Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:41 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Freezerbaby wrote:Very disappointed to see that there isn´t golden freeza vs Broly at all, just a shot hinting that freeza lost.
No. There definitely is golden Freeza vs broly. You see him get stomped by broly in his Golden form, not just the shot with him on the Mountain.
yes but no fight at all, after the fusion the movie goes back to broly vs freeza but just shows a damaged golden freeza stuck in the rocks, broly leaves the fight then base gogeta shows up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:22 pm

The only part I was dying to see was Whis vs Broly, couldn't care less about the rest.

It was short but it clearly showed how nobody will ever come close to reach even his 10%, let alone surpass him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:01 am

Zamasu55 wrote:The only part I was dying to see was Whis vs Broly, couldn't care less about the rest.

It was short but it clearly showed how nobody will ever come close to reach even his 10%, let alone surpass him.
I find it a bit funny that you came to that conclusion when Whis fought someone who isn't even 5 times stronger that Blue Goku.

What he did is really not that impressive since Kefla, GoD Toppo, Merged Zamasu, Beerus and Jiren can do it as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:39 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:The only part I was dying to see was Whis vs Broly, couldn't care less about the rest.

It was short but it clearly showed how nobody will ever come close to reach even his 10%, let alone surpass him.
I find it a bit funny that you came to that conclusion when Whis fought someone who isn't even 5 times stronger that Blue Goku.
How do you figure he is less than 5x stronger?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:52 am

PFM18 wrote: How do you figure he is less than 5x stronger?
Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:18 am

Not sure if this was already posted here, but Herms did an awesome breakdown of the strongest fusion debacle.

In my opinion, recent Information always takes precedence, so I would say there is fundamentally no difference between those fusions.

Edit: As a bonus, the wafer stickers suggest Blue Gogeta is equal to Ultra Instinct Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:56 am

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: How do you figure he is less than 5x stronger?
Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12
Not to mention that Broly was beating Golden Freeza for an entire hour (time of the two fusions that failed), but did not even deactivate his Golden transformation. If the power difference were so great, Freeza should be in a much worse state than we saw when Gogeta saved him

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:03 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: How do you figure he is less than 5x stronger?
Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12
Not to mention that Broly was beating Golden Freeza for an entire hour (time of the two fusions that failed), but did not even deactivate his Golden transformation. If the power difference were so great, Freeza should be in a much worse state than we saw when Gogeta saved him
3 hours. 30 mins Veku. 1h cooldown. 30 mins Veku. 1h cooldown.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:17 pm

Cetra wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12
Not to mention that Broly was beating Golden Freeza for an entire hour (time of the two fusions that failed), but did not even deactivate his Golden transformation. If the power difference were so great, Freeza should be in a much worse state than we saw when Gogeta saved him
3 hours. 30 mins Veku. 1h cooldown. 30 mins Veku. 1h cooldown.
I completely forgot about the cooldown. I do not know if Piccolo talked about it after the merger failed, but in that case, Freeza endured much longer than I thought, which reinforces that the difference in power was not so great

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:17 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: How do you figure he is less than 5x stronger?
Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12
That falls apart because they are simply constant numbers. Broly's power is constantly growing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:37 pm

Is Super Saiyan God around 10x of SSJ, or 20x at best? The movie gives me this impression considering how Broly, as soon as he triggers his rage mode is able to beat SSG Vegeta, and Broly was above SSJ Vegeta which is why he was forced to go SSG.
I believe Broly’s form should be around 10x if that’s the Oozaru power, unless the fact that it’s condensed into his normal body makes it that much more formidable? He definitely keeps improving in his form, but Blue Goku was stronger than Broly.

