Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:19 am

Well I can see Merged Zamasu being stronger than Goku at the Tournament so let's put it a simple way.
He is for certain stronger. Rosé Goku Black alone stomped every version of Goku and Vegeta from the previous arc (a producer of Super even called him the strongest non-fused warrior except Beerus and Whis, if I recall correctly), thus Fused Zamasu is far beyond those guys.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:48 am

dragon boss z wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:55 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:22 pm
1. There's no evidence that Current Buu > Current SSJ Gohan.
2. Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku when recruiting him, so there's no way he isn't any stronger than he was in Z other than headcanon.
3. "Skill" is overrated in Dragonball. It only makes a difference if 2 characters are at least near-equals. So if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power.
4. There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito). That's just your headcanon.
1. Buu beat a stronger opponent than ssj Gohan tied with.
2. That was skinny Buu.
3. So I guess Roshi is almost as strong as Jiren since he was dodging him in the manga?
4. Lmao, Krillin's power is obviously going to be head canon no matter where you put him. Don't act like your opinion is the more logical one, and that you aren't using head canon. Krillin was literally hiding from bullets a few episodes before the ToP. It's just inconsistent writing and them trying to give Krillin his moment to shine. In the manga he was just instantly beaten without doing anything. He was most likely never meant to be stronger than any ssj, and I doubt any writer for super actually thought that. Yes, the power creep argument could be used, but overall Krillin shouldn't be considered that strong. To say he went from having trouble with Frieza soldiers to being stronger than ssj Goku or final form Frieza in just a few years of not even training that much is ridiculous. If he couldn't reach that level training for the androids or over the 7 year gap to the Buu saga, what makes you think he can magically do it now?
Krillin didn't really have problems with Frieza's soldiers. He was just suffering from PTSD.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:16 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:33 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:53 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:22 pm
Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku

if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power

There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito)
Do you think Krillin can fight Majin Boo?
If he can avoid getting adsorbed.
Anyone with knowledge of the ability can avoid that. I’m mostly intrigued with how exactly people think Krillin had progressed. I have him moderately weaker than No.18.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:51 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:54 am
Not even a 2.
You don't think they even doubled in strength with all the power ups they received?

How could two 2's (Vegeta and Trunks) overpower an 11?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:29 pm

Bullza wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:51 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:54 am
Not even a 2.
You don't think they even doubled in strength with all the power ups they received?

How could two 2's (Vegeta and Trunks) overpower an 11?
Simple. A mixture of plot armor and Fused Zamasu just toying with them. You could tell that Fused Zamasu wasn't actually trying by the fact that he created an identical Holy Wrath literally 5 seconds later, while Trunks and Vegeta fell to the ground exhausted.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:44 pm

He sure as hell looked like he was trying. He created a bigger one for Goku and still looked like he was trying there too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:00 pm

Bullza wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:44 pm
He sure as hell looked like he was trying. He created a bigger one for Goku and still looked like he was trying there too.
If he was trying against Vegeta and Trunks, he wouldn't have casually created an identical or even bigger Holy Wrath a few seconds later, he would have needed more time to recover his energy. Fused Zamasu could have wiped all of them out in an instant if he used his full power from the beginning, even Vegeta realized that he was just messing around with them.

When characters have just gone through a very tiring beam struggle where they put a lot of effort, they are not able to start another mastodontic beam fight soon after.

The inconsistency of the writing makes it so Trunks somehow isn't annihilated by Fused Zamasu in an instant even though he was hardly any match for Rosé Goku Black in the previous episode.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:11 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:00 pm
If he was trying against Vegeta and Trunks, he wouldn't have casually created an identical or even bigger Holy Wrath a few seconds later, he would have needed more time to recover his energy. Fused Zamasu could have wiped all of them out in an instant if he used his full power from the beginning, even Vegeta realized that he was just messing around with them.

When characters have just gone through a very tiring beam struggle where they put a lot of effort, they are not able to start another mastodontic beam fight soon after.

