Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:33 pm

Son-Kakaroto wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: Nice rebuttal there, mate... :|
The dude is right, ssj god most impressive feat was against berrus in bog arc (in the anime), and since then ssj god hasn't done anything special in terms of winning a fight by itself. However, it is still an impressive form in the manga and is involved in key plot points, even if it's not kicking the butt of the strongest dude on the show.
Bruh

SSG was actually the main form in the BoG arc rather than God-Absorbed SSJ1. This isn't a direct win, but SSG gets the feat of providing Beerus with a challenge and is able to stay relevant because it wasn't surpassed by the regular Super Saiyan forms.

SSG is treated as Goku's ace up the sleeve when he fights Hit. Without Goku's strategic use of this form he wouldn't have been able to create an opening for when he switched to Blue.

In the FT arc Vegeta uses SSG to beat Black. Yes, he switches between SSG and SSB, but this is a tactic that simply COULD NOT have been done without SSG. It's really arbitrary trying to argue which form deserves the credit for this fight. SSG Goku and Vegeta vs Zamas and Black was meant to be a last Hurrah for SSG before Blue was completed and became Goku's only main form.

Now compare this to the anime where SSG was forgot about for something like 80 episodes until it magically appeared again even though that makes no sense because SS1 is said to be greater than SSG.
Relax on your anime derangement syndrome. Just because I am not praising the manga does not mean I am secretly trying to hype up the anime. I never brought up the anime use of ssj god compared to the manga's. I just stated the importance of ssj god in the manga, while admitting that the best showing of ssj god in general happened in the tv show. Nuff said.
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not even hating on the anime. The anime shoehorned in SSG like the manga shoehorned in Kaioken and SSBE(not exactly the same things in the manga, but the intention is clear).

The point of my argument is that SSG may not have won a million fights, but it had legitimate plot relevance and it was used tactically, thus making it a worthwhile inclusion.

But I guess I'm deranged. Nice one, mate.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:41 pm

Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
Yakon never touched Goku yet Goku inflicted damage to Yakon while in base. Also, Gohan said that Goku would be fine fighting Yakon before he transformed. Also, Gohan said that if he and Goku teamed up against Yakon then they could beat him and no one would have to transform.

Do you want more evidence. You say Goku only transformed because he had to, but then why did Goku use SS2 when he was already massively more powerful than Yakon in SS1.

Also, why couldn't Yakon hit Goku if he was over 13 times stronger than Goku according to standard multipliers.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:43 pm

Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
....except for the purposes of beating Yakon by virtue of making him overload with light that he was eating from Goku. He originally used it to light up the place because he couldn't see Yakon, and then he used it again as a strategy to overload Yakon with light. His use of SSJ has little to do with being at a power disadvantage

There's nothing consistent about the scene power scaling wise nor huge chunks of the Buu arc in general. Babidi also gives a ki level for being able to blow up a planet that would imply that SSJ Goku is only a couple times stronger than being a planet buster which is completely asinine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:45 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
Yakon never touched Goku yet Goku inflicted damage to Yakon while in base. Also, Gohan said that Goku would be fine fighting Yakon before he transformed. Also, Gohan said that if he and Goku teamed up against Yakon then they could beat him and no one would have to transform.

Do you want more evidence. You say Goku only transformed because he had to, but then why did Goku use SS2 when he was already massively more powerful than Yakon in SS1.

Also, why couldn't Yakon hit Goku if he was over 13 times stronger than Goku according to standard multipliers.
That's fair, but you're still assuming Kiri function the same as scouter battle power readings.
PFM18 wrote:Babidi also gives a ki level for being able to blow up a planet that would imply that SSJ Goku is only a couple times stronger than being a planet buster which is completely asinine
That's anime filler.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:18 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
Yakon never touched Goku yet Goku inflicted damage to Yakon while in base. Also, Gohan said that Goku would be fine fighting Yakon before he transformed. Also, Gohan said that if he and Goku teamed up against Yakon then they could beat him and no one would have to transform.

Do you want more evidence. You say Goku only transformed because he had to, but then why did Goku use SS2 when he was already massively more powerful than Yakon in SS1.

Also, why couldn't Yakon hit Goku if he was over 13 times stronger than Goku according to standard multipliers.
That's fair, but you're still assuming Kiri function the same as scouter battle power readings.
PFM18 wrote:Babidi also gives a ki level for being able to blow up a planet that would imply that SSJ Goku is only a couple times stronger than being a planet buster which is completely asinine
That's anime filler.
Don't a lot of the handbooks say the forms multiply power and not power level specifically, especially for SS2 and SS3? I don't see why the unit of power would matter.

I think this just goes to show that the numbers and the multipliers are arbitrary and that DB fans need to stop acting like Super Saiyan = 50*Base is the fundamental law of the Dragon World that should never be argued or questioned.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Doctor. wrote:That's fair, but you're still assuming Kiri function the same as scouter battle power readings.
The only assumption needed is that the scale of this Kiri is still linear and not exponential or logarithmic. Because multiplication is multiplication. That is about as much of a given as there is.

