Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:37 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:Base Vegeta travels several thousand kilometres in “5 seconds” in the latest chapter. It appears to be more like 2-3 seconds, since Goku pretty much readied his teleport, and only got a line in saying “what’re you guys doing with Buu” before Vegeta got there. Even though it’s not a great feat, it’s still a time frame that shits on Gohans 1000km in 20 minutes in the Buu arc.
So Vegeta was very likely travelling at 10,000+ times the speed of sound at a bare minimum. Not fantastic at this stage, but I guess it’s a time frame for the manga base Saiyans casual-ish speed.

Even so, there’s no precise distance between Satan City, and West City ever given. All we really know is that the Son family house is in the same section of the DB map, and West City is way further out. This information is based on a geographical map of the DB world.
SS Gotenks literally traveled around the entire earth multiple times in less than 30 minutes and he's way weaker than ultimate Gohan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:45 am

Bergamo wrote: SS Gotenks literally traveled around the entire earth multiple times in less than 30 minutes and he's way weaker than ultimate Gohan.
Yep, he did. I wasn’t talking about Ultimate Gohan. The 1000km in 20 minutes was how long it took Base Gohan to fly to School.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:39 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:Yes, and the entire point of BoG surrounding Beerus was that he was on an entirely different level to anything shown prior. SSJG by extension fits this, and the whole dialogue supports it, and the feats of forcing Beerus to keep on powering up. SSJG with all the comments and feats against Beerus ends up meaning that the whole point surrounding SSJG was that it was above anything shown prior. Even if the stuff ruling out fusion wasn’t there, that would still be the point of SSJG due to the prophetic dream, and the fact that SSJG was pushing Beerus to the limits of his “true power”.
I feel like you're missing my point here, which is that SSG's whole power level in relation to Beerus (which is what all of its hype was based on) has been retconned.

As far as I'm concerned, there's two paths to take. Either SSG really is around 70% of Beerus's power as was stated in the film and a fun fight for him (which is the whole premise), or it's extremely weak relative to what we thought to the point that a not-any-stronger Ultimate Gohan is on par with it and base Potara fusions far exceed it. Either of those make sense in their own way. "It's way stronger than anything else but only 0.1% as strong as Beerus" on the other hand doesn't fit in any context.
There’s no way in hell that Vegetto would do anything when Goku ruled him out against a Beerus that was so heavily suppressed it wasn’t even funny.
Except, again, we know now that base Potara fusions and SS Metamoran fusions are above SSG, assuming they're building from the same people. This is completely factual by this point. So that line was retconned. As were the statements and visuals implying it pushed Beerus to close to his full power. Now that all of those things are out the door, SSG really has nothing going for it that would override its presentation from after the first two movies which suggest it's as strong as it's been made out to be by the fans.
Firstly, the manga arc was far too short to draw any conclusions. It was a briefing arc, simple as that.
A briefing arc that pointedly excluded several of BoG's power-relevant scenes, like Goku ruling out fusion and Goku absorbing SSG into his base.
Secondly, we don’t even know how fusion works, when looking at BoG we know that Vegetto wasn’t enough, later in the Zamasu arc in his base he was super strong, but instead of retconning the main point of SSJG in BoG, why not just looks at fusion and believe it works differently post god forms.
Because there's no reason to believe that and we already know 100% that SSG's power has been severely retconned in at least one sense? It honestly seems like the path of least resistance.
Gotenks now is s weakling in comparison, and in the anime base Goku and Vegeta can take his strongest form. In the original series Kibitoshin was fucking pathetic, Merged Zamasu was only intended to be stronger than a SSJB, but weaker than two, and Vegetto pre SSJG was too weak to fight against Beerus, but post SSJG in base he’s likely stronger than SSJB. Again, we don’t know fuck all about how fusion works, all we can try and do is headcanon crap, but I for one will utilise everything we have to make something reasonable as the one thing that becomes apparent is that we don’t have a clue on how fusion works.
You're exaggerating our lack of information. On Potara, as implied by Elder Kaioshin's statement about "rivals" and all of the Potara fusions we've seen, battle powers being close makes for stronger fusions. The Super anime throws in a statement about Kefla being tens of times stronger than Kale or Caulifla individually (which is also said about Gogeta in the GT Perfect Files, interestingly enough). On the matter of dance fusions, we're told in both the Super anime and in various guides that the result is "many times stronger" than the components. But we're never told nor is it even implied that there's an order as convoluted as "Base Gogeta > SS2 Vegeta + SS3 Goku". It doesn't even make any sense that base Vegetto's power would have anything to do with how many transformations Goku and Vegeta have. Especially since the whole "God power absorption" thing didn't even happen in the manga.
Also if you don’t buy the anime’s crazy ass powerscaling I take it you don’t have Caulifla as all that strong? So if the fusion for you only uses the base forms, when making up the fusion base form wouldn’t that mean that Kefla would probably end up a bit weaker than Gotenks?
Potara is far, far better than fusion. Also I don't think base Kale is as weak as she appears even in the anime, considering her SS2 form was stronger than Goku's.
We know from Gogeta in Broly that the fusion multipliers aren’t really any different from the Potara
We don't know that at all actually. And I personally believe that base Vegetto would easily beat SS3 Gogeta.
Again, maybe Vados expected her to have more power in reserve, but Krillins statement next chapter proved that Gohan was a ways off Goku.
This doesn't really have anything to do with either her statement or mine.
Kefla just wasn’t as strong as she should’ve been. Maybe Vados was anticipating a fusion at full power, and then her statement holds weight, but luckily her statement wasn’t said with uncertainty, which works fine if you believe that she was expecting Kefla to have more power in reserve, but she was weakened.
Vados never noted that Kefla was weaker than expected.