Basically, throwing numbers, it would be:

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 5.000
SSB: 10.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 5.000
SSB: 10.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x regular form): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 9.000
SSJ: 450.000
LSSJ: 900.000

Gogeta: 100.000
SSJ: 500.000
SSB: 1.000.000

Of course I really, really doubt the forms work as multiplier anymore, especially in Gogeta’s case in this movie, but that’s still fun to throw some numbers every now and then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:45 pm

emperior wrote:Is Super Saiyan God around 10x of SSJ, or 20x at best? The movie gives me this impression considering how Broly, as soon as he triggers his rage mode is able to beat SSG Vegeta, and Broly was above SSJ Vegeta which is why he was forced to go SSG.
I believe Broly’s form should be around 10x if that’s the Oozaru power, unless the fact that it’s condensed into his normal body makes it that much more formidable? He definitely keeps improving in his form, but Blue Goku was stronger than Broly.

Basically, throwing numbers, it would be:

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 5.000
SSB: 10.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 5.000
SSB: 10.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x regular form): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 9.000
SSJ: 450.000
LSSJ: 900.000

Gogeta: 100.000
SSJ: 500.000
SSB: 1.000.000

Of course I really, really doubt the forms work as multiplier anymore, especially in Gogeta’s case in this movie, but that’s still fun to throw some numbers every now and then.
This looks good. But why do you have SSB as 20x SSJ with Goku and Vegeta but only 2x with Gogeta? And SSJ being 5x Base for Gogeta and 50x for everyone else?

And don't you think LSSJ Broly and SSB Gogeta should have a bigger gap than that?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:01 pm

PFM18 wrote: That falls apart because they are simply constant numbers. Broly's power is constantly growing.
His base power is growing but not his transformations. Besides nowhere in the detailed summaries I read said he grew stronger after turning Super Saiyan and before he fought Gogeta.

Those numbers work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:04 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: That falls apart because they are simply constant numbers. Broly's power is constantly growing.
His base power is growing but not his transformations. Besides nowhere in the detailed summaries I read said he grew stronger after turning Super Saiyan and before he fought Gogeta.

Those numbers work.
It was stated several times that his power had been growing. It doesn't need an additional comment reaffirming it while he is in Super Saiyan. It continues to be true until stated or shown otherwise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:17 pm

emperior wrote:Is Super Saiyan God around 10x of SSJ, or 20x at best? The movie gives me this impression considering how Broly, as soon as he triggers his rage mode is able to beat SSG Vegeta, and Broly was above SSJ Vegeta which is why he was forced to go SSG.
I believe Broly’s form should be around 10x if that’s the Oozaru power, unless the fact that it’s condensed into his normal body makes it that much more formidable? He definitely keeps improving in his form, but Blue Goku was stronger than Broly.

Basically, throwing numbers, it would be:

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 5.000
SSB: 10.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 5.000
SSB: 10.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x regular form): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 9.000
SSJ: 450.000
LSSJ: 900.000

Gogeta: 100.000
SSJ: 500.000
SSB: 1.000.000

Of course I really, really doubt the forms work as multiplier anymore, especially in Gogeta’s case in this movie, but that’s still fun to throw some numbers every now and then.
But why is the SSJ multiplier being used with the power of Rage Broly? The SSJ increases the power of the user's base form, and it was not clear in the movie that Broly used Rage + SSJ (Which would not make much sense, after all this would make him dozens of times stronger than Golden Freeza and was not what we saw in the fight, and I do not think these forms can be combined).

The SSG multiplier looks larger than 20x. Rage Broly (initial and after getting bigger) did not seem stronger than SSG. Vegeta was able to hold his own and did not received any hits and Goku managed to arrest Broly and swap punches (until Broly released more power)
PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: That falls apart because they are simply constant numbers. Broly's power is constantly growing.
His base power is growing but not his transformations. Besides nowhere in the detailed summaries I read said he grew stronger after turning Super Saiyan and before he fought Gogeta.

Those numbers work.
It was stated several times that his power had been growing. It doesn't need an additional comment reaffirming it while he is in Super Saiyan. It continues to be true until stated or shown otherwise.
This does not mean that Broly's power is bound to grow all the time. Look at Black in the anime, it was said that he got stronger after receiving blows, but that did not always happen, only at specific times. Not to mention that in the case of Broly this seems to have a limit, because after he managed to reach Vegeta SSJ, he was completely dominated by SSG and needed the Rage form, which also did not reach Goku Blue (forcing Freeza to kill Paragus).

