Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:42 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Oh yes it was. The rumour was mentioned specifically in reference to Beerus when Whis told Goku about the possibility in preparation for the Tournament of Power.

Whis said that there was a rumour of a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat, and that God of Destruction is stronger than Beerus. Beerus then immediately responds with his arm-wrestling comment.
The arm wrestling comment by Beerus and Whis's mortal and god statement was general and not specific. So you are factually wrong again.
Nope. Check the dialogue again from episode 93. Whis specifies after mentioning the rumour that that mortal's God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus.
Incorrect again. "That god" was a general statement. No names were dropped previously cause Whis didn't know specifics until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:57 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: The arm wrestling comment by Beerus and Whis's mortal and god statement was general and not specific. So you are factually wrong again.
Nope. Check the dialogue again from episode 93. Whis specifies after mentioning the rumour that that mortal's God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus.
Incorrect again. "That god" was a general statement. No names were dropped previously cause Whis didn't know specifics until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general.
He was referring to a rumor about a mortal, and a specific GoD that Whis knew had beaten Beerus in an arm wrestling match, and who he recognized as stronger than Beerus. We didnt know at the time, but it was very explicit about the pair being revealed to be Belmod and Jiren later on. Therefore:

Jiren>Belmod>Beerus

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:58 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: The arm wrestling comment by Beerus and Whis's mortal and god statement was general and not specific. So you are factually wrong again.
Nope. Check the dialogue again from episode 93. Whis specifies after mentioning the rumour that that mortal's God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus.
Incorrect again. "That god" was a general statement. No names were dropped previously cause Whis didn't know specifics until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general.
English grammar dictates that the following subject is related to the previous sentence through the use of "and that god". As well, Beerus's anecdote would logically have to be a specific inference based on Whis's comment given how it refers to a specific event in the past; people don't go making arm-wrestling comments out of thin air.

Names don't have to be used when the basic grammatical structure makes it obvious.

Seriously dude, incorrectly using the sub grammar? I'm taking a college English writing course, that's not gonna work. Now, if it were the original Japanese you were working with, THEN you might have ground to stand on. But since we're going off of the Crunchyroll subs, I'm gonna use the proper grammatical rules.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:04 pm

Jiren is being weaker than Beerus would basically nullify the purpose of the character entirely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:07 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Nope. Check the dialogue again from episode 93. Whis specifies after mentioning the rumour that that mortal's God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus.
Incorrect again. "That god" was a general statement. No names were dropped previously cause Whis didn't know specifics until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general.
He was referring to a rumor about a mortal, and a specific GoD that Whis knew had beaten Beerus in an arm wrestling match, and who he recognized as stronger than Beerus. We didnt know at the time, but it was very explicit about the pair being revealed to be Belmod and Jiren later on. Therefore:

Jiren>Belmod>Beerus
Wrong. Whis didn't even know the universe with the mortal and god until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general, speaking in terms of his whole career. These are the story facts.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Nope. Check the dialogue again from episode 93. Whis specifies after mentioning the rumour that that mortal's God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus.
Incorrect again. "That god" was a general statement. No names were dropped previously cause Whis didn't know specifics until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general.
English grammar dictates that the following subject is related to the previous sentence through the use of "and that god". As well, Beerus's anecdote would logically have to be a specific inference based on Whis's comment given how it refers to a specific event in the past; people don't go making arm-wrestling comments out of thin air.

Names don't have to be used when the basic grammatical structure makes it obvious.

Seriously dude, incorrectly using the sub grammar? I'm taking a college English writing course, that's not gonna work. Now, if it were the original Japanese you were working with, THEN you might have ground to stand on. But since we're going off of the Crunchyroll subs, I'm gonna use the proper grammatical rules.
I didn't say "that god" doesn't relate to the mortal being stronger than "a god." I'm telling you the entire statement was general and non specific. PROVEN in the TOP when Whis found out who.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:33 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: Incorrect again. "That god" was a general statement. No names were dropped previously cause Whis didn't know specifics until the TOP. Even Beerus arm wrestling comment was general.
English grammar dictates that the following subject is related to the previous sentence through the use of "and that god". As well, Beerus's anecdote would logically have to be a specific inference based on Whis's comment given how it refers to a specific event in the past; people don't go making arm-wrestling comments out of thin air.

