PFM18 wrote:Bergamo wrote:PFM18 wrote:
1. Gowasu said it was because he was a lord of lords IIRC
2. ...that isn't at all what I was saying. Trunks being able to be an apprentice Kaioshin despite not being born a Kai contradicts things. Zamasu is a normal case in which he was born a Kai and was trained to become a Kaioshin.
1. You don't recall correctly. Gowas says that only the Lord of Lords is supposed to use the time ring. He later says that he was keeping the Lord of Lords ritual a secret from Zamas until the time was right.
2. Toriyama specifically says that Kaioshin are born Kaioshin. He also says that Kaioshin live for 75000 years and Shin is well over 5 million, so what does Toriyama know.
Eh you may be right. I'll have to take a look back.
Well, I was wondering when I'd feel the need to address these subjects. I was hoping it wouldn't come up since it's kinda complicated and some of it comes down to VIZ's awkward translating of the original intent (something of a running trend with their recent work), but I suppose it's necessary. I'm pretty busy at the moment, so this won't be as detailed as my other recent posts, but oh well. I'll try my best.
Toyotaro has a slightly different interpretation of the rules than the anime's. it takes a little deductive reasoning to parse out since there's no direct statements. I say deductive reasoning, but it's more like process of elimination really. Toyotaro does this a lot actually. He'll write in a development, statement or idea and then expect the reader to remember it on their own and recognize that it's still effect without being directly told later on when something relevant happens (the power of Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form is a perfect example).
Now, to address the Potara/Time Ring/Lord of Lords (or, Kaioshin as I'll be referring to it as from here on) issue.
Bergamo is right here, the only thing needed to use a Time Ring is for the user to possess at least one Potara earring. Being a legitimate Kaioshin isn't actually necessary. The confusion largely comes down to the interplay between owning a pair of Potaras and being a Kaioshin.
On pages 5-7 of chapter 17, Gowasu explains the mechanics of the Time Ring to Zamasu. Gowasu says, "Only those that are granted the power of the Lord of Lords have the privilege of traveling to the future with the Ring of Time." If you notice, Gowasu specifically mentions "the privilege" of using a Time Ring. The wording is a tad vague, but Gowasu isn't saying that only Kaioshin are "capable" of using a Time Ring, rather, what he's saying is that only Kaioshin are "permitted" to use the Time Ring to travel to the future. It's not a matter of
ability, but rather a matte of
permission.
If you watch carefully, Gowasu specifically promotes Zamasu temporarily to the rank of Kaioshin
before he puts on the earring. Giving the Potara to Zamasu was both a mechanical and a symbolic gesture. Under normal circumstances, only a Kaoishin is permitted to wear Potara earrings. They are a symbol of status that a Kai is only granted once they become an official Kaioshin. It would otherwise be against the rules for a lesser Kai to wear them. Only
after Zamasu is promoted to the rank of Kaioshin does he put on the earring to symbolize his promotion. If all it took to operate a Time Ring were to be promoted to a legitimate Kaioshin, there would be no need for Gowasu to bother giving Zamasu a Potara - Zamasu would just be able to use the ring without it and Gowasu would've had no reason to take his off for a simple temporary promotion. Only after the earring is in place does Gowasu then show Zamasu how to activate the Time Ring.
Now this is where Toyotaro deviates from the anime.
In the manga, the act of killing the acting Kaioshin and taking his Potara does not automatically promote the remaining Kai to his position. Like I mentioned earlier, Gowasu made sure to verbally promote Zamasu to Kaioshin before granting him a Potara in chapter 17. This action made it so that Zamasu could "legally" use the earring without breaking the rules (as per the rules of the Gods/Kais). As we see later, we know that being a legitimate Kaioshin is not necessary to use a Time Ring, as neither Zamasu or Black are technically Kaioshin. This means that the only common denominator left is the Potara earrings themselves. If all it took for Zamasu to use a Time Ring was to kill Gowasu and become Kaioshin, Zamasu would've had no need to take his Potara earrings - he could've simply used the Time Ring on his own thanks to his newfound status. Likewise, there would be no reason to divide the Potara between both Black and Zamasu. They would've been able to use the Time Ring without them. Yet, both made sure to have at least one Potara apiece so that they could utilize the Time Ring if need be.
