Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:46 pm

All of this is irrelevant anyways because DBS is a continuous story, with the writers making sure to maintain some semblance of fluid continuity for both mediums.

So, using Copy-Vegeta to scale tings is perfectly fine because that arc has been referenced in the continuous story later on, as have other items like Krillin in the forest of illusions, Gohan training with Piccolo, etc.

Speaking of which, I'm wondering where people place Goku, Vegeta, and Broly in their respective forms compared to other characters. For example, before powering up against SS Vegeta, how strong do you guys have base Broly? I have a hard time believing that people would put him as lower than the likes of Piccolo, 18, or Majin Buu if people's preconceptions of base Goku and Vegeta are anything to go by.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:29 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:All of this is irrelevant anyways because DBS is a continuous story, with the writers making sure to maintain some semblance of fluid continuity for both mediums.

So, using Copy-Vegeta to scale tings is perfectly fine because that arc has been referenced in the continuous story later on, as have other items like Krillin in the forest of illusions, Gohan training with Piccolo, etc.

Speaking of which, I'm wondering where people place Goku, Vegeta, and Broly in their respective forms compared to other characters. For example, before powering up against SS Vegeta, how strong do you guys have base Broly? I have a hard time believing that people would put him as lower than the likes of Piccolo, 18, or Majin Buu if people's preconceptions of base Goku and Vegeta are anything to go by.
I think he was close to ssj vegeta in raw power the moment he stepped off the ship but had no idea how to use that power since he hadn't fought anyone before hence base vegeta kicking his ass for a little bit , it is similar to me to base goku vs ssj2 caulifla

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:00 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:All of this is irrelevant anyways because DBS is a continuous story, with the writers making sure to maintain some semblance of fluid continuity for both mediums.

So, using Copy-Vegeta to scale tings is perfectly fine because that arc has been referenced in the continuous story later on, as have other items like Krillin in the forest of illusions, Gohan training with Piccolo, etc.

Speaking of which, I'm wondering where people place Goku, Vegeta, and Broly in their respective forms compared to other characters. For example, before powering up against SS Vegeta, how strong do you guys have base Broly? I have a hard time believing that people would put him as lower than the likes of Piccolo, 18, or Majin Buu if people's preconceptions of base Goku and Vegeta are anything to go by.
I think he was close to ssj vegeta in raw power the moment he stepped off the ship but had no idea how to use that power since he hadn't fought anyone before hence base vegeta kicking his ass for a little bit , it is similar to me to base goku vs ssj2 caulifla
I meant more how base Broly started off, as in the same level as Goku and Vegeta, and how that compares to other characters like 18, Piccolo, Majin Buu, Freeza, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:25 pm

Miracles wrote:when it comes to the world and story of Dragonball, Toriyama is the sole authority.
Technically, his influence doesn’t come from authority, but from the fact that he is given free reign on the creativity aspect of modern Dragon Ball, so the workers try to be faithful to his outlines and recomendations. But in the end, it’s not Toriyama’s work that is being delivered, it’s Toyotaro’s or Nagamine’s. Their embellishments to the plot points outlined by Toriyama are the story we are discussing in this thread.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:27 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:All of this is irrelevant anyways because DBS is a continuous story, with the writers making sure to maintain some semblance of fluid continuity for both mediums.

So, using Copy-Vegeta to scale tings is perfectly fine because that arc has been referenced in the continuous story later on, as have other items like Krillin in the forest of illusions, Gohan training with Piccolo, etc.

Speaking of which, I'm wondering where people place Goku, Vegeta, and Broly in their respective forms compared to other characters. For example, before powering up against SS Vegeta, how strong do you guys have base Broly? I have a hard time believing that people would put him as lower than the likes of Piccolo, 18, or Majin Buu if people's preconceptions of base Goku and Vegeta are anything to go by.
I think he was close to ssj vegeta in raw power the moment he stepped off the ship but had no idea how to use that power since he hadn't fought anyone before hence base vegeta kicking his ass for a little bit , it is similar to me to base goku vs ssj2 caulifla
I meant more how base Broly started off, as in the same level as Goku and Vegeta, and how that compares to other characters like 18, Piccolo, Majin Buu, Freeza, etc.
Stronger than all of them

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Loputousu » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:54 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote: Well he seemed like he was very close to Base Goku. Not quite at his level but close enough that he should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well.

