Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:09 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Aside from what was already said about the DBS anime not having filler, this is kind of a mess. Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks isnt something that should be dismissed at all. It would be a huge inconsistency if that WASN'T the case.

-Gotenks was told he would be useless against Freeza, and then Base Goku fought him evenly. Final Form Freeza~Base Goku>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks was a fact long before it was depicted in the Potafu arc.
-Base Goku is able to entertain Beerus when fighting him.
-SSJ Goku at the end of BoG was stated to be stronger than SSG was moments prior. How the hell could his Base form be weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks if his SSJ is stronger than SSG was?



This is just wrong. We had every indication that there base forms were AT LEAST that strong, nothing was exaggerated. Having Base Goku SSJ3 Gotenks level is a huge downplay. I mean, you're just mistaken.
You are correct only about Gotenks situation. It's totally fine to have base Goku stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since in Toriyama's BOG movie, base Goku was fighting Beerus. But the rest of the examples are simply failures by TOEI and Toyotaro and simply filler and don't add up with Toriyama's canonical story.

Not sure what exactly you are trying to say, but clearly you don't understand what the word "filler" means.
Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:25 pm

Bullza wrote:I watched the Basil/Buu and Lavender/Gohan fights again.

I'd probably say that Basil and Lavender were Super Saiyan level. Well closer to it than Base level. Perhaps closest to the likes of a suppressed Perfect Cell or something.

Buu is at least Super Saiyan 2 level and he wailed on Basil and he was still able to stand whereas Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan easily killed a Cell Jr with one blow. Lavender is tricker because he fought on par with both Base and Super Saiyan Gohan but he was laughing about against the former, so was probably just toying with him and was caught by surprise when he was blinded and still able to block him.
Yeah I think this too now. How strong would you put Bergamo?

Considering base Gohan seemed to be not that far off base Goku in E90 then that means he surpassed his Ultimate form in base. This also tells us Piccolo increased his power after E88 since he rivaled base Gohan at the ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:03 pm

Miracles wrote: Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
This is not the definition of filler. Filler are embellishments to the original story. Differently from DBZ, DBS doesn’t have an original story. Actually, the anime and manga from DBS are different versions of the same story. So, DBS doesn’t contain fillers. In any case, the idea coming from Toriyama doesn’t warrant the status of canon. The canon exists, but it isn’t officially outlined.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:07 pm

Miracles wrote: We never have nonsense in Toriyama's canon like Goku struggling with Krillin in his strongest form. The reason why it's nonsense is because the very fact that Blue's Ki control has nothing to do with the amount of power one can control but with how one increases their power through containing the ki within the individual in order to raise battle power. In Toriyama's canon [authority] when a character uses their best transformation, it's full power.
This is pure BS.

1. Ki control literally is simply the amount of power one can control, what you said is pure, nonsensical headcanon.

2. Characters can and do suppress themselves in their strongest transformations all the time in "Toriyama's canon". You are forgetting examples like MSSJ Goku being suppressed for most of the Cell Games arc until halfway into his fight with Cell, Perfect Cell himself being suppressed until he fights SSJ2 Gohan, Final Form Freeza being suppressed until Goku goes SSJ on Namek, etc. There is no rule that says a character is always at full power in their strongest transformations.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:10 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote: You are correct only about Gotenks situation. It's totally fine to have base Goku stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since in Toriyama's BOG movie, base Goku was fighting Beerus. But the rest of the examples are simply failures by TOEI and Toyotaro and simply filler and don't add up with Toriyama's canonical story.

Not sure what exactly you are trying to say, but clearly you don't understand what the word "filler" means.
Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
No, filler means ideas that were not present in the original source MATERIAL that were done to pad out the length of an adaptation either due to production scheduling to accommodate an ongoing manga or production scheduling to accommodate for pre-production of the next major story arc/season.