This is all sort of an unnecessary diversion. What should be undeniable from the manga's presentation, regardless of specifics, is that Gohan, Kale, and Kefla are relevant to the tier of the gods. As in, Vegeta couldn't just stand still and let them punch him in the face to no effect. As in, Piccolo said they needed Gohan's power to win the tournament before they set foot in the arena. And this is relevant because Gohan explicitly did not gain any power before walking into the tournament.
The whole hold seemed to be to do with how weakened Raditz was, he could have flew with Goku on him, but he didn’t. Raditz notes that Gohan injury to him as the reason why he’s stuck.
Goku was far more injured at that point than Raditz was, and we see the same thing happen with 16 and Cell. We saw it again in today's chapter with Goku and Jiren; Jiren can walk through Goku and Vegeta's combined supers like so much rain, yet Goku can still put him in a full nelson.
If the full nelson was truly that impressive Goku could’ve done that at the start instead of grabbing Raditz tail.
Actually putting someone in a full nelson, someone way faster than you and who can kill you easily, is harder than it looks. He never would have had a chance.
On to the next point... Dyspo was a joke, 17 just toyed with him it seems. 17 with his infinite power was dragging a fight out with a Dyspo that couldn’t even jump back to the arena when he went to Toppo.
No evidence of toying on his part. It wouldn't even make any sense because 17 doesn't want to be there and is relieved when the tournament is over.

Thinking about it more I actually think that Dyspo and Toppo's problem is that someone would swat them if they tried to make a long jump back. Which explains why they thought Jiren should bring them back in.
He was strong enough to lose to Goku, but give him a hell of a beating in the process just prior to the ToP
We don't know how that fight unfolded at all.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:11 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:Even though it’s not a great feat, it’s still a time frame that shits on Gohans 1000km in 20 minutes in the Buu arc.
Goku's 48-hour return down the million-kilometer Serpent Road way back in the Saiyan arc (about 20,800 km/h not counting any breaks) shits all over Gohan's 3,000 km/h from the Buu arc. Best not to pay attention to any of Toriyama's numbers.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:45 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:Even though it’s not a great feat, it’s still a time frame that shits on Gohans 1000km in 20 minutes in the Buu arc.
Goku's 48-hour return down the million-kilometer Serpent Road way back in the Saiyan arc (about 20,800 km/h not counting any breaks) shits all over Gohan's 3,000 km/h from the Buu arc. Best not to pay attention to any of Toriyama's numbers.
Oh, I know that, I was just using that as it seems to be in relation to casual speed.
Btw, on the previous post I think we’ll have to ageee to disagree... as this will just continue on for a while, and it takes up far too much time to reply to this on my phone. :lol: I’ll just highlight the certain points, rather than everything.

Simply put I don’t believe something can be retconned when we have never had truly concrete evidence stating how it functions prior, especially when the statements in an arc confirm that fusion was weaker than the new form. The best guide for potara was the SEG, but we haven’t had a guide with new information for stuff post SSJG, the chozenshuu, gave us tidbits, but nothing regarding this matter besides the copy and paste from the Daiz. If there comes a time when statements in the source material confirm such, or a new guide that mentions stuff regarding this matter I’ll change my view. But as it stands I have to believe that fusion has improved post god forms since we had a direct statement regarding where it stood at prior to SSJG in the source. Even if there was an old guide that stated that fusion worked a specific way, that would’ve been retconned as the BoG arc confirmed where Vegetto at that stage sits.