Which would put him far above the likes of Basil and Lavender. Not sure if that's the intention though. In the manga he was weaker than Piccolo and Frost.
He was clowned by base Goku at the ToP though. I wouldn't put them close.
Loputousu wrote:How on earth do you guys explain Android 18 >> Base Goku and Base Goku >>>>> SS3 Gotenks without the two base and retcon theories?

The manga DID confirm the two base theory as canon in a sense, since in the anime Goku was alleged to have SBG instead of SSG. It got retconned to SSG because of the manga. That's exactly what the retcon theory is.
She isn't stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku > Base Gohan [ToP] ~ Piccolo > 18.

We don't know how 18 is compared to SS3 Gotenks though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQu7wRmMQX0

18 lifted an opponent that Base Goku couldn't, with absurd ease.

Anyone who thinks 18, who didn't train at all, is above SS3 Gotenks, is completely out of their mind.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:14 am

Loputousu wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQu7wRmMQX0

18 lifted an opponent that Base Goku couldn't, with absurd ease.

Anyone who thinks 18, who didn't train at all, is above SS3 Gotenks, is completely out of their mind.
Goku was suppressed.

18 was on a similar level to Gamisaras who Piccolo called trash, Piccolo then is on par with base Gohan who is weaker than base Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:08 pm

So I’ve seen this a lot on twitter recently, a lot of people believe Base Goku (end of ToP) is > giant merged zamasu

While I am one who subscribed to the “huge gains during ToP” notion, this seems completely ridiculous to me

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:34 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:So I’ve seen this a lot on twitter recently, a lot of people believe Base Goku (end of ToP) is > giant merged zamasu

While I am one who subscribed to the “huge gains during ToP” notion, this seems completely ridiculous to me
Probably because Goku and Freeza took the lead to confront Jiren, but everyone on that scene was weakened, so trying to guess how strong they were at that moment is moot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm

Would Broly have been able to beat Gogeta if the latter never used blue and just used super saiyan god?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:06 pm

Jack Bz wrote:Would Broly have been able to beat Gogeta if the latter never used blue and just used super saiyan god?
Yes. Gogeta went SSGSS cause it was necessary. Broly handled finishers from Gogeta Blue.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Miracles wrote:when it comes to the world and story of Dragonball, Toriyama is the sole authority.
Technically, his influence doesn’t come from authority, but from the fact that he is given free reign on the creativity aspect of modern Dragon Ball, so the workers try to be faithful to his outlines and recomendations. But in the end, it’s not Toriyama’s work that is being delivered, it’s Toyotaro’s or Nagamine’s. Their embellishments to the plot points outlined by Toriyama are the story we are discussing in this thread.
Incorrect. Toyotoro and TOEI have stated Super is Toriyama's story line. They are just free to add in details but even those details get approved by Toriyama which shows his authority. His movies, which are solely his script alone is the highest authority. Toriyama even made a statement that he alone can change things around with characters cause it is his world and he understands the personalities. The power scaling is totally based on Toriyama's plot. No one can usurp the creator.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:09 pm

Loputousu wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote: Well he seemed like he was very close to Base Goku. Not quite at his level but close enough that he should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well.

Which would put him far above the likes of Basil and Lavender. Not sure if that's the intention though. In the manga he was weaker than Piccolo and Frost.
He was clowned by base Goku at the ToP though. I wouldn't put them close.
Loputousu wrote:How on earth do you guys explain Android 18 >> Base Goku and Base Goku >>>>> SS3 Gotenks without the two base and retcon theories?

The manga DID confirm the two base theory as canon in a sense, since in the anime Goku was alleged to have SBG instead of SSG. It got retconned to SSG because of the manga. That's exactly what the retcon theory is.
She isn't stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku > Base Gohan [ToP] ~ Piccolo > 18.

We don't know how 18 is compared to SS3 Gotenks though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQu7wRmMQX0

18 lifted an opponent that Base Goku couldn't, with absurd ease.

