Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:56 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Rank these 3

SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and SS2 Kefla
Easy. Pure strength, GoD Toppo is the strongest.

SS2 Kefla is much stronger than even SSB/KK Goku, whom SSBE Vegeta is equal to.

In terms of ability to hit above their paygrade, Vegeta takes the cake with his Final Explosion and family-oriented power bursts.
That doesn't make sense, even SSBKK Goku at this point is stronger and stronger than SSJ2 Kefla . In episode 122 Jiren was stated to have the strongest ki Vegeta had felt even when watching the fight with Kefla and Goku after Toppo left. Later in episode 123 Goku claims that the new powered up Jiren with a simple punch was the hardest Goku had felt which also implies this Jiren is stronger than even SSJ2 Kefla. Even so with have SSBKK Goku and Vegeta was able to push Jiren with attack and affecting him with blows. IDK where you're think SSBKK is equal to SSBE, even around it's first appearance we see Goku resorting to rely on Vegeta on hitting Jiren with ki powered attack which have pushed Jiren to counter with ki powered attacks of his own such as glare and ki powered punch(the same thing which is the most powerful thing Goku had felt). Even if you assume that Vegeta was on pair he went from struggling to overpower a hakai with a final flash to punching through it after his power up(stronger blasts as Belmod told him to use more force). For reference the Kamehameha(which should be similar if not less) increases it's user power level 2x, so Vegeta would've got over 2x as strong from that point. Later in episode 127 Jiren compliments Vegeta's punch even when fatigue which proves he was doing better than SSBKK Goku and 17.


I also don't understand why you think Toppo is the strongest considering Vegeta pretty much was overwhleming him with punches to the point Toppo couldn't fight back and had his more stronger hakai blasts being punch through with ease as belmod told him to use more force.
ssj3kakarot wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Rank these 3

SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and SS2 Kefla
Easy. Pure strength, GoD Toppo is the strongest.

SS2 Kefla is much stronger than even SSB/KK Goku, whom SSBE Vegeta is equal to.

In terms of ability to hit above their paygrade, Vegeta takes the cake with his Final Explosion and family-oriented power bursts.
ss2 kefla
God Toppo
SSBE Vegeta

Simply because I think if you put 2nd Omen Goku vs G-Toppo or SSBE Vegeta, they would fair worse compared to SS2 Kefla.

I agree with the statement about Vegeta and hitting above his paygrade though.

Why? Vegeta and Toppo are vastly more powerful than SSJ2 Kefla let alone episode 123 SSBKK Goku or Jiren from 122 would be more powerful . Omen Goku in his 2nd phase, would have it harder to dodge attacks and be more overwhelmed in power, not to mention he'll have a harder time hurting either of them espeically the guy coated with Hakai energy. I don't why people are thinking SSJ2 Kefla is stronger than either SSBE or Toppo, I'm waiting for proof.
CTAkuma wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Nah. God toppo is stronger than kefla. A simple hakai was enought to warp the world of void and crack the arena in half.
Hakai can't kill beings who are equal or stronger than you, which was shown against Blue Evolution Vegeta whom Toppo lost to in raw power. Kefla is superior than Blue Evolution Vegeta thus also Toppo
Where is Kefla being above SSBE Vegeta or Toppo coming from? She's not let alone stronger than SSBKK Goku from 123 or SSBE in it's eariler apperance, as they were affecting and pushing Jiren with blows. The same Jiren whom had the hardest hits Goku have ever felt and a more powerful version than the one that was stated to have the strongest Ki he felt by Vegeta. It's worse with SSBE Vegeta getting a zenkai in 126 from struggling with hakai blast with the final flash to punching through one with more effort by Toppo later on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:25 pm

With regards to Vegeta, the showrunners have pretty much stated that SSBE is Vegeta's equivalent to SSB/KK that Goku possesses, whom was only potentially stronger than or equal to SS Kefla. And THEN she went SS2.

