Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:01 pm

PFM18 wrote:
HeroR wrote:I used the manga in the case because it's the closet reference we have to all the gods power. Even if we didn't used it, nothing suggests that the Gods of Destruction are vastly more powerful than other. And if we used the anime, Whis actually said the mortal that a God of Destruction is a god that is stronger than Beerus. Now we can go with Beerus' 'it was just arm wrestling', but Whis is by far the most trustworthy one between the two and he had no reason to troll Beerus in that moment. So I was using the manga to give Beerus the benefit of the doubt the anime makes the Jiren > Beerus even clearer.

The light novel never claimed that Broly was stronger than Beerus since it used the same words as the movie, 'probably'. Also, that isn't really saying much that base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since Jiren flexed Blue Kaioken x20 and the equally as powerful Evolved Blue from Vegeta at the same while they were constantly breaking their own limits. He then took on 17 who is within Blue range and then smashed Golden Freeza. And he was still holding back while during this, while Broly couldn't apparently get Freeza out of gold. And if we're going to used, 'Jiren didn't force fusion', we can equally say, 'Broly didn't forced UI out of Goku', despite Jiren being able to do it twice. Heck, Kelfa did it.

So going by lore and feats within the anime, Jiren wins. Also, Broly didn't compete against Blue Gogeta. He got his ass kicked. It was basically UI Goku vs Jiren before he powered up.
It's still not relevant to the anime. We don't even necessarily need to believe that one is way stronger than another, or the rest, of the GoDs. Broly is stated to be the strongest foe they have ever faced, and Goku can assert with a level of certainty that he is stronger than Beerus. Therefore, he's stronger than Jiren. If we don't take Whis's words at face value, then we really can't conclude that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in the first place. So yes, we take Whis's word for it. But Goku saying "probably" indicates that most likely, Broly is stronger, but the slightest uncertainty can just be attributed to the chance that Beerus is just way stronger than Goku had thought or estimated. Because again, Goku has never seen Beerus's full-power.

It claimed he was probably the strongest foe ever. It's pretty damn clear where Broly stands compared to Jiren or anyone else that they have faced before. And the other material says it definitively without ANY uncertainty. Jiren beating KKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta doesn't show anything more than his suppressed self being a couple dozens of times stronger than SSB. That isn't even remotely comparable to Gogeta being stronger than his fusees in Base, and yet even with Broly as a SSJ. That means that at a bare minimum, Broly not even at full-power is over 50x stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. And then, when he goes LSSJ/Full-Power, he forces this obscenely strong Gogeta into SSB. Trying to claim that Broly is weaker just because he didn't knock Freeza out of Golden is nothing more than a technicality. He beat the absolute shit out of Freeza, that's the point there.

I mean, again, I don't like to go by these "feats" shenanigans, but if we do that, then Broly wins too. Broly wins by statements from supplementary materials, and more impressively forced Gogeta into SSB, who was stronger than his fusees in Base. Sure, did he get his ass kicked? Yeah. But it was at least a fight on some level, and he DEFINITELY at a minimum forced Gogeta to use Blue. Considering SSG was deemed not enough, LSSJ Broly has to be a minimum of 1,000+ times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.
ZombieVito wrote:
HeroR wrote:It's weird that people here are using a line from a promo to argued what was said in the actual movie.

In the movie, Goku said that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. For the sake of argument, let's say pure power-wise that he is.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).
Indeed, he isn't in their tier.

SS Broly is not event 5 times stronger as Blue Goku.
That's not true at all. Base Gogeta was shown to be stronger than his SSB fusees, and SSJ Gogeta was even with Broly. Even if that was true, SSJ isn't even Broly's max power.
Hulk10 wrote:Jiren could well be stronger than Broly right now but if Broly (new Broly) were to achieve SSJ4 then he'd stomp Jiren.
Considering he doesn't have SSJ4, and it doesn't even exist in the main continuity of Dragon Ball, I don't think this is really something to consider.
I'd say it is as SSJ4 is part of the franchise.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:10 pm

Hulk10 wrote:I'd say it is as SSJ4 is part of the franchise.
It appeared in a "cool side story" according to the series creator. It isn't to be considered when talking about the main continuity, with Toriyama's vision.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:25 pm

PFM18 wrote:
HeroR wrote:I used the manga in the case because it's the closet reference we have to all the gods power. Even if we didn't used it, nothing suggests that the Gods of Destruction are vastly more powerful than other. And if we used the anime, Whis actually said the mortal that a God of Destruction is a god that is stronger than Beerus. Now we can go with Beerus' 'it was just arm wrestling', but Whis is by far the most trustworthy one between the two and he had no reason to troll Beerus in that moment. So I was using the manga to give Beerus the benefit of the doubt the anime makes the Jiren > Beerus even clearer.