Names don't have to be used when the basic grammatical structure makes it obvious.

Seriously dude, incorrectly using the sub grammar? I'm taking a college English writing course, that's not gonna work. Now, if it were the original Japanese you were working with, THEN you might have ground to stand on. But since we're going off of the Crunchyroll subs, I'm gonna use the proper grammatical rules.
I didn't say "that god" doesn't relate to the mortal being stronger than "a god." I'm telling you the entire statement was general and non specific. PROVEN in the TOP when Whis found out who.
"And that god" also means a specific inference in English grammar because of the phrasing, as does Beerus making his rebuttal with a reference to a past event involving arm-wrestling. If Whis had talked about the rumour in isolation without the arm-wrestling rebuke, it would've actually made sense with your take. But because Beerus made a specific inference in response, it linked the two ideas as an actual related set of events; Beerus invalidates your take on its generality by invoking a specific reference that is directly linked to Whis's comment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:50 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: English grammar dictates that the following subject is related to the previous sentence through the use of "and that god". As well, Beerus's anecdote would logically have to be a specific inference based on Whis's comment given how it refers to a specific event in the past; people don't go making arm-wrestling comments out of thin air.

Names don't have to be used when the basic grammatical structure makes it obvious.

Seriously dude, incorrectly using the sub grammar? I'm taking a college English writing course, that's not gonna work. Now, if it were the original Japanese you were working with, THEN you might have ground to stand on. But since we're going off of the Crunchyroll subs, I'm gonna use the proper grammatical rules.
I didn't say "that god" doesn't relate to the mortal being stronger than "a god." I'm telling you the entire statement was general and non specific. PROVEN in the TOP when Whis found out who.
"And that god" also means a specific inference in English grammar because of the phrasing, as does Beerus making his rebuttal with a reference to a past event involving arm-wrestling. If Whis had talked about the rumour in isolation without the arm-wrestling rebuke, it would've actually made sense with your take. But because Beerus made a specific inference in response, it linked the two ideas as an actual related set of events; Beerus invalidates your take on its generality by invoking a specific reference that is directly linked to Whis's comment.
No, that god is referring to Whis's general statement which specifies a general mortal surpassing an unknown god.
Hence why the context states Whis not knowing much about the universes. This is why Whis only finds out when Jiren displays his power during the TOP and never before.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:18 pm

Miracles wrote:
No, that god is referring to Whis's general statement which specifies a general mortal surpassing an unknown god.
Hence why the context states Whis not knowing much about the universes. This is why Whis only finds out when Jiren displays his power during the TOP and never before.
Did you miss the part where Beerus's own comment negates the generality of it? Beerus never disputes the notion of the God of Destruction that cannot defeat this rumoured mortal in general; he disputes it SPECIFICALLY by making a reference to a past event involving arm-wrestling, thus meaning that he knows the God of Destruction that Whis is talking about. As well, Whis relates the rumour to Beerus specifically, meaning he more than likely knew just as well as Beerus of the God of Destruction of rumour, since that very same god beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match.

As well, Whis very facetiously mentions his "lack" of knowledge on the other Universes; it's a facetious display bellying the fact that Whis is actually VERY knowledgeable on everything, including the other Universes.

There's no way around it. The grammar and context clues paint a clear and concise picture: Whis mentions a rumour of a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that this specific god, whom Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with, was stronger than Beerus. Beerus adds to Whis's comment by making it obvious that it's not a general god Whis is referring to, but in fact a specific one that Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:26 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
No, that god is referring to Whis's general statement which specifies a general mortal surpassing an unknown god.
Hence why the context states Whis not knowing much about the universes. This is why Whis only finds out when Jiren displays his power during the TOP and never before.
Did you miss the part where Beerus's own comment negates the generality of it? Beerus never disputes the notion of the God of Destruction that cannot defeat this rumoured mortal in general; he disputes it SPECIFICALLY by making a reference to a past event involving arm-wrestling, thus meaning that he knows the God of Destruction that Whis is talking about. As well, Whis relates the rumour to Beerus specifically, meaning he more than likely knew just as well as Beerus of the God of Destruction of rumour, since that very same god beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match.

