Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:05 pm

AFAIK Toshio never ranked Piccolo above 17.

He did kind of contradict himself because in one tweet he ranked Gohan above 17 then in another one he said Gohan = 17

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:17 am

Android 17 being stronger than current Ultimate Gohan is pretty obvious in my opinion.

Android 17 fires a barrage of ki blasts at Toppo, and Toppo dodges and fights back with his own Justice Flash (the word "dodges" is important because this is the same Toppo that just tanked Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha like it was a joke not long before). During this time, Gohan tries to sneak up behind Toppo (while he is still busy firing away at Android 17), but is instantly grabbed and tossed aside like some common fodder nobody. Not long after, Android 17 rushes Toppo head-on (not from behind like useless Gohan) and manages to tangle with the Pride Trooper in a brief hand to hand scuffle.

Then there's also Android 17 also giving (full power) Toppo trouble during their beam struggle. Sure, Frieza jumped in at the end, but if Android 17 was such a joke like some people seem to like to claim, why didn't Toppo just move out of the way, utilizing a maneuver similar to what Goku did with Majin Vegeta at the World Martial Arts Tournament, and let said weakling's blast just take out Frieza? Or better yet, since Android 17 was so "weak" why didn't Toppo just use one hand to fend him off? He is weak after all right? He's apparently a mere fraction of SSB-tier so why not just use one hand to get the job done? Point is, Toppo was fixated on resisting Android 17's blast. Frieza even implies this when he mentions how Toppo is unable to fight back. In my opinion, this is a pretty darn clear indication that Android 17 wasn't far off from Toppo's full power.

Seriously, this whole Android 17 downplay is old, and there are far too many feats that suggest Android 17 is at least >> ToP Ultimate Gohan, who was strongly suggested to be SSB-tier. Meaning, both Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan are likely leagues stronger than RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta / Golden Frieza and likely far stronger than SSB Goku / Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:24 am

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Gohan IS weaker than Goku, Vegeta or Freeza.

Trunks is only stronger thanks to Super Saiyan Rage and 17 is a toss up.
Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.
I haven't seen any of this. Link?
It's kind of in broken Engrish but it came out around the time 17 first came back, but before Freeza was recruited:https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 4454428673

There's another tweet he made about his power but I can't find the translation for it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Puaru » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:45 am

Bergamo wrote: "Trunks has more potential"
Then why didn't he go SS2? He was definitely angry enough and he had SS1 like 5 times longer, so what gives.
Exactly. The whole Cell arc was about Gohan having more potential than any other Z fighter, including Trunks. But the dumbasses who wrote the super anime seemed to ignore this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:13 am

Puaru wrote:
Bergamo wrote: "Trunks has more potential"
Then why didn't he go SS2? He was definitely angry enough and he had SS1 like 5 times longer, so what gives.
Exactly. The whole Cell arc was about Gohan having more potential than any other Z fighter, including Trunks. But the dumbasses who wrote the super anime seemed to ignore this.
Agreed, Future Trunks in his original appearance is not a great fighter with vast potential, he's the bottom feeder Super Saiyan. Turning him from that into someone with enough potential to rival post Whis training Goku & Vegeta in their various forms by doing... Something off screen and fighting Vegeta for a couple of days epitomizes the lazy gift wrapping of power tossed around constantly nowadays.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:15 am

Well in the manga, Trunks did train with the Z Sword so he should have been at least as strong as Buu Saga Goku who was ahead of Cell Games Gohan.

They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.

Then if he'd fought Goku Black for a year or so then maybe he had some Zenkai Boosts in addition to that. Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:13 am

Bullza wrote:Well in the manga, Trunks did train with the Z Sword so he should have been at least as strong as Buu Saga Goku who was ahead of Cell Games Gohan.

They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.

Then if he'd fought Goku Black for a year or so then maybe he had some Zenkai Boosts in addition to that. Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.
Zenkai boosts don't happen anymore, why do people not get this?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:25 am

Oh, Let's not kid ourselves, there is barely any logical argument that can explain Future Trunks utterly destroying single-handedly Fused Zamasu with the help of two exhausted base form saiyans who were no match for the aforemention Fused Zamasu, and 30 wounded civilians, makes any sense whatsoever. It's a cheap ending to a great arc, made solely to please the massive Future Trunks fanbase.
Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.
And why would that give him such a massive boost that he can now trade blows with Fused Zamasu himself, when Goku Black alone was roflstomping him effortlessly?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:54 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Zenkai boosts don't happen anymore, why do people not get this?
Well Goku Black seemed to get one. In the manga they said Goku and Vegeta didn't have them anymore because they were near their limits but Trunks wouldn't have been so maybe he was able to get a few.

Maybe they did a re-retcon and brought them back.
SupremeKai25 wrote:And why would that give him such a massive boost that he can now trade blows with Fused Zamasu himself, when Goku Black alone was roflstomping him effortlessly?
That was after absorbing the Spirit Bomb into himself and being given energy from Goku and Vegeta though, it wasn't from his own power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:15 pm

That was after absorbing the Spirit Bomb into himself and being given energy from Goku and Vegeta though, it wasn't from his own power.
The energy of two exhausted base form saiyans who were no match for Fused Zamasu (so much so that he easily crushed them with one punch and would have killed them too), a bunch of worthless civilians, and the nature of a dying planet that was literally being torn asunder.

