Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Then again Super Saiyan Kefla should logically be stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta.

Huh? How so?

Yes agree. How so?

Kale and Cauliflas max cant even tickle ssg God goku. And a super Saiyan blue goku was almost on par with her ssj form.

Plus let's not forget that ssj gogeta isn't the only one above blue goku, base gogeta is as well, by a long shot since all the summaries say that base gogeta was doing fine against broly. Only that broly increases in power even more so of course gogeta will also have to step it up.

[Lukmendes]

This is a false analogy. because:

1. Kale and Caulifla are not comparable to Buu arc Goku and Vegeta

2. Pre-ritual SSG and Post-ritual SSG are 2 different levels of power-ups

Potara fusion apparently is the max power of both partners added together (then multiplied "tens of times" according to Vados) making the base result. That's why Base Vegito was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc and stronger than SSB Goku in the Black arc. Mastered Berzerk Kale wasn't too far away from SSG Goku in power, so base Kefla being stronger than him isn't a stretch.

Most of this sounds like headcanon, specialy the power up from pre-ritual and post ritual power up being different, but even if the theory that "Base form of a fusion gets a boost from the max power from transformations" is true, then Kefla still doesn't make much sense, again, Kale wasn't that strong, and I have no idea where you got the idea that she's not too far away from SSG in power since as SS2 Goku was still handling himself well enough against both of them, and as SSG during the whole fight Goku was just kicking her ass, and if the constant smirks he had during it are any hint, he was just messing around.

And as far as anime goes, there's no evidence that Vegetto was stronger than Blue Goku/Vegeta in base since he didn't fight on it, if anything, the power boost he and Zamasu got wasn't that impressive, since Goku still managed to hurt Zamasu enough, and with how desperate Zamasu was sounding, he definitely wasn't holding back, and Vegetto was only around Zamasu's level, so that's looking inconsistent.

[PFM18]

Plus let's not forget that ssj gogeta isn't the only one above blue goku, base gogeta is as well, by a long shot since all the summaries say that base gogeta was doing fine against broly. Only that broly increases in power even more so of course gogeta will also have to step it up.

I'll believe it when I see it. It's probably this super brief sequence that means nothing.

If that is the case, then even though it doesn't technically contradict anything, it creates a lot of intense bloat.

[Dbzk1999]

This is a false analogy. because:

1. Kale and Caulifla are not comparable to Buu arc Goku and Vegeta

2. Pre-ritual SSG and Post-ritual SSG are 2 different levels of power-ups

Potara fusion apparently is the max power of both partners added together (then multiplied "tens of times" according to Vados) making the base result. That's why Base Vegito was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc and stronger than SSB Goku in the Black arc. Mastered Berzerk Kale wasn't too far away from SSG Goku in power, so base Kefla being stronger than him isn't a stretch.

Most of this sounds like headcanon, specialy the power up from pre-ritual and post ritual power up being different, but even if the theory that "Base form of a fusion gets a boost from the max power from transformations" is true, then Kefla still doesn't make much sense, again, Kale wasn't that strong, and I have no idea where you got the idea that she's not too far away from SSG in power since as SS2 Goku was still handling himself well enough against both of them, and as SSG during the whole fight Goku was just kicking her ass, and if the constant smirks he had during it are any hint, he was just messing around.

And as far as anime goes, there's no evidence that Vegetto was stronger than Blue Goku/Vegeta in base since he didn't fight on it, if anything, the power boost he and Zamasu got wasn't that impressive, since Goku still managed to hurt Zamasu enough, and with how desperate Zamasu was sounding, he definitely wasn't holding back, and Vegetto was only around Zamasu's level, so that's looking inconsistent.

Do take into consideration that Merged Zamasu powered up significantly right after goku did that (and that was the reason they decided to fuse in the first place)

[superfan2024]

(Warning: Hot take):

I honestly thing that having power/strength debates between characters and events in the anime won't really get you guys anywhere given how incredibly inconsistent it is, along with the fact that many bizarre situations aren't explained in the episodes by the diverse anime writers, and also along with the fact that many of y'all create headcanon to justify why certain match-ups would or wouldn't make sense.

I suggest not taking the anime's power/strength seriously as in many circumstances I am 99% sure that some of the writers were just doing things just for the purpose of the episode.

I also suggest that you guys should take the manga more seriously, as it has a far lesser amount of inconsistencies within power/strength, given its only two main writers (Toyo/Toriyama), and also given that it's an actual specialized manga series, the power/strength would most likely be more secure and consistent than the anime, and to me, that's just how it is.

