Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:28 pm

emperior wrote:I updated my numbers. I wrongfully considered Broly’s Super Saiyan to stack onto his rage form, but as pointed out there’s no indication it does, not even in the sheets. Which means that now I will consider Broly’s green form to be the Oozaru power stacked upon Super Saiyan (which explains the different hair color and added mass).
I also fixed Gogeta to follow the usual multipliers.

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 12.000 (new regular 1.200)
SSJ: 60.000 (50x of regular 1.200)
LSSJ: 600.000

Freeza: 10.000
Golden Freeza: 20.000

Gogeta: 1.500
SSJ: 75.000
SSB: 3.000.000

With these numbers it’s also shown how not even with their powers combined Goku and Vegeta could reach Broly’s power when they teamed up.
Well, I do disagree with the very conservative multipliers for SSG and SSB, but that's just your choice and it doesn't really explicitly contradict anything. However, it appeared to be clear that Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta considering he was able to fairly easily dodge Broly's ki blasts and what not, while Goku and Vegeta individually as SSB's just got curbstomped.

I still think you did a good job though

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:03 pm

PFM18 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:This does not mean that Broly's power is bound to grow all the time. Look at Black in the anime, it was said that he got stronger after receiving blows, but that did not always happen, only at specific times.
Black had gained power from fighting/taking damage etc, but we never received any indication that his Saiyan gains had suddenly halted at some point. Broly is the same.
Not to mention that in the case of Broly this seems to have a limit, because after he managed to reach Vegeta SSJ, he was completely dominated by SSG and needed the Rage form, which also did not reach Goku Blue (forcing Freeza to kill Paragus).

This also did not happen against Gogeta, because SSJ Broly was forced to use SSJ Full Power and after Gogeta used the SSB, Broly was almost defeated
All that means is that his gains at that particular time weren't fast enough to catch up to SSG, or Gogeta's SSB or whatever the case may be. Goku and Vegeta can instantly jump into a new form magnitudes stronger than the previous, and Broly's gains can only do so much, so new forms of his own are simply needed.
In fact, we have no indication that Black's gains were constant, despite all that discourse about getting stronger after receiving damage (we saw this happening in specific cases where Black explicitly says he got stronger while raising his Ki and gains the upper hand in the fight).

The same for Broly, the fact that he gets stronger in some moments of the fight (which, as in Black's case, is explicitly said, and an example is the very fight against Vegeta base / SSJ) does not mean that he always had gains . Or at least, they were not really relevant gains. It seemed to me more that he was adapting to the fighting style of humans at the same time that he had a few gains, than actually getting much stronger
PFM18 wrote:
emperior wrote:I updated my numbers. I wrongfully considered Broly’s Super Saiyan to stack onto his rage form, but as pointed out there’s no indication it does, not even in the sheets. Which means that now I will consider Broly’s green form to be the Oozaru power stacked upon Super Saiyan (which explains the different hair color and added mass).
I also fixed Gogeta to follow the usual multipliers.

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 12.000 (new regular 1.200)
SSJ: 60.000 (50x of regular 1.200)
LSSJ: 600.000

Freeza: 10.000
Golden Freeza: 20.000

Gogeta: 1.500
SSJ: 75.000
SSB: 3.000.000

With these numbers it’s also shown how not even with their powers combined Goku and Vegeta could reach Broly’s power when they teamed up.
Well, I do disagree with the very conservative multipliers for SSG and SSB, but that's just your choice and it doesn't really explicitly contradict anything. However, it appeared to be clear that Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta considering he was able to fairly easily dodge Broly's ki blasts and what not, while Goku and Vegeta individually as SSB's just got curbstomped.

I still think you did a good job though
I agree with that. SSB, for everything we saw during the ToP, really seems to be much stronger than the SSG. And the difference between SSG and SSJ forms is an abyss (though it is difficult to measure how much)

I also agree that Gogeta's base apparently was stronger than Goku / Vegeta SSB, considering he had no trouble keeping up with SSJ Broly's speed and easily bounced his Ki Blasts (though that was something Goku did, too, but he did not with so much ease)

EDIT: Sorry for the double post
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:05 pm

PFM18 wrote:
emperior wrote:I updated my numbers. I wrongfully considered Broly’s Super Saiyan to stack onto his rage form, but as pointed out there’s no indication it does, not even in the sheets. Which means that now I will consider Broly’s green form to be the Oozaru power stacked upon Super Saiyan (which explains the different hair color and added mass).
I also fixed Gogeta to follow the usual multipliers.

Vegeta: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSG: 10.000
SSB: 20.000

Broly: 5, 10, 500, 600
Rage (10x): 6.000, 7.000 and so on until around 12.000 (new regular 1.200)
SSJ: 60.000 (50x of regular 1.200)
LSSJ: 600.000

Freeza: 10.000
Golden Freeza: 20.000

Gogeta: 1.500
SSJ: 75.000
SSB: 3.000.000

With these numbers it’s also shown how not even with their powers combined Goku and Vegeta could reach Broly’s power when they teamed up.
Well, I do disagree with the very conservative multipliers for SSG and SSB, but that's just your choice and it doesn't really explicitly contradict anything. However, it appeared to be clear that Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta considering he was able to fairly easily dodge Broly's ki blasts and what not, while Goku and Vegeta individually as SSB's just got curbstomped.

