Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

CSSB Goku = 10

Gohan = Kefla = 9

Something like that. I mean, the whole narrative point was pre-battle hype. If Kefla is impressive enough to have Vados wonder if she might be unmatched, it already establishes her as one of the best participants to compete in the tournament. That's also why the cliffhanger makes such a big deal out of Gohan vs. Kefla; they're likely in the same tier as Goku.

Shame the actual fight was on the rushed side of things. Now there's a valid issue.

I used to think Kefla and Gohan were >>> Goku, but i'm in line with this reasoning (And the numbers) and agree with this. It was merely a hype for the merged girls.

[ankokudaishogun]

Why is this Broly expy called the "evil Saiyan"?

Probably a reference to the "evil saiyans" the OG Super Saiyan God fought.
This is reinforced by him reacting strongly to Goku's God form in the manga(not canon but unless directly contradicted useful for such things)

Aren't Saiyans supposed to be evil to begin with?

No, just ducks with a i, not evil.

[PFM18]

CSSB Goku = 10

Gohan = Kefla = 9

Something like that. I mean, the whole narrative point was pre-battle hype. If Kefla is impressive enough to have Vados wonder if she might be unmatched, it already establishes her as one of the best participants to compete in the tournament. That's also why the cliffhanger makes such a big deal out of Gohan vs. Kefla; they're likely in the same tier as Goku.

Shame the actual fight was on the rushed side of things. Now there's a valid issue.

I used to think Kefla and Gohan were >>> Goku, but i'm in line with this reasoning (And the numbers) and agree with this. It was merely a hype for the merged girls.

The whole thing makes no sense but Krillin's statement was more explicit so it wins out and it must be that Goku>Gohan/Kefla

[Rebel Instinct]

There still seems to be confusion over where Goku, Gohan and Kefla stand compared to each other and why. I feel like the manga makes it fairly apparent how these characters stack up, but I''m going to throw some relative comparisons at everyone anyway. Some people apparently like my posts?

If anyone gives a damn, go back to page 1305 of this thread and read a post of mine that outlines where Gohan and Kefla stand compared to one another and why their fight was even possible, using only explicit statements and information taken straight from the manga. It'll help anyone who cares to understand where I'm pulling most of my references from.

To start off, we have to know where Kefla stands. Throughout her entire appearance in the manga, Kefla is not fighting at full power. The post I made on page 1305 explains this in full detail, but I will paraphrase it here. According to events in the Future Trunks arc involving a similar scenario with Goku, Vegeta and Vegito, we know that the physical states of the two members of a Potara fusion affect the power of the resultant fused warrior. Caulifla was beaten and exhausted from fighting Golden Frieza and Kale had burned up nearly all of her power before fusing into Kefla. Afterwards, Kefla was not allowed to recover her strength, nor was she healed by anyone or anything. Thus, Kefla was not at full power. If Caulifla and Kale were fully rested and at full power prior to fusing, Kefla would've likely been the second most powerful fighter in the entire tournament - second only to Jiren. Gohan wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell.

This is where the relative comparisons come in. They are not exact and the comparisons will be rough because we don't have precise enough factual information regarding specific character strength in Super to know with 100%, foolproof certainty. At best, these will be conservative estimations based on what we know. This will not be popular...

Based on what we know, Caulifla is very comparable to Cabba in her base and Super Saiyan forms. There's a little wiggle room, but not enough to make much of difference going forward. This means that if Vegeta's statements regarding Cabba during the Tournament of Destroyers is still accurate, Caulifla is roughly as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their base and Super Saiyan forms. During the Tournament of Power, Caulifla is handily beaten by Golden Frieza. Caulifla should not be not at her full strength after this fight. At bare minimum, she is injured and tired. It's uncertain by how much, but this should put her somewhere slightly below current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan Goku in strength prior to fusing with Kale.

Kale on the other hand, was potentially stronger than even Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku at her absolute peak. We don't actually know for certain how strong Super Saiyan Kale is at full strength. We never get to see her fight Completed SSB Goku after she powers up in chapter 37 and no definitive statements are made by anyone. Whether or not peak Kale is stronger than peak Goku is unknown. Even if she were stronger than Completed SSB Goku at her maximum power, it doesn't actually matter. Kale doesn't carry that maximum power on into Kefla. Kale instead burns out nearly all of that power eliminating the other universes. By the time she fights the Pride Troopers, Vegeta explicitly stated that she is losing power and is nearing her limit. He sees no reason to even bother interfering at this point.