The inconsistency of the writing makes it so Trunks somehow isn't annihilated by Fused Zamasu in an instant even though he was hardly any match for Rosé Goku Black in the previous episode.
Trunks did power up in between fighting Goku Black and Fused Zamasu though so that's fine.

He may have fired the two blasts in quick succession but if he's so powerful then why let himself get overpowered? Even before Goku went overboard, Zamasu couldn't overpower him and he was clearly exerting effort because he was getting pissed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:37 am

Trunks did power up in between fighting Goku Black and Fused Zamasu though so that's fine.
The writers giving Trunks a generic power-up (not even a transformation) that somehow boosts him from being below Rosé Goku Black to rival Fused Zamasu in the span of a few minutes does not make it fine. Previously, Trunks was so outmatched by Black that he didn't even bother with him, he just sent Future Zamasu to kill him, Mai, and Bulma.
He may have fired the two blasts in quick succession
Not just two generic Ki blasts, but two mastodontic spheres.
but if he's so powerful then why let himself get overpowered?
Because he wasn't expecting Vegeta and Trunks to reveal so much hidden power, and when they did, he didn't know how to respond. His face during the split second when he was overpowered by their Galick Gun showed an expression of surprise, if not shock, but he certainly wasn't putting a lot of effort into that Holy Wrath, since he was smirking and gloating the entire time. Same reason why previously Trunks managed to overpower Rosé Goku Black. Because he used his weapon as a decoy and fired a Galick Gun in Black's gut to the point that his opponent, while stronger, couldn't respond in any way. In the end though, that attack merely left a bruise.

Perhaps this is usually glossed over, but you do notice when a character is actually trying and when he isn't. If a character is actually trying to win, they'll make a lot of grunts, have sweat on their face, etc. If they are just messing around, they'll be relaxed. Like Jiren for most of the Tournament of Power, it wasn't until Goku unlocked Mastered Ultra Instinct that he dropped his smug and relaxed face.

It is a fact that Fused Zamasu was just toying with them, which is directly aknowledged by Vegeta.

To be clear, I am talking only about the beam struggle between Fused Zamasu and Vegeta and Trunks. I will agree that Fused Zamasu was putting much more effort against Goku.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:56 am

Bullza wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:11 pm
if he's so powerful then why let himself get overpowered?
Zamas became that guy who refuses to get serious against those [he thinks] inferior to him. This attitude is a clear contrast to Goku’s. That’s why he lost that struggle, even if Goku was much weaker. He used like 10% of his power and Goku used 110% or so.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:11 am

That as well. No one expected Goku to go that far, even Trunks was surprised to see that he went so much beyond his limits that he broke his own arms. You can accuse Fused Zamasu of underestimating his enemy, but not of being weaker. Indeed, even Goku's full power wasn't enough to annihilate the fused being as it only damaged half his face.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:46 pm

Well whether the extent to Trunks power up makes sense or not, he did at least get one.

And say what you will about Zamasu's clash with Vegeta and Trunks but he was trying hard to overpower Goku and he couldn't. It was only when Goku mentioned using his full power did he overwhelm Zamasu.

So either Goku and Vegeta aren't all that far off Zamasu to the point Goku using Kaio-ken can shatter his Halo with one kick or Zamasu is several times stronger and he was overpowered just because.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:55 pm

How well would Gohan and Goku have done against all 7 Cell Jrs AT once? Could either solo?

Goku is fully healthy and Gohan is bloodlusted but can't go SSJ2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:57 pm

Bullza wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:51 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:54 am
Not even a 2.
You don't think they even doubled in strength with all the power ups they received?

How could two 2's (Vegeta and Trunks) overpower an 11?
I don't even have post ToP Blue Goku/Vegeta as a 2.