Meanwhile, before his little pride-family-rage boost, Vegeta was getting beaten pretty badly by Toppo, which makes sense given he just ascended to the same realm as the Gods of Destruction. Even after that, Vegeta STILL needed the Final Explosion, a move which hits beyond the user's ordinary level as demonstrated against Majin Buu, to knock Toppo and his Hakai Energy out; Toppo was merely knocked out of his God of Destruction form unconscious, rather than blown apart like Majin Buu, showing that the difference is still large in terms of pure power levels between Vegeta and Toppo.

After his bout with Toppo, Vegeta returns to a "normal" power level rather than an inflated "in-the-moment" one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:30 pm

SayianBeyondGod wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Rank these 3

SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and SS2 Kefla
Easy. Pure strength, GoD Toppo is the strongest.

SS2 Kefla is much stronger than even SSB/KK Goku, whom SSBE Vegeta is equal to.

In terms of ability to hit above their paygrade, Vegeta takes the cake with his Final Explosion and family-oriented power bursts.
That doesn't make sense, even SSBKK Goku at this point is stronger and stronger than SSJ2 Kefla . In episode 122 Jiren was stated to have the strongest ki Vegeta had felt even when watching the fight with Kefla and Goku after Toppo left. Later in episode 123 Goku claims that the new powered up Jiren with a simple punch was the hardest Goku had felt which also implies this Jiren is stronger than even SSJ2 Kefla.
Vegeta was specifically referring to people he faced, he also said Jiren wasn't using as much power as he was against Goku which would mean the level Jiren used against him was inferior to even the first UIO, let alone the far superior second one which Kefla faced. And Goku never got hit by SSJ2 Kefla so saying Jiren had the hardest punch he felt means nothing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:58 pm

In both the anime and the manga who is stronger out of Super Saiyan God Goku and Ultimate Gohan?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:59 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: That scene doesn't really mean anything when we never saw them fight at all. Who knows what happened. Vegeta certainly doesn't interpret it as "Freeza is equal to Goku", why should I?
Like I said, it doesn't mean they are equal, but it should mean they are relevant to each other. Golden Frieza may only be 80-90% MSSB, but it should be something close like that.
That's his pride talking. Roshi and Goku agreed that Goku needed to go save him, which would not have happened if they were so sure Kale was someone he could handle. That whole scene just exists to hype up Kale by showing her beating down Freeza. Jiren is a different case because 17 is not Goku, Jiren is not a Saiyan, and Jiren is already stronger than everyone else.
They just saw Frieza was getting beat up and Goku went to help. It shouldn't be looked into more than that.
LSS Kale also would have knocked Toppo out of the ring if he wasn't saved. And there's no chance they were off guard, they were engaged in combat with each other and were watching the whole time as LSS Kale ran at them. That doesn't mean she's stronger than him and CSSB Vegeta, but she is at that level.
They didn't expect Kale to charge them though.
Vegeta himself is the one who said her power might catch you off guard at first, but once you read her moves she isn't difficult.
So even if Kale was stronger than Frieza, Toppo, or Vegeta, they all would have beaten her in an actual fight. Kefla may be able to beat them though.
He wasn't off guard. Even if you assume that he was, he got smacked away and had a second to find his bearings and speak a few lines of dialogue, only for Kale to mozy on over to him and go back to smashing his face in. As far as the god-tiers go, the scale seems to be:
I don't mean off guard as in Goku getting hit by Sorbet's laser off guard. I mean more like he wasn't expecting that type of power so he fought sloppily. And he was dazed after getting beaten around a bit, which is why she was able to walk up and smack him again.
Jiren > UIS Goku > SSBE Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan ~ SS Kefla > Toppo ~ CSSB Goku/Vegeta >= LSS Kale (peak) > Golden Freeza > SSB Goku/Vegeta
That is definitely possible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:02 pm

Bullza wrote:In both the anime and the manga who is stronger out of Super Saiyan God Goku and Ultimate Gohan?
Anime Ult Gohan > Start of ToP SSG Goku, can't speak for end of ToP cause he improved a bunch

Manga Ult Gohan is way above SSG Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:04 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:With regards to Vegeta, the showrunners have pretty much stated that SSBE is Vegeta's equivalent to SSB/KK that Goku possesses, whom was only potentially stronger than or equal to SS Kefla. And THEN she went SS2.