And since we have no original source material physically present (Toriyama's notes don't count because they're merely outlines and not a full-fledged version of the stories he creates), there is therefore no actual legitimate filler for DBS, meaning that the argument is null and void until Toriyama presents a full-fledged manga or guidebook or something else that definitively states it as the original source material from which all other adaptations derive from.

Also, even if we were to use your incorrect definition, we STILL would not be able to classify anything as filler because we don't know what the original outlines said exactly anyways, and thus can't make proper comparisons; the anime production staff and Toyotaro are free to throw out whatever they deem unnecessary for their adaptations, after all, and can have that approved.

Since THAT'S out of the way, how about we use an actual legitimate power-scaling argument? Namely, how the differences between forms in the Broly movie are implied to be relatively small albeit still significant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:29 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Miracles wrote: We never have nonsense in Toriyama's canon like Goku struggling with Krillin in his strongest form. The reason why it's nonsense is because the very fact that Blue's Ki control has nothing to do with the amount of power one can control but with how one increases their power through containing the ki within the individual in order to raise battle power. In Toriyama's canon [authority] when a character uses their best transformation, it's full power.
This is pure BS.

1. Ki control literally is simply the amount of power one can control, what you said is pure, nonsensical headcanon.
From Toriyama's BOG...
From TOEI...
The series proves me right again...
2. Characters can and do suppress themselves in their strongest transformations all the time in "Toriyama's canon". You are forgetting examples like MSSJ Goku being suppressed for most of the Cell Games arc until halfway into his fight with Cell, Perfect Cell himself being suppressed until he fights SSJ2 Gohan, Final Form Freeza being suppressed until Goku goes SSJ on Namek, etc. There is no rule that says a character is always at full power in their strongest transformations.
None of those transformations/final forms EVER struggled with weaklings. They only fought with people in their league, holding back or not. That's the point.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
This is not the definition of filler. Filler are embellishments to the original story. Differently from DBZ, DBS doesn’t have an original story. Actually, the anime and manga from DBS are different versions of the same story. So, DBS doesn’t contain fillers. In any case, the idea coming from Toriyama doesn’t warrant the status of canon. The canon exists, but it isn’t officially outlined.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:

Not sure what exactly you are trying to say, but clearly you don't understand what the word "filler" means.
Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
No, filler means ideas that were not present in the original source MATERIAL that were done to pad out the length of an adaptation either due to production scheduling to accommodate an ongoing manga or production scheduling to accommodate for pre-production of the next major story arc/season.

And since we have no original source material physically present (Toriyama's notes don't count because they're merely outlines and not a full-fledged version of the stories he creates), there is therefore no actual legitimate filler for DBS, meaning that the argument is null and void until Toriyama presents a full-fledged manga or guidebook or something else that definitively states it as the original source material from which all other adaptations derive from.

Also, even if we were to use your incorrect definition, we STILL would not be able to classify anything as filler because we don't know what the original outlines said exactly anyways, and thus can't make proper comparisons; the anime production staff and Toyotaro are free to throw out whatever they deem unnecessary for their adaptations, after all, and can have that approved.

Since THAT'S out of the way, how about we use an actual legitimate power-scaling argument? Namely, how the differences between forms in the Broly movie are implied to be relatively small albeit still significant.
Incorrect...That filler talk is for another thread...The point is, TOEI and Toytaro's scenes contradict the original source [Toriyama's manga/movies] when it comes to power scaling, that's the point here. Super is suppose to be a continuation/connection of Toriyama's DB manga and Super movies. Yet it is contrary to those original sources with scaling. This is why I say "filler," non canon scenes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:00 pm

Miracles wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
Miracles wrote: We never have nonsense in Toriyama's canon like Goku struggling with Krillin in his strongest form. The reason why it's nonsense is because the very fact that Blue's Ki control has nothing to do with the amount of power one can control but with how one increases their power through containing the ki within the individual in order to raise battle power. In Toriyama's canon [authority] when a character uses their best transformation, it's full power.
This is pure BS.