The aforementioned point is important, but this next part is crucial.

The Pride Troopers are able to "defeat" Kale on their own. Earlier in the tournament, Goku was easily handling all of the same Pride Troopers that defeated Kale - by himself as a regular Super Saiyan. This allows us to roughly gauge where Kale's power stands at this point. There is a stipulation made here by Vegeta that part of the reason the Pride Troopers can handle Kale is because her berserk movements are simple and easy to predict. This implies that if Kale were more in control of herself, the Pride Troopers may have a harder time dealing with her power. From this information, we can gather that in her current state, Kale is likely still stronger than Super Saiyan Goku by a decent margin and the difference in their performance against the Pride Troopers being Goku's martial prowess and calm mind. That said, Kale still has to be somewhere in the same ballpark as Super Saiyan Goku or the Pride Troopers wouldn't be able to compete with her. A conservative estimate would put Kale's current reduced power roughly around Super Saiyan 2 Goku - give or take. Any higher and the Pride Troopers would likely be overwhelmed. Again, this is a conservative estimate. Kale could be a little weaker, or she could be a little stronger. It's literally impossible to know for sure. She can't be massively stronger, otherwise the Pride Troopers wouldn't be able to keep up. She would've simply flattened them like the other universes' fighters.

With Super Saiyan Caulifla being slightly weaker than Super Saiyan Goku thanks to her fight with Golden Frieza, and Kale having lost so much power eliminating other universes that the Pride Troopers can defeat her with only minor difficulty, where would this put Kefla's level of power when these two fuse?

Caulifla is a little weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and Kale is marginally stronger than Super Saiyan Goku (rough estimate). By all known accounts, current (Tournament of Power) Goku and Vegeta are equals in their base and Super Saiyan states. Based on this information, the Kefla that we see in the manga is likely only marginally stronger than a hypothetical current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan Vegito.

If you're still with me on this ( ), let's break this down even further.

Let's be frank here. If Kefla were formed by Super Saiyan Caulifla and Kale at peak power, they would likely utterly stomp Completed SSB Goku. However, thanks to the information gleaned from the Future Trunks arc, we know that Kefla is not at her full potential when she appears in the Tournament of Power. If estimations are accurate, Super Saiyan Kefla should only be somewhat stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. The reason being, Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are equals, exhausted Super Saiyan Caulifla is slightly weaker than both of them and weakened Super Saiyan Kale is somewhat stronger than both of them. With the two of them together, Kale's extra power should make up the difference for Caulifla's exhaustion with a little extra power left over to boot. This indicates that, all other things being equal, this weakened Super Saiyan Kefla should only be a little stronger than a fresh Super Saiyan Vegito.

Now, thanks to Battle of Gods, we know that Super Saiyan God Goku alone is more powerful than the then-current fusion of Goku and Vegeta. At the time, the only benchmark for fusion between Goku and Vegeta was a non-God Super Saiyan Vegito (potentially higher if we assume Goku bothered to factor in Super Saiyan 3). Since the relative difference in power between current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan God Goku and a hypothetical current (Tournament of Power) Vegito would remain the same between now and Battle of Gods (their growth being contingent on one another), current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan God Goku would still be stronger than a non-God form Vegito. That being the case, the weakened Kefla we saw in the manga's version of the Tournament of Power (and by extension Ultimate Gohan) should actually be weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku.

That's a lot to take in, so let me nutshell it.

A fresh, full power Kefla would likely be able to trounce Completed SSB Goku, but thanks to the exhausted states of Caulifla and Kale prior to fusing, the Kelfa that was formed was actually within the realm of Super Saiyan Vegito and thus, weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku.

In a way, this is almost exactly the same thing that happened to Vegeta during the Tournament of Destroyers. Vegeta burned off so much power with his first transformation into Super Saiyan Blue that he was only around 10% of his maximum power against Hit and was annihilated. Super Saiyan God Goku then went on to outperform Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue despite being in an inferior form.