The light novel never claimed that Broly was stronger than Beerus since it used the same words as the movie, 'probably'. Also, that isn't really saying much that base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since Jiren flexed Blue Kaioken x20 and the equally as powerful Evolved Blue from Vegeta at the same while they were constantly breaking their own limits. He then took on 17 who is within Blue range and then smashed Golden Freeza. And he was still holding back while during this, while Broly couldn't apparently get Freeza out of gold. And if we're going to used, 'Jiren didn't force fusion', we can equally say, 'Broly didn't forced UI out of Goku', despite Jiren being able to do it twice. Heck, Kelfa did it.

So going by lore and feats within the anime, Jiren wins. Also, Broly didn't compete against Blue Gogeta. He got his ass kicked. It was basically UI Goku vs Jiren before he powered up.
It's still not relevant to the anime. We don't even necessarily need to believe that one is way stronger than another, or the rest, of the GoDs. Broly is stated to be the strongest foe they have ever faced, and Goku can assert with a level of certainty that he is stronger than Beerus. Therefore, he's stronger than Jiren. If we don't take Whis's words at face value, then we really can't conclude that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in the first place. So yes, we take Whis's word for it. But Goku saying "probably" indicates that most likely, Broly is stronger, but the slightest uncertainty can just be attributed to the chance that Beerus is just way stronger than Goku had thought or estimated. Because again, Goku has never seen Beerus's full-power.

It claimed he was probably the strongest foe ever. It's pretty damn clear where Broly stands compared to Jiren or anyone else that they have faced before. And the other material says it definitively without ANY uncertainty. Jiren beating KKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta doesn't show anything more than his suppressed self being a couple dozens of times stronger than SSB. That isn't even remotely comparable to Gogeta being stronger than his fusees in Base, and yet even with Broly as a SSJ. That means that at a bare minimum, Broly not even at full-power is over 50x stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. And then, when he goes LSSJ/Full-Power, he forces this obscenely strong Gogeta into SSB. Trying to claim that Broly is weaker just because he didn't knock Freeza out of Golden is nothing more than a technicality. He beat the absolute shit out of Freeza, that's the point there.

I mean, again, I don't like to go by these "feats" shenanigans, but if we do that, then Broly wins too. Broly wins by statements from supplementary materials, and more impressively forced Gogeta into SSB, who was stronger than his fusees in Base. Sure, did he get his ass kicked? Yeah. But it was at least a fight on some level, and he DEFINITELY at a minimum forced Gogeta to use Blue. Considering SSG was deemed not enough, LSSJ Broly has to be a minimum of 1,000+ times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.
ZombieVito wrote:
HeroR wrote:It's weird that people here are using a line from a promo to argued what was said in the actual movie.

In the movie, Goku said that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. For the sake of argument, let's say pure power-wise that he is.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).
Indeed, he isn't in their tier.

SS Broly is not event 5 times stronger as Blue Goku.
That's not true at all. Base Gogeta was shown to be stronger than his SSB fusees, and SSJ Gogeta was even with Broly. Even if that was true, SSJ isn't even Broly's max power.
Hulk10 wrote:Jiren could well be stronger than Broly right now but if Broly (new Broly) were to achieve SSJ4 then he'd stomp Jiren.
Considering he doesn't have SSJ4, and it doesn't even exist in the main continuity of Dragon Ball, I don't think this is really something to consider.
SS Broly is 50 times base and Rage mode is 10. Broly in is Rage mode is weaker than Blue Goku so the difference in Super Saiyan is less than 5 times. It's simple math.

SS Gogeta was not equal to SS Broly and I never even mentioned Super Saiyan Full Power. He's obviously GoD tier in that form as stated in the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:36 pm

Why are you guys comparing anime statements/lore/feats to movie? They clearly aren't the same continuity considering goku and vegeta didn't have kaioken or blue evolution, unless you want to argue they decided to fight ssj broly at 5% of their true capabilities which probably isn't the hill you want to die on?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:45 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Why are you guys comparing anime statements/lore/feats to movie? They clearly aren't the same continuity considering goku and vegeta didn't have kaioken or blue evolution, unless you want to argue they decided to fight ssj broly at 5% of their true capabilities which probably isn't the hill you want to die on?
The movie isn't in either continuity, does that mean we should ignore it and not talk about it entirely with power scaling?
ZombieVito wrote: SS Broly is 50 times base and Rage mode is 10. Broly in is Rage mode is weaker than Blue Goku so the difference in Super Saiyan is less than 5 times. It's simple math.