Btw I do only see the manga as just a promo at that point, so for me the anime should take precedence with what it shows in that arc, barring the SSJG absorption. Anyway, though the fusion line may be out, we see Ultimate Gohan fighting in the manga against Beerus, and he’s clearly miles below SSJG, and Rageta. Also SSJ3 Gotenks is nothing to Beerus in the manga, and U Gohan wasn’t way above him in the original manga. Rageta was miles ahead of them both as he mangaed to take shots off, and land on Beerus, and even with that showing all that Beerus could do was a sigh at his power. Once Goku attains SSJG Beerus actually tells Goku that he is impressed by him. That in itself speak volumes when he’s fought all of those other strong characters prior.

Honestly I believe DBS is just a giant mess in general. Blue Vegetto wasn’t all that in the anime, but then Kefla changes shit up. Then on the other hand Base Kefla was much stronger than the other fighters SSJ forms, so her base form was much more than tens of times stronger than their bases.

If the manga follows the SEG, and instead has Goku and Vegeta powers being multiplied together when they fuse, then sure it could work, as Base Vegetto would be asburd, so SSJG could fit between U. Gohan and Base Vegetto. Like you said there’s no statement regarding fusion. Honestly, for me, I can’t see that arc in the manga as anything but a briefing, plus promo, and the Vegetto line wasn’t needed as the anime covered all the little bits such as the namekian book of legends, fusion comments, and then the anime expanded on the other bits shown in it, like the Vados, and Champa stuff, universal punches etc.

My point is, the guides are good and all, but can they override the series? Especially when we find out in BoG that Vegetto isn’t gonna do shit at that stage. If a guide comes out later with new info and says otherwise, then yeah sure, but all a guide is, is supplementary material, and as of now they’re all dated, and contradict what was stated in Toriyamas movie, and arc based on it.
I refuse to throw out what was shown for an entire movie/arc for a guides view on things which Toriyama probably isn’t paying anywhere near as much attention to as BoG, even if he is supervising stuff, and approving bits in those guides they still predate the BoG statement.


In regards to the full nelson, that was interesting, as we did see it with Jiren just after we spoke about it. Though he technically broke it, it was interesting nontheless. Ofcourse we do have Goku saying he’d need the Kaioken to break out of Ginyus FN, and Goten turning SSJ to break out of Trunks’. Ofcourse the SSJ example is a huge gap between those two.
One thing I want to add is Goku has the perfect chance for the full nelson when he grabbed Raditz tail, it was almost a like for like replay of that scene, but instead he went for the tail.


In regard to Dyspo he actually stated he was too pooped, and he can’t clear the distance in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:58 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:Even though it’s not a great feat, it’s still a time frame that shits on Gohans 1000km in 20 minutes in the Buu arc.
Goku's 48-hour return down the million-kilometer Serpent Road way back in the Saiyan arc (about 20,800 km/h not counting any breaks) shits all over Gohan's 3,000 km/h from the Buu arc. Best not to pay attention to any of Toriyama's numbers.
Oh, I know that, I was just using that as it seems to be in relation to casual speed.
Btw, on the previous post I think we’ll have to ageee to disagree... as this will just continue on for a while, and it takes up far too much time to reply to this on my phone.
Alright then. There's just one paragraph I'd like to highlight:
Btw I do only see the manga as just a promo at that point, so for me the anime should take precedence with what it shows in that arc, barring the SSJG absorption.
There's really no basis for this. Shueisha's promotional material has called the manga the "canonical sequel" to Dragon Ball, their "greatest Goku fights" poll currently being held uses images from the manga and includes no anime-only fights, and even Toriyama himself said that the anime staff should use the manga as a storyboard to "keep themselves on track." Toriyama also supervises the manga to a greater degree than the anime; he checks every chapter, making art and dialogue fixes and occasionally drawing and writing his own pages, while he admitted to not even reading the scripts for the anime's Zamasu arc.
Anyway, though the fusion line may be out, we see Ultimate Gohan fighting in the manga against Beerus, and he’s clearly miles below SSJG, and Rageta. Also SSJ3 Gotenks is nothing to Beerus in the manga, and U Gohan wasn’t way above him in the original manga.
I honestly think that's just because Gohan and Gotenks got extremely weak. We know from ROF, roughy one year later in-universe, that Gohan has degenerated so pathetically that he can hardly maintain regular SS1, and it's actually made a major plot point that he's regressed significantly. Which is why it's a big deal when he's stated to regain his power in time for the ToP. I don't think this all took place in that one year while nothing had happened in the previous four; rather I think he was already way weaker. The same should apply to Gotenks.