It's wild, I know. However, the information provided by statements and feats in the manga corroborate what happened. You just have to put all the pieces together. That's how we get Kefla that should, by all accounts, curb stomp Completed SSB Goku fighting to a draw against Ultimate Gohan.

In conclusion:
Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan = (weakened) Super Saiyan Kefla
(full strength) Super Saiyan Kefla > Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan

Based on everything we know and a couple conservative estimates (only because we have no solid statements otherwise), the manga's notion of Gohan being weaker than Goku, yet still capable of tying with Kefla works out just fine. To Gohan's credit, growing to be somewhat stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito from training in the gravity room is impressive. Fresh Full Potential Gohan back in the Buu arc outstripped Gotenks's Metamoran fusion, so beating out Potara fusion with some intense training is actually entirely within the realm of possibility for him - considering the circumstances. We never got to see what would happen if Gohan were to continue training on top of having his potential drawn out by Elder Kai back in Z. I guess this is the result.

Also:

The whole thing makes no sense but Krillin's statement was more explicit so it wins out and it must be that Goku>Gohan/Kefla

You seem to be getting hung up on Vados's statement that Kefla "may be unmatched on this battlefield" (ch. 38, pg. 41) being a definitive statement. Bear in mind that Vados was speculating when she said this and that it was said with Jiren still standing on the field. Unless you consider the idea that Kefla could be stronger than Jiren as a possibility, it's best to take Vados's speculation with a grain of salt.

---

Now, in keeping with my attitude towards engaging with this community, I'll probably not be taking part in any further discussion. I would rather let others consider it for themselves and argue the merits of this information amongst one another, call it "delusional fanboy nonsense" or ignore it all completely. Frankly, I don't care which. I'm not really here to try to change unwilling minds or argue with anyone about anything anymore - I've had more than enough of that for several lifetimes. I'm just putting the info out there for anyone who might give a shit,

[prince212]

[spoiler]There still seems to be confusion over where Goku, Gohan and Kefla stand compared to each other and why. I feel like the manga makes it fairly apparent how these characters stack up, but I''m going to throw some relative comparisons at everyone anyway. Some people apparently like my posts?

If anyone gives a damn, go back to page 1305 of this thread and read a post of mine that outlines where Gohan and Kefla stand compared to one another and why their fight was even possible, using only explicit statements and information taken straight from the manga. It'll help anyone who cares to understand where I'm pulling most of my references from.

To start off, we have to know where Kefla stands. Throughout her entire appearance in the manga, Kefla is not fighting at full power. The post I made on page 1305 explains this in full detail, but I will paraphrase it here. According to events in the Future Trunks arc involving a similar scenario with Goku, Vegeta and Vegito, we know that the physical states of the two members of a Potara fusion affect the power of the resultant fused warrior. Caulifla was beaten and exhausted from fighting Golden Frieza and Kale had burned up nearly all of her power before fusing into Kefla. Afterwards, Kefla was not allowed to recover her strength, nor was she healed by anyone or anything. Thus, Kefla was not at full power. If Caulifla and Kale were fully rested and at full power prior to fusing, Kefla would've likely been the second most powerful fighter in the entire tournament - second only to Jiren. Gohan wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance in hell.

This is where the relative comparisons come in. They are not exact and the comparisons will be rough because we don't have precise enough factual information regarding specific character strength in Super to know with 100%, foolproof certainty. At best, these will be conservative estimations based on what we know. This will not be popular...

Based on what we know, Caulifla is very comparable to Cabba in her base and Super Saiyan forms. There's a little wiggle room, but not enough to make much of difference going forward. This means that if Vegeta's statements regarding Cabba during the Tournament of Destroyers is still accurate, Caulifla is roughly as strong as Goku and Vegeta in their base and Super Saiyan forms. During the Tournament of Power, Caulifla is handily beaten by Golden Frieza. Caulifla should not be not at her full strength after this fight. At bare minimum, she is injured and tired. It's uncertain by how much, but this should put her somewhere slightly below current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan Goku in strength prior to fusing with Kale.