SS Gogeta was not equal to SS Broly and I never even mentioned Super Saiyan Full Power. He's obviously GoD tier in that form as stated in the movie.
I'm well aware of your "simple math" that you have been throwing around. It's still ultimately head canon and the basic premise would only apply to when Broly initially went SSJ, considering the entire time he was getting stronger.

SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were relative to each other. And Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta, therefore SSJ Broly>50x SSB Goku/Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:52 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:I'd say it is as SSJ4 is part of the franchise.
It appeared in a "cool side story" according to the series creator. It isn't to be considered when talking about the main continuity, with Toriyama's vision.
Its still a part of the franchise and thus relevant.
Why are you guys comparing anime statements/lore/feats to movie? They clearly aren't the same continuity considering goku and vegeta didn't have kaioken or blue evolution, unless you want to argue they decided to fight ssj broly at 5% of their true capabilities which probably isn't the hill you want to die on?
The movie is Toriyama's attempt to add Broly to the main storyline.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:58 pm

I didn't say don't discuss scaling but bringing up GoD Toppo and Blue evolution Vegeta in a movie where Blue Evol vegeta doesn't exist, meaning GoD Toppo also could not have been in Toriyama's events of ToP

Jiren beating up kk and ssbe isn't a fair comp to use since those forms don't even exist for broly to fight

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:26 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:I didn't say don't discuss scaling but bringing up GoD Toppo and Blue evolution Vegeta in a movie where Blue Evol vegeta doesn't exist, meaning GoD Toppo also could not have been in Toriyama's events of ToP

Jiren beating up kk and ssbe isn't a fair comp to use since those forms don't even exist for broly to fight
Oh yeah, that's fair. As far as Toriyama is concerned, Goku and Vegeta were using their full-power in the movie. In anime terms, I just treat it as though they were using SSBKK and SSBE respectively when comparing it to prior events.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:29 pm

PFM18 wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:I didn't say don't discuss scaling but bringing up GoD Toppo and Blue evolution Vegeta in a movie where Blue Evol vegeta doesn't exist, meaning GoD Toppo also could not have been in Toriyama's events of ToP

Jiren beating up kk and ssbe isn't a fair comp to use since those forms don't even exist for broly to fight
Oh yeah, that's fair. As far as Toriyama is concerned, Goku and Vegeta were using their full-power in the movie. In anime terms, I just treat it as though they were using SSBKK and SSBE respectively when comparing it to prior events.
A very fair viewpoint. More than likely if TOEI did a retelling Blue KK and Beyond blue would be used against Broly. So it really doesn't matter cause the result would still be the same. Regardless of those forms being used, due to narrative, Broly would still be way above Goku and Vegeta.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Miracles wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Except for the fact that we do not know how much time passed after the ToP and how much Goku and Vegeta got stronger after the tournament.

It is impossible to make any comparison between Broly and Jiren using Gogeta / MUI, simply because Gogeta destroyed Broly completely without receiving any hits. Even if MUI was weaker than Gogeta, that does not prove Broly is stronger because SSB Gogeta had absolutely no work with his enemy

I do not think it is as simple as current enemy> previous enemy.

Whenever this happened, we had proof of that. Androids defeating SSJ Vegeta (who was much stronger than the SSJ who defeated Freeza) and then being overtaken by Cell, then Boo being able to overcome Goku SSJ3, the most powerful transformation at that moment.

In that case, Broly did not show anything to be superior to Jiren, except for phrases of promotional materials (which do not have the same value as the film)
It doesn't matter if Goku and Vegeta got stronger by an inch. Each of their modes is greater than their TOP versions. In order to compensate Goku and vegeta's strength gains they must face a stronger villain. This is always a factual plot point of Dragonball's narrative. It can't be anything else. This means Broly would of faced a stronger UI version than the one Jiren fought. Automatically making Broly stronger than Jiren. A fusion is an overpowered trump card, there is no way from a story point of view or from logic that a past TOP UI would be stronger than a current multiplied Goku and Vegeta blue fusion.
Right, but we have absolutely no statement between Gogeta and MUI Goku to make any kind of comparison.