1. Ki control literally is simply the amount of power one can control, what you said is pure, nonsensical headcanon.
From Toriyama's BOG...
From TOEI...
The series proves me right again...
2. Characters can and do suppress themselves in their strongest transformations all the time in "Toriyama's canon". You are forgetting examples like MSSJ Goku being suppressed for most of the Cell Games arc until halfway into his fight with Cell, Perfect Cell himself being suppressed until he fights SSJ2 Gohan, Final Form Freeza being suppressed until Goku goes SSJ on Namek, etc. There is no rule that says a character is always at full power in their strongest transformations.
None of those transformations/final forms EVER struggled with weaklings. They only fought with people in their league, holding back or not. That's the point.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
This is not the definition of filler. Filler are embellishments to the original story. Differently from DBZ, DBS doesn’t have an original story. Actually, the anime and manga from DBS are different versions of the same story. So, DBS doesn’t contain fillers. In any case, the idea coming from Toriyama doesn’t warrant the status of canon. The canon exists, but it isn’t officially outlined.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: Filler are ideas that are not from the authority source, in this case Toriyama. TOEI and Toyotaro input their own ideas. Therefore non canon filler.
No, filler means ideas that were not present in the original source MATERIAL that were done to pad out the length of an adaptation either due to production scheduling to accommodate an ongoing manga or production scheduling to accommodate for pre-production of the next major story arc/season.

And since we have no original source material physically present (Toriyama's notes don't count because they're merely outlines and not a full-fledged version of the stories he creates), there is therefore no actual legitimate filler for DBS, meaning that the argument is null and void until Toriyama presents a full-fledged manga or guidebook or something else that definitively states it as the original source material from which all other adaptations derive from.

Also, even if we were to use your incorrect definition, we STILL would not be able to classify anything as filler because we don't know what the original outlines said exactly anyways, and thus can't make proper comparisons; the anime production staff and Toyotaro are free to throw out whatever they deem unnecessary for their adaptations, after all, and can have that approved.

Since THAT'S out of the way, how about we use an actual legitimate power-scaling argument? Namely, how the differences between forms in the Broly movie are implied to be relatively small albeit still significant.
Incorrect...That filler talk is for another thread...The point is, TOEI and Toytaro's scenes contradict the original source [Toriyama's manga/movies] when it comes to power scaling, that's the point here. Super is suppose to be a continuation/connection of Toriyama's DB manga and Super movies. Yet it is contrary to those original sources with scaling. This is why I say "filler," non canon scenes.
No, the series proves that using Ki control to prevent it form leaking out prevents it from being sensed and is the key to attaining God Ki in what you stated. The ACTUAL Ki control we're talking about is the ability to control however much strength you have at a given moment. Suppression and all that, a.k.a. stuff from the MANGA that was established.

Also, NOT incorrect. You're bastardizing the actual definition and usage of filler as is traditionally viewed in Japan and the rest of the world in order to nitpick an argument for which you have no counter other than "oh, I think Toriyama's statements mean this", implying that you somehow know better, of which it's abundantly clear you don't since you have yet to bring up legitimate breakage from Toriyama's outlines and concepts from the anime and manga, of which you can't prove anyways since nobody knows what Toriyama's original source material is.

Speaking of which, the original movies don't count anymore because Toriyama explicitly wanted and approved the adaptations of the movies himself, meaning that he felt that the movies could be retold and thus superseded by the anime/manga. So that also defeats your argument that the anime/manga go against his "Toriyama's power-scaling", whatever the f**k that's supposed to be, because they ARE the new power-scaling according to his vision.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:12 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
This is pure BS.