Kale on the other hand, was potentially stronger than even Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku at her absolute peak. We don't actually know for certain how strong Super Saiyan Kale is at full strength. We never get to see her fight Completed SSB Goku after she powers up in chapter 37 and no definitive statements are made by anyone. Whether or not peak Kale is stronger than peak Goku is unknown. Even if she were stronger than Completed SSB Goku at her maximum power, it doesn't actually matter. Kale doesn't carry that maximum power on into Kefla. Kale instead burns out nearly all of that power eliminating the other universes. By the time she fights the Pride Troopers, Vegeta explicitly stated that she is losing power and is nearing her limit. He sees no reason to even bother interfering at this point.

The aforementioned point is important, but this next part is crucial.

The Pride Troopers are able to "defeat" Kale on their own. Earlier in the tournament, Goku was easily handling all of the same Pride Troopers that defeated Kale - by himself as a regular Super Saiyan. This allows us to roughly gauge where Kale's power stands at this point. There is a stipulation made here by Vegeta that part of the reason the Pride Troopers can handle Kale is because her berserk movements are simple and easy to predict. This implies that if Kale were more in control of herself, the Pride Troopers may have a harder time dealing with her power. From this information, we can gather that in her current state, Kale is likely still stronger than Super Saiyan Goku by a decent margin and the difference in their performance against the Pride Troopers being Goku's martial prowess and calm mind. That said, Kale still has to be somewhere in the same ballpark as Super Saiyan Goku or the Pride Troopers wouldn't be able to compete with her. A conservative estimate would put Kale's current reduced power roughly around Super Saiyan 2 Goku - give or take. Any higher and the Pride Troopers would likely be overwhelmed. Again, this is a conservative estimate. Kale could be a little weaker, or she could be a little stronger. It's literally impossible to know for sure. She can't be massively stronger, otherwise the Pride Troopers wouldn't be able to keep up. She would've simply flattened them like the other universes' fighters.

With Super Saiyan Caulifla being slightly weaker than Super Saiyan Goku thanks to her fight with Golden Frieza, and Kale having lost so much power eliminating other universes that the Pride Troopers can defeat her with only minor difficulty, where would this put Kefla's level of power when these two fuse?

Caulifla is a little weaker than Super Saiyan Goku and Kale is marginally stronger than Super Saiyan Goku (rough estimate). By all known accounts, current (Tournament of Power) Goku and Vegeta are equals in their base and Super Saiyan states. Based on this information, the Kefla that we see in the manga is likely only marginally stronger than a hypothetical current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan Vegito.

If you're still with me on this ( ), let's break this down even further.

Let's be frank here. If Kefla were formed by Super Saiyan Caulifla and Kale at peak power, they would likely utterly stomp Completed SSB Goku. However, thanks to the information gleaned from the Future Trunks arc, we know that Kefla is not at her full potential when she appears in the Tournament of Power. If estimations are accurate, Super Saiyan Kefla should only be somewhat stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. The reason being, Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are equals, exhausted Super Saiyan Caulifla is slightly weaker than both of them and weakened Super Saiyan Kale is somewhat stronger than both of them. With the two of them together, Kale's extra power should make up the difference for Caulifla's exhaustion with a little extra power left over to boot. This indicates that, all other things being equal, this weakened Super Saiyan Kefla should only be a little stronger than a fresh Super Saiyan Vegito.

Now, thanks to Battle of Gods, we know that Super Saiyan God Goku alone is more powerful than the then-current fusion of Goku and Vegeta. At the time, the only benchmark for fusion between Goku and Vegeta was a non-God Super Saiyan Vegito (potentially higher if we assume Goku bothered to factor in Super Saiyan 3). Since the relative difference in power between current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan God Goku and a hypothetical current (Tournament of Power) Vegito would remain the same between now and Battle of Gods (their growth being contingent on one another), current (Tournament of Power) Super Saiyan God Goku would still be stronger than a non-God form Vegito. That being the case, the weakened Kefla we saw in the manga's version of the Tournament of Power (and by extension Ultimate Gohan) should actually be weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku.

That's a lot to take in, so let me nutshell it.

A fresh, full power Kefla would likely be able to trounce Completed SSB Goku, but thanks to the exhausted states of Caulifla and Kale prior to fusing, the Kelfa that was formed was actually within the realm of Super Saiyan Vegito and thus, weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku.

