he never thought a power like this was attainable which can mean one of two things 1) SSGod is absurdly above SS3 Vegetto which is entirely possible or 2) Goku never thought he could reach a level of power like this without fusion or some other trickery. Either one is valid but since I'm already a lowballer, I'll go with the second meaning.

Taking all of this into account, my personal stance for SSGods multiplier is it being exactly x1 million Base power, about 5 times stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto using these numbers.
Myself and @shadowfox87 have discussed SSG frequently in detail. He originally said 400K times Base and then he had it at 5 million and now he has it at 60 billion.

Personally, I use a similar methodology to you when I calculate it.

The way I see it is the manga didn't give us an indication of where Base Vegetto stands compared to Buuhan, so I just use the anime's version of the events in which Base Vegetto>Buuhann. Of course, the anime isn't canon and shouldn't be considered over the manga but the manga doesn't give me much to go off of here. Therefore, I have Base Vegetto=25x SSJ3 Goku=10,000x Base Goku(after taking into account where Buuhan is compared to SSJ3 Goku)

SSJ Vegetto=10,000x *50 Base Goku=500,000x Base Goku
SSJ3 Vegetto=500,000x Base Goku*8=4,000,000x Base Goku

And since a 2x advantage is treated as very large(a 30% advantage is enough to dominate your opponent) then I assume it is a 2x gap because anything further is more speculative than objective. We can assume for certain that SSG Goku is atleast twice SSJ3 Vegetto and so I have him the multiplier as 8 million times Base.

Edit: Crap he already posted it in here. my internet was down and I posted it when I could but he had already responded lol
I ignore the anime's thing with Vegetto since its just filler. The El Manga Legendario apparently says Base Vegetto is above a hypothetical Gokhan but I'm more comfortable with using the vague designation that he's just above SS3 in terms of a strength increase. I have Gotenks at SS3 about 10 times above SS3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan at around 12 times stronger, meaning Vegetto would need less than half his SS power to beat the shit out of Boohan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:57 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Is Potential Unleashed the most broken state that a saiyan could have when it comes to just raw power ?
Nah, that'd be the god forms for sure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:40 pm

Bullza wrote: Bergamo was on par with Base Goku so he should be stronger than Buuhan but then his brother Basil wasn't even as strong as Good Buu even powered up with the drug.
The counterpoint to that is probably something like "Bergamo is just vastly stronger than Basil", although that honestly sounds like a convenient handwave to me.

The bigger clincher is the fact that all three brothers were explicitly said to be the strongest in their universe, yet their weaker teammates were able to give base Goku/Vegeta a much harder time than Gotenks could (even individually, such as the case with Hop). Yet Basil is weaker than Buu. Add in all the other things we've discussed over the course of the Tournament of Power and I still think a retcon is a perfectly reasonable assumption. Most attempts to "explain away" the evidence seem either arbitrary or a bit convoluted.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:54 pm

I hope Beerus gets killed by Broly so we can finally definitively say he's been surpassed with no room for doubt.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:59 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I hope Beerus gets killed by Broly so we can finally definitively say he's been surpassed with no room for doubt.
There’s no way he’s dying but I hope we get a definite statement that he has been surpassed. Toei put in a bunch of lines that alluded to it but no explicit confirmation unfortunately

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:16 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Well the way I explain this is that Tagoma simply wasn't at full power when Gohan said that.
Well he wasn't. It was only after Ginyu took him over that he brought out his full power. So Tagoma as Tagoma was supposedly as strong as Base Gohan. Then they were surprised when he powered up more as Ginyu.

Again though both the Crunchyroll and Funimation subs say "He's probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Maybe Herms interpretation was wrong. Not sure what else it'd be referring to because Tagoma wasn't as strong as Ultimate Gohan...but maybe Tagoma being as strong as Base Gohan was just wrong.

