Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

He wasn't at this level when he beat Toppo.

He got a rage boost.

The fusions can't beat a GoD with just Super Saiyan. They need Blue.

He's officially stated to be no stronger than that level. So he was weaker than Blue Kaioken before his boost and as strong as it afterwards.

SSJ Gogeta can defeat a God of Destruction. Blue is overkill.

1. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku were portrayed and stated to be equals in ep.123, which was before Vegeta got that extra power boost against GoD Toppo.

2. Gods of Destruction are not all equal in power, there is no single GoD level. Toppo is likely stronger then Sidra.

3. You are making the false assumption that SSBKKx20 Goku had the same strength throughout the whole ToP, when in reality the one in ep.123 and beyond is way stronger than the 1st UI Omen.

No they weren't stated to be equals in 123. The only statement comparing them is the director's statement which states that SSBE is an equal power to SSB Kaioken. So if Vegeta is at most Goku's equal after everything is said and done, then he was weaker before.

There are no significant differences between the Gods. None of them can stomp the others as shown so if you can stomp any of them you can stomp all of them.

And no it isn't a false assumption that SSB Kaioken Goku was the same strength throughout the tournament. It isn't stated that he got any stronger outside of Ultra Instinct.

[zarmack]

No it doesn't. It only means that the power boost from both Potara and finger fusion are equal. There are way too many statements and feats that show that Goku and Vegeta did get way stronger throughout the ToP.

It does.

If Goku and Vegeta grow even twice as stronger after the FT arc the Gogeta Blue should be stronger than even Whis and that obviously isn't the case.

And there's not a single concrete statement that say the grew stronger in their base forms in the ToP.

Small gains make bigger ones once fused.

You are making way too many baseless assumptions (like assuming to know how exactly much stronger Angels are to Beerus when that's never by clarified).

Both Goku & Vegeta were constantly said to be getting stronger in the ToP (with feats to back it up), and we know that transformations are multipliers of base, not fixed tiers of power. So logically that would mean their bases did get much stronger. Hell, SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta since ep.123 individually are way stronger than anything from the Black arc.

[PFM18]

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Both Goku & Vegeta were constantly said to be getting stronger in the ToP (with feats to back it up), and we know that transformations are multipliers of base, not fixed tiers of power. So logically that would mean their bases did get much stronger. Hell, SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta since ep.123 individually are way stronger than anything from the Black arc.

There literally isn't a single time that they were stated to have gotten stronger during the ToP. You're making things up.

[zarmack]

He's officially stated to be no stronger than that level. So he was weaker than Blue Kaioken before his boost and as strong as it afterwards.

SSJ Gogeta can defeat a God of Destruction. Blue is overkill.

1. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku were portrayed and stated to be equals in ep.123, which was before Vegeta got that extra power boost against GoD Toppo.

2. Gods of Destruction are not all equal in power, there is no single GoD level. Toppo is likely stronger then Sidra.

3. You are making the false assumption that SSBKKx20 Goku had the same strength throughout the whole ToP, when in reality the one in ep.123 and beyond is way stronger than the 1st UI Omen.

No they weren't stated to be equals in 123. The only statement comparing them is the director's statement which states that SSBE is an equal power to SSB Kaioken. So if Vegeta is at most Goku's equal after everything is said and done, then he was weaker before.

There are no significant differences between the Gods. None of them can stomp the others as shown so if you can stomp any of them you can stomp all of them.

And no it isn't a false assumption that SSB Kaioken Goku was the same strength throughout the tournament. It isn't stated that he got any stronger outside of Ultra Instinct.

1. There were stated and shown as equals in ep.123. You are forgetting that Goku gets a general power boost after each time he uses UI (that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last), so Gok using UI one last time in ep.129 would have equalized him and Vegeta without UI afterwards.

2. Beerus in the manga was shown to WAY above the rest of the GoDs, and there's nothing in the anime that says they was relative in power either.

3. It IS false to assume SSBKKx20 was the same in power throughout the ToP. You are making the "transformations are tiers" fallacy. SSBKKx20 and SSBE in ep.123 were shown to be way stronger than even the 1st UI Omen (since they forced Jiren to use much more of his power than he did in the hour special, as pointed out by Belmod). Transformations in DB are multipliers of base, so if a transformation got stronger than logically that means their base did. Hell, Caulifla in her rematch with fatigued SSJ2 Goku pointed out that he was much stronger than when they fought in SSJ2 last time (despite having full stamina back then). That's just one of many examples.

[ZombieVito]

We have no indication that Toriyama has changed his mind on how Beerus and Whis compare. It's still 10 and 15 respectively until proven otherwise.

Toriyama also supervises the manga and that statement on Vegetto stayed. It can be used in the anime since it contradicts nothing.

[zarmack]

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Both Goku & Vegeta were constantly said to be getting stronger in the ToP (with feats to back it up), and we know that transformations are multipliers of base, not fixed tiers of power. So logically that would mean their bases did get much stronger. Hell, SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta since ep.123 individually are way stronger than anything from the Black arc.

There literally isn't a single time that they were stated to have gotten stronger during the ToP. You're making things up.

There's countless dialogue about them "breaking their limits" even without actually transforming, like in the fight with Kale and Caulifla.

[ZombieVito]

There's countless dialogue about them "breaking their limits" even without actually transforming, like in the fight with Kale and Caulifla.

You are making things up man.

[zarmack]

We have no indication that Toriyama has changed his mind on how Beerus and Whis compare. It's still 10 and 15 respectively until proven otherwise.

Toriyama also supervises the manga and that statement on Vegetto stayed. It can be used in the anime since it contradicts nothing.

The anime and manga contradict each other all the time in terms of scaling, and if the 6-10-15 thing was still valid (it obviously isn't) then RoF SSB Goku would be way stronger than Whis lmao.