In a way, this is almost exactly the same thing that happened to Vegeta during the Tournament of Destroyers. Vegeta burned off so much power with his first transformation into Super Saiyan Blue that he was only around 10% of his maximum power against Hit and was annihilated. Super Saiyan God Goku then went on to outperform Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue despite being in an inferior form.

It's wild, I know. However, the information provided by statements and feats in the manga corroborate what happened. You just have to put all the pieces together. That's how we get Kefla that should, by all accounts, curb stomp Completed SSB Goku fighting to a draw against Ultimate Gohan.

In conclusion:
Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan = (weakened) Super Saiyan Kefla
(full strength) Super Saiyan Kefla > Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan

Based on everything we know and a couple conservative estimates (only because we have no solid statements otherwise), the manga's notion of Gohan being weaker than Goku, yet still capable of tying with Kefla works out just fine. To Gohan's credit, growing to be somewhat stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito from training in the gravity room is impressive. Fresh Full Potential Gohan back in the Buu arc outstripped Gotenks's Metamoran fusion, so beating out Potara fusion with some intense training is actually entirely within the realm of possibility for him - considering the circumstances. We never got to see what would happen if Gohan were to continue training on top of having his potential drawn out by Elder Kai back in Z. I guess this is the result.

Also:

The whole thing makes no sense but Krillin's statement was more explicit so it wins out and it must be that Goku>Gohan/Kefla

You seem to be getting hung up on Vados's statement that Kefla "may be unmatched on this battlefield" (ch. 38, pg. 41) being a definitive statement. Bear in mind that Vados was speculating when she said this and that it was said with Jiren still standing on the field. Unless you consider the idea that Kefla could be stronger than Jiren as a possibility, it's best to take Vados's speculation with a grain of salt.

---

Now, in keeping with my attitude towards engaging with this community, I'll probably not be taking part in any further discussion. I would rather let others consider it for themselves and argue the merits of this information amongst one another, call it "delusional fanboy nonsense" or ignore it all completely. Frankly, I don't care which. I'm not really here to try to change unwilling minds or argue with anyone about anything anymore - I've had more than enough of that for several lifetimes. I'm just putting the info out there for anyone who might give a shit,[/spoiler]

Thanks , I did enjoyed this post an the previous one , good job on the compilation of info regarding gohan vs kefla .
I’m not too much into strength discussions, I think is very subjective most of the times but I do appreciate this not too much subjective post . Btw ... my dislike about that battle was how kefla admits her fate at some point , the fight had nice panels and movements, bad that it’s short and some offscreen , but it was enjoyable, especially the building up of that fusion on previous chapters .

[Rebel Instinct]

Thanks , I did enjoyed this post an the previous one , good job on the compilation of info regarding gohan vs kefla .
I’m not too much into strength discussions, I think is very subjective most of the times but I do appreciate this not too much subjective post . Btw ... my dislike about that battle was how kefla admits her fate at some point , the fight had nice panels and movements, bad that it’s short and some offscreen , but it was enjoyable, especially the building up of that fusion on previous chapters .

I glad you liked it. That anyone gets something out of what I say is the least I could hope for. Btw, it's good to see you haven't left the fandom entirely yet.

Normally, I don't bother with strength debates either. The subject matter is always so messy and the discussions are usually so... emotionally charged. I just don't have the patience for it. The only reason I decided to address this particular issue (where Goku in particular stands relative to the others) is because it was tangential to a post I had already made and thought, "Why not?" People are free to react to it in any way they see fit. Most will probably hate it or, at the very least, disagree vehemently.

The only thing I didn't care for about the Gohan/Kefla fight was that it was mostly off-screen. Not liking the dialogue or the character personalities is totally subjective, so that's up to the individual to decide. Not really worth arguing about really. Statements and feats regarding power are a lot more concrete (relatively speaking) and understanding them can make or break a person's enjoyment of a given fight. It's something worth talking about on occasion, especially if it can help others digest a fight they might not otherwise like or understand. My two prior posts here outline why I think the rest of it was fine. I actually kind of liked how humble Kefla was. Probably because it's a character trait I really respect in people. It just would've been nice to have seen more of the actual fight. Maybe it will get a couple extra pages later on like the Vegito/Fused Zamasu fight did. Who knows? I'm not too bothered by it either way. I enjoyed what was there well enough.