That is the worst offender, yes, but I'm not referring just to that. I am also talking about the moments prior to that, when he was able to trade blows with Fused Zamasu all on his own, parry his attacks, and even mutilate his chest, before the enemy's regeneration kicked in.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:21 pm

Bullza wrote:They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.
See that is the obvious implication if he trained with Supreme Kai. That of course is what that would entail, it would essentially go similar to when Kaioshin brought Gihan to the Z sword.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:46 pm

Guys, what if every future villain is hyped to have "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" but they never actually clarify and it's forever left ambiguous?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:23 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Guys, what if every future villain is hyped to have "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" but they never actually clarify and it's forever left ambiguous?
That'd suck.

It's high time they get off the Beerus pedestal and make some room for new walls; if you're gonna do it, make it explicit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:51 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: It's kind of in broken Engrish but it came out around the time 17 first came back, but before Freeza was recruited:https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 4454428673

There's another tweet he made about his power but I can't find the translation for it.
:think:

So Piccolo also got strong after E88?
ekrolo2 wrote: Agreed, Future Trunks in his original appearance is not a great fighter with vast potential, he's the bottom feeder Super Saiyan. Turning him from that into someone with enough potential to rival post Whis training Goku & Vegeta in their various forms by doing... Something off screen and fighting Vegeta for a couple of days epitomizes the lazy gift wrapping of power tossed around constantly nowadays.
Yeah, I can't agree with this. The guy literally became over 50 times stronger in 3 years while training alone. He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.

He surpassed Future Gohan all by himself at the age of 17. He has more potential than him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:22 pm

Future Gohan =/= Present Timeline Gohan

Future Gohan trained and fought for over a decade after the Androids appeared and couldn't even go beyond ssj or defeat Androids who were apparently weaker than the present timeline ones

Present Timeline Gohan used the gravity chamber for about a year, trained with Piccolo and used the ToP and especially Kefla fight to jump from his Buu Saga peak to rivaling CSSB Goku

Even in the anime, Gohan basically trained on and off after RoF + training session with Piccolo before the ToP to reach levels to where he could atleast compete with ssg -ssb level fighters

I completely disagree that F Trunks has greater potential than Present Timeline Gohan

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:23 pm

ZombieVito wrote: He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.
Nope. Trunks hit the androids with a charged-up blast and literally nothing happened, with Vegeta mocking him for the effort. Five minutes later both Trunks (after sensing his dad) and Vegeta (having already sensed his son) think that Vegeta can beat those same androids.

I see we're also ignoring Trunks still being weaker than Dabra after at least 4 years of hardcore training (even in SS2, in the manga), and failing to come close to either Goku or Gohan despite being in the ROSAT twice as long as them.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:47 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.
Nope. Trunks hit the androids with a charged-up blast and literally nothing happened, with Vegeta mocking him for the effort. Five minutes later both Trunks (after sensing his dad) and Vegeta (having already sensed his son) think that Vegeta can beat those same androids.

I see we're also ignoring Trunks still being weaker than Dabra after at least 4 years of hardcore training (even in SS2, in the manga), and failing to come close to either Goku or Gohan despite being in the ROSAT twice as long as them.
That was only ssj1 Trunks that was weaker than Dabra in the manga. He gained ssj2 during the fight and then stomped him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:55 am

dragon boss z wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.
Nope. Trunks hit the androids with a charged-up blast and literally nothing happened, with Vegeta mocking him for the effort. Five minutes later both Trunks (after sensing his dad) and Vegeta (having already sensed his son) think that Vegeta can beat those same androids.

I see we're also ignoring Trunks still being weaker than Dabra after at least 4 years of hardcore training (even in SS2, in the manga), and failing to come close to either Goku or Gohan despite being in the ROSAT twice as long as them.
That was only ssj1 Trunks that was weaker than Dabra in the manga. He gained ssj2 during the fight and then stomped him.
He attacked him in his rage several times and did zero damage. Kaioshin had to paralyze him.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:20 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Guys, what if every future villain is hyped to have "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" but they never actually clarify and it's forever left ambiguous?
That'd suck.

It's high time they get off the Beerus pedestal and make some room for new walls; if you're gonna do it, make it explicit.
It would be pretty hilarious though

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:07 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:The energy of two exhausted base form saiyans who were no match for Fused Zamasu (so much so that he easily crushed them with one punch and would have killed them too), a bunch of worthless civilians, and the nature of a dying planet that was literally being torn asunder.
They weren't that exhausted, just injured from the punch. Also just because they were in their Base form when they gave their energy doesn't mean that they only gave a Base level amount of power.

The Spirit Bomb is generally just as powerful as need be. The one Goku threw at Frieza was huge and that only got energy from the plants and the land. Also I don't think the power of the individual actually factors in because the Spirit Bomb is taking Genki energy so it should be no different if it was from Gohan or from Farmer with Shotgun.
That is the worst offender, yes, but I'm not referring just to that. I am also talking about the moments prior to that, when he was able to trade blows with Fused Zamasu all on his own, parry his attacks, and even mutilate his chest, before the enemy's regeneration kicked in.
He did have another Rage Boost prior to attacking Fused Zamasu the first time, just before he broke his sword in two.

So Trunks at that point would have been even stronger than he was when he fought Goku Black. Presumably after the Rage Boost he was back on Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta's level again.

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