To answer your question. It's amplification. There's also nothing contradicting that their blast was one that broke their limits and such was way stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:26 pm

But Goku was already matching Zamasu's blast without using his full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:22 am

Bullza wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:26 pm
But Goku was already matching Zamasu's blast without using his full power.
Zamas wasn’t using his full power either. He is pretty much implied to be in the God of Destruction range or close. You can make a parallel with Saint Seiya when Pegasus can sometimes overpower Gold Saints or even Gods.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:47 pm

https://www.google.com/search?q=gogeta+ ... XoTFmyOZxM

Where you guys aware of this Goleta sticker?

I could have sworn all gogeta blue stickers capped at 9600 in power, like UI Goku and Broly. Didn't know there was one with 9700 as its power. Is it secret rare or something?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm

So I was doing some thinking and started wondering......

How much stronger did Broly's Ikari-based Human Oozaru power make him?

The likely answer is "however much arbitrarily stronger it needs to be to service the plot", and the most common technical answer is probably "10 times because it's just Oozaru". However, I'm not so sure.

The way I see it, maybe utilizing this power in a Human form increases its strength several fold compared to its evolutionary source. For example, we see that Broly gains the yellow eyes when SS Vegeta punches him and takes the punch much better before then powering up and starting to gain the advantage. Later on, we see Broly at first go into permanent yellow eyes and green aura before ten bulking up and gaining wild hair like he'd later ave in Super Saiyan.

My current probably-wrong headcanon on the matter is that Broly's unique mutation allows him to initially gain a 10 times boost in power before then expanding on it again with a further 10 times increase as the power levels out. Starts out as permanent base power, then a full new form on top of his base. I believe that this process also repeated when Broly went Super Saiyan; in that case, it was more of an "all-at once" deal that made him 100 times stronger than his Super Saiyan form.

So, in essence, this would also leave SSB at 10000 times stronger than current base form a.k.a. 200 times greater than Super Saiyan, SSG at 500-1000 times stronger than base and 50-100 times greater than Super Saiyan, regular Ikari at 100 times Broly's SS2-level base, and SS Full-Power at 5000 times on top of Ikari. So, Broly was about 2 times weaker than SSB Gogeta's full-power assuming the 2 were exactly equal in Super Saiyan form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:12 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm
So I was doing some thinking and started wondering......

How much stronger did Broly's Ikari-based Human Oozaru power make him?

The likely answer is "however much arbitrarily stronger it needs to be to service the plot", and the most common technical answer is probably "10 times because it's just Oozaru". However, I'm not so sure.

The way I see it, maybe utilizing this power in a Human form increases its strength several fold compared to its evolutionary source. For example, we see that Broly gains the yellow eyes when SS Vegeta punches him and takes the punch much better before then powering up and starting to gain the advantage. Later on, we see Broly at first go into permanent yellow eyes and green aura before ten bulking up and gaining wild hair like he'd later ave in Super Saiyan.

My current probably-wrong headcanon on the matter is that Broly's unique mutation allows him to initially gain a 10 times boost in power before then expanding on it again with a further 10 times increase as the power levels out. Starts out as permanent base power, then a full new form on top of his base. I believe that this process also repeated when Broly went Super Saiyan; in that case, it was more of an "all-at once" deal that made him 100 times stronger than his Super Saiyan form.

So, in essence, this would also leave SSB at 10000 times stronger than current base form a.k.a. 200 times greater than Super Saiyan, SSG at 500-1000 times stronger than base and 50-100 times greater than Super Saiyan, regular Ikari at 100 times Broly's SS2-level base, and SS Full-Power at 5000 times on top of Ikari. So, Broly was about 2 times weaker than SSB Gogeta's full-power assuming the 2 were exactly equal in Super Saiyan form.
I'm not sure. The movie never implied it was a power greater than Oozaru. They just said Oozaru power and left it like that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:12 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm
I'm not sure. The movie never implied it was a power greater than Oozaru. They just said Oozaru power and left it like that.
That vagueness is why I hesitate to just leave it at 10 times and call it a day.

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