Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:28 am

By the Resurrection F saga, Base Vegito should be astronomically more powerful than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito in the Battle of Gods saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:32 am

I agree.

Is not that Gogeta is "just" more powerful than Vegetto. The question is, Goku and Vegeta grew A LOT more powerful in the ToP, so the quality of the fusion is much superior, resulting in a Gogeta who dwarfs the Vegetto from the Zamasu saga.

Basically it's like:

Zamasu saga

Goku (90) x Vegeta (100) = 900

Broly movie

Goku (300) x Vegeta (300) = 90.000

The quality of a fusion improves astronomically as the fusees grow more powerful. It's actually pretty logical.
If Goku and Vegeta were to form Vegetto in the Broly movie, I reckon he would be around as powerful as Gogeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:21 am

I don't subscribe to this notion of fusion being a multiplication of the two characters. It doesn't make mathematical sense at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:14 am

PFM18 wrote:I don't subscribe to this notion of fusion being a multiplication of the two characters. It doesn't make mathematical sense at all.
Me neither. It's just an example.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:47 am

PFM18 wrote:I don't subscribe to this notion of fusion being a multiplication of the two characters. It doesn't make mathematical sense at all.
How would say fusion does work, with regard to how powerful the fused character is/can be?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:05 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
PFM18 wrote:I don't subscribe to this notion of fusion being a multiplication of the two characters. It doesn't make mathematical sense at all.
How would say fusion does work, with regard to how powerful the fused character is/can be?
Well the way Vados framed it, and it makes sense it would look like:

(A+B)*C

A= 1st fusee. B= 2nd fusee, and C is some constant, or as Vados put it; "tens of times."

And it appears now there would be a modifier depending on the transformations that the characters are capable of.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:14 pm

Bullza wrote:By the Resurrection F saga, Base Vegito should be astronomically more powerful than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito in the Battle of Gods saga.
Yeah pretty much. Considering that:

SSJ Goku BoG arc<SSJ3 Goku<<<<<<<<<<SSG Goku BoG
RoF SSJ Goku>>SSG Goku BoG
ZombieVito wrote:It makes sense Kefla's base was able to overpowered a tired SSG.
Donn't tell anybody else! People LOVE to complain about that scene.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:52 pm

PFM18 wrote:I'm not sure what you're talking about. Like I literally don't know what you are trying to say.
Read my response to Miracles.
ZombieVito wrote:Vegetto or Gogeta in BoG wouldn't cut it because Goku only had SS3 as his max power output but now that they have god forms then the fusion's base is stronger compared to the one from the Boo arc.
Nothing really suggests Fusion’s or Potara’s boost works any different from Boo Arc. It’s just logical that if Super Gogeta is stronger than SSG Goku now, he would be stronger than SSG Goku in the Battle of Gods movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:I'm not sure what you're talking about. Like I literally don't know what you are trying to say.
Read my response to Miracles.
ZombieVito wrote:Vegetto or Gogeta in BoG wouldn't cut it because Goku only had SS3 as his max power output but now that they have god forms then the fusion's base is stronger compared to the one from the Boo arc.
Nothing really suggests Fusion’s or Potara’s boost works any different from Boo Arc. It’s just logical that if Super Gogeta is stronger than SSG Goku now, he would be stronger than SSG Goku in the Battle of Gods movie.
According to BOG's narration. The bold is factually wrong. No fusion would be stronger than SSJG Goku back then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:52 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Nothing really suggests Fusion’s or Potara’s boost works any different from Boo Arc. It’s just logical that if Super Gogeta is stronger than SSG Goku now, he would be stronger than SSG Goku in the Battle of Gods movie.
What is shown in the story, whether it be the dialogue or the fights, made it very clear that SSG Goku is stronger than anything a fusion would have been capable of at the time.

Several variables have changed here that could contribute to the discrepancy:

-ability to use God Ki
-transformation capabilities
-power of the fusees

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:42 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Nothing really suggests Fusion’s or Potara’s boost works any different from Boo Arc. It’s just logical that if Super Gogeta is stronger than SSG Goku now, he would be stronger than SSG Goku in the Battle of Gods movie.
Goku flat out says fusion wouldn't cut it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:14 pm

BoG Vegetto could be stronger than God Goku only if Goku and Vegeta fused AFTER Goku went God.

BoG Goku God>BoG Vegetto>BoG Goku

BR Goku is much stronger than BoG Goku. Vegeta, too.
So their fusion is stronger, as well.