Meanwhile, before his little pride-family-rage boost, Vegeta was getting beaten pretty badly by Toppo, which makes sense given he just ascended to the same realm as the Gods of Destruction. Even after that, Vegeta STILL needed the Final Explosion, a move which hits beyond the user's ordinary level as demonstrated against Majin Buu, to knock Toppo and his Hakai Energy out; Toppo was merely knocked out of his God of Destruction form unconscious, rather than blown apart like Majin Buu, showing that the difference is still large in terms of pure power levels between Vegeta and Toppo.

After his bout with Toppo, Vegeta returns to a "normal" power level rather than an inflated "in-the-moment" one.
Goku and Vegeta both got a lot stronger throughout the ToP, SSBKK Goku from episode 115 is not the same level as the one who was fighting Jiren later on.

Jiren in episode 127 caught a punch from SSBE Vegeta and said "A good punch, i can see how you beat toppo" so to your earlier point, the rage boost wasn't temporary.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:27 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
SayianBeyondGod wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Easy. Pure strength, GoD Toppo is the strongest.

SS2 Kefla is much stronger than even SSB/KK Goku, whom SSBE Vegeta is equal to.

In terms of ability to hit above their paygrade, Vegeta takes the cake with his Final Explosion and family-oriented power bursts.
That doesn't make sense, even SSBKK Goku at this point is stronger and stronger than SSJ2 Kefla . In episode 122 Jiren was stated to have the strongest ki Vegeta had felt even when watching the fight with Kefla and Goku after Toppo left. Later in episode 123 Goku claims that the new powered up Jiren with a simple punch was the hardest Goku had felt which also implies this Jiren is stronger than even SSJ2 Kefla.
Vegeta was specifically referring to people he faced, he also said Jiren wasn't using as much power as he was against Goku which would mean the level Jiren used against him was inferior to even the first UIO, let alone the far superior second one which Kefla faced. And Goku never got hit by SSJ2 Kefla so saying Jiren had the hardest punch he felt means nothing.
Vegeta was spectating SSJ2 Kefla vs UI Goku after Toppo ran from the fight, he would've sensed their ki like earlier in the fight. The 2nd use of omen was inferior to the first in terms of power due to being more fatigue and not having the power of the spirit bomb absorbed, not that it means the first use have better movements which was something the 2nd use improved upon. That's why the 2nd use had issue with offensive while the first didn't. If not you can argue Vegeta was refering to Blue Goku as I saw some argue that. UI Omen Goku got hit be Kefla beams when she was in her rage boost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:39 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Nevaeh wrote:Goku couldn't sense god ki but could still tell Beerus > Vegetto
Not in the manga he doesn't.
Oh I know

If movie/anime SSG > Vegetto is agreed upon because Goku said so why should Krillin's statement be treated any different?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:46 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:With regards to Vegeta, the showrunners have pretty much stated that SSBE is Vegeta's equivalent to SSB/KK that Goku possesses, whom was only potentially stronger than or equal to SS Kefla. And THEN she went SS2.

Meanwhile, before his little pride-family-rage boost, Vegeta was getting beaten pretty badly by Toppo, which makes sense given he just ascended to the same realm as the Gods of Destruction. Even after that, Vegeta STILL needed the Final Explosion, a move which hits beyond the user's ordinary level as demonstrated against Majin Buu, to knock Toppo and his Hakai Energy out; Toppo was merely knocked out of his God of Destruction form unconscious, rather than blown apart like Majin Buu, showing that the difference is still large in terms of pure power levels between Vegeta and Toppo.

