Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Bullza
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:05 am

Well the movie made Super Saiyan God look like a big jump compared to Super Saiyan just not remotely to the extent of a Fused Super Saiyan.

So perhaps the Super Saiyan Vegito who fought Buuhan is meant to be stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:09 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
ssj3kakarot wrote:Those who think Broly = Gogeta most likely are fanboys.
Bandai was invaded by fanboys.

Image
How much was UI Goku and Jiren again?

It's really curious that Ikari Broly is only 7000. My thinking of Goku being considerable weakened when he used Blue in the movie is looking likely now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:16 am

Bullza wrote:I haven't read any of the posts in this for about a month and a half so I know everyone has already probably talked circles around the new movie but I haven't seen anything.

Without being influenced by any other opinions and having seen the movie...

They said Broly was "maybe" stronger than Beerus. That reminded me of Shin saying that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito was maybe stronger than Beerus in the manga so that ties up nicely. With the training they did since then it would make sense for Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta to be above Beerus.

He doesn't seem like he should be as strong as Jiren though. Jiren they seemed quite confident was above a God of Destruction, no maybe about it. With his Limit Breaker power that came out as well on top of that he seems like he would be a good bit in front.

Which would also seem likely to me because Jiren was a match for Ultra Instinct Goku. I don't think Broly or Gogeta is meant to be as strong as that. I think they just teased but didn't use it because they're saving it for a later time and something bigger.

Plus for what's it's worth Heroes clearly makes Ultra Instinct out to be far better than Fusion.

The other thing to point out was that Super Saiyan Gogeta was far stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku so this old assumption of Super Saiyan God Goku being stronger than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito would seem unlikely now.

Super Saiyan God Goku could have been more comparable to Gohan Buu perhaps.
Head canon: Here are my thoughts on that. So fusion takes the two fighters power levels and, well, fuses them together. At the time when Goku thought a fusion between him and Vegeta wouldn't be enough, it was because it clearly wouldnt have been able to match beerus. But now that Goku and Vegeta have obtain much higher levels of power, their fusion is that much stronger. I believe Vegito (Dbz) is stronger in his base than the max of Goku and Vegeta. I also believe that Gogeta (Broly movie) is stronger in base than both Goku and Vegeta at max blue. Fusion has to be stronger than what the two warriors could dish out, otherwise it would be lame. So because BoG, their max was only ss3, that wasn't going to cut it for Beerus. But now their max is Blue, so the base of that fusion, has to be stronger than that. I'm not sure if that makes sense on "paper," at least, but that's how I see it working so it doesn't contradict what Goku says. Furthermore, Goku confirms it by saying he'd never imagined a realm of this power.
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:31 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:Head canon: Here are my thoughts on that. So fusion takes the two fighters power levels and, well, fuses them together. At the time when Goku thought a fusion between him and Vegeta wouldn't be enough, it was because it clearly wouldnt have been able to match beerus. But now that Goku and Vegeta have obtain much higher levels of power, their fusion is that much stronger. I believe Vegito (Dbz) is stronger in his base than the max of Goku and Vegeta. I also believe that Gogeta (Broly movie) is stronger in base than both Goku and Vegeta at max blue. Fusion has to be stronger than what the two warriors could dish out, otherwise it would be lame. So because BoG, their max was only ss3, that wasn't going to cut it for Beerus. But now their max is Blue, so the base of that fusion, has to be stronger than that. I'm not sure if that makes sense on "paper," at least, but that's how I see it working so it doesn't contradict what Goku says. Furthermore, Goku confirms it by saying he'd never imagined a realm of this power.
Well I'm not really too sure what you're getting at but if Super Saiyan God Goku back then was supposedly stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito back then...then shouldn't Super Saiyan God Goku now be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito now?

Kale and Caulifla didn't have a max that was near Super Saiyan God but Base Kefla was blitzing Super Saiyan God Goku.

Is Goku even familiar with his strength in Fusion because he's not even Goku anymore.

I dunno between Kefla and Gogeta, I think we either overestimated Super Saiyan God or underestimated Fusion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta_Blue » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:10 am

Goku says SSJG is a realm of power he couldn't fathom. Narratively speaking it was superior to fusion in BoG. The protagonist's most powerful weapon (fusion) isn't enough to handle the new antagonist, so he needs something stronger. Enter Super Saiyan God. That's storytelling 101.