As well, Whis very facetiously mentions his "lack" of knowledge on the other Universes; it's a facetious display bellying the fact that Whis is actually VERY knowledgeable on everything, including the other Universes.

There's no way around it. The grammar and context clues paint a clear and concise picture: Whis mentions a rumour of a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that this specific god, whom Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with, was stronger than Beerus. Beerus adds to Whis's comment by making it obvious that it's not a general god Whis is referring to, but in fact a specific one that Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with.
Beerus comment doesn't negate Whis generality but Beerus remark totally shoots down Whis false generality [THAT god] about anyone being stronger than him in combat. Whis only find out about the mortal and god in the TOP. So how in God's green earth is he going to know which god Beerus is talking about then? He never confirmed that part in the TOP so he was proven wrong by Beerus.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:38 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
No, that god is referring to Whis's general statement which specifies a general mortal surpassing an unknown god.
Hence why the context states Whis not knowing much about the universes. This is why Whis only finds out when Jiren displays his power during the TOP and never before.
Did you miss the part where Beerus's own comment negates the generality of it? Beerus never disputes the notion of the God of Destruction that cannot defeat this rumoured mortal in general; he disputes it SPECIFICALLY by making a reference to a past event involving arm-wrestling, thus meaning that he knows the God of Destruction that Whis is talking about. As well, Whis relates the rumour to Beerus specifically, meaning he more than likely knew just as well as Beerus of the God of Destruction of rumour, since that very same god beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match.

As well, Whis very facetiously mentions his "lack" of knowledge on the other Universes; it's a facetious display bellying the fact that Whis is actually VERY knowledgeable on everything, including the other Universes.

There's no way around it. The grammar and context clues paint a clear and concise picture: Whis mentions a rumour of a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that this specific god, whom Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with, was stronger than Beerus. Beerus adds to Whis's comment by making it obvious that it's not a general god Whis is referring to, but in fact a specific one that Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with.
Beerus comment doesn't negate Whis generality but Beerus remark totally shoots down Whis false generality [THAT god] about anyone being stronger than him in combat. Whis only find out about the mortal and god in the TOP. So how in God's green earth is he going to know which god Beerus is talking about then? He never confirmed that part in the TOP so he was proven wrong by Beerus.
The rumour is about a MORTAL, and Beerus only ever mentions knowing the GOD with his rebuttal. Whis never makes mention of not knowing the god, and in fact his dialogue indicates he does indeed know the one the rumour involves since he relates it directly to Beerus. Beerus rebukes him on the matter of an arm-wrestling match, something Whis would supervise since he's always with Beerus and must step in to prevent a fight between Gods of Destruction should the possibility occur.

Whis confirms the MORTAL part of the rumour by observing Jiren. You're grasping at non-existent straws here, reading the dialogue subtitle grammar wrong and trying to pass it off as factual. Bring up something from the original Japanese, then you'll have something to go on with regards to debating the dialogue. Right now, though, you're not making sense in the English language department.

The context and subtitle clues make it clear that Jiren is one who may have surpassed even the level of God of Destruction in his normal state, and assuredly did so once he awakened his hidden power

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:30 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Did you miss the part where Beerus's own comment negates the generality of it? Beerus never disputes the notion of the God of Destruction that cannot defeat this rumoured mortal in general; he disputes it SPECIFICALLY by making a reference to a past event involving arm-wrestling, thus meaning that he knows the God of Destruction that Whis is talking about. As well, Whis relates the rumour to Beerus specifically, meaning he more than likely knew just as well as Beerus of the God of Destruction of rumour, since that very same god beat Beerus in an arm-wrestling match.

As well, Whis very facetiously mentions his "lack" of knowledge on the other Universes; it's a facetious display bellying the fact that Whis is actually VERY knowledgeable on everything, including the other Universes.

There's no way around it. The grammar and context clues paint a clear and concise picture: Whis mentions a rumour of a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that this specific god, whom Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with, was stronger than Beerus. Beerus adds to Whis's comment by making it obvious that it's not a general god Whis is referring to, but in fact a specific one that Beerus had an arm-wrestling match with.
Beerus comment doesn't negate Whis generality but Beerus remark totally shoots down Whis false generality [THAT god] about anyone being stronger than him in combat. Whis only find out about the mortal and god in the TOP. So how in God's green earth is he going to know which god Beerus is talking about then? He never confirmed that part in the TOP so he was proven wrong by Beerus.
The rumour is about a MORTAL, and Beerus only ever mentions knowing the GOD with his rebuttal. Whis never makes mention of not knowing the god, and in fact his dialogue indicates he does indeed know the one the rumour involves since he relates it directly to Beerus. Beerus rebukes him on the matter of an arm-wrestling match, something Whis would supervise since he's always with Beerus and must step in to prevent a fight between Gods of Destruction should the possibility occur.