In the context of the original manga, Gohan being so weak by ROF doesn't make a lot of sense (considering he didn't lose so much power in between the Cell and Buu arcs, nor did Piccolo lose so much power from being sealed for 300 years), but it was in Toriyama's script so it's kind of unavoidable. With that being an in-universe fact, it makes more sense to me from both a logical perspective and a character perspective if Gohan had degraded from the first moment we saw him in Super.

EDIT: One last thing. Dende explicitly states in chapter 31 that "the evil version of Majin Buu" is the most powerful foe Goku and co have ever faced. Stronger than what he had seen from Beerus, stronger than Golden Freeza, stronger than Champa arc Hit, stronger than Black, stronger than Fused Zamasu. If Dende is talking about Buu at his strongest (and indeed, "evil Buu" is generically used in some guidebooks to refer to any of the non-fat forms) then that's surprisingly consistent with the idea that Ultimate Gohan is near-SSB level on his own and base Vegetto can wound CSSB-tier foes.
Image
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:24 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: Goku's 48-hour return down the million-kilometer Serpent Road way back in the Saiyan arc (about 20,800 km/h not counting any breaks) shits all over Gohan's 3,000 km/h from the Buu arc. Best not to pay attention to any of Toriyama's numbers.
Oh, I know that, I was just using that as it seems to be in relation to casual speed.
Btw, on the previous post I think we’ll have to ageee to disagree... as this will just continue on for a while, and it takes up far too much time to reply to this on my phone.
Alright then. There's just one paragraph I'd like to highlight:
Btw I do only see the manga as just a promo at that point, so for me the anime should take precedence with what it shows in that arc, barring the SSJG absorption.
There's really no basis for this. Shueisha's promotional material has called the manga the "canonical sequel" to Dragon Ball, their "greatest Goku fights" poll currently being held uses images from the manga and includes no anime-only fights, and even Toriyama himself said that the anime staff should use the manga as a storyboard to "keep themselves on track." Toriyama also supervises the manga to a greater degree than the anime; he checks every chapter, making art and dialogue fixes and occasionally drawing and writing his own pages, while he admitted to not even reading the scripts for the anime's Zamasu arc.
Anyway, though the fusion line may be out, we see Ultimate Gohan fighting in the manga against Beerus, and he’s clearly miles below SSJG, and Rageta. Also SSJ3 Gotenks is nothing to Beerus in the manga, and U Gohan wasn’t way above him in the original manga.
I honestly think that's just because Gohan and Gotenks got extremely weak. We know from ROF, roughy one year later in-universe, that Gohan has degenerated so pathetically that he can hardly maintain regular SS1, and it's actually made a major plot point that he's regressed significantly. Which is why it's a big deal when he's stated to regain his power in time for the ToP. I don't think this all took place in that one year while nothing had happened in the previous four; rather I think he was already way weaker. The same should apply to Gotenks.

In the context of the original manga, Gohan being so weak by ROF doesn't make a lot of sense (considering he didn't lose so much power in between the Cell and Buu arcs, nor did Piccolo lose so much power from being sealed for 300 years), but it was in Toriyama's script so it's kind of unavoidable. With that being an in-universe fact, it makes more sense to me from both a logical perspective and a character perspective if Gohan had degraded from the first moment we saw him in Super.

EDIT: One last thing. Dende explicitly states in chapter 31 that "the evil version of Majin Buu" is the most powerful foe Goku and co have ever faced. Stronger than what he had seen from Beerus, stronger than Golden Freeza, stronger than Champa arc Hit, stronger than Black, stronger than Fused Zamasu. If Dende is talking about Buu at his strongest (and indeed, "evil Buu" is generically used in some guidebooks to refer to any of the non-fat forms) then that's surprisingly consistent with the idea that Ultimate Gohan is near-SSB level on his own and base Vegetto can wound CSSB-tier foes.
Image
You make some substantial points but I have to disagree with you on a few things. If you are trying to scale gohan based on his feats with the manga, I wouldn't even bother. From chapter 39-42, toyotaro just threw power scaling kinda out the window, toei-style. Gohan's power in the manga legitly makes little sense. And I like the manga... so there's that.
I think what toyo was trying to say is that majin buu gave them the most trouble out of any villian they had ever face - not that he was the strongest. Making majin buu the strongest would blatantly contradict just about everything. If you think majin buu was stronger then Freeza, merged zamasu, hitto etc. You'd basically have to wager that ssj3 is as strong as mssj blue. Oh wait, that's debunked in chapter 29 when toppo made mockery of ssj3. And don't use that decreasing multiplier theory on me, goku said his transformation are useless since toppo was magnitudes of power above goku that the multiplayer were just that insignificant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:30 am

