Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What sells my thoughts on the matter, to me, is the the Genkidama struggle that Jiren had with Goku.

At a heavily suppressed level, Jiren easily stalemated SSB/KKx20 Goku without any difficulty on his part and absolute exertion on Goku's end. Goku didn't even struggle this much with Pure Buu who was equal in strength to him as a SS3 back then AND had huge amounts of stamina AND Goku was exhausted in his base form at the time.

Jiren is on a whole other level, and this easily fits with the idea that only recently as of the Future Trunks Arc has a SSB-using FUSION been able to reach this realm that all Gods of Destruction rest at and surpass it. And then a basic Ultra Instinct in comparison to the Angels' version manages to completely trump the full extent of this massive power. In terms of the scaling, that's just MASSIVE, especially now that we know that the differences between forms isn't as big as once thought even for the lowballers like myself thanks to the latest movie.

[Kenneth La Torre]

What sells my thoughts on the matter, to me, is the the Genkidama struggle that Jiren had with Goku.

At a heavily suppressed level, Jiren easily stalemated SSB/KKx20 Goku without any difficulty on his part and absolute exertion on Goku's end. Goku didn't even struggle this much with Pure Buu who was equal in strength to him as a SS3 back then AND had huge amounts of stamina AND Goku was exhausted in his base form at the time.

Jiren is on a whole other level, and this easily fits with the idea that only recently as of the Future Trunks Arc has a SSB-using FUSION been able to reach this realm that all Gods of Destruction rest at and surpass it. And then a basic Ultra Instinct in comparison to the Angels' version manages to completely trump the full extent of this massive power. In terms of the scaling, that's just MASSIVE, especially now that we know that the differences between forms isn't as big as once thought even for the lowballers like myself thanks to the latest movie.

The difference between forms is just as big as before. Nothing to state the opposite. The only form that doesn't have the same multiplier is god, and thato because some of the God power is already in base. Considering a base fusion already blue levels, a ssj3 gogeta being already 400x a multiplier from blue, 10x a ssbkkx20 and ssbe vegeta, which he would be flicking away God toppo like nothing. Imagine the God forms, with ssblue being at bare minimum 10x god, who is at bare minimum 2x ssj3.

[dragon boss z]

What sells my thoughts on the matter, to me, is the the Genkidama struggle that Jiren had with Goku.

At a heavily suppressed level, Jiren easily stalemated SSB/KKx20 Goku without any difficulty on his part and absolute exertion on Goku's end. Goku didn't even struggle this much with Pure Buu who was equal in strength to him as a SS3 back then AND had huge amounts of stamina AND Goku was exhausted in his base form at the time.

Jiren is on a whole other level, and this easily fits with the idea that only recently as of the Future Trunks Arc has a SSB-using FUSION been able to reach this realm that all Gods of Destruction rest at and surpass it. And then a basic Ultra Instinct in comparison to the Angels' version manages to completely trump the full extent of this massive power. In terms of the scaling, that's just MASSIVE, especially now that we know that the differences between forms isn't as big as once thought even for the lowballers like myself thanks to the latest movie.

The difference between forms is just as big as before. Nothing to state the opposite. The only form that doesn't have the same multiplier is god, and thato because some of the God power is already in base. Considering a base fusion already blue levels, a ssj3 gogeta being already 400x a multiplier from blue, 10x a ssbkkx20 and ssbe vegeta, which he would be flicking away God toppo like nothing. Imagine the God forms, with ssblue being at bare minimum 10x god, who is at bare minimum 2x ssj3.

In the Broly movie base and ssj Goku were able to fight a version of Broly that was overpowering SSG Vegeta, and the difference between full power ssj Broly and regular ssj Broly seemed about the same as ssj Gogeta and SSB Gogeta, so in the Broly movie it did seem like the multipliers were smaller.

[Bullza]

Would people say that Jiren at his weakest level that he used, basically when he fought Goku the first time...would already be stronger than Merged Zamasu?

Actually now I've asked, it was Shin wasn't it who said he was on a different level to anyone else before it right?

So wouldn't Ultra Instinct Omen, the first time, also be above Merged Zamasu? Wouldn't that mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was more powerful than Merged Zamasu?

I went more directions that I planned to take with that post.

[Gogeta_Blue]

Would people say that Jiren at his weakest level that he used, basically when he fought Goku the first time...would already be stronger than Merged Zamasu?