1. Ki control literally is simply the amount of power one can control, what you said is pure, nonsensical headcanon.
From Toriyama's BOG...
From TOEI...
The series proves me right again...
2. Characters can and do suppress themselves in their strongest transformations all the time in "Toriyama's canon". You are forgetting examples like MSSJ Goku being suppressed for most of the Cell Games arc until halfway into his fight with Cell, Perfect Cell himself being suppressed until he fights SSJ2 Gohan, Final Form Freeza being suppressed until Goku goes SSJ on Namek, etc. There is no rule that says a character is always at full power in their strongest transformations.
None of those transformations/final forms EVER struggled with weaklings. They only fought with people in their league, holding back or not. That's the point.
Hugo Boss wrote: This is not the definition of filler. Filler are embellishments to the original story. Differently from DBZ, DBS doesn’t have an original story. Actually, the anime and manga from DBS are different versions of the same story. So, DBS doesn’t contain fillers. In any case, the idea coming from Toriyama doesn’t warrant the status of canon. The canon exists, but it isn’t officially outlined.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: No, filler means ideas that were not present in the original source MATERIAL that were done to pad out the length of an adaptation either due to production scheduling to accommodate an ongoing manga or production scheduling to accommodate for pre-production of the next major story arc/season.

And since we have no original source material physically present (Toriyama's notes don't count because they're merely outlines and not a full-fledged version of the stories he creates), there is therefore no actual legitimate filler for DBS, meaning that the argument is null and void until Toriyama presents a full-fledged manga or guidebook or something else that definitively states it as the original source material from which all other adaptations derive from.

Also, even if we were to use your incorrect definition, we STILL would not be able to classify anything as filler because we don't know what the original outlines said exactly anyways, and thus can't make proper comparisons; the anime production staff and Toyotaro are free to throw out whatever they deem unnecessary for their adaptations, after all, and can have that approved.

Since THAT'S out of the way, how about we use an actual legitimate power-scaling argument? Namely, how the differences between forms in the Broly movie are implied to be relatively small albeit still significant.
Incorrect...That filler talk is for another thread...The point is, TOEI and Toytaro's scenes contradict the original source [Toriyama's manga/movies] when it comes to power scaling, that's the point here. Super is suppose to be a continuation/connection of Toriyama's DB manga and Super movies. Yet it is contrary to those original sources with scaling. This is why I say "filler," non canon scenes.
No, the series proves that using Ki control to prevent it form leaking out prevents it from being sensed and is the key to attaining God Ki in what you stated. The ACTUAL Ki control we're talking about is the ability to control however much strength you have at a given moment. Suppression and all that, a.k.a. stuff from the MANGA that was established.

Also, NOT incorrect. You're bastardizing the actual definition and usage of filler as is traditionally viewed in Japan and the rest of the world in order to nitpick an argument for which you have no counter other than "oh, I think Toriyama's statements mean this", implying that you somehow know better, of which it's abundantly clear you don't since you have yet to bring up legitimate breakage from Toriyama's outlines and concepts from the anime and manga, of which you can't prove anyways since nobody knows what Toriyama's original source material is.

Speaking of which, the original movies don't count anymore because Toriyama explicitly wanted and approved the adaptations of the movies himself, meaning that he felt that the movies could be retold and thus superseded by the anime/manga. So that also defeats your argument that the anime/manga go against his "Toriyama's power-scaling", whatever the f**k that's supposed to be, because they ARE the new power-scaling according to his vision.
You are using headcanon from A to Z. The author's own stories always counts. Super never overrides the movies unless stated, that is a fan delusion. You can't override something from the authority [canon source.] Also, Super adapts from Toriyama's scripts and movies. We know which outline stories Toriyama put together and the plot points cause both the anime and manga keep those [stated by Toyotaro]. You are wrong again on the ki issue, Super doesn't ever mention ki control in how much power one uses. I just showed you it only stated control about not letting god ki seep out for power boost. Which proves my point that Krillin has no business handling a Blue Kamehameha from Goku holding back or not. Which never happened in Toriyama's canon and contradicts it power scaling wise.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:35 pm

Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: From Toriyama's BOG...
From TOEI...
The series proves me right again...