Granted SSJG wasn't enough either, but that can easily come down to Goku underestimating how strong Beerus really is. It doesn't mean he somehow overestimated SSJG or underestimated fusion.

SSJG > fusion has either been inexplicably retconned, or the fusion boost is escalated relative to higher transformations/general power increase.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:27 am

The retcon seems more likely out the two. After all this was said in a movie where Beerus was meant to have used only 70% of his power and that no longer accounts for anything either.

You also might be referring to something else but isn't Goku's comment "It's a level of strength I can't reach on my own" which doesn't prove it's stronger than Fusion because he hasn't reached that level on his own either apparently.

Back then we were told one thing and we made our assumptions from it. Now we have more up to date information which paints a different picture. Maybe we just assumed wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:35 am

Bullza wrote: Well I'm not really too sure what you're getting at but if Super Saiyan God Goku back then was supposedly stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito back then...then shouldn't Super Saiyan God Goku now be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito now?

Kale and Caulifla didn't have a max that was near Super Saiyan God but Base Kefla was blitzing Super Saiyan God Goku.

Is Goku even familiar with his strength in Fusion because he's not even Goku anymore.

I dunno between Kefla and Gogeta, I think we either overestimated Super Saiyan God or underestimated Fusion.
What he's saying is that the fusion's base state accounts for the fusees' transformations.

So a Buu era fusion would be SSJ3 tier in base whereas a current fusion would be SSB tier.

I don't think there's anything official actually saying this but it's a fine idea.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:51 am

I always liked to put the base state of a perfect Fusion, not just any normal Fusion but a PERFECT one where the fusees are completely compatible in the new being they produce, as exactly as strong as the main achievable ceiling that the 2 fusees would have together.

Back in the original series, Goku and Vegeta's combined potential was SS3, so that's the level that Vegito starts out as. Ordinarily, this would be it for Fusions since most races don't have any further natural power-ups. However, because Saiyans can transform, this was merely the base form for Vegito and he ended up able to turn Super Saiyan on top of this.

Now, Goku and Vegeta have not only become a lot stronger overall, but they've also attained new forms that greatly extend their combined ceiling of potential: SSB. This is the maximum amount of power both can ordinarily achieve together, and thus the new Gogeta starts out at that level; he can then transform on top of that because Saiyans are just that much better than everyone else :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:11 am

ssj3kakarot wrote: When someone uses a dragon ball card power level to prove their point,it only devalues their platform. Especially because we see someone like Cooler also in the card line up. Doesn't speak volumes for your case. I don't use a couple of cards to get my information, neither do I use them to try and support or deny my position. Just watch the movie again, Gogeta is practically toying with FP Broly. Granted this is my opinion on what the visual ques that were given us as viewers. You have your opinion, I just believe that there is a mountain of evidence that makes your opinion the wrong one.
I’m not trying to prove a point. Just pointing the irony on your comment. You are entitled to think they have different powerlevel, but official merchandise says otherwise. Yours or my opinion don’t have any impact on the grand schemes of things.
ZombieVito wrote: How much was UI Goku and Jiren again?

It's really curious that Ikari Broly is only 7000. My thinking of Goku being considerable weakened when he used Blue in the movie is looking likely now.
Goku was at 9,600 and Jiren at 9,500. Old LSS Broly was at 7,000 too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:49 am

@Bullza

I'm pretty sure the correct wording was "probably" and not maybe. Huge difference between the words.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:53 am

Also anyone who saw the movie, would realise that Gogeta was above FPSSJ brolys max power up, BEFORE Goget a himself powered up more to pummel him. The novel makes it even more clear that as soon as Gogeta put some more effort in, it was a stomp.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:01 am

[quote="Hugo Boss"
ZombieVito wrote: How much was UI Goku and Jiren again?

It's really curious that Ikari Broly is only 7000. My thinking of Goku being considerable weakened when he used Blue in the movie is looking likely now.
Goku was at 9,600 and Jiren at 9,500. Old LSS Broly was at 7,000 too.[/quote]
Can I get a link to where all these numbers can be found?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:11 pm

Which of Broly's forms can FT Arc SSJB Vegito beat?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by God Gogeta » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:31 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Bullza wrote: Well I'm not really too sure what you're getting at but if Super Saiyan God Goku back then was supposedly stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito back then...then shouldn't Super Saiyan God Goku now be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito now?

Kale and Caulifla didn't have a max that was near Super Saiyan God but Base Kefla was blitzing Super Saiyan God Goku.