Son-Kakaroto wrote: I think what toyo was trying to say is that majin buu gave them the most trouble out of any villian they had ever face - not that he was the strongest. Making majin buu the strongest would blatantly contradict just about everything. If you think majin buu was stronger then Freeza, merged zamasu, hitto etc. You'd basically have to wager that ssj3 is as strong as mssj blue. Oh wait, that's debunked in chapter 29 when toppo made mockery of ssj3. And don't use that decreasing multiplier theory on me, goku said his transformation are useless since toppo was magnitudes of power above goku that the multiplayer were just that insignificant.
I was thinking about Gohan-Buu actually.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:36 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: I think what toyo was trying to say is that majin buu gave them the most trouble out of any villian they had ever face - not that he was the strongest. Making majin buu the strongest would blatantly contradict just about everything. If you think majin buu was stronger then Freeza, merged zamasu, hitto etc. You'd basically have to wager that ssj3 is as strong as mssj blue. Oh wait, that's debunked in chapter 29 when toppo made mockery of ssj3. And don't use that decreasing multiplier theory on me, goku said his transformation are useless since toppo was magnitudes of power above goku that the multiplayer were just that insignificant.
I was thinking about Gohan-Buu actually.
gohan buu? Hm...

That's a little difficult. Because we don't know definitively how strong a base fusion is in the manga in comparison to God. So it's tough to say, really. It's hard to scale super to Z honestly. Yeah, I guess that's a good topic of discussion and investigation. I won't endeavor into that with you because the manga does not give enough information for me feeling confident to discuss upon.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:15 am

Beerus turned out not to be a real enemy after all and he knows nothing of Goku Black Zamasu in the manga. They don't even have their scrap outside capsule corp in the manga as I recall.

Hitt and the U6 tourney had no life altering stakes. (As far as they know at the time.)

Freeza wasn't dangerous relative to two super saiyan blue opponents and the whole thing lasted less than a day with a lower body count. Dende also says “Formidable” not strongest.

The Buu praise is consistent.

Apply context and have charitable interpretations when reading the manga dialogue. People need to stop dishonestly trying to trump up charges because you prefer the anime.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:35 am

TobyS wrote:Beerus turned out not to be a real enemy after all and he knows nothing of Goku Black Zamasu in the manga. They don't even have their scrap outside capsule corp in the manga as I recall.

Hitt and the U6 tourney had no life altering stakes. (As far as they know at the time.)

Freeza wasn't dangerous relative to two super saiyan blue opponents and the whole thing lasted less than a day with a lower body count. Dende also says “Formidable” not strongest.

The Buu praise is consistent.