After his bout with Toppo, Vegeta returns to a "normal" power level rather than an inflated "in-the-moment" one.
Oh you mean the director of 131, that's not credible enough to overwrite feats of the show especially when that director was only involved with one episode the entire arc and it didn't even featured SSBE Vegeta to begin with. So explain the credibility of the statement. If we go by the route of logic Gohan>=17 as that's what Toshio stated in twitter. I'm pretty sure she was referring to x20 SSBKK Goku not regular as that's what Goku used against SSJ Kefla even when fatigue he was overpowering until he wasted he last move in which she kicked a more drain Goku. Not to mention Goku go stronger later in the ToP and was affecting and pushing a Jiren that was the most powered up than prior in the ToP and with simple punches was giving Goku the hardest hit he had felt.

What Vegeta used wasn't a raged boost but more so a zenkai or power up, this scene was referenced and compared to Gohan, Cabba ands Kefla breaking their limits(none are temporally rage boost). This isn't that different when UI Goku got faster and better while fighting Jiren in episode 130. Even after that he wasn't already overpowering Toppo with it, as Toppo was being overwhelmed by strikes and was getting his hakai destroyed even when Blemod asked him to use greater power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:29 am

I know comparing the power scaling from the anime to the manga becomes more and meaningless as the months go on but is there some way of comparing Dyspo's fights so we can scale Super Saiyan God Goku, Ultimate Gohan and Android 17?

In the anime he clearly has an advantage over Super Saiyan God Goku but in the manga even though it wasn't shown he would seem to be at a disadvantage against Android 17.

Would that be enough to say Android 17 > Super Saiyan God Goku? Not necessarily because of how the two are different but it could be that way.

When Dyspo was stripped of using his super speed, Gohan seemed to have an advantage. Meanwhile Golden Frieza had a big advantage over Dyspo when he was using the super speed. So Ultimate Gohan perhaps shouldn't be Blue level?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Android 17 > Dyspo with his Super Speed > Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo without his Super Speed.

Perhaps something like that if you mix and match the anime and manga, don't know where Super Saiyan God would fit exactly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:50 am

Bullza wrote:I know comparing the power scaling from the anime to the manga becomes more and meaningless as the months go on but is there some way of comparing Dyspo's fights so we can scale Super Saiyan God Goku, Ultimate Gohan and Android 17?
In the anime he clearly has an advantage over Super Saiyan God Goku but in the manga even though it wasn't shown he would seem to be at a disadvantage against Android 17.
Would that be enough to say Android 17 > Super Saiyan God Goku? Not necessarily because of how the two are different but it could be that way.
When Dyspo was stripped of using his super speed, Gohan seemed to have an advantage. Meanwhile Golden Frieza had a big advantage over Dyspo when he was using the super speed. So Ultimate Gohan perhaps shouldn't be Blue level?
Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Android 17 > Dyspo with his Super Speed > Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo without his Super Speed.
Perhaps something like that if you mix and match the anime and manga, don't know where Super Saiyan God would fit exactly.
Dypso didn't have super max light speed mode in the manga, so I would count everything Dyspo did in the manga as base anime Dyspo level. I don't think there is enough info to put 17 above SSG Goku in the manga though. This is what we know in the manga
ssj2 Goku<Dyspo
ssj3 Goku<=17
Dyspo<=17
So 17 and Dyspo could be in the SSG range in the manga, but if they are I would say just barely. I would personally put them lower and more close to ssj3. And I think manga Gohan is above manga 17, but anime Gohan is below anime 17.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:30 pm

Yeah well Maximum Light Speed Mode Dyspo was kicking Golden Frieza around so in the manga he's probably just like how he is otherwise.

Golden Frieza is far above Android 17 and Dyspo, Android 17 would seem to be at least on par with Dyspo in the manga. He did put up a fight against a holding back Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he could be above Super Saiyan God especially as Dyspo appeared to be.

Ultimate Gohan probably seems the least impressive at least going by the anime, I can't say who is stronger out of him and Android 17.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:40 pm

Bullza wrote:Yeah well Maximum Light Speed Mode Dyspo was kicking Golden Frieza around so in the manga he's probably just like how he is otherwise.

Golden Frieza is far above Android 17 and Dyspo, Android 17 would seem to be at least on par with Dyspo in the manga. He did put up a fight against a holding back Super Saiyan Blue Goku so he could be above Super Saiyan God especially as Dyspo appeared to be.