Actually now I've asked, it was Shin wasn't it who said he was on a different level to anyone else before it right?

So wouldn't Ultra Instinct Omen, the first time, also be above Merged Zamasu? Wouldn't that mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was more powerful than Merged Zamasu?

I went more directions that I planned to take with that post.

Depends on which Merged Zamasu we're talking about.

Anime Merged Zamasu at his best gave Vegetto Blue trouble. Logically he'd stomp everyone in the ToP except Jiren and UI Goku.

Manga Merged Zamasu was much less impressive, being absolutely embarrassed by Vegetto Blue and stalemated by CSSJB Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What sells my thoughts on the matter, to me, is the the Genkidama struggle that Jiren had with Goku.

At a heavily suppressed level, Jiren easily stalemated SSB/KKx20 Goku without any difficulty on his part and absolute exertion on Goku's end. Goku didn't even struggle this much with Pure Buu who was equal in strength to him as a SS3 back then AND had huge amounts of stamina AND Goku was exhausted in his base form at the time.

Jiren is on a whole other level, and this easily fits with the idea that only recently as of the Future Trunks Arc has a SSB-using FUSION been able to reach this realm that all Gods of Destruction rest at and surpass it. And then a basic Ultra Instinct in comparison to the Angels' version manages to completely trump the full extent of this massive power. In terms of the scaling, that's just MASSIVE, especially now that we know that the differences between forms isn't as big as once thought even for the lowballers like myself thanks to the latest movie.

The difference between forms is just as big as before. Nothing to state the opposite. The only form that doesn't have the same multiplier is god, and thato because some of the God power is already in base. Considering a base fusion already blue levels, a ssj3 gogeta being already 400x a multiplier from blue, 10x a ssbkkx20 and ssbe vegeta, which he would be flicking away God toppo like nothing. Imagine the God forms, with ssblue being at bare minimum 10x god, who is at bare minimum 2x ssj3.

And Jiren was, while greatly suppressed and using his glare, was at minimum 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20. That's the MINIMUM of 8000 times stronger than SSB.

With Oozaru being a 10 times boost, Oozaru Broly, rivalling SSB, looks to be around 5000-10,000 times greater than base since SSG ended up like 500 times greater than base. This suppressed level would be nearly as great as SSB by SSB, going by Gogeta. But we can clearly see that Jiren's full-power exceeds even this, ESPECIALLY after unleashing his hidden power.

[Noah]

So I watched the Latam dub and Piccolo can now sense SSG Goku.

Considering that Future Trunks couldn't sense him until he got his Ikari form, this should close the debate that Piccolo isn't strong now.

Piccolo should at the very least kill Evil Boo easily now.

Sensing God Ki doesn't mean jack, even Dende can do it, the thing for me is that Piccolo definitely got stronger, but near Z SSJ3-level at most.

[Bullza]

Depends on which Merged Zamasu we're talking about.

The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu from the anime.

You think he could beat the suppressed Jiren?

[SupremeKai25]

Would people say that Jiren at his weakest level that he used, basically when he fought Goku the first time...would already be stronger than Merged Zamasu?

Actually now I've asked, it was Shin wasn't it who said he was on a different level to anyone else before it right?

So wouldn't Ultra Instinct Omen, the first time, also be above Merged Zamasu? Wouldn't that mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was more powerful than Merged Zamasu?

I went more directions that I planned to take with that post.

I guess. The thing with Fused Zamasu is that he was the scariest villain not because of his power (though he had limitless potential, mind you), but because of his immortality. So I don't find it that far-fetched that Jiren, even at his weakest, would be much stronger than Fused Zamasu. Indeed, in Toriyama's original script, Fused Zamasu was weaker than two Super Saiyan Blue combined, his main strength lied in his divine immortality.

Infinite Zamasu, a being born from Fused Zamasu's immortal soul merging with the very fabric of the cosmos, is different though. He was an astral being whose power transcended time and space. Mortals like Kefla and Jiren should be NOTHING compared to a fourth dimensional being. Which is why I don't think that Shin's statement included Infinite Zamasu. If I recall correctly Shin was talking only about the villains that Goku faced. But Goku never faced Infinite Zamasu, he just summoned Zeno and fled.

Kefla, Jiren, and Broly are all very strong, But they were defeated by mortals in combat. Infinite Zamasu was defeated only when Zeno, King of All, erased the entire multiverse. He was on an entirely different level.