It might be easier to write off that one comment where he said "probably" anyway and accept that it goes Tagoma > Piccolo > Base Gohan rather than take the line as fact and then come up with all these theories like Piccolo was nerfed or Gohan has some of his Ultimate Power in order to make sense of it.
When Gotenks arrives, he wants to fight Freeza but they tell him he's no opponent for him and before he can do anything he defuses.
I doubled checked and it's Bulma who says that and she wouldn't really know any better. Plus she says "these enemies" which would also include Tagoma who they downed for laughs.
When exactly in Z does SS Gotenks is said to be stronger than Boo by te way? Daizenshuu says he is weaker than Vegeta before the RoSaT and he only trained there for a week.
Well Goku was confident enough that he'd beat him and he wasn't taking Super Saiyan 3 into account because he was really surprised when he saw it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:33 pm

Yeah there is no way ssj gotenks was weaker than majin vegeta at any point. You can argue base gotenks < majin vegeta easily but not ssj gotenks and thats before ROSAT

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:33 pm

Bullza wrote: I doubled checked and it's Bulma who says that and she wouldn't really know any better. Plus she says "these enemies" which would also include Tagoma who they downed for laughs.

Well Goku was confident enough that he'd beat him and he wasn't taking Super Saiyan 3 into account because he was really surprised when he saw it.
Well this is the same situation as when Freeza comments about Boo. Bulma wouldn't know but no one corrected her.

I thought I missed something that confirmed it then.

I'm just going to go with what Daizenshuu says. Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT training and what exactly did he gained in that training? Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 so he is stronger than Vegeta with those forms only.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:28 am

ekrolo2 wrote:How big would you guys make the SSG multiplier?
It's probably been severely overrated. I suspected this when Vegeta was able to catch up to Goku. And now I've had it fully confirmed by Gohan surpassing SSB with about a year in the gravity chamber. That'll yield good returns, sure, especially someone with his potential, but thousands of times stronger? Yeah I don't think so. And since it was in both the anime and manga, Ultimate Gohan getting to that tier was almost certainly in the outline. The anime doesn't even bother with an excuse for the boost and just treats his Ultimate form as bringing back his old Z power, yet he's still close enough to SSB tier to do something.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Goku got a temporary Toei Team Power Up before transforming in the vein of his fight with Broly. Specifically, during that sequence where he got way stronger just by everyone gifting energy, but didn't yet transform. This would fit well with the universe being threatened by his fight with Beerus in the anime, followed by nothing even remotely in that range ever happening again with anyone not named Beerus or Champa. The closest being manga Fused Zamasu saying he could destroy the galaxy at full power. There's also SS Goku outperforming "less than 10%" (but apparently more than 1% or else they'd just say that) SSB Vegeta against hit. You can argue it's an outlier or a case of toying, and I might even agree, but it's still a scene where the wanktastic "×1,000,000" multipliers being thrown around look pretty silly.

Combine all that with base Vegetto > SSG Goku being shown in the manga, and I'm guessing the multiplier is... enough to bring Goku up to Buu's absorbed forms? Maybe? Less if we consider that BOG Gohan was supposed to just be a SS and, going by Resurrection F, is probably a shadow of his Buu arc self either way.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:27 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Yeah there is no way ssj gotenks was weaker than majin vegeta at any point. You can argue base gotenks < majin vegeta easily but not ssj gotenks and thats before ROSAT
Why? Ssj Gotenks never did anything but lose to Super Buu. I agree ssj Gotenks is above majin Vegeta, but the Daizenshuu implies he only surpassed him after the ROSAT, and nothing really out right contradicts that. But I wouldn't be surprised if pre ROSAT ssj Goteks was stronger than majin Vegeta either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:36 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:I hope Beerus gets killed by Broly so we can finally definitively say he's been surpassed with no room for doubt.
lololol

Do you really think Beerus will be surpassed by anybody since Goku and Vegeta has yet to surpass him until their final prophetic dream showdown?

Just give up on Beerus being weaker for now, wait till the end.

:lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:27 am

Which of these power scaling excuses/justifications is the worst? Rank them

- X is holding back/suppressed
- X is a prodigy
- X can compete with Y because X is skilled and experienced

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:41 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:I hope Beerus gets killed by Broly so we can finally definitively say he's been surpassed with no room for doubt.
There’s no way he’s dying but I hope we get a definite statement that he has been surpassed. Toei put in a bunch of lines that alluded to it but no explicit confirmation unfortunately
He is in no way dying but he should detinitely fight broly to hype him up more. Apperantly its going to take gogeta to potentially stop broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:43 am

Bitamo sends damage to another dimension, right? Or has that been retconed.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:29 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Bitamo sends damage to another dimension, right? Or has that been retconed.
It hasn't been retconned as far as I know. The cast just found a loophole around it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:32 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Bitamo sends damage to another dimension, right? Or has that been retconed.
Nah, that's still a thing. We see in his fights with Gohan and SS Vegeta that he still does negate any damage that could hurt him.

However, it seems that, as of the Tournament of Power, his powers have been "tweaked" in a manner of speaking so that his body doesn't just absorb damage and stop his opponents' momentum; that's how Gohan eliminated Botamo in the anime, by simply punching him enough to lift him up into the air so that he can't fight back and stay on the ground.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:22 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:How big would you guys make the SSG multiplier?
It's probably been severely overrated. I suspected this when Vegeta was able to catch up to Goku. And now I've had it fully confirmed by Gohan surpassing SSB with about a year in the gravity chamber. That'll yield good returns, sure, especially someone with his potential, but thousands of times stronger? Yeah I don't think so. And since it was in both the anime and manga, Ultimate Gohan getting to that tier was almost certainly in the outline. The anime doesn't even bother with an excuse for the boost and just treats his Ultimate form as bringing back his old Z power, yet he's still close enough to SSB tier to do something.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Goku got a temporary Toei Team Power Up before transforming in the vein of his fight with Broly. Specifically, during that sequence where he got way stronger just by everyone gifting energy, but didn't yet transform. This would fit well with the universe being threatened by his fight with Beerus in the anime, followed by nothing even remotely in that range ever happening again with anyone not named Beerus or Champa. The closest being manga Fused Zamasu saying he could destroy the galaxy at full power. There's also SS Goku outperforming "less than 10%" (but apparently more than 1% or else they'd just say that) SSB Vegeta against hit. You can argue it's an outlier or a case of toying, and I might even agree, but it's still a scene where the wanktastic "×1,000,000" multipliers being thrown around look pretty silly.

Combine all that with base Vegetto > SSG Goku being shown in the manga, and I'm guessing the multiplier is... enough to bring Goku up to Buu's absorbed forms? Maybe? Less if we consider that BOG Gohan was supposed to just be a SS and, going by Resurrection F, is probably a shadow of his Buu arc self either way.
I tend to ignore the SS thing potentially being above less than 10% of Blue since Whis later says Goku only ever got stronger than Hit when he used SSGod and Beerus needs Whis to explain it to him, meaning he doesn't know what he's talking about in this instance. Still, there is a pretty sizable amount of evidence which you've pointed that implies SSGod is probably closer to a hypothetical SS4 multiplier (around 40,000-ish which would be enough to put him above a full power Super Vegetto and every Majin Boo form we see).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:58 am

AvatarReiko wrote:Which of these power scaling excuses/justifications is the worst? Rank them

- X is holding back/suppressed
- X is a prodigy
- X can compete with Y because X is skilled and experienced
All three of these are equally bad if they're presupposed for an instance without any statement in the show to confirm them. At that point, it's less about internal consistency and more about post-hoc rationalizations to ease the viewer's mind.

If they're specifically indicated, on the other hand, that's fine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:22 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:Which of these power scaling excuses/justifications is the worst? Rank them

- X is holding back/suppressed
- X is a prodigy
- X can compete with Y because X is skilled and experienced
All three of these are equally bad if they're presupposed for an instance without any statement in the show to confirm them. At that point, it's less about internal consistency and more about post-hoc rationalizations to ease the viewer's mind.

If they're specifically indicated, on the other hand, that's fine.
Agreed, none of these are inherently good or bad, its how you make use of them. Freeza being a prodigy who never trained and does so to power himself up is perfectly a valid thing that makes sense in the series for example. Why it doesn't work boils down to him doing nothing of description (manga & movie) or using someone as a living dart board for four months (the anime) to rival post-BoG Goku & Vegeta.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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