[JazzMazz]

I think the problem with how Kefla was presented in the manga in her fight with Gohan, was that they never really specified that she had in fact been weakened from the injuries she received. Contrary to that, they actually hyped her up, with Vados describing her as the "ultimate warrior", and potentially being "unmatched on this battlefield".

It just hypes up Kefla as a threat that she really doesn't end up being.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the problem with how Kefla was presented in the manga in her fight with Gohan, was that they never really specified that she had in fact been weakened from the injuries she received. Contrary to that, they actually hyped her up, with Vados describing her as the "ultimate warrior", and potentially being "unmatched on this battlefield".

It just hypes up Kefla as a threat that she really doesn't end up being.

It could be that the anime's interpretation is what Kefla SHOULD be were her fusees at full strength.

That, or manga-Kefla is a Kibitoshin/manga-Merged Zamasu type fusion and the anime is like a Vegito or Corrupted Merged Zamasu type fusion.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The whole thing makes no sense but Krillin's statement was more explicit so it wins out and it must be that Goku>Gohan/Kefla

You seem to be getting hung up on Vados's statement that Kefla "may be unmatched on this battlefield" (ch. 38, pg. 41) being a definitive statement. Bear in mind that Vados was speculating when she said this and that it was said with Jiren still standing on the field. Unless you consider the idea that Kefla could be stronger than Jiren as a possibility, it's best to take Vados's speculation with a grain of salt.

Jiren is probably the reason Vados added the "may" to her statement. The raw statement would imply Kefla is even stronger than what Jiren has displayed by this point, but might be matched, or even surpassed if

Though Vados' statement holds as much weight as her former statement of Frost being the strongest fighter of the U6 in the first Tournament. Just hyping a fighter to calm Champa down. I think Kefla even implied herself she couldn't beat Goku: Her last words were "And we couldn't bet a single Saiyan…", what implies she's uncapable of beating any Universe 7 Saiyan.

[Marlowe89]

I think the problem with how Kefla was presented in the manga in her fight with Gohan, was that they never really specified that she had in fact been weakened from the injuries she received. Contrary to that, they actually hyped her up, with Vados describing her as the "ultimate warrior", and potentially being "unmatched on this battlefield".

It just hypes up Kefla as a threat that she really doesn't end up being.

Kefla can be an "ultimate warrior" without necessarily being the strongest fighter there, so that's fine. Even though Vados herself wasn't actually sure if Kefla was unmatched, her speculation does lend credibility to Kefla's power; the purpose is to emphasize that she's now in one of the higher tiers of competitors, likely capable of giving Goku a fight, which is indeed what she tries to do before Gohan interrupts her in an event that's narratively intended to demonstrate his power as also being within that range. That's why Krillin wonders if Gohan is capable of surpassing Goku in the following chapter.

It makes sense, and there are no contradictions in particular, but it's admittedly not quite as specific as we'd expect. As Rebel Instinct's post explains, Kefla and Gohan can be anywhere from Super Vegito's level to just below Super Saiyan Blue Goku; although again, given Vados' and Krillin's dialogue, I'm more inclined to say they're closer to the latter.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Regarding Vados statement of "Kefla MAY be Unmatched..."

In Ch 39, we saw Toppo power up even more which surprised Vegeta and Vegeta still by the end of the chapter appeared to hold an Edge. Goku also powered up at the cost of his body, Freeza claimed he wasn't serious vs Kale which I believe and Jiren doesn't see Goku as any kind of threat and we know he's been holding back. A lot of the top tier fighters had not gone fully 100% just yet which is why Vados statement wasn't necessarily wrong.

For example : Fully Serious CSSB Vegeta > SS Kefla > Not FULLY Serious CSSB Vegeta

If I had to group them into Tiers :

Tier 1 : Jiren

Tier 2: Goku, Vegeta, Toppo

Tier 3: Gohan, Kefla, Golden Freeza.

With there being a very small gap between Tier 2 and 3

[Puaru]

Thank God and Jesus that the manga showed that Gohan is in fact strong. The Super anime, when taking the whole show into account, made Gohan seem weaker than not only Goku and Vegeta but also Freeza, Trunks and that complete nobody 17. That was lame as fuck and for a long time i absolutely hated Gohan because of how lame and gay he was. I wnated nothing to do with him anymore because he was a disapointment.