And just as it makes no sense to say that Jiren> Broly just because Goku did not use the MUI against Broly, it also makes no sense to say that Broly> Jiren just because Broly supposedly faced someone more powerful than MUI Goku (which makes no difference because Broly could not even touch SSB Gogeta)
The point is the narration. This is the first time a single enemy forced Goku and Vegeta to go against their custom and fuse. Do you know when the last time Goku even considered using fusion against one enemy? That's right, against the one to whom Broly was vaguely measured to, Beerus. That alone tells you that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku faced so far. No way is Goku going to face someone weaker than before in order to catch his future opponent in Beerus. Enemies have to be stronger than the last since in order for story to progress to catch Beerus in the final countdown.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:40 pm

You are forgetting Zamasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm

It's pretty clear that Jiren is on another level from Broly. We know that Full Power Jiren is on a different level from the Hakaishin, and Broly is only possibly stronger than Beerus. And Limit Breaker Jiren is far more powerful than even that.

Keep in mind Jiren forced Goku to use Ultra Instinct, but Broly was likely just not strong enough to force Goku to use it, so they had to resort to Fusion.

Promotional material is not always reliable. They were just hyping Broly up for sales.

Don't use the x50 for the SSJ boost anymore. It's a very outdated line that is likely no longer valid: remember the 6 for SSG Goku and 10 for Beerus line by Toriyama, guys? It's no longer a thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:38 pm

PFM18 wrote: I'm well aware of your "simple math" that you have been throwing around. It's still ultimately head canon and the basic premise would only apply to when Broly initially went SSJ, considering the entire time he was getting stronger.

SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were relative to each other. And Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta, therefore SSJ Broly>50x SSB Goku/Vegeta.
How the hell is it head canon when we have official multipliers for both forms?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:33 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: I'm well aware of your "simple math" that you have been throwing around. It's still ultimately head canon and the basic premise would only apply to when Broly initially went SSJ, considering the entire time he was getting stronger.

SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were relative to each other. And Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta, therefore SSJ Broly>50x SSB Goku/Vegeta.
How the hell is it head canon when we have official multipliers for both forms?
We have official multipliers for a form that just debuted in the movie?

Either way you dont account for his perpetual gains

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:50 pm

PFM18 wrote: Either way you dont account for his perpetual gains
It's stated to use the power of the Oozaru transformation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:58 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:I didn't say don't discuss scaling but bringing up GoD Toppo and Blue evolution Vegeta in a movie where Blue Evol vegeta doesn't exist, meaning GoD Toppo also could not have been in Toriyama's events of ToP

Jiren beating up kk and ssbe isn't a fair comp to use since those forms don't even exist for broly to fight
Oh yeah, that's fair. As far as Toriyama is concerned, Goku and Vegeta were using their full-power in the movie. In anime terms, I just treat it as though they were using SSBKK and SSBE respectively when comparing it to prior events.
A very fair viewpoint. More than likely if TOEI did a retelling Blue KK and Beyond blue would be used against Broly. So it really doesn't matter cause the result would still be the same. Regardless of those forms being used, due to narrative, Broly would still be way above Goku and Vegeta.
In Toriyama's head, SSB KK and SSBE does not exist. So he figured that SSJ and Broly would only be more powerful than the SSB forms of Goku and Vegeta.

If the film were adapted and TOEI wanted to include SSB KK and SSBE, then they would have to adapt the narrative to fit the two transformations in a way that does not affect the main narrative (Gogeta Vs Broly). But that does not mean that in a hypothetical scenario, we will not treat these forms as more powerful than Blue
The point is the narration. This is the first time a single enemy forced Goku and Vegeta to go against their custom and fuse. Do you know when the last time Goku even considered using fusion against one enemy? That's right, against the one to whom Broly was vaguely measured to, Beerus. That alone tells you that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku faced so far. No way is Goku going to face someone weaker than before in order to catch his future opponent in Beerus. Enemies have to be stronger than the last since in order for story to progress to catch Beerus in the final countdown.
First, we would have to consider Vegettto / Gogeta> MUI, and we have no statement to compare the power of the two.