Now, i'm not deliberately telling/forcing any of you to focus on the manga's power/strength over the anime's; i'm only suggesting based on my beliefs and my experiences.

[zarmack]

And as far as anime goes, there's no evidence that Vegetto was stronger than Blue Goku/Vegeta in base since he didn't fight on it, if anything, the power boost he and Zamasu got wasn't that impressive, since Goku still managed to hurt Zamasu enough, and with how desperate Zamasu was sounding, he definitely wasn't holding back, and Vegetto was only around Zamasu's level, so that's looking inconsistent.

Merged Zamasu was obviously not a full power when he fought Goku, and he more pissed off that Goku was able to touch him than actually hurt from him. It was only when Merged Zamasu hits himself with Lightning of Absolution and gets the purple arm is when he becomes so powerful that Goku and Vegeta have to fuse to fight him (he even says "a weak god like me needs to get stronger", which is what he did). This as pointed out by Gowasu and the others right before Vegito even appears.

[Bullza]

Huh? How so?

Well Super Saiyan Kefla accounts for Super Saiyan Kale and Super Saiyan Kale is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Kale and Caulifla make a more powerful pairing than Goku and Vegeta because of it.

[zarmack]

(Warning: Hot take):

I honestly thing that having power/strength debates between characters and events in the anime won't really get you guys anywhere given how incredibly inconsistent it is, along with the fact that many bizarre situations aren't explained in the episodes by the diverse anime writers, and also along with the fact that many of y'all create headcanon to justify why certain match-ups would or wouldn't make sense.

I suggest not taking the anime's power/strength seriously as in many circumstances I am 99% sure that some of the writers were just doing things just for the purpose of the episode.

I also suggest that you guys should take the manga more seriously, as it has a far lesser amount of inconsistencies within power/strength, given its only two main writers (Toyo/Toriyama), and also given that it's an actual specialized manga series, the power/strength would most likely be more secure and consistent than the anime, and to me, that's just how it is.

Now, i'm not deliberately telling/forcing any of you to focus on the manga's power/strength over the anime's; i'm only suggesting based on my beliefs and my experiences.

The manga's powerscaling is far worse if you are really trying to go there (SSJ Vegeta struggling to lift 1000 pounds, Normal SSB Vegeta being able to severally damage Merged Zamasu, SSJ2 Trunks being able to cut him in half, Gohan in the ToP going from apparently relative to Piccolo to matching SSJ Kefla with no explanation, everything involving Kale in the manga, and a bunch of other things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31DC7quEm8M)

And most of the alleged inconsistencies of the anime are really just people ignoring context and dialogue, like denying that a character is holding back when they outright say that are, or denying that a character got stronger overtime in the same arc when they outright say and show with feats that they are. etc.

[superfan2024]

(Warning: Hot take):

I honestly thing that having power/strength debates between characters and events in the anime won't really get you guys anywhere given how incredibly inconsistent it is, along with the fact that many bizarre situations aren't explained in the episodes by the diverse anime writers, and also along with the fact that many of y'all create headcanon to justify why certain match-ups would or wouldn't make sense.

I suggest not taking the anime's power/strength seriously as in many circumstances I am 99% sure that some of the writers were just doing things just for the purpose of the episode.

I also suggest that you guys should take the manga more seriously, as it has a far lesser amount of inconsistencies within power/strength, given its only two main writers (Toyo/Toriyama), and also given that it's an actual specialized manga series, the power/strength would most likely be more secure and consistent than the anime, and to me, that's just how it is.

Now, i'm not deliberately telling/forcing any of you to focus on the manga's power/strength over the anime's; i'm only suggesting based on my beliefs and my experiences.

The manga's powerscaling is far worse if you are really trying to go there (SSJ Vegeta struggling to lift 1000 pounds, Normal SSB Vegeta being able to severally damage Merged Zamasu, SSJ2 Trunks being able to cut him in half, Gohan in the ToP going from apparently relative to Piccolo to matching SSJ Kefla with no explanation, everything involving Kale in the manga, and a bunch of other things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31DC7quEm8M)

And most of the alleged inconsistencies of the anime are really just people ignoring context and dialogue, like denying that a character is holding back when they outright say that are, or denying that a character got stronger overtime in the same arc when they outright say and show with feats that they are. etc.

I never said that the manga didn't have any powerscaling inconsistencies. I just said that it had far less inconsistent powerscaling incidents than the anime.