But now I can respecvt him again because of what the manga showed. But I hate it when people say that the anime and manag versions of Goahn are somehow "different" Gohans and that the "real" version is the lame as peice of shit anime version. I dont wanna hear anymore of that nonsense.

[ZombieVito]

Thank God and Jesus that the manga showed that Gohan is in fact strong. The Super anime, when taking the whole show into account, made Gohan seem weaker than not only Goku and Vegeta but also Freeza, Trunks and that complete nobody 17. That was lame as fuck and for a long time i absolutely hated Gohan because of how lame and gay he was. I wnated nothing to do with him anymore because he was a disapointment.

But now I can respecvt him again because of what the manga showed. But I hate it when people say that the anime and manag versions of Goahn are somehow "different" Gohans and that the "real" version is the lame as peice of shit anime version. I dont wanna hear anymore of that nonsense.

Gohan IS weaker than Goku, Vegeta or Freeza.

Trunks is only stronger thanks to Super Saiyan Rage and 17 is a toss up.

[ekrolo2]

Thank God and Jesus that the manga showed that Gohan is in fact strong. The Super anime, when taking the whole show into account, made Gohan seem weaker than not only Goku and Vegeta but also Freeza, Trunks and that complete nobody 17. That was lame as fuck and for a long time i absolutely hated Gohan because of how lame and gay he was. I wnated nothing to do with him anymore because he was a disapointment.

But now I can respecvt him again because of what the manga showed. But I hate it when people say that the anime and manag versions of Goahn are somehow "different" Gohans and that the "real" version is the lame as peice of shit anime version. I dont wanna hear anymore of that nonsense.

Gohan IS weaker than Goku, Vegeta or Freeza.

Trunks is only stronger thanks to Super Saiyan Rage and 17 is a toss up.

Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

To make things simple for myself, I always viewed the situation as Goku, Freeza, and Vegeta all being equal in equivalent forms, and Ultimate Gohan and 17 being equal to one another but below the level of SSB/Golden Freeza.

In that sense, 17 and Gohan are comparable like how 17 and Piccolo used to be comparable; technically equal at full strength, but 17 lasts longer and can always use his full power in attacks without worrying about draining himself.

[Puaru]

Trunks is only stronger thanks to Super Saiyan Rage

And that's the biggest bullshit of all. If Trunks could magically get to SSB level just by getting angry then there is absolutely no reason why Gohan shouldn't be able to do the exact same thing since he has more potential.

[ZombieVito]

And that's the biggest bullshit of all. If Trunks could magically get to SSB level just by getting angry then there is absolutely no reason why Gohan shouldn't be able to do the exact same thing since he has more potential.

Gohan is SSB level.

Trunks has more potential than Gohan also.

Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.

Wait, what?

[PFM18]

Thank God and Jesus that the manga showed that Gohan is in fact strong. The Super anime, when taking the whole show into account, made Gohan seem weaker than not only Goku and Vegeta but also Freeza, Trunks and that complete nobody 17. That was lame as fuck and for a long time i absolutely hated Gohan because of how lame and gay he was. I wnated nothing to do with him anymore because he was a disapointment.

But now I can respecvt him again because of what the manga showed. But I hate it when people say that the anime and manag versions of Goahn are somehow "different" Gohans and that the "real" version is the lame as peice of shit anime version. I dont wanna hear anymore of that nonsense.

Gohan IS weaker than Goku, Vegeta or Freeza.

Trunks is only stronger thanks to Super Saiyan Rage and 17 is a toss up.

Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.

I haven't seen any of this. Link?

[Bergamo]

And that's the biggest bullshit of all. If Trunks could magically get to SSB level just by getting angry then there is absolutely no reason why Gohan shouldn't be able to do the exact same thing since he has more potential.

Gohan is SSB level.

Trunks has more potential than Gohan also.

Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.

Wait, what?

"Trunks has more potential"
Then why didn't he go SS2? He was definitely angry enough and he had SS1 like 5 times longer, so what gives.

[ZombieVito]

Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.

I haven't seen any of this. Link?[/quote]
I have seen his tweet that said Gohan = 17 > Frost > Piccolo but not the rest of that. I would like a link ekrolo2.