And Goku can not just wait for the MUI to appear at any time, he used the most viable output at that time, I do not understand how that proves anything.
As I said, this current enemy > previous enemy thing is subjective, not an absolute rule

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:12 am

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Either way you dont account for his perpetual gains
It's stated to use the power of the Oozaru transformation.
I don't think that was the exact verbatim used and it doesnt necessarily mean it's a 10x multiplier.

Again, regardless Broly is definitely way more than 5x stronger than Goku/Vegeta's SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:25 am

First, we would have to consider Vegettto / Gogeta> MUI, and we have no statement to compare the power of the two.
It's likely that MUI is much stronger than fusion, given that Vegito (in the anime) was stronger than, but not that much stronger than, Merged Zamasu, who Beerus thought he could easily beat. I doubt Merged Zamasu was Hakaishin level at any rate.

Yes, it's true that Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger since then, but I doubt it would be that much of a difference.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:25 am

PFM18 wrote: I don't think that was the exact verbatim used and it doesnt necessarily mean it's a 10x multiplier.

Again, regardless Broly is definitely way more than 5x stronger than Goku/Vegeta's SSB.
Freeza is in good spirits again; he asks Paragus what is happening, and Paragus theorizes that Broly has gained the ability to control the power of the Great Ape in human form, without any of the associated disadvantages of the bulky transformation. There is however a downside: nothing can be done to control Broly now.
It would be really hard to misinterpret this since it comes from someone who is fluent in Japanese but I guess we should wait for subs.

Broly does get beat up by SS Gogeta at the beginning but then kinda holds up so I guess he does get stronger but the multiplier shouldn't change.
Loputousu wrote: It's likely that MUI is much stronger than fusion, given that Vegito (in the anime) was stronger than, but not that much stronger than, Merged Zamasu, who Beerus thought he could easily beat. I doubt Merged Zamasu was Hakaishin level at any rate.
Beerus never thinks or says this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:40 am

PFM18 wrote:
HeroR wrote:I used the manga in the case because it's the closet reference we have to all the gods power. Even if we didn't used it, nothing suggests that the Gods of Destruction are vastly more powerful than other. And if we used the anime, Whis actually said the mortal that a God of Destruction is a god that is stronger than Beerus. Now we can go with Beerus' 'it was just arm wrestling', but Whis is by far the most trustworthy one between the two and he had no reason to troll Beerus in that moment. So I was using the manga to give Beerus the benefit of the doubt the anime makes the Jiren > Beerus even clearer.

The light novel never claimed that Broly was stronger than Beerus since it used the same words as the movie, 'probably'. Also, that isn't really saying much that base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since Jiren flexed Blue Kaioken x20 and the equally as powerful Evolved Blue from Vegeta at the same while they were constantly breaking their own limits. He then took on 17 who is within Blue range and then smashed Golden Freeza. And he was still holding back while during this, while Broly couldn't apparently get Freeza out of gold. And if we're going to used, 'Jiren didn't force fusion', we can equally say, 'Broly didn't forced UI out of Goku', despite Jiren being able to do it twice. Heck, Kelfa did it.

So going by lore and feats within the anime, Jiren wins. Also, Broly didn't compete against Blue Gogeta. He got his ass kicked. It was basically UI Goku vs Jiren before he powered up.
It's still not relevant to the anime. We don't even necessarily need to believe that one is way stronger than another, or the rest, of the GoDs. Broly is stated to be the strongest foe they have ever faced, and Goku can assert with a level of certainty that he is stronger than Beerus. Therefore, he's stronger than Jiren. If we don't take Whis's words at face value, then we really can't conclude that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in the first place. So yes, we take Whis's word for it. But Goku saying "probably" indicates that most likely, Broly is stronger, but the slightest uncertainty can just be attributed to the chance that Beerus is just way stronger than Goku had thought or estimated. Because again, Goku has never seen Beerus's full-power.

It claimed he was probably the strongest foe ever. It's pretty damn clear where Broly stands compared to Jiren or anyone else that they have faced before. And the other material says it definitively without ANY uncertainty. Jiren beating KKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta doesn't show anything more than his suppressed self being a couple dozens of times stronger than SSB. That isn't even remotely comparable to Gogeta being stronger than his fusees in Base, and yet even with Broly as a SSJ. That means that at a bare minimum, Broly not even at full-power is over 50x stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. And then, when he goes LSSJ/Full-Power, he forces this obscenely strong Gogeta into SSB. Trying to claim that Broly is weaker just because he didn't knock Freeza out of Golden is nothing more than a technicality. He beat the absolute shit out of Freeza, that's the point there.