Apply context and have charitable interpretations when reading the manga dialogue. People need to stop dishonestly trying to trump up charges because you prefer the anime.
Manga vegito, vs berrus? Or Jiren vs berrus? quitela vs jiren? BELMOD vs Jiren? That would really be some great fights!
Zamsu vs toppo. hit vs toppo, hit vs zamsu.
frieza vs kale
These are some great match-ups for discussion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:26 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: There's really no basis for this. Shueisha's promotional material has called the manga the "canonical sequel" to Dragon Ball, their "greatest Goku fights" poll currently being held uses images from the manga and includes no anime-only fights, and even Toriyama himself said that the anime staff should use the manga as a storyboard to "keep themselves on track." Toriyama also supervises the manga to a greater degree than the anime; he checks every chapter, making art and dialogue fixes and occasionally drawing and writing his own pages, while he admitted to not even reading the scripts for the anime's Zamasu arc.
I did say “at that point”, at that point it was even called promotional material. Now it’s, it’s own animal. The BoG arc clearly isn’t like the rest of the manga arcs, as I highlighted in the previous post with the anime expanding on everything, and the manga missing out on a Toriyama addition (Namekian book of legends) because of how rushed it was.
I honestly think that's just because Gohan and Gotenks got extremely weak. We know from ROF, roughy one year later in-universe, that Gohan has degenerated so pathetically that he can hardly maintain regular SS1, and it's actually made a major plot point that he's regressed significantly. Which is why it's a big deal when he's stated to regain his power in time for the ToP. I don't think this all took place in that one year while nothing had happened in the previous four; rather I think he was already way weaker. The same should apply to Gotenks.
I disagree with Gohan being weaker in BoG. In RoF, sure he was most definitely weaker, though he was arguably still much stronger than base Goku in BoG as he was stronger than Piccolo in his base form in the anime, and pretty darn close in the movie, but I don’t believe he’s weaker in the slightest whilst he still has his Ultimate form. That form is a potential unlock form, in RoF it’s gone, so that makes sense as to why he’s weaker, but we’ve never actually had a statement or a feat that shows that Gohans potential unlock form can become weaker, in fact the anime supports that it’s a base line, ofcourse in the anime he makes mad gains in just 1 day after regaining the form.
Honestly RoF just supports the notion that when Gohans power drops below a certain level he just loses the form. There’s not really anything to support Gotenks being weaker either. Honestly it feels forced to believe that when nothing implies such.
EDIT: One last thing. Dende explicitly states in chapter 31 that "the evil version of Majin Buu" is the most powerful foe Goku and co have ever faced. Stronger than what he had seen from Beerus, stronger than Golden Freeza, stronger than Champa arc Hit, stronger than Black, stronger than Fused Zamasu. If Dende is talking about Buu at his strongest (and indeed, "evil Buu" is generically used in some guidebooks to refer to any of the non-fat forms) then that's surprisingly consistent with the idea that Ultimate Gohan is near-SSB level on his own and base Vegetto can wound CSSB-tier foes.
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It makes sense, Buu was the most formidable opponent that they have faced. Again it’s not that he’s the strongest ever, but most formidable.. ofcourse Dendes only been there for Freeza, out of the two true threats, and he ended up being worthless, Buu on the other hand just continued to 1 up the opponents he was truly formidable. Anyway, that seems to be referring to just Pure Buu, as it’s mentioning the Buu that was reincarnated. So, yeah, there’s that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:15 am

Sora Saiyan wrote: It makes sense, Buu was the most formidable opponent that they have faced. Again it’s not that he’s the strongest ever, but most formidable.. ofcourse Dendes only been there for Freeza, out of the two true threats, and he ended up being worthless, Buu on the other hand just continued to 1 up the opponents he was truly formidable. Anyway, that seems to be referring to just Pure Buu, as it’s mentioning the Buu that was reincarnated. So, yeah, there’s that.
"Formidable" means stronger. Like, literally, there's absolutely no room for debate here. And as I said, "evil Buu" does not mean Pure Buu necessarily, it's used generically to refer to any of the non-fat forms. Which makes sense, there's a continuity from Super Buu to Pure Buu.

Anyway, to segue into another topic...

I just realized that, if the descriptions are accurate, we actually do have a very solid placement of where Beerus and Broly are to (C?)SSB Goku. Broly's "rage" form is stated by Paragus to be him accessing his Oozaru power in his base form. Broly's "LSS" form has been stated in the promotional material to be his "Full Power Super Saiyan", much like how manga Kale's monstrous form was just her regular SS; so that would make his intermediate blonde-haired form a suppressed version, like blue-haired Broly from movie 8.

We know from the summaries that, at his max, Broly's base form is weaker than SSG Vegeta but stronger than SS Vegeta, while his Rage form is stronger than SSG Vegeta and Goku (though SSG Goku can paralyze him briefly) but about even with SSB Goku. We know that his Restrained SS is stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, but not strong enough to instantly kill them or Golden Freeza, and that his Full Power SS is stronger than his Restrained SS, but a lot weaker than SSB Gogeta. Finally, we know that regular SS multipliers are still in effect in Super, given stuff like SS2 Goku being stated as "tens of times" stronger than base Goku in the anime. Finally, at the end of the movie, Goku tells us Beerus might be weaker than Broly. This all tells us:

Base Broly: 1
SSG Goku/Vegeta: 5-ish
Rage Broly: 10
SSB Goku/Vegeta: 10
RSS Broly: 25-ish
FPSS Broly: 50
Beerus: <50 (probably)

The manga seems to treat the movie as if it happened in its timeline, given the latest chapter. The only issue is Vegeta's ToP power-up with the flaming aura. It doesn't show up in the movie. The anime is probably going to do its own version of it. Hence, no SSBKK.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:18 am

Broly's Super Saiyan form is not only 50x. First off Base Broly was relative to Base Vegeta. His Ikari form doesn't follow conventional multipliers. His eyes were stated to turn yellow against Super Saiyan Vegeta so he was using a portion of that power at that time and at full power, the form was a match for Super Saiyan Blue. So Ikari's "multiplier" is comparable to Super Saiyan Blue, not 10x. His Super Saiyan form has an even greater multiplier than Super Saiyan Blue.