None of those transformations/final forms EVER struggled with weaklings. They only fought with people in their league, holding back or not. That's the point.


Incorrect...That filler talk is for another thread...The point is, TOEI and Toytaro's scenes contradict the original source [Toriyama's manga/movies] when it comes to power scaling, that's the point here. Super is suppose to be a continuation/connection of Toriyama's DB manga and Super movies. Yet it is contrary to those original sources with scaling. This is why I say "filler," non canon scenes.
No, the series proves that using Ki control to prevent it form leaking out prevents it from being sensed and is the key to attaining God Ki in what you stated. The ACTUAL Ki control we're talking about is the ability to control however much strength you have at a given moment. Suppression and all that, a.k.a. stuff from the MANGA that was established.

Also, NOT incorrect. You're bastardizing the actual definition and usage of filler as is traditionally viewed in Japan and the rest of the world in order to nitpick an argument for which you have no counter other than "oh, I think Toriyama's statements mean this", implying that you somehow know better, of which it's abundantly clear you don't since you have yet to bring up legitimate breakage from Toriyama's outlines and concepts from the anime and manga, of which you can't prove anyways since nobody knows what Toriyama's original source material is.

Speaking of which, the original movies don't count anymore because Toriyama explicitly wanted and approved the adaptations of the movies himself, meaning that he felt that the movies could be retold and thus superseded by the anime/manga. So that also defeats your argument that the anime/manga go against his "Toriyama's power-scaling", whatever the f**k that's supposed to be, because they ARE the new power-scaling according to his vision.
You are using headcanon from A to Z. The author's own stories always counts. Super never overrides the movies unless stated, that is a fan delusion. You can't override something from the authority [canon source.] Also, Super adpats from Toriyama's scripts and movies. We know which outline stories Toriyama put together and the plot points cause both the anime and manga keep those [stated by Toyotaro]. You are wrong again on the ki issue, Super doesn't ever mention ki control in how much power one uses. I just showed you it only stated control about not letting god ki seep out for power boost. Which proves my point that Krillin has no business handling a Blue Kamehameha from Goku holding back or not. Which never happened in Toriyama's canon and contradicts it power scaling wise.
Oh yeah, and how come DBS doesn't override the movies? Hmm? They're the latest version of the stories told, approved and requested by Toriyama, and serve as the basis on which later story arcs are built; speaking of, said story arcs categorically cannot happen with the movies' version of events because they explicitly make use of storylines and elements laid out by the anime/manga versions of events, meaning that the overall DBS story is canon within itself and not the movies.

As well, Whis explicitly talks about controlling Ki via not letting it leak out, since that was the whole aim of their training, that they were leaking Ki as they were fighting. If we took your manner of thinking, there's absolutely no way base Goku could ever be hurt by anything like bullets or lasers or be beat up by the likes of Chi-Chi or Bulma. Similarly, if he couldn't remain suppressed in Super Saiyan, there's no way he could ever be hurt by the rock that Krillin threw at him. Similarly, if he couldn't remain suppressed in SSB, he should've always killed anyone weaker than that level. Because that's what Ki control is, right? ONLY being able to hold it in to prevent it from being sensed and never to suppress it when you don't need to use your full power, right? Fighters can never be suppressed because Ki control wasn't stated to be that explicitly, right? That's what you're saying, right?

That's a fallacious argument because it implies that the concept of suppression doesn't exist, that fighters somehow can't regulate their own power for the purposes of training, daily living, etc., which we see in the original manga and latest DBS stories is categorically false. If you were arguing on the premise of bad writing and whatnot, sure, you might have a point even though I think it's perfectly fine writing. But you're arguing "canon" and "filler", things which you've demonstrated you don't know well enough to have a sound argument on. Like, you're saying that there's some unknown version of events that somehow is to be held above the actual products of discussion. What's the point? If you're not willing to entertain the idea of the primary products being canonical to themselves, what the f**k is the point of bothering with these arguments? You clearly think you know Toriyama better than Toei or Toyotaro, so f**king discuss that by yourself and others who want to, and don't bring that sh*t here.