I mean, again, I don't like to go by these "feats" shenanigans, but if we do that, then Broly wins too. Broly wins by statements from supplementary materials, and more impressively forced Gogeta into SSB, who was stronger than his fusees in Base. Sure, did he get his ass kicked? Yeah. But it was at least a fight on some level, and he DEFINITELY at a minimum forced Gogeta to use Blue. Considering SSG was deemed not enough, LSSJ Broly has to be a minimum of 1,000+ times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.
ZombieVito wrote:
HeroR wrote:It's weird that people here are using a line from a promo to argued what was said in the actual movie.

In the movie, Goku said that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. For the sake of argument, let's say pure power-wise that he is.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).
Indeed, he isn't in their tier.

SS Broly is not event 5 times stronger as Blue Goku.
That's not true at all. Base Gogeta was shown to be stronger than his SSB fusees, and SSJ Gogeta was even with Broly. Even if that was true, SSJ isn't even Broly's max power.
Hulk10 wrote:Jiren could well be stronger than Broly right now but if Broly (new Broly) were to achieve SSJ4 then he'd stomp Jiren.
Considering he doesn't have SSJ4, and it doesn't even exist in the main continuity of Dragon Ball, I don't think this is really something to consider.
It is especially when we considered how big of a boost just the weakest form of Omen is.

In 110, Omen was able to fight on par with a severely suppressed Jiren that bodied Blue Kaioken x20 with a Spirit Bomb. Keep in mind, the Spirit Bomb used on Jiren was created by Goku had to be stronger than himself in order to do anything to Jiren and Goku thought it was strong enough to defeat him. So, for the sake of argument, let's say Spirit Bomb was Kaioken x20 (x3), I'm using a x3 instead of x2 because I'm going with Goku learning his lesson after Freeza survived a Spirit Bomb at 50% power. According to both Whis and Tien, Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb wouldn't have allowed him to fight Jiren as well as he did in 110. Meaning, the weakest form of Omen is stronger than Blue Kaioken x20 + Spirit Bomb, which for this argument is three times stronger than Blue Kaioken x20. So Omen would be in this case would be a lot more powerful than a Blue Kaioken x80. And Jiren with barely trying beat that form of Omen. So even if Gogeta is stronger than Blue Kaioken x20, it's questionable if he would be stronger than the multiplier of Omen that Jiren scales to.

And again, only a promo said that 'Broly is the strongest they ever faced'. The actual movie and and novel only stated 'probably' stronger than Beerus and Jiren within the anime was more or less stated to be above a God of Destruction who was above Beerus. So even the claim 'probably' stronger than Beerus wouldn't make Broly the strongest enemy.

Nope, lore puts Jiren over Broly since Jiren was considered 'stronger than a God of Destruction', while all Broly got was 'probably' stronger than Beerus outside of a promo. And feat-wise, Jiren is more impressive since fought more people who were Blue level and beyond within minutes, while Broly couldn't even knocked Freeza out of gold in an hour or forced Goku into UI when even Kelfa managed to do it. Even his fight with Gogeta isn't al that impressive since Blue Gogeta smashed him and Omen, as I pointed out, have a ungodly multiplier if we look at the anime given how the weakest form outpaces Blue Kaioken x20 plus a Spirit Bomb made to beat Jiren, and wouldn't have done as well as Omen even if Goku just absorbed the Spirit Bomb instead of throwing it.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

HeroR
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:46 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Why are you guys comparing anime statements/lore/feats to movie? They clearly aren't the same continuity considering goku and vegeta didn't have kaioken or blue evolution, unless you want to argue they decided to fight ssj broly at 5% of their true capabilities which probably isn't the hill you want to die on?
The movie is officially a continues the anime. That and Shenron only grants one wish, which matches the events of Episode 68.
Loputousu wrote:
First, we would have to consider Vegettto / Gogeta> MUI, and we have no statement to compare the power of the two.
It's likely that MUI is much stronger than fusion, given that Vegito (in the anime) was stronger than, but not that much stronger than, Merged Zamasu, who Beerus thought he could easily beat. I doubt Merged Zamasu was Hakaishin level at any rate.

Yes, it's true that Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger since then, but I doubt it would be that much of a difference.

Beerus never saw Merged Zamasu. He only said he could beat 'Zamasu' in Episode 61, which would mean Black and Future Zamasu since they didn't fused until 64.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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