Now, there is one small niggle that I know has caused some confusion on this subject in the past. That niggle being a comment made by Gowasu in response to Shin lamenting the fact that he gave up his healing powers upon becoming a Kaioshin on page 7 of chapter 24. Shin says, "If I had chosen to remain as the apprentice to the old Kaioshin, I would still have the power of restoration..." To which Gowasu says, "You're right, but if you hadn't become Lord of Lords, you wouldn't have been able to use the Ring of Time to come here."
Understandably, this sounds like a contradiction at first. However, as you may have noticed from the lines I quotes from Shin and Gowasu where VIZ uses both the term Kaoishin and Lord of Lords to describe the same rank (in the very same conversation!), the translation work here is a bit sloppy. Of course VIZ would choose to phone it in on such an important bit of dialogue...
The translated dialogue in the chapter is awkward, but what Gowasu is reiterating here is pretty much exactly what I outlined above - Shin wouldn't have been able to use the Time Ring not because he physically couldn't, but because it would've been against the rules for him to own the Potara necessary to use the ring. Were Shin to have never been promoted, he would have never received Potara earrings and thus wouldn't be able to use the Time Ring. Shin could've stolen Potara for himself to use the Time Ring, but then he would be breaking the rules like Zamasu and would likely be punished for doing so. The way Gowasu's line is phrased in English makes it seem like a straight-up contradiction to earlier statements, but it's just an unfortunately vaguely worded reply on Gowasu's part to a tangentially relevant topic.
To reiterate:
It isn't necessary to be a legitimate Kaioshin in order to use a Time Ring, you only need at least one Potara earring for the Time Ring to work. However, Kais are not granted Potara earrings unless they are officially appointed to the rank of Kaioshin. Zamasu got them by killing Gowasu and stealing his Potara. If Shin hadn't been appointed Kaioshin, he would not have been granted Potara without either being promoted or by stealing them (something he would never do) and would thus not be able to use a Time Ring.
As I said earlier, no one ever directly states, "The Time Ring only works with the Potara earrings!", but thanks to all the information and context clues we're given, we know that's what's going on. It's quite
literally the only way for any of this to work. We're given all the necessary information, it's all just left up to the reader to remember it all and put it together.
Okay, now for the part regarding Trunks's healing power, the term "apprentice" and what it means to become one.
First thing's first,
Bergamo is right about Toriyama's inconsistencies regarding Kaioshin. Below is a link to another thread here on Kanzenshuu that outlines the contradictions Toriyama has made between his own interviews regarding how Kaioshin are born and appointed and how long they live. The very fact that Zamasu can be promoted from Kaiou-sama to Kaioshin would seem to be a contradiction to Toriyama's own interviews.
viewtopic.php?t=32719
Because there doesn't appear to be any solid logic for how Kaioshin come to be, it's best to not think too deeply about it. If you try to take all the available information we have been given, very little of it will actually match up. That said, there is a little information that I
can clarify.
For one, the term "apprentice" that's used to describe Trunks's position is actually not entirely accurate. "Disciple" would be closer in meaning to what the position entails and that term is different to what is used to describe either Kibito or Zamasu. For example, Kibito is referred to as a Kaioshin Attendant or "Kaiōshin Tsukibito" (literally, Worlds' Kings' Gods' Attendant) in the original Japanese. Zamasu, on the other hand, is referred to as a Kaioshin Apprentice or "Kaiōshin Minarai" (literally, Worlds' Kings' Gods' Apprentice). The VIZ translation uses the term "apprentice" to describe Trunks's position too, but it's somewhat inaccurate. It's actually a totally different word than what's used to describe Kibito or Zamasu. Trunks is actually referred to as a Kaioshin Disciple or "Kaiōshin no Deshi" (literally, Worlds' Kings' Gods' Disciple).
As you can see, all three positions are actually different from one another and thus the rules governing each one will be a little different from one another. Kaioshin are indeed born as Kaioshin (at least, according to Toriyama's latest...
ahem... "revision"), but that's okay. Trunks can't become an actual Kaioshin, but he
can still become a Disciple without any contradictions since the position isn't related to the Kai race or Kaioshin succession process.
Like I mentioned at the start of this post, I'm pretty busy at the moment, so please forgive any typos, awkward phrasing or lack of detail. I had to type this out in spurts over a lengthy period of time. Hopefully it gets my points across properly and clarifies any confusion on the topics at hand. i did the best I could under the circumstances.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