===

[EDIT]:
I apologize if I'm coming across as confrontational and whatnot, it's just that I'm having trouble understanding why exactly you're coming from such a strange argumentative position, and why you're trying to argue "canon" and "filler" for things where that's demonstratively not that simple.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:01 pm

Edit: This post was scrambled.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:55 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: No, the series proves that using Ki control to prevent it form leaking out prevents it from being sensed and is the key to attaining God Ki in what you stated. The ACTUAL Ki control we're talking about is the ability to control however much strength you have at a given moment. Suppression and all that, a.k.a. stuff from the MANGA that was established.

Also, NOT incorrect. You're bastardizing the actual definition and usage of filler as is traditionally viewed in Japan and the rest of the world in order to nitpick an argument for which you have no counter other than "oh, I think Toriyama's statements mean this", implying that you somehow know better, of which it's abundantly clear you don't since you have yet to bring up legitimate breakage from Toriyama's outlines and concepts from the anime and manga, of which you can't prove anyways since nobody knows what Toriyama's original source material is.

Speaking of which, the original movies don't count anymore because Toriyama explicitly wanted and approved the adaptations of the movies himself, meaning that he felt that the movies could be retold and thus superseded by the anime/manga. So that also defeats your argument that the anime/manga go against his "Toriyama's power-scaling", whatever the f**k that's supposed to be, because they ARE the new power-scaling according to his vision.
You are using headcanon from A to Z. The author's own stories always counts. Super never overrides the movies unless stated, that is a fan delusion. You can't override something from the authority [canon source.] Also, Super adpats from Toriyama's scripts and movies. We know which outline stories Toriyama put together and the plot points cause both the anime and manga keep those [stated by Toyotaro]. You are wrong again on the ki issue, Super doesn't ever mention ki control in how much power one uses. I just showed you it only stated control about not letting god ki seep out for power boost. Which proves my point that Krillin has no business handling a Blue Kamehameha from Goku holding back or not. Which never happened in Toriyama's canon and contradicts it power scaling wise.
Oh yeah, and how come DBS doesn't override the movies? Hmm? They're the latest version of the stories told, approved and requested by Toriyama, and serve as the basis on which later story arcs are built; speaking of, said story arcs categorically cannot happen with the movies' version of events because they explicitly make use of storylines and elements laid out by the anime/manga versions of events, meaning that the overall DBS story is canon within itself and not the movies.

As well, Whis explicitly talks about controlling Ki via not letting it leak out, since that was the whole aim of their training, that they were leaking Ki as they were fighting. If we took your manner of thinking, there's absolutely no way base Goku could ever be hurt by anything like bullets or lasers or be beat up by the likes of Chi-Chi or Bulma. Similarly, if he couldn't remain suppressed in Super Saiyan, there's no way he could ever be hurt by the rock that Krillin threw at him. Similarly, if he couldn't remain suppressed in SSB, he should've always killed anyone weaker than that level. Because that's what Ki control is, right? ONLY being able to hold it in to prevent it from being sensed and never to suppress it when you don't need to use your full power, right? Fighters can never be suppressed because Ki control wasn't stated to be that explicitly, right? That's what you're saying, right?

That's a fallacious argument because it implies that the concept of suppression doesn't exist, that fighters somehow can't regulate their own power for the purposes of training, daily living, etc., which we see in the original manga and latest DBS stories is categorically false. If you were arguing on the premise of bad writing and whatnot, sure, you might have a point even though I think it's perfectly fine writing. But you're arguing "canon" and "filler", things which you've demonstrated you don't know well enough to have a sound argument on. Like, you're saying that there's some unknown version of events that somehow is to be held above the actual products of discussion. What's the point? If you're not willing to entertain the idea of the primary products being canonical to themselves, what the f**k is the point of bothering with these arguments? You clearly think you know Toriyama better than Toei or Toyotaro, so f**king discuss that by yourself and others who want to, and don't bring that sh*t here.