Base Gogeta whom is stronger than the Super Saiyan Blues was a match for Super Saiyan Broly, then Broly gets stronger and forces Gogeta to become a Super Saiyan. Broly's power catches up to Super Saiyan Gogeta's. So Broly's normal Super Saiyan state is far greater than 50x, let alone the full power state. Broly goes into his full power mode while Gogeta uses Super Saiyan Blue and he continues to power up further.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:41 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: It makes sense, Buu was the most formidable opponent that they have faced. Again it’s not that he’s the strongest ever, but most formidable.. ofcourse Dendes only been there for Freeza, out of the two true threats, and he ended up being worthless, Buu on the other hand just continued to 1 up the opponents he was truly formidable. Anyway, that seems to be referring to just Pure Buu, as it’s mentioning the Buu that was reincarnated. So, yeah, there’s that.
"Formidable" means stronger. Like, literally, there's absolutely no room for debate here. And as I said, "evil Buu" does not mean Pure Buu necessarily, it's used generically to refer to any of the non-fat forms. Which makes sense, there's a continuity from Super Buu to Pure Buu.

Anyway, to segue into another topic...

I just realized that, if the descriptions are accurate, we actually do have a very solid placement of where Beerus and Broly are to (C?)SSB Goku. Broly's "rage" form is stated by Paragus to be him accessing his Oozaru power in his base form. Broly's "LSS" form has been stated in the promotional material to be his "Full Power Super Saiyan", much like how manga Kale's monstrous form was just her regular SS; so that would make his intermediate blonde-haired form a suppressed version, like blue-haired Broly from movie 8.

We know from the summaries that, at his max, Broly's base form is weaker than SSG Vegeta but stronger than SS Vegeta, while his Rage form is stronger than SSG Vegeta and Goku (though SSG Goku can paralyze him briefly) but about even with SSB Goku. We know that his Restrained SS is stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, but not strong enough to instantly kill them or Golden Freeza, and that his Full Power SS is stronger than his Restrained SS, but a lot weaker than SSB Gogeta. Finally, we know that regular SS multipliers are still in effect in Super, given stuff like SS2 Goku being stated as "tens of times" stronger than base Goku in the anime. Finally, at the end of the movie, Goku tells us Beerus might be weaker than Broly. This all tells us:

Base Broly: 1
SSG Goku/Vegeta: 5-ish
Rage Broly: 10
SSB Goku/Vegeta: 10
RSS Broly: 25-ish
FPSS Broly: 50
Beerus: <50 (probably)

The manga seems to treat the movie as if it happened in its timeline, given the latest chapter. The only issue is Vegeta's ToP power-up with the flaming aura. It doesn't show up in the movie. The anime is probably going to do its own version of it. Hence, no SSBKK.
Formidable doesn’t have to mean strongest, formidable can mean a few things, and the other things it can mean relate to Buu. Even check the synonyms of the word, it shows you how it easily relates to Buu without being severely unDB and having a villain from arcs ago surpassing the current villains. Like I said, it seems to be referring to Pure buu with how it’s appears to be referring to the one that got reincarnated as Uub.

Anywhooo... I would have Brolys SSJ form higher, it’s actually confirmed to be a SSJ form, and judging by his appearance it’s the SSJ form of his Ikari form. Kind of like a human golden Oozaru. His SSJFP form is very hard to place as it’s just own beast, also Broly just continues to get stronger, so god knows how powerful he truly is. I haven’t read everything about the movie like some, but I’ve read about the main bits, and this is the impression I got off of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:50 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: I think what toyo was trying to say is that majin buu gave them the most trouble out of any villian they had ever face - not that he was the strongest. Making majin buu the strongest would blatantly contradict just about everything. If you think majin buu was stronger then Freeza, merged zamasu, hitto etc. You'd basically have to wager that ssj3 is as strong as mssj blue. Oh wait, that's debunked in chapter 29 when toppo made mockery of ssj3. And don't use that decreasing multiplier theory on me, goku said his transformation are useless since toppo was magnitudes of power above goku that the multiplayer were just that insignificant.
I was thinking about Gohan-Buu actually.
That doesn't matter at all. "Majin Boo" is an all-encompassing phrase and it doesn't actually change anything about what he said.