To answer your question, Kefla and Jiren are stronger than Fused Zamasu as per Shin's statement, but they don't even come close to Infinite Zamasu.

[ankokudaishogun]

Halo Zamasu would be stomped by First Fight(with Goku) Jiren.
Grotesque Zamasu was, IMHO, about Hakaishin Toppo-level. He might actually be stronger than First Fight Jiren.

Infinite Zamasu wasn't really that strong, even Shin managed a shield capable to block his attacks. The issue with hims was that he was corrupting the fabric of reality and expanding even through time.
First Fight Jiren should be able to defeat him.

...full power Jiren would make short work of Infinite Zamasu, due Full Power Jiren being stronger than Time.

[Koitsukai]

I do think MUI is a hell of a multiplier, actually first omen made Goku close a gigantic gap, stated by the androids (he went from landing 0 blows to evenly fight a character stronger than Merged Zamasu and probably around Vegito Blue, he pretty much became a fusion himself), he then went to experience 2 stronger versions of Omen and then the full power of UI that was a huge jump in power. And considering Shin's statement, Vegito Blue should be, at best, a match for 109-110 Supressed Jiren, but let's say Vegito Blue could actually be somewhat above Jiren. The following iterations of Jiren should easily stomp Vegito. Maybe not stomp, but even dressed Jiren should win in a fight, aside from the potara's time limit. Then without a doubt, LB Jiren should stomp Vegito Blue. MUI took Goku from a regular SSB to destroy the dude that destroys FT Vegito Blue.

UI(omen and Mastered) was introduced as a fucked up power up/technique, pretty much a deus ex machina that happened in the perfect moment and solved everything with little effort. Don't know why is so underrated by some fans. The GoDs were quite amazed by it and stood up as if they had Zeno's dad before them.

[Zamasu55]

Would people say that Jiren at his weakest level that he used, basically when he fought Goku the first time...would already be stronger than Merged Zamasu?

Actually now I've asked, it was Shin wasn't it who said he was on a different level to anyone else before it right?

So wouldn't Ultra Instinct Omen, the first time, also be above Merged Zamasu? Wouldn't that mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was more powerful than Merged Zamasu?

I went more directions that I planned to take with that post.

Yes, plus Jiren in his weakest state (not counting the wounded one from the last episode of Super of course) is already on par with Beerus, perhaps stronger.

[Kenneth La Torre]

What sells my thoughts on the matter, to me, is the the Genkidama struggle that Jiren had with Goku.

At a heavily suppressed level, Jiren easily stalemated SSB/KKx20 Goku without any difficulty on his part and absolute exertion on Goku's end. Goku didn't even struggle this much with Pure Buu who was equal in strength to him as a SS3 back then AND had huge amounts of stamina AND Goku was exhausted in his base form at the time.

Jiren is on a whole other level, and this easily fits with the idea that only recently as of the Future Trunks Arc has a SSB-using FUSION been able to reach this realm that all Gods of Destruction rest at and surpass it. And then a basic Ultra Instinct in comparison to the Angels' version manages to completely trump the full extent of this massive power. In terms of the scaling, that's just MASSIVE, especially now that we know that the differences between forms isn't as big as once thought even for the lowballers like myself thanks to the latest movie.

The difference between forms is just as big as before. Nothing to state the opposite. The only form that doesn't have the same multiplier is god, and thato because some of the God power is already in base. Considering a base fusion already blue levels, a ssj3 gogeta being already 400x a multiplier from blue, 10x a ssbkkx20 and ssbe vegeta, which he would be flicking away God toppo like nothing. Imagine the God forms, with ssblue being at bare minimum 10x god, who is at bare minimum 2x ssj3.

And Jiren was, while greatly suppressed and using his glare, was at minimum 400 times stronger than SSB/KKx20. That's the MINIMUM of 8000 times stronger than SSB.

With Oozaru being a 10 times boost, Oozaru Broly, rivalling SSB, looks to be around 5000-10,000 times greater than base since SSG ended up like 500 times greater than base. This suppressed level would be nearly as great as SSB by SSB, going by Gogeta. But we can clearly see that Jiren's full-power exceeds even this, ESPECIALLY after unleashing his hidden power.