[Miracles]

(Warning: Hot take):

I honestly thing that having power/strength debates between characters and events in the anime won't really get you guys anywhere given how incredibly inconsistent it is, along with the fact that many bizarre situations aren't explained in the episodes by the diverse anime writers, and also along with the fact that many of y'all create headcanon to justify why certain match-ups would or wouldn't make sense.

I suggest not taking the anime's power/strength seriously as in many circumstances I am 99% sure that some of the writers were just doing things just for the purpose of the episode.

I also suggest that you guys should take the manga more seriously, as it has a far lesser amount of inconsistencies within power/strength, given its only two main writers (Toyo/Toriyama), and also given that it's an actual specialized manga series, the power/strength would most likely be more secure and consistent than the anime, and to me, that's just how it is.

Now, i'm not deliberately telling/forcing any of you to focus on the manga's power/strength over the anime's; i'm only suggesting based on my beliefs and my experiences.

You are absolutely right. The anime is full of bad writing due to lack of explanation. Goku going blue against Krillin [filler episode]? lol, Allowing Krillin to actually struggle with a beam from Blue Goku??? When have we ever seen in the main source Goku going Super Saiyan and allows a weakling like Krillin to struggle? Krillin shouldn't even be handling base Goku now. And I don't wanna hear about the headcanon from the fanboys about "Ki control bro!!" No, that was totally in the context of not allowing Ki to seep out so one could stay using Blue!!!! These scenarios by TOEI contradicts the story points.

Because of that Krillin episode, many like to try to use that scene for Goku going Blue against Kale as a sign of him holding back since he did it against Krillin. Even tho it was never stated he was holding back and not to mention whenever one goes Blue they are putting out tons of power due to that Ki control!! Not to mention in the TOP they didn't want to use Blue due to stamina drain. So Goku uses Blue against Kale then but later he uses red against a more powerful Kale and was fighting her evenly while tired. To try and make sense of it people headcannon with rationalizations with "Goku was holding back before that's why" or "Goku got stronger during the TOP that is the only reason why he was handling a stronger Kale in red later."

[PFM18]

Huh? How so?

Well Super Saiyan Kefla accounts for Super Saiyan Kale and Super Saiyan Kale is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Kale and Caulifla make a more powerful pairing than Goku and Vegeta because of it.

Well that's a good point. But if Kale>SSJ3 Goku, then it is at a marginal amount at best considering she wasn't exactly dominating Goku's SSJ2.

(Warning: Hot take):

I honestly thing that having power/strength debates between characters and events in the anime won't really get you guys anywhere given how incredibly inconsistent it is, along with the fact that many bizarre situations aren't explained in the episodes by the diverse anime writers, and also along with the fact that many of y'all create headcanon to justify why certain match-ups would or wouldn't make sense.

I suggest not taking the anime's power/strength seriously as in many circumstances I am 99% sure that some of the writers were just doing things just for the purpose of the episode.

I also suggest that you guys should take the manga more seriously, as it has a far lesser amount of inconsistencies within power/strength, given its only two main writers (Toyo/Toriyama), and also given that it's an actual specialized manga series, the power/strength would most likely be more secure and consistent than the anime, and to me, that's just how it is.

Now, i'm not deliberately telling/forcing any of you to focus on the manga's power/strength over the anime's; i'm only suggesting based on my beliefs and my experiences.

Or in other words, "Why aren't you guys talking about the medium that I like?? C'mon you should be!"

it's not even remotely close to true. The scaling in the manga simply isn't better than in the anime. @zarmack already explained several examples. And like he mentioned, most scenes that people claim are inconsistent in the anime are simply just misconceptions/misinterpretations.

[superfan2024]

Huh? How so?

Well Super Saiyan Kefla accounts for Super Saiyan Kale and Super Saiyan Kale is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Kale and Caulifla make a more powerful pairing than Goku and Vegeta because of it.

Well that's a good point. But if Kale>SSJ3 Goku, then it is at a marginal amount at best considering she wasn't exactly dominating Goku's SSJ2.

(Warning: Hot take):

I honestly thing that having power/strength debates between characters and events in the anime won't really get you guys anywhere given how incredibly inconsistent it is, along with the fact that many bizarre situations aren't explained in the episodes by the diverse anime writers, and also along with the fact that many of y'all create headcanon to justify why certain match-ups would or wouldn't make sense.

I suggest not taking the anime's power/strength seriously as in many circumstances I am 99% sure that some of the writers were just doing things just for the purpose of the episode.

I also suggest that you guys should take the manga more seriously, as it has a far lesser amount of inconsistencies within power/strength, given its only two main writers (Toyo/Toriyama), and also given that it's an actual specialized manga series, the power/strength would most likely be more secure and consistent than the anime, and to me, that's just how it is.