The scene does contradict multipliers as we know, but things are contradicted all the time in single one-off instances that I don't feel like really need to change the fabric of how we rationalize things for the entire rest of the series.
That's anime filler.
Oh, my bad.
Lord Beerus wrote: We're not allowed to bring that up. It would ruin so many battle power calculations for several people.
We aren't allowed to bring it up because we mustn't ever bring up any power scaling inconsistencies in the original series! Strictly prohibited! Modern Dragon Ball is the first to start doing that!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:31 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Bruh

SSG was actually the main form in the BoG arc rather than God-Absorbed SSJ1. This isn't a direct win, but SSG gets the feat of providing Beerus with a challenge and is able to stay relevant because it wasn't surpassed by the regular Super Saiyan forms.

SSG is treated as Goku's ace up the sleeve when he fights Hit. Without Goku's strategic use of this form he wouldn't have been able to create an opening for when he switched to Blue.

In the FT arc Vegeta uses SSG to beat Black. Yes, he switches between SSG and SSB, but this is a tactic that simply COULD NOT have been done without SSG. It's really arbitrary trying to argue which form deserves the credit for this fight. SSG Goku and Vegeta vs Zamas and Black was meant to be a last Hurrah for SSG before Blue was completed and became Goku's only main form.

Now compare this to the anime where SSG was forgot about for something like 80 episodes until it magically appeared again even though that makes no sense because SS1 is said to be greater than SSG.
Relax on your anime derangement syndrome. Just because I am not praising the manga does not mean I am secretly trying to hype up the anime. I never brought up the anime use of ssj god compared to the manga's. I just stated the importance of ssj god in the manga, while admitting that the best showing of ssj god in general happened in the tv show. Nuff said.
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not even hating on the anime. The anime shoehorned in SSG like the manga shoehorned in Kaioken and SSBE(not exactly the same things in the manga, but the intention is clear).

The point of my argument is that SSG may not have won a million fights, but it had legitimate plot relevance and it was used tactically, thus making it a worthwhile inclusion.

But I guess I'm deranged. Nice one, mate.
lol, touche. Yep, I agree about the significance of ssj god in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:07 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:How strong is SSJ4 Goku in relation to the Super characters? Would he even make into the Top of Super characters? Who is the strongest he could? Also, what about SSJ4 Gogeta?
in the arcade of Super DB Heroes, Goku:Xeno(who is supposed to be at least as strong as end-of-GT Goku) in SS4 was a little weaker than post-ToP Goku in Blue(no Kaiohken)

That's basically the only element of comparison we have.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:05 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Summary for the Chapter 42 is out.

Goku notes that #17 is just about as strong as him despite not doing much of anything (Imply #17 never really trained)
So much for manga 17 being only SS3 level. I've been hearing this for the past months, and I never could agree with that statement.
Don't know where anyone got 17 being SS3 strength (not specifically pointing at you), but even before this chapter was leaked, 17's mini fight with SS3 Goku was 17 not even using his full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:28 pm

When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:33 pm

Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
He's speaking in general terms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:05 pm

I think in general in the ToP arc

Goku>Vegeta>Frieza=17=Gohan
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:08 pm

Bergamo wrote:I think in general in the ToP arc

Goku>Vegeta>Frieza=17=Gohan
Yeah, that sounds about right.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I think in general in the ToP arc

Goku>Vegeta>Frieza=17=Gohan
Yeah, that sounds about right.
I really don't like how strong Gohan and 17 are, but it's impossible to deny.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:23 pm

Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:28 am

Man with 17's potential perhaps we could dive into 18's as well. It'd be really cool if

"HOUSE WIFE"

But...she'd be really cool to see develop...especially alongside Krillin and...

"HOUSE.....WIFE...."

Shit....


Well pray that Kale and Caulifla don't become house wives...
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:44 am

dbzfan7 wrote:Man with 17's potential perhaps we could dive into 18's as well. It'd be really cool if

"HOUSE WIFE"

But...she'd be really cool to see develop...especially alongside Krillin and...

"HOUSE.....WIFE...."

Shit....


Well pray that Kale and Caulifla don't become house wives...
At least the anime tried to do some things with 18 and it can be argued that she got stronger there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:53 am

Miracles wrote:
Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."
Well we still saw him in the recruitment period being SSJ3 level and everybody apparently praised the manga for it, and now we just kind of inconspicuously find out that he actually isn't SSJ3 level, but rather CSSB level because reasons.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:02 am

Bergamo wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I think in general in the ToP arc

Goku>Vegeta>Frieza=17=Gohan
Yeah, that sounds about right.
I really don't like how strong Gohan and 17 are, but it's impossible to deny.
Gohan's strength is a huge mystery in the manga compared to other top tier fighter. And it mostly stems from how confusing Kefla's strength is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."
Well we still saw him in the recruitment period being SSJ3 level and everybody apparently praised the manga for it, and now we just kind of inconspicuously find out that he actually isn't SSJ3 level, but rather CSSB level because reasons.
The manga had 17 push SSJ3 back. A limit of power was never given to him in the manga until now.

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