Ultimate Gohan probably seems the least impressive at least going by the anime, I can't say who is stronger out of him and Android 17.
That's why I usually put 17 and Gohan around equal; it's just 17 can use his full power without restraint or stamina loss AND uses it better.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:44 pm

I wouldn't try to connect the anime and manga when it comes to scaling whatsoever.


Anime dyspo without SLSM was completely overwhelming SSG Goku in terms of speed, all we've seen from manga dyspo is that ssj2 goku can't keep up with him.

Anime 17 was also holding back vs SSB Goku, and his feats vs Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren would put him atleast low SSB Tier whereas manga 17 has only shown power that scares ssj3 goku.

There's so many differences between both that i wouldn't even attempt to try and connect them outside of a few characters.

For example. Manga kale would knock out Manga F Trunks in one hit, Anime F Trunks would probably handle Anime Kale with low diff

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:10 pm

Well that could still fit, if Dyspo is shown to be superior to Super Saiyan Goku then he conceivably could be superior to Super Saiyan God. If Android 17 is shown to be superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku then he could be as as well.

In that regard it could be the same between both versions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:54 pm

Bullza wrote:Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.
Ultimate Gohan is blue level and some. In the manga he was able to fight a fusion made of a character who is blue level and in the anime he made Goku use Blue KK to beat him.

As for Beerus, really guys, I would leave him alone. He is protected by the story. Toriyama himself has said he keeps Beerus around cause it gives Goku and Vegeta a future.
Toriyama also stated he has no plans of Beerus being surpassed by Goku shortly before the future Trunks arc. In order for Beerus to be surpassed, it will be explicitly shown, due to Goku's "destined" battle with him.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:20 pm

Miracles wrote:Ultimate Gohan is blue level and some. In the manga he was able to fight a fusion made of a character who is blue level and in the anime he made Goku use Blue KK to beat him.
His fight with Goku isn't really the best indication considering Super Saiyan Blue Goku has fought everyone from Krillin to Merged Zamasu.

In the manga, when Krillin was watching Gohan fight Goku he said he wondered if he could surpass him if he were to train more so he wouldn't be as strong as Goku there.

Little more unclear in the anime but Toppo wasn't damaged at all by Gohan's Kamehameha but he was by Goku's in the Zen Exhibition. He also wasn't that far above Dyspo whereas Golden Frieza was even faster than him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:40 pm

Miracles wrote:
Bullza wrote:Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.
Ultimate Gohan is blue level and some. In the manga he was able to fight a fusion made of a character who is blue level and in the anime he made Goku use Blue KK to beat him.

As for Beerus, really guys, I would leave him alone. He is protected by the story. Toriyama himself has said he keeps Beerus around cause it gives Goku and Vegeta a future.
Toriyama also stated he has no plans of Beerus being surpassed by Goku shortly before the future Trunks arc. In order for Beerus to be surpassed, it will be explicitly shown, due to Goku's "destined" battle with him.
Gohan in the anime is on the level of SSB but still weaker. he still isnt "SSB level and then some." Otherwise Toppo wouldnt have easily tanked his KHH with no damage. Goku just used KK for dramatic affect.

manga Gohan is irrationally, ridiculously strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Bullza wrote:Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.
Ultimate Gohan is blue level and some. In the manga he was able to fight a fusion made of a character who is blue level and in the anime he made Goku use Blue KK to beat him.

As for Beerus, really guys, I would leave him alone. He is protected by the story. Toriyama himself has said he keeps Beerus around cause it gives Goku and Vegeta a future.
Toriyama also stated he has no plans of Beerus being surpassed by Goku shortly before the future Trunks arc. In order for Beerus to be surpassed, it will be explicitly shown, due to Goku's "destined" battle with him.
Gohan in the anime is on the level of SSB but still weaker. he still isnt "SSB level and then some." Otherwise Toppo wouldnt have easily tanked his KHH with no damage. Goku just used KK for dramatic affect.

manga Gohan is irrationally, ridiculously strong.
Gohan in the manga is also slightly weaker than SSB Goku.
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