Now, i'm not deliberately telling/forcing any of you to focus on the manga's power/strength over the anime's; i'm only suggesting based on my beliefs and my experiences.

Or in other words, "Why aren't you guys talking about the medium that I like?? C'mon you should be!"

it's not even remotely close to true. The scaling in the manga simply isn't better than in the anime. @zarmack already explained several examples. And like he mentioned, most scenes that people claim are inconsistent in the anime are simply just misconceptions/misinterpretations.

No not at all. Please don't make this into something negative that isn't

[Lukmendes]

Do take into consideration that Merged Zamasu powered up significantly right after goku did that (and that was the reason they decided to fuse in the first place)

Merged Zamasu was obviously not a full power when he fought Goku, and he more pissed off that Goku was able to touch him than actually hurt from him. It was only when Merged Zamasu hits himself with Lightning of Absolution and gets the purple arm is when he becomes so powerful that Goku and Vegeta have to fuse to fight him (he even says "a weak god like me needs to get stronger", which is what he did). This as pointed out by Gowasu and the others right before Vegito even appears.

Gowasu only points out that Zamasu's mind and body were becoming unstable and that they'd need to hit him harder than before as their chance to beat him, and that's when Goku thinks of fusion, and the other characters have no dialogue saying that Zamasu got stronger, in fact, when they do see Light of Justice hitting Zamasu, they don't have any surprised grunts or anything, Vegeta just starts to wonder why Zamasu isn't healing, so how much stronger Zamasu got, or even if he really did, is pretty moot.

Also, both of Zamasu's beam struggles, the one against Trunks and Vegeta, and the other one against Goku, show him becoming really pissed and trying harder to kill them, but failing, and again, how much stronger he gets after that is moot.

The manga's powerscaling is far worse if you are really trying to go there (SSJ Vegeta struggling to lift 1000 pounds, Normal SSB Vegeta being able to severally damage Merged Zamasu, SSJ2 Trunks being able to cut him in half, Gohan in the ToP going from apparently relative to Piccolo to matching SSJ Kefla with no explanation, everything involving Kale in the manga, and a bunch of other things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31DC7quEm8M)

SSJ Vegeta one is an oddly consistent inconsistency (Yes, I know how ridiculous this sounds lol), since base form Goku in Boo saga struggled to lift 40 tons, for whatever reason DB characters aren't supposed to have much physical strength, but that causes inconsistencies... Fusion Zamasu is shown that he has a Boo thing going on, that weaker characters can damage him, but he can just heal (Another example is when Goku, before perfecting Blue, managed to make a hole on him, and Zamasu just healed himself and kept beating him), SSJ2 Trunks was when the fusion was undone already and they were trying to force to stay fused, Gohan one makes no sense yeah, Kale isn't an inconsistency since she was shown to be really strong even in base form (As Freeza points out that her attacks hit harder than SS Caulifla's), and then Cabba says she's the "Legendary Saiyan", so she was already really strong to begin with, has a rare powerful transformation, and when she gets her ass kicked by the pride troopers, it's pointed out that she wasted too much power, if anything she remains consistent.

[Miracles]

The manga has it's inconsistencies too. Roshi dodging Jiren shouldn't even be possible. Gohan able to battle Kefla without it's own explanation.
This leaves fans with the feeling they have to fill in the gap with headcanon explanations. Lol, I understand the context but at the end of the day no in story reasons.

[zarmack]

Do take into consideration that Merged Zamasu powered up significantly right after goku did that (and that was the reason they decided to fuse in the first place)

Merged Zamasu was obviously not a full power when he fought Goku, and he more pissed off that Goku was able to touch him than actually hurt from him. It was only when Merged Zamasu hits himself with Lightning of Absolution and gets the purple arm is when he becomes so powerful that Goku and Vegeta have to fuse to fight him (he even says "a weak god like me needs to get stronger", which is what he did). This as pointed out by Gowasu and the others right before Vegito even appears.

Gowasu only points out that Zamasu's mind and body were becoming unstable and that they'd need to hit him harder than before as their chance to beat him, and that's when Goku thinks of fusion, and the other characters have no dialogue saying that Zamasu got stronger, in fact, when they do see Light of Justice hitting Zamasu, they don't have any surprised grunts or anything, Vegeta just starts to wonder why Zamasu isn't healing, so how much stronger Zamasu got, or even if he really did, is pretty moot.