400x stronger than ssbx20 goku? As far as I'm aware, that's not stated or hinted anywhere. He was considerably above that, but to what extend in his suppressed form is unknown. However, look at my comment and ask yourself, where did I bring up jiren or MUI? I was just talking about multipliers for forms. Don't bring up this debate that i have no interest on. Please stick to the subject.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Would people say that Jiren at his weakest level that he used, basically when he fought Goku the first time...would already be stronger than Merged Zamasu?

Actually now I've asked, it was Shin wasn't it who said he was on a different level to anyone else before it right?

So wouldn't Ultra Instinct Omen, the first time, also be above Merged Zamasu? Wouldn't that mean Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was more powerful than Merged Zamasu?

I went more directions that I planned to take with that post.

I'm sure that Jiren surpassed merged zamasu in the first special. Was he even that strong to begin with? Even when powered up to be as big as broly, vegito was stomping the shit out of him. he was a difficult opponent because of his immortality.
Kefla as a ssj2 should as well.

[ZombieVito]

Depends on which Merged Zamasu we're talking about.

The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu from the anime.

You think he could beat the suppressed Jiren?

That Zamasu wasn't that far off Vegetto Blue who was on par with Beerus so he beats every Jiren expect the full power one and when he breaks his limits.

[wolflonnie]

In my opinion Gogeta, Vegetto, Jiren, Beerus and UI Goku are all relative to each other, with Zamasu a bit weaker than all of them.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Depends on which Merged Zamasu we're talking about.

The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu from the anime.

You think he could beat the suppressed Jiren?

That Zamasu wasn't that far off Vegetto Blue who was on par with Beerus so he beats every Jiren expect the full power one and when he breaks his limits.

Probably.

We also have to remember that, at first, it was only Merged Zamasu's corrupted half that was doing the work in fighting off SSB Vegito. It was later in the fight where Merged Zamasu buffed up where he was overall about equal to SSB Vegito but sacrificed for that power in his speed.

[SupremeKai25]

Infinite Zamasu wasn't really that strong, even Shin managed a shield capable to block his attacks. The issue with hims was that he was corrupting the fabric of reality and expanding even through time.
First Fight Jiren should be able to defeat him.

...full power Jiren would make short work of Infinite Zamasu, due Full Power Jiren being stronger than Time.

To be honest the real reason why Shin parried Zamasu's attack was Plot. In reality, Shin is a gnat compared to Infinite Zamasu. He is a gnat compared to Present Zamasu! If you look at Infinite Zamasu, he was left unscathed by the combined attacks of Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks, and proceeded to knock them unconcious with a single blast. Zamasu at that point could have easily shattered Shin's barrier but simply chose not to because reasons. Maybe he wanted to toy with them. Maybe he just didn't care. But he certainly didn't lack the strength to defeat Shin.

Sure Jiren is strong, but how could he possibly defeat Infinite Zamasu? I am here picturing Jiren firing ki blasts at the sky, hoping that he will somehow annihilate all those faces covering the surface of the planet. How do you destroy that which has no body?

I'm sure that Jiren surpassed merged zamasu in the first special. Was he even that strong to begin with? Even when powered up to be as big as broly, vegito was stomping the shit out of him. he was a difficult opponent because of his immortality.
Kefla as a ssj2 should as well.

Well in the manga Fused Zamasu was stomped by Vegito, but in the anime he put up a very good fight and at one point he was even able to overpower him and almost stabbed him with his ki blade. Zamasu was a worthy opponent for Vegito, until he lost it and turned into a huge and slow monster.

But when you look at the fight before Zamasu increased his size, he was able to trade blows with Vegito. Also his eye beam technique surprised Vegito who was pushed back by the attack.

[ZombieVito]

Probably.

We also have to remember that, at first, it was only Merged Zamasu's corrupted half that was doing the work in fighting off SSB Vegito. It was later in the fight where Merged Zamasu buffed up where he was overall about equal to SSB Vegito but sacrificed for that power in his speed.

I was talking in general. I took the buffed Zamasu into account.

Sure Jiren is strong, but how could he possibly defeat Infinite Zamasu?

He can't. No one can't except Zeno.

[ruler9871]

Probably.

We also have to remember that, at first, it was only Merged Zamasu's corrupted half that was doing the work in fighting off SSB Vegito. It was later in the fight where Merged Zamasu buffed up where he was overall about equal to SSB Vegito but sacrificed for that power in his speed.

I was talking in general. I took the buffed Zamasu into account.

Sure Jiren is strong, but how could he possibly defeat Infinite Zamasu?

He can't. No one can't except Zeno.

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.