I still think you did a good job though
I agree with that. SSB, for everything we saw during the ToP, really seems to be much stronger than the SSG.

I also agree that Gogeta's base apparently was stronger than Goku / Vegeta SSB, considering he had no trouble keeping up with SSJ Broly's speed and easily bounced his Ki Blasts (though that was something Goku did, too, but he did not with so much ease)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:03 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Not sure if this was already posted here, but Herms did an awesome breakdown of the strongest fusion debacle.

In my opinion, recent Information always takes precedence, so I would say there is fundamentally no difference between those fusions.

Edit: As a bonus, the wafer stickers suggest Blue Gogeta is equal to Ultra Instinct Goku.
Wouldn't be surprised if this was actually the case. Seeing the huge power difference between red and blue. Wonder what the power difference is between blue and UI?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:53 pm

The English sub is out and Goku says Broly is indeed *probably* stronger than Beerus. And considering that Gogeta Blue utterly destoyed him:

SsjB Gogeta >>> Broly > Beerus.

Finally.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:50 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:The English sub is out and Goku says Broly is indeed *probably* stronger than Beerus. And considering that Gogeta Blue utterly destoyed him:

SsjB Gogeta >>> Broly > Beerus.

Finally.
The "probably" changes a lot compared to "possibly" which is what I initially thought it was. With that verbatim, we don't have to necessarily believe that there was a retcon as far as the relationship between Beerus and Jiren. Now, it seems that:

Broly>Jiren>Beerus>Merged Zamasu

IMO

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:34 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/moepara/stat ... 0388739072

More evidence to suggest broly > jiren.

Freeza states that broly is the strongest person up to now in the novel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:40 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/moepara/stat ... 0388739072

More evidence to suggest broly > jiren.

Freeza states that broly is the strongest person up to now in the novel.
Novel has additional information regarding the movie. But do they have any influence from Toriyama? Because the Novel's writer is another person

Not to mention that in the film (which is supposed to be the most reliable source), Goku only says that Broly is perhaps stronger than Beerus (even if we consider the '' probably '', Goku did not give as certain), while Jiren is proven to be much more strong that Beerus

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:44 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/moepara/stat ... 0388739072

More evidence to suggest broly > jiren.

Freeza states that broly is the strongest person up to now in the novel.
Novel has additional information regarding the movie. But do they have any influence from Toriyama? Because the Novel's writer is another person

Not to mention that in the film (which is supposed to be the most reliable source), Goku only says that Broly is perhaps stronger than Beerus (even if we consider the '' probably '', Goku did not give as certain), while Jiren is proven to be much more strong that Beerus
Well have multiple sources where broly is stated to be the strongest opponent. There is nothing to deny about broly > Jiren. As far as jiren being MUCH stronger than beerus, no... that is not a fact but an opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:52 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/moepara/stat ... 0388739072

More evidence to suggest broly > jiren.

Freeza states that broly is the strongest person up to now in the novel.
Novel has additional information regarding the movie. But do they have any influence from Toriyama? Because the Novel's writer is another person

Not to mention that in the film (which is supposed to be the most reliable source), Goku only says that Broly is perhaps stronger than Beerus (even if we consider the '' probably '', Goku did not give as certain), while Jiren is proven to be much more strong that Beerus
Well have multiple sources where broly is stated to be the strongest opponent. There is nothing to deny about broly > Jiren. As far as jiren being MUCH stronger than beerus, no... that is not a fact but an opinion.
Yes, some magazines, but do they have more value than dialogues from the film itself? V-Jump says SSJ Rosé of Black was just his ordinary SSJ form, but was this said at some point in the anime?

If in the movie, Broly just MAY be stronger than Beerus (who is definitely not Goku's strongest enemy, considering we had several statements in the anime about Jiren being the biggest threat and still getting much stronger at the end), then Broly is not the strongest enemy.

About Jiren being MUCH stronger than Broly, it's not necessarily an opinion, it was something that anime implied

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:05 pm

PFM18 wrote: It was stated several times that his power had been growing. It doesn't need an additional comment reaffirming it while he is in Super Saiyan. It continues to be true until stated or shown otherwise.
The multiplier was never stated to change...

Oozaru form is always 10 and Super Saiyan is always 50.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Yes, some magazines, but do they have more value than dialogues from the film itself? V-Jump says SSJ Rosé of Black was just his ordinary SSJ form, but was this said at some point in the anime?
Yes, in episode 58 AFAIR.