Also, both of Zamasu's beam struggles, the one against Trunks and Vegeta, and the other one against Goku, show him becoming really pissed and trying harder to kill them, but failing, and again, how much stronger he gets after that is moot.

The manga's powerscaling is far worse if you are really trying to go there (SSJ Vegeta struggling to lift 1000 pounds, Normal SSB Vegeta being able to severally damage Merged Zamasu, SSJ2 Trunks being able to cut him in half, Gohan in the ToP going from apparently relative to Piccolo to matching SSJ Kefla with no explanation, everything involving Kale in the manga, and a bunch of other things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31DC7quEm8M)

SSJ Vegeta one is an oddly consistent inconsistency (Yes, I know how ridiculous this sounds lol), since base form Goku in Boo saga struggled to lift 40 tons, for whatever reason DB characters aren't supposed to have much physical strength, but that causes inconsistencies... Fusion Zamasu is shown that he has a Boo thing going on, that weaker characters can damage him, but he can just heal (Another example is when Goku, before perfecting Blue, managed to make a hole on him, and Zamasu just healed himself and kept beating him), SSJ2 Trunks was when the fusion was undone already and they were trying to force to stay fused, Gohan one makes no sense yeah, Kale isn't an inconsistency since she was shown to be really strong even in base form (As Freeza points out that her attacks hit harder than SS Caulifla's), and then Cabba says she's the "Legendary Saiyan", so she was already really strong to begin with, has a rare powerful transformation, and when she gets her ass kicked by the pride troopers, it's pointed out that she wasted too much power, if anything she remains consistent.

The base Saiyans were lifting more than that even before the Buu arc, so its nonsense either way (not to mention all the times these characters punch down mountains since the Saiyan saga.)

Merged Zamasu himself flat out states that he needs to get stronger after the fight with Goku, that's why he use the lightning on himself and gets the purple arm. If he didn't get any stronger from that then Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have felt the need to fuse.

[Helios518]

Potara fusion apparently is the max power of both partners added together (then multiplied "tens of times" according to Vados) making the base result.

I believe you're twisting the statement. Vados only stated the power is tens of times stronger than the fusees. The "max power of both partners" isn't even stated or implied.

[zarmack]

Potara fusion apparently is the max power of both partners added together (then multiplied "tens of times" according to Vados) making the base result.

I believe you're twisting the statement. Vados only stated the power is tens of times stronger than the fusees. The "max power of both partners" isn't even stated or implied.

Its been shown with feats every time, like Base Vegito being > SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc and SSB Goku in the Black arc, as well as Base Kefla being > Mastered Berzerk Kale.

[Jmass97]

how does this confirm that exactly?

Because Piccolo said that smaller gains make bigger gains for fusion and because Blue Gogeta isn't dimensions apart from Vegetto Blue who is close to Beerus, then we can conclude that the gains for Goku and Vegeta weren't that much as some people assumed.

I wouldn't even be surprised if UI Goku is said to be stronger than Gogeta in the future, making the difference even smaller from him and Vegetto Blue.

If Vegetto blue and Broly we’re both questioned to have possibly surpassed beerus and we see that Gogeta despite needing blue was still easily handling Broly then that indeed does imply that Goku and Vegetas gains were quite substantial...

[PFM18]

Potara fusion apparently is the max power of both partners added together (then multiplied "tens of times" according to Vados) making the base result.

I believe you're twisting the statement. Vados only stated the power is tens of times stronger than the fusees. The "max power of both partners" isn't even stated or implied.

Its been shown with feats every time, like Base Vegito being > SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc and SSB Goku in the Black arc, as well as Base Kefla being > Mastered Berzerk Kale.

That's true but you're still twisting "sum of the parts multiplied tens of times" to mean "their Base form is the sum of the parts multiplied tens of times." Which simply is not the statement.

[Lukmendes]

Merged Zamasu himself flat out states that he needs to get stronger after the fight with Goku, that's why he use the lightning on himself and gets the purple arm. If he didn't get any stronger from that then Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have felt the need to fuse.

At no point in the conversation the characters say something among the lines of "That power up Zamasu did made him too strong, we need fusion to beat him", or any line even mentioning he got stronger, and the way the conversation goes, we have Gowasu saying that Zamasu was becoming unstable and that hitting him harder would help to defeat him, and then Goku suggests the fusion otherwise they can't beat him, which makes sense considering he broke his arms with that kamehameha and he didn't seriously hurt Zamasu, so basicaly it seems they would have tried fusion to deal with him anyways, since, again, no point in the dialogue is suggested he got stronger, so again, how much stronger he got is pretty moot.