Anyone who thinks 18, who didn't train at all, is above SS3 Gotenks, is completely out of their mind.
She trained before the ToP wth Krillin.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:14 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Piccolo then is on par with base Gohan who is weaker than base Goku.
If Piccolo is only on par with base Gohan, how was he able to blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina with his special beam cannon that he only charged for like, 30 seconds?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:32 pm

DestructoDisc wrote: If Piccolo is only on par with base Gohan, how was he able to blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina with his special beam cannon that he only charged for like, 30 seconds?
It was a Makankosappo beyond his limits. Just like Roshi's Kamehameha on E105 and Vegeta's Final Flash on E122.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:40 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
DestructoDisc wrote: If Piccolo is only on par with base Gohan, how was he able to blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina with his special beam cannon that he only charged for like, 30 seconds?
It was a Makankosappo beyond his limits. Just like Roshi's Kamehameha on E105 and Vegeta's Final Flash on E122.
That, and Piccolo didn't hold back at all since Gohan deduced that Saonel and Pirina had strong enough regeneration that they didn't have to worry about killing them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:13 pm

So in 1 minute of screentime, piccolo can come up with a ssg-ssb level beam? Damn why didn't he just do that vs Freeza or the Androids :lol:

Also 18 sparring with krillin in their front yard for a few hours at best is seriously an explanation for her being above anything from z ?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:32 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:So in 1 minute of screentime, piccolo can come up with a ssg-ssb level beam? Damn why didn't he just do that vs Freeza or the Androids :lol:

Also 18 sparring with krillin in their front yard for a few hours at best is seriously an explanation for her being above anything from z ?
We're talking about the same series that made Freeza way stronger than anyone from Z after only 4 months of torturing Tagoma, and Majin Buu not only getting stronger but also getting a new form after only 2 hours of training with Mr Satan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:38 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:So in 1 minute of screentime, piccolo can come up with a ssg-ssb level beam? Damn why didn't he just do that vs Freeza or the Androids :lol:

Also 18 sparring with krillin in their front yard for a few hours at best is seriously an explanation for her being above anything from z ?
Because they would kill him in that minute since that would be a deathmatch.

This is also a way more experienced Piccolo than the one against Raditz so the Makankosappo could have been improved.

18 can't solo Z. At best she stops at Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:03 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:So in 1 minute of screentime, piccolo can come up with a ssg-ssb level beam? Damn why didn't he just do that vs Freeza or the Androids :lol:

Also 18 sparring with krillin in their front yard for a few hours at best is seriously an explanation for her being above anything from z ?
Because they would kill him in that minute since that would be a deathmatch.

This is also a way more experienced Piccolo than the one against Raditz so the Makankosappo could have been improved.

18 can't solo Z. At best she stops at Ultimate Gohan.
No, she definitely solos Z considering she one-shotted Ribrianne's strongest form like it was nothing, and she did this with an injured ankle. Ribrianne with her weaker form was able to put up a fight with base Goku and impress him to the point where he considers her to be one of the strongest people he met in the ToP (see Broly movie). Ribrianne was also able to block attacks from base Vegeta and impress him in episode 102. ToP base Vegeta is stronger than base Copy Vegeta from the U6 saga as he trained since then. Copy base Vegeta one-shotted SSJ3 Gotenks without even trying. Saying that current 18 stops at Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan is downplaying if you ask me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:17 pm

I reckon so many of these discrepancies could be resolved if you just accept Base Copy Vegeta trouncing Gotenks doesn't mean anything because Gotenks is awful.

Like, 18 could never at any point stand a chance against Super Buu or even Fat Buu at her ToP level, but she's still stronger than Base Goku who is stronger than SS3 Gotenks because SS3 Gotenks might as well be Yamcha in terms of what he represents.

This is why I can never be a "power scaler" I guess. But for what it's worth, it does clear up a lot of issues. The whole point of the ToP was that most of the recurring characters weren't meant to be much stronger than they were in Z (17 being the notable exception) and that they had qualities apart from strength that made them work out. It fits the theme of the arc better if we stop acting like everybody in that tournament could have stopped Buu or Cell back in the day just because a stupid kid got beat up by a purple blob man 50-odd episodes ago.

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