BR Super Gogeta>BR Goku Blue>BR Goku God>BoG Goku God

Gogeta had to go Super Saiyan to actually reach Broly SSFP's levle right?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:44 pm

I don't usually post here, but thought this might be interesting. Not sure if y'all have already seen this, someone did bring up a pic of it before and we weren't sure whether it was real or not.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

"Dream Match!! Gogeta vs Vegetto!! Who is the Strongest in the Universe?!
Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

Guess that settles it. Gogeta > Vegetto
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:13 am

Rakurai wrote:I don't usually post here, but thought this might be interesting. Not sure if y'all have already seen this, someone did bring up a pic of it before and we weren't sure whether it was real or not.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

"Dream Match!! Gogeta vs Vegetto!! Who is the Strongest in the Universe?!
Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

Guess that settles it. Gogeta > Vegetto
"Better balance"... could be the reason Gogeta still lasts 30 minutes, while Vegetto almost immediately defused against Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:42 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Rakurai wrote:I don't usually post here, but thought this might be interesting. Not sure if y'all have already seen this, someone did bring up a pic of it before and we weren't sure whether it was real or not.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

"Dream Match!! Gogeta vs Vegetto!! Who is the Strongest in the Universe?!
Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

Guess that settles it. Gogeta > Vegetto
"Better balance"... could be the reason Gogeta still lasts 30 minutes, while Vegetto almost immediately defused against Zamasu.
That wouldn't explain why Gotenks defuses after 5 minutes, but it is possible that SS3 is just a generally unstable form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:35 am

Bergamo wrote:
wolflonnie wrote:
Rakurai wrote:I don't usually post here, but thought this might be interesting. Not sure if y'all have already seen this, someone did bring up a pic of it before and we weren't sure whether it was real or not.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

"Dream Match!! Gogeta vs Vegetto!! Who is the Strongest in the Universe?!
Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

Guess that settles it. Gogeta > Vegetto
"Better balance"... could be the reason Gogeta still lasts 30 minutes, while Vegetto almost immediately defused against Zamasu.
That wouldn't explain why Gotenks defuses after 5 minutes, but it is possible that SS3 is just a generally unstable form.
Probably it's both because of that AND the fact that neither of the kids could use SS3 individually.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:41 am

Bergamo wrote:That wouldn't explain why Gotenks defuses after 5 minutes, but it is possible that SS3 is just a generally unstable form.
Gotenks didn't even defuse after 5 minutes with SS3, he just couldn't maintain it for more than 5 minutes, after that was over, he just went back to base form, still fused, and then the fusion ended a bit after.

Weirdly enough, Trunks does mention that turning SS3 defused them early at some point, but it didn't do that in the actual fight, so it's just an informed flaw.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:59 am

There seems to be this widespread idea that Vegito is far more powerful than Gogeta and I have no idea how this come about but it might not be the case then?

According to that anyway then Gogeta is stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:27 am

Bullza wrote:There seems to be this widespread idea that Vegito is far more powerful than Gogeta and I have no idea how this come about but it might not be the case then?

According to that anyway then Gogeta is stronger.
It's because old Kai says that potara fusion is better than fusion dance, and many took it as being stronger, however, the actual context has old Kai mentioning that Boo wouldn't let Goku and Gohan do the fusion dance, and that potara has no such thing and the fusion is permanent, so "better" could mean just that it's easier to use and not having a time limit.

On the other hand, it also looks like Potara gave the better gains, since Gotenks as SS3 is only a bit stronger than Super Boo, and SS1 Vegetto completely outclassed Boohan, but even that is another headache, since how strong Goten and Trunks are is vague, the only evidence of their power is that 18 felt the need to dodge Trunks' blast while commenting about how strong the kids are, and Trunks was specificaly holding back too, so assuming she didn't grow weaker they might be around SS Vegeta level from when he fought 18 at the very, very least, although they're definitely below Piccolo.

So yeah, it's a headache, I just accepted that fusions are only as strong as they need to be and there's no definite answer on which one is better, since right now Gogeta looks like he outclasses Vegetto, since Goku and Vegeta in Blue were able to fight fusion Zamasu well enough and Goku even overpowered him once, meanwhile Gogeta in base just outclassed Broly...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:43 am

Bullza wrote:There seems to be this widespread idea that Vegito is far more powerful than Gogeta and I have no idea how this come about but it might not be the case then?
The idea that Potara is stronger than Fusion comes from a few sources, but the one primarily cited is Daizenshuu 7's item dictionary:
Potara
First Appearance: Chapter 501
Category: Miscellaneous
Explanation: Ear decorations worn by Kaioshins and their attendants for generations. Despite being worn so casually, they’re actually an incredible power-up item. The Elder Kaioshin gave them to Goku as a trump card for defeating Majin Buu.
Special Characteristics: To use them, the two people who will merge simply each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu’s body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people’s bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.
Elder Kaioshin also mentions that Potara is "even better than Fusion" in the original manga, but that phrasing is less specific and could have been referring to the time limit.

It's just a case of different supplementary materials contradicting each other. Aside from the result being a real powerhouse with either method, I doubt Toriyama puts much thought into which one is supposed to be stronger. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they were equal.

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