If it says Boo is the most formidable foe they have ever faced, then that's just another manga contradiction. Plain and simple.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:10 pm

PFM18 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: I think what toyo was trying to say is that majin buu gave them the most trouble out of any villian they had ever face - not that he was the strongest. Making majin buu the strongest would blatantly contradict just about everything. If you think majin buu was stronger then Freeza, merged zamasu, hitto etc. You'd basically have to wager that ssj3 is as strong as mssj blue. Oh wait, that's debunked in chapter 29 when toppo made mockery of ssj3. And don't use that decreasing multiplier theory on me, goku said his transformation are useless since toppo was magnitudes of power above goku that the multiplayer were just that insignificant.
I was thinking about Gohan-Buu actually.
That doesn't matter at all. "Majin Boo" is an all-encompassing phrase and it doesn't actually change anything about what he said.

If it says Boo is the most formidable foe they have ever faced, then that's just another manga contradiction. Plain and simple.
How is it a contradiction, if toyotaro meant "strongest" he would have put something akin to "strongest". It just means majin buu was the "toughest" villian they have ever faced. Not neccessarily strongest. aka, like kid buu being the most dangeruous buu even though super buu is stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:59 pm

PFM18 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Son-Kakaroto wrote: I think what toyo was trying to say is that majin buu gave them the most trouble out of any villian they had ever face - not that he was the strongest. Making majin buu the strongest would blatantly contradict just about everything. If you think majin buu was stronger then Freeza, merged zamasu, hitto etc. You'd basically have to wager that ssj3 is as strong as mssj blue. Oh wait, that's debunked in chapter 29 when toppo made mockery of ssj3. And don't use that decreasing multiplier theory on me, goku said his transformation are useless since toppo was magnitudes of power above goku that the multiplayer were just that insignificant.
I was thinking about Gohan-Buu actually.
That doesn't matter at all. "Majin Boo" is an all-encompassing phrase and it doesn't actually change anything about what he said.

If it says Boo is the most formidable foe they have ever faced, then that's just another manga contradiction. Plain and simple.
You know what, you’re sorta right. The manga has got to have multiple issues when there can be such a difference in opinion like this. In regards to Dendes statement though, he really does seem to be talking about Pure Buu. I mean the context supports this, but I’ll break it down further.
By removing the unneeded part that serves to add information in regards to how terrifying Buu was that takes up the middle of Dendes senetence, which is, “the most formidable enemy you’ve ever faced” we end up with “The evil version of Majin Buu had his soul cleansed and reborn as a human” That’s definitely referring to Pure Buu. Also, the actual definition of formidable doesn’t just mean powerful, it has a few meanings, and the synonyms of the word would allow people to get a greater understanding of how the other meanings perfectly fit Buu in a context not referring exclusively to power.

Anyway, the issue that lies with the manga is that it has so many bits missing that the movies, and anime have that allow us to know roughly where the characters stand. Don’t get me wrong, Super is wonky with its scaling, but at least the anime, and movies have statements to allow us to know that the characters post god are truly stand behind everything prior. At the same time, I’m not picking a side between the anime and manga, I actually see them both about equal, as they both have certain bits that I like that the other doesn’t.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:26 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:The manga has got to have multiple issues when there can be such a difference in opinion like this.
Not really. Most people reading Dende's line aren't going to form that conclusion, because that's not what "formidable" means. Its main definition just describes something that would inspire fear, which can easily be the case for Boo (particularly Kid/Pure Boo).

I'd rather avoid turning this thread into another "which medium has more inconsistencies" debate if we can help it; we've all been down that road too many times before, and even if I have my own stance on it, I don't think it's conducive to the topic at this point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:51 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote: Like I said, it seems to be referring to Pure buu with how it’s appears to be referring to the one that got reincarnated as Uub.
I don't think so. The evil Buus should all share the same soul, he's just referring to the evil Buu in general. Pure Buu was just the last version we saw but there's no reason he shouldn't be talking about Buu at his strongest.
Anywhooo... I would have Brolys SSJ form higher, it’s actually confirmed to be a SSJ form, and judging by his appearance it’s the SSJ form of his Ikari form. Kind of like a human golden Oozaru. His SSJFP form is very hard to place as it’s just own beast, also Broly just continues to get stronger, so god knows how powerful he truly is. I haven’t read everything about the movie like some, but I’ve read about the main bits, and this is the impression I got off of it.
When is it confirmed that it's a regular full-power SS form? His "LSS" form being called "SS Full Power" is pretty much a direct confirmation that his previous version isn't. Also he stops getting stronger at some point early in the movie which is why SSG Vegeta was going to kill him before he ascended to Ikari.

Another thing. I notice that both Goku and Vegeta have a flamey aura in this film, unlike in their previous anime appearances. SSBKK and SSBE are nowhere to be seen. Does anyone else think this a reference to Vegeta's evolved SSB in the manga?
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Image
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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