[zarmack]

There's countless dialogue about them "breaking their limits" even without actually transforming, like in the fight with Kale and Caulifla.

You are making things up man.

And he was fatigued too.

[Galan007]

And the statement about about Black arc Vegito = Beerus is manga only (which doesn't have the same powerscaling as the anime), and even Toyotaro said himself in interview that the statement by Shin wasn't mean't to be an absolute fact.

Of course not. After all, Shin hadn't even seen/sensed a full power Beerus at that point in the manga -- a heavily suppressed Beerus was the only measuring stick he had at the time.

[ZombieVito]

The anime and manga contradict each other all the time in terms of scaling, and if the 6-10-15 thing was still valid (it obviously isn't) then RoF SSB Goku would be way stronger than Whis lmao.

I never said the number for SSG was valid anymore.

And the anime and manga contradict each other way less than you think. The differences are almost all because of exclusive forms in one medium.

And he was fatigued too.

Goku was not going all out the first time they fought. Easy.

Of course not. After all, Shin hadn't even seen/sensed a full power Beerus at that point in the manga -- a heavily suppressed Beerus was the only measuring stick he had at the time.

Citation needed.

[Bullza]

So how can Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito in Battle of Gods but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Shouldn't current Super Saiyan God Goku be above any Super Saiyan Gogeta just as Super Saiyan God Goku back then was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito back then?

[Galan007]

Citation needed.

Proving a negative is not a requirement here. So far as we know, Shin had NEVER seen Beerus utilize his full power when he made that statement... Unless you know of some major off-screen/page battle that Shin witnessed beforehand, which forced Beerus to use full power..?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Citation needed.

Proving a negative is not a requirement here. So far as we know, Shin had NEVER seen Beerus utilize his full power when he made that statement... Unless you know of some major off-screen/page battle that Shin witnessed beforehand, which forced Beerus to use full power..?

Still doesn't make sense. A heveally supressed beerus was only around a SSG in power, and currently anyone's assumption would be that he is above ssb goku and vegeta. Merged zamasu was the greatest ki they've felt, yet there were no comparisons with beerus.

Anyway, we have jiren as a measuring stick. Jiren may not be as strong, but he is up there with beerus in power.

[PFM18]

We have no indication that Toriyama has changed his mind on how Beerus and Whis compare. It's still 10 and 15 respectively until proven otherwise.

Toriyama also supervises the manga and that statement on Vegetto stayed. It can be used in the anime since it contradicts nothing.

we have every indication to believe that the "God scale" that this comes from has been retconned. Using a smaller premise from it doesn't make sense, since the entire thing has been retconned.

You still can't ever apply manga-scaling to anime-scaling. It doesn't work, they are completely different.

So how can Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito in Battle of Gods but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Shouldn't current Super Saiyan God Goku be above any Super Saiyan Gogeta just as Super Saiyan God Goku back then was stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito back then?

Well that conundrum came up during the Kefla fight too. To me, it didn't seem in the ToP that the SSG that was used there, after absorbing the power of SSG, utilized the same boost as the one achieved by the ritual initially. Therefore:

pre-ritual SSG>>>>fusion
post-ritual SSG<<<<fusion

Since they had already "made the power their own" of SSG. Headcanon I know, but it makes sense to me.

[Galan007]

Still doesn't make sense. A heveally supressed beerus was only around a SSG in power, and currently anyone's assumption would be that he is above ssb goku and vegeta. Merged zamasu was the greatest ki they've felt, yet there were no comparisons with beerus.

Anyway, we have jiren as a measuring stick. Jiren may not be as strong, but he is up there with beerus in power.

Just saying that as far as we know, Shin had never witnessed Beerus use his full power up to that point, and therefore could not have logically been comparing Vegetto to FP Beerus.

As far as we know, Shin never saw an 'all out' Beerus(in the manga) until the Zen Exhibition Match, when he was fighting all of the other Hakaishin simultaneously... But that was obviously AFTER the Zamasu arc.

[ZombieVito]

we have every indication to believe that the "God scale" that this comes from has been retconned. Using a smaller premise from it doesn't make sense, since the entire thing has been retconned.

You still can't ever apply manga-scaling to anime-scaling. It doesn't work, they are completely different.

We also have no indication that Toriyama doesn't view them as true still (For Whis and Beerus).

If something for the manga doesn't contradict anything then it's fair game for the anime. Kefla already makes Vegetto Blue being up there with Beerus very likely in the anime anyway.

[Marlowe89]

So how can Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito in Battle of Gods but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

It's worth noting that when Goku mentioned Fusion wouldn't be able to stand up to Beerus, he hadn't yet obtained Super Saiyan God.

If it's true that a base Fusion/Potara warrior always takes their components' full power into account from the start, then the associated boost is dynamic and will always increase as Goku and Vegeta become stronger.

[PFM18]

So how can Super Saiyan God Goku be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito in Battle of Gods but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

It's worth noting that when Goku mentioned Fusion wouldn't be able to stand up to Beerus, he hadn't yet obtained Super Saiyan God.

If it's true that a base Fusion/Potara warrior always takes their components' full power into account from the start, then the associated boost is dynamic and will always increase as Goku and Vegeta become stronger.

This also works well. Given that it appears the fusion boost depends on transformation capabilities and is automatically not a static boost.

[Bullza]

Maybe Super Saiyan God just never was as strong as Super Saiyan Vegito after all.

Base Kefla was shown to be above Super Saiyan God Goku. He was tired so it's hard to say if he would still be when he was at full strength but maybe the movie will clear some things up.

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was a match for Ultra Instinct Goku to an extent so I suppose Super Saiyan Gogeta should be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.