===

[EDIT]:
I apologize if I'm coming across as confrontational and whatnot, it's just that I'm having trouble understanding why exactly you're coming from such a strange argumentative position, and why you're trying to argue "canon" and "filler" for things where that's demonstratively not that simple.
The point wasn't about filler/canon, it was about scenes contradicting authoritative DB...Therefore I deemed it filler or non canon to Toriyama's world. The example with Krillin handling Blue Goku's Kameha conflicts the Dragonball manga, period. Can you show me where Goku went SSJ2 or three and beam struggled with a Yamcha cause he can "lower his level to their point?" NO, cause this fan delusion about "Ki control" is nothing more than headcanon. Weak excuses to try and cover up inconsistencies for a medium they love. Goku getting hit by a laser, was due to him being careless [stated in ROF] and the bullet, I don't remember it being in Toriyama's Super movies only TOEI's nonsense. However, none of that was ever explained as ki control. How desperate to try and attribute an example of Ki control with Bulma or Chi Chi hitting Goku, those are gag scenes. Nothing stated or mentioned about Ki control allowing Goku to suppress his ki all the way down to a scrub's level like a Krillin's or Chi Chi as a Super Saiyan with rocks or slaps. That is nothing more than fanfic.

Toriyama's movies are still the main authority cause He wrote them. For example, look at the fandom who thought certain themes went away; SSJ god for example. Despite Toriyama's BOG movie showing Goku transforms BACK into the red form again at the end. People were up in arms when TOEI brought Red back in the TOP cause they thought he couldn't do it anymore. Yet Super continued from Toriyama's BOG's authoritative movie. However, it was no surprise to people like me who understood preeminence. Toriyama's movies are never done away with cause his vision of Super continued from BOG, ROF, outlines [EX: he had two regular Blues strong enough to battle merged Zamas in Future Trunks arc] and DBS Broly with plain old Blue. None of TOEI's SSBE Vegeta or KK Blue or Toyotaro's MSSB in the authority's Broly story. So this is more proof that TOEI's view of Super didn't override the king's view. Toriyama continued his same theme from BOG, ROF to Broly. To say that the movies are done away with just cause Toriyama approved the episodes is headcanon...The Super series is Continuity [connection] and that does not mean it usurp authority [CANON] movies/outlines which they are adapted from.

BTW. your tone is fine. Don't worry about it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 pm

I feel like trying to argue power-scaling for the main products using the arguments of "not canonical" doesn't work because we've never actually seen what's "Toriyama canonical". He himself has never said anything on the matter that we can say definitively proves anything, and we've never seen the actual proof of it.

Not that it matters anyways, since stuff in the anime/manga are canonical to themselves, so trying to use "well Toriyama" is irrelevant because we're NOT talking Toriyama, we're talking Toei and Toyotaro. The main story arcs he came up with after RoF that were adapted utilize the adaptations' storylines because the adapters did so as a means of maintaining continuity, so why bother bringing in the movies if they're not part of the continuity the story arcs hail from?

Keep anime to anime, manga to manga, and BoG/RoF movies to themselves.

I mean, trying to say that "this doesn't count because it wasn't in Toriyama's outline" implies that we just throw out the manga and anime entirely because they clearly don't matter, so why bother talking about them if they don't matter? Exactly. We don't do that because it's not conducive to productive discussion about them. It's not like before with the original manga and anime. We had a very obvious and clear original source material to base things off of back then; we don't have that now, so why presume that there's even a case to be made for that? Stick to the stuff that's in continuity with itself, and treat everything as though it happened; to do otherwise is to assume that we know what exactly Toriyama views as "proper canon", which we can almost certainly say he has no grasp on given how the man admits to not bothering to remember old details.