Also, put me in the camp of Jiren > Broly. Jiren was stronger than 3rd UI Omen Goku (Who got a very similar statement Broly did in the movie) and he then got even stronger breaking his limits.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:15 pm

Jiren is only "proven" to be stronger than Beerus in the anime and even there they conveniently went out of their way to not make an explicit comp
e.g

Beerus in the show saying "he's beyond me"


We have no idea how strong jiren is in toriyama's notes. Based on the all the promo material + dialogue in the movie/novel, I am inclined to believe that

Broly > Beerus > Jiren

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:The multiplier was never stated to change...

Oozaru form is always 10 and Super Saiyan is always 50.
What? That was never disputed? This response just doesnt make any sense
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:33 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Jiren is only "proven" to be stronger than Beerus in the anime and even there they conveniently went out of their way to not make an explicit comp
e.g

Beerus in the show saying "he's beyond me"


We have no idea how strong jiren is in toriyama's notes. Based on the all the promo material + dialogue in the movie/novel, I am inclined to believe that

Broly > Beerus > Jiren
Jiren both in the manga and in the anime was able to hold his own against MUI Goku (in some moments, even overcome), which is definitely above the GoDs.

In the anime, Jiren was far from showing his full power and yet he was already referred to as someone who had the same level or even higher than a GoD (this GoD was stronger than Beerus, as Whis said in the rumors before the tournament ).

In the end Jiren broke his limits and got much stronger than he was before (as I said, before he was someone = or > the GoDs, his bio on the TOEI website says that too), consequently getting much stronger than the others GoDs. I can't see why not to consider information that has become so explicit in ToP.

Considering that Broly just CAN be stronger than Beerus, so he is not in Jiren's level

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:08 am

A simple "He's stronger than anyone I fought" from Goku would've been nice

Promo material isn't enough when promo material tells me UI Goku and LB Jiren would stomp Broly

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:17 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Novel has additional information regarding the movie. But do they have any influence from Toriyama? Because the Novel's writer is another person

Not to mention that in the film (which is supposed to be the most reliable source), Goku only says that Broly is perhaps stronger than Beerus (even if we consider the '' probably '', Goku did not give as certain), while Jiren is proven to be much more strong that Beerus
Well have multiple sources where broly is stated to be the strongest opponent. There is nothing to deny about broly > Jiren. As far as jiren being MUCH stronger than beerus, no... that is not a fact but an opinion.
Yes, some magazines, but do they have more value than dialogues from the film itself? V-Jump says SSJ Rosé of Black was just his ordinary SSJ form, but was this said at some point in the anime?

If in the movie, Broly just MAY be stronger than Beerus (who is definitely not Goku's strongest enemy, considering we had several statements in the anime about Jiren being the biggest threat and still getting much stronger at the end), then Broly is not the strongest enemy.

About Jiren being MUCH stronger than Broly, it's not necessarily an opinion, it was something that anime implied
In the subs I saw, the verbatim used was "probably" not "may", which is a completely different statement because it expresses a level of certainty. Which makes sense, because it doesnt necessarily imply that they are especially close and Jiren needs to fit between them for this to work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:26 am

PFM18 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Well have multiple sources where broly is stated to be the strongest opponent. There is nothing to deny about broly > Jiren. As far as jiren being MUCH stronger than beerus, no... that is not a fact but an opinion.
Yes, some magazines, but do they have more value than dialogues from the film itself? V-Jump says SSJ Rosé of Black was just his ordinary SSJ form, but was this said at some point in the anime?

If in the movie, Broly just MAY be stronger than Beerus (who is definitely not Goku's strongest enemy, considering we had several statements in the anime about Jiren being the biggest threat and still getting much stronger at the end), then Broly is not the strongest enemy.

About Jiren being MUCH stronger than Broly, it's not necessarily an opinion, it was something that anime implied
In the subs I saw, the verbatim used was "probably" not "may", which is a completely different statement because it expresses a level of certainty. Which makes sense, because it doesnt necessarily imply that they are especially close and Jiren needs to fit between them for this to work.
In summaries it was just said that Broly may be stronger than Beerus, not probably (that despite being something more precise than '' may '', is still not total certainty). Although the subs apparently have no errors, I think the best person to answer this would be Herms

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:01 am

PFM18 wrote: What? That was never disputed? This response just doesnt make any sense
You are the one not making any sense.

His Super Saiyan form being 5 times stronger than his Rage/Oozaru form is pretty much a fact.

Why does that fall apart?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 am

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: What? That was never disputed? This response just doesnt make any sense
You are the one not making any sense.

His Super Saiyan form being 5 times stronger than his Rage/Oozaru form is pretty much a fact.

Why does that fall apart?
I never disputed the multipliers. It is simply that his power is constantly changing and increasing and you didn't account for that

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:22 am

So I just saw base Gogeta vs Broly and it's not even a minute long and he just evades Broly's attacks then turns Super Saiyan.

SS Gogeta doesn't even stomp SS Broly. Maybe we where to quick to say base Gogeta > Goku Blue?

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