Is Goku even familiar with his strength in Fusion because he's not even Goku anymore.

I dunno between Kefla and Gogeta, I think we either overestimated Super Saiyan God or underestimated Fusion.
What he's saying is that the fusion's base state accounts for the fusees' transformations.

So a Buu era fusion would be SSJ3 tier in base whereas a current fusion would be SSB tier.

I don't think there's anything official actually saying this but it's a fine idea.
Majin Buu arc Vegetto Base or Gogeta Base= ( Goku SSJ3 + Vegeta SSJ2) * Tens of Times
Now Tens of Times= *10 or *50 or any times of ten less than *100

Broly Arc Vegetto Base or Gogeta Base=( Goku FP PSSB+ Vegeta FP PSSB) * Tens of Times.
And remember SSG Goku = 100* SSJ3 Goku, during BOG. And SSB Goku = 50* SSG Goku during ROF, They improved their SSB so much to PSSB in TOP arc may be 20 times minimum from then.
So, Base Gogeta or Vegetto during BUU arc and Base Gogeta at Broly movie aren't at the same level.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by God Gogeta » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:38 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:Which of Broly's forms can FT Arc SSJB Vegito beat?
All forms except Broly's Full Powered Legendary Super saiyan form that blocked two kicks from SSB Gogeta.In FT arc Both Goku and Vegeta had less control over their SSB forms than now and they were lot weaker. So ,FT arc SSB Vegetto will defuse early due to his character of wasting time before Broly even goes LSSJ.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:58 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:Which of Broly's forms can FT Arc SSJB Vegito beat?
Well, Vegetto Blue got the same/similar power statement than Broly did.

So it's a toss up who would win but I guess Broly can endure the time limit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:13 pm

Bullza wrote:I haven't read any of the posts in this for about a month and a half so I know everyone has already probably talked circles around the new movie but I haven't seen anything.

Without being influenced by any other opinions and having seen the movie...

They said Broly was "maybe" stronger than Beerus. That reminded me of Shin saying that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito was maybe stronger than Beerus in the manga so that ties up nicely. With the training they did since then it would make sense for Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta to be above Beerus.

He doesn't seem like he should be as strong as Jiren though. Jiren they seemed quite confident was above a God of Destruction, no maybe about it. With his Limit Breaker power that came out as well on top of that he seems like he would be a good bit in front.

Which would also seem likely to me because Jiren was a match for Ultra Instinct Goku. I don't think Broly or Gogeta is meant to be as strong as that. I think they just teased but didn't use it because they're saving it for a later time and something bigger.

Plus for what's it's worth Heroes clearly makes Ultra Instinct out to be far better than Fusion.

The other thing to point out was that Super Saiyan Gogeta was far stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku so this old assumption of Super Saiyan God Goku being stronger than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito would seem unlikely now.

Super Saiyan God Goku could have been more comparable to Gohan Buu perhaps.
No, the correct word is "probably".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:42 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Can I get a link to where all these numbers can be found?
There is a profile on tumblr (msdbzbabe) that gathered a lot of that stuff, but it’s not complete. Anyway, you can search for Wafer Sticker Chou Senshi keywords. If I had the time, I would create a thread myself compiling the different sets.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:21 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:What he's saying is that the fusion's base state accounts for the fusees' transformations. So a Buu era fusion would be SSJ3 tier in base whereas a current fusion would be SSB tier.
But why would it be that way?

Base Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Z so I can get that Base Vegito in the Future Trunks saga would be stronger than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito in Z.

But if the current Base Vegito gives a greater boost than the current Super Saiyan God. Then the old Base Vegito should give a greater boost than the old Super Saiyan God, it shouldn't still be weaker than any Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

Somehow it's gone from

Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan 3 Fusion

Base > Super Saiyan God

That's weird.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:32 pm

Bullza wrote: But why would it be that way?

Base Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Z so I can get that Base Vegito in the Future Trunks saga would be stronger than any hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito in Z.

But if the current Base Vegito gives a greater boost than the current Super Saiyan God. Then the old Base Vegito should give a greater boost than the old Super Saiyan God, it shouldn't still be weaker than any Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

Somehow it's gone from

Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan 3 Fusion

Base > Super Saiyan God

That's weird.
The idea is that Vegetto DID become better as soon as Goku obtained the power of SSG. According to the theory a fusion's base has access to all of a fusee's power, so from that point onward Base Vegetto would have SSG tier power, and then SSB tier once they unlocked that.

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