This also did not happen against Gogeta, because SSJ Broly was forced to use SSJ Full Power and after Gogeta used the SSB, Broly was almost defeated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:25 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: How do you figure he is less than 5x stronger?
Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12
That falls apart because they are simply constant numbers. Broly's power is constantly growing.
That, and Brolys SSJ visuals make it appear to be a SSJ version of his Ikari form. It’s basically like a humanoid Golden Oozaru in Brolys case.
We’ll need to wait for confirmation, but that SSJ form definitely looks far too much like his Ikari form to not be something to do with it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:40 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Broly's Rage mode is said to be him using his Oozaru power in base so that makes it a 10 times boost and he was still weaker than Blue Goku. He then turns Super Saiyan and overwhelms Goku and Vegeta together. Since Super Saiyan is a 50 times boost from his base then Broly is 5 times stronger than his Rage mode as a Super Saiyan.

Broly: 1
-- Rage mode: 10
-- Super Saiyan 50

Goku Blue: 12
That falls apart because they are simply constant numbers. Broly's power is constantly growing.
That, and Brolys SSJ visuals make it appear to be a SSJ version of his Ikari form. It’s basically like a humanoid Golden Oozaru in Brolys case.
We’ll need to wait for confirmation, but that SSJ form definitely looks far too much like his Ikari form to not be something to do with it.
Actually, Broly's Ikari and SSJ forms are considerably different. Broly's model sheet:
We can see that in addition to SSJ Broly not having pupils, his muscles and his body are much smaller than in his Ikari form (in fact, his muscles appear to be exactly the size of the muscles of his base form). So there is no indication that SSJ Broly is Ikari + SSJ

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:44 pm

Actually, looking at it now, it appears that Brolys SSJ form slimmed down compared to Ikari. So does that mean that SSJFP is his take on combining Ikari and SSJ. It would make sense, but then Kale seems to make it a little awkward.

Yeah, had a look just prior to you posting that TheSaiyanGod.. FP Broly seems to fit what I’m saying more then.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:54 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:This does not mean that Broly's power is bound to grow all the time. Look at Black in the anime, it was said that he got stronger after receiving blows, but that did not always happen, only at specific times.
Black had gained power from fighting/taking damage etc, but we never received any indication that his Saiyan gains had suddenly halted at some point. Broly is the same.
Not to mention that in the case of Broly this seems to have a limit, because after he managed to reach Vegeta SSJ, he was completely dominated by SSG and needed the Rage form, which also did not reach Goku Blue (forcing Freeza to kill Paragus).

This also did not happen against Gogeta, because SSJ Broly was forced to use SSJ Full Power and after Gogeta used the SSB, Broly was almost defeated
All that means is that his gains at that particular time weren't fast enough to catch up to SSG, or Gogeta's SSB or whatever the case may be. Goku and Vegeta can instantly jump into a new form magnitudes stronger than the previous, and Broly's gains can only do so much, so new forms of his own are simply needed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:56 pm

I updated my numbers. I wrongfully considered Broly’s Super Saiyan to stack onto his rage form, but as pointed out there’s no indication it does, not even in the sheets. Which means that now I will consider Broly’s green form to be the Oozaru power stacked upon Super Saiyan (which explains the different hair color and added mass).
I also fixed Gogeta to follow the usual multipliers.

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 12.000 (new regular 1.200)
SSJ: 60.000 (50x of regular 1.200)
LSSJ: 600.000

Freeza: 10.000
Golden Freeza: 20.000

Gogeta: 1.500
SSJ: 75.000
SSB: 3.000.000

With these numbers it’s also shown how not even with their powers combined Goku and Vegeta could reach Broly’s power when they teamed up.
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