Whis confirms the MORTAL part of the rumour by observing Jiren. You're grasping at non-existent straws here, reading the dialogue subtitle grammar wrong and trying to pass it off as factual. Bring up something from the original Japanese, then you'll have something to go on with regards to debating the dialogue. Right now, though, you're not making sense in the English language department.

The context and subtitle clues make it clear that Jiren is one who may have surpassed even the level of God of Destruction in his normal state, and assuredly did so once he awakened his hidden power
Beerus doesn't ever confirm if he was talking about a certain god Whis was referencing. The TOP confirmation proves Whis didn't know which universe therefore was being random about Beerus as well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:42 pm

Yeah, if there was any doubt before, this latest trailer should clear all. broly would destroy beerus and jiren

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:56 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Yeah, if there was any doubt before, this latest trailer should clear all. broly would destroy beerus and jiren
I'm not seeing it.

His rage form can stand up to SSB at most, then his Super Saiyan form can take on Goku AND Vegeta, then his full-power state is presumably way stronger.

Beerus and Jiren are on the level of SSB Vegito or above, a factor of SSB multiplied by VEGITO.

[EDIT]:
To be clear, I don't dispute the idea of this being true. Classic DB villain progression is almost always like this. It's just that nothing in the trailer sold me on this being the case. SSB Goku and Vegeta can still somewhat take on Broly, but Jiren required Kaioken, Evolution, and Ultra Instinct to keep up; not even keep up with the former two.
Last edited by PerhapsTheOtherOne on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:03 pm

Broly was already stated as beyond anything ever faced by goku and co in promotional material. so that automatically puts him above jiren. He was also questioned about having power beyond god of destruction. So theres that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:06 pm

Promotion mats is not a reliable source

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:37 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Yeah, if there was any doubt before, this latest trailer should clear all. broly would destroy beerus and jiren
By fighting SSB Goku and Vegeta?

Statements say he's in their realm but these trailers don't show it

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:52 pm

Nevaeh wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Yeah, if there was any doubt before, this latest trailer should clear all. broly would destroy beerus and jiren
By fighting SSB Goku and Vegeta?

Statements say he's in their realm but these trailers don't show it

He wrecked them in BASE. I rewatched the trailer , when god veget punched him, he wasn’t in ikari, his hair wasn’t spiked.

Now imagine ss full power.

His base feats are literally potara fusion esque

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:29 pm

Just based off of the trailers they've shown nothing to suggest Broly is above Beerus or Jiren. He's done nothing that either of them couldn't do.

In fact if he's defeated by Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta then by all rights he shouldn't be anywhere close to those. Ultra Instinct needs to come in to play somewhere for him to be above those two.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:35 pm

Bullza wrote:Just based off of the trailers they've shown nothing to suggest Broly is above Beerus or Jiren. He's done nothing that either of them couldn't do.

In fact if he's defeated by Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta then by all rights he shouldn't be anywhere close to those. Ultra Instinct needs to come in to play somewhere for him to be above those two.

Lol what? SSB Gogeta would be ridiculously powerful, just cause Toei made Vegito unimpressive in the Black arc and thats not a shocker considering how awful heroes is with its scaling, doesn't mean in TORIYAMA's continuity, blue gogeta wouldn't be utterly ridiculous

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:06 am

So I want to make sure I understand some things ... Broly basically has a Base form that is hilariously stronger than Goku, Vegeta, or any other Saiyan's Base form. Right?

Goku and Vegeta have found very advanced transformations. Broly uses more basic transformations. Broly uses SS1 and LSS, which are more basic than SS2 and SS3. Right?

Considering Kale has LSS and Caulifla has SS2 and were astounded by Goku's SS3, it makes me think the U6 Saiyan forms were less advanced than Goku's SS3. Right?

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