===

[EDIT]:
Sorry for the off-topic tangent, I'll bring it back around. So, Krillin vs SSB Goku? Not a power-scaling issue because the scene was meant to convey Goku testing Krillin to see what he'd do in the face of overwhelming odds where even his skill won't be enough. Krillin gives it his all despite the odds, then 18 jumps in and shows that Goku doesn't need to worry about merely being strong enough but also working together as a team. Besides, Krillin already showcased that his power fell short of base Gohan before Gohan powered up later on; SSB Goku vs. Krillin was mostly a thematic display.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:35 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Yeah I think this too now. How strong would you put Bergamo?
Well he seemed like he was very close to Base Goku. Not quite at his level but close enough that he should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well.

Which would put him far above the likes of Basil and Lavender. Not sure if that's the intention though. In the manga he was weaker than Piccolo and Frost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:39 pm

Miracles wrote: authority [CANON] movies/outlines which they are adapted from.
Why you keep repeating Toriyama has some kind of authority over Dragon Ball? He just works in the franchise, just like Toyotaro or anyone else in Toei. They only have a lot of respect for him. Rightfully, the authority comes from Shueisha.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:15 am

How on earth do you guys explain Android 18 >> Base Goku and Base Goku >>>>> SS3 Gotenks without the two base and retcon theories?

The manga DID confirm the two base theory as canon in a sense, since in the anime Goku was alleged to have SBG instead of SSG. It got retconned to SSG because of the manga. That's exactly what the retcon theory is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:34 am

Loputousu wrote:How on earth do you guys explain Android 18 >> Base Goku and Base Goku >>>>> SS3 Gotenks without the two base and retcon theories?
18>Base Goku isn't the case so we don't have to worry about it.
Since in the anime Goku was alleged to have SBG instead of SSG.
No, there's no evidence of Goku having SBG in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:41 am

Bullza wrote: Well he seemed like he was very close to Base Goku. Not quite at his level but close enough that he should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well.

Which would put him far above the likes of Basil and Lavender. Not sure if that's the intention though. In the manga he was weaker than Piccolo and Frost.
He was clowned by base Goku at the ToP though. I wouldn't put them close.
Loputousu wrote:How on earth do you guys explain Android 18 >> Base Goku and Base Goku >>>>> SS3 Gotenks without the two base and retcon theories?

The manga DID confirm the two base theory as canon in a sense, since in the anime Goku was alleged to have SBG instead of SSG. It got retconned to SSG because of the manga. That's exactly what the retcon theory is.
She isn't stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku > Base Gohan [ToP] ~ Piccolo > 18.

We don't know how 18 is compared to SS3 Gotenks though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:34 am

ZombieVito wrote:He was clowned by base Goku at the ToP though. I wouldn't put them close.
I wouldn't go that far, Bergamo wasn't doing too badly. That fight is harder to go off as well. The one on one fight they had, they were initially even. When Bergamo took his punches and powered up, Goku had a upper hand so he should be above him but not by leaps and bounds.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote: authority [CANON] movies/outlines which they are adapted from.
Why you keep repeating Toriyama has some kind of authority over Dragon Ball? He just works in the franchise, just like Toyotaro or anyone else in Toei. They only have a lot of respect for him. Rightfully, the authority comes from Shueisha.
Only up to a point. Shueisha owns the rights to Dragonball. Yes, they can allow spin-offs and video games for merchandising purposes. However, when it comes to the world and story of Dragonball, Toriyama is the sole authority. If you wanted to know how would Bulma feel about a certain issue, you would have to get the answer from Toriyama since it is his creation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:42 pm

Bullza wrote: I wouldn't go that far, Bergamo wasn't doing too badly. That fight is harder to go off as well. The one on one fight they had, they were initially even. When Bergamo took his punches and powered up, Goku had a upper hand so he should be above him but not by leaps and bounds.
When they fight again in the ToP he was overpowered pretty easily. They used the opening bit for it.

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