Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Zamasu55]

The anime is a total mess, but one thing was clearly stated: Goku, at the start of the saga, is weaker then he was against Fused Zamasu. So, considering that he "trained" just for a couple of days, his ToP version, at least up until the special, is, at most, as strong as his F. Trunks arc self.

Spoiler:

This means nothing. He meant he was stronger than he was in the RoF saga.

[Miracles]

The anime is a total mess, but one thing was clearly stated: Goku, at the start of the saga, is weaker then he was against Fused Zamasu. So, considering that he "trained" just for a couple of days, his ToP version, at least up until the special, is, at most, as strong as his F. Trunks arc self.

Spoiler:

This means nothing. He meant he was stronger than he was in the RoF saga.

That also includes the Trunks arc. Goku fought in exhibition matches afterward.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Now you are just repeating the same debunked arguments over again.

1. Jiren was shown powering up in 122, then again early in 123 before Goku & Vegeta teamed up on him (debunked the bad teamwork argument), then again into his full power in 126 right after Vegeta eliminates Toppo: https://youtu.be/gkPfnR7pzxM

2. The fact that Jiren could casually deflect the U7 Spirit Bomb with just his eyes, while getting knocked down by the Final Flash even when blocking, obviously means that the FF was stronger. Its common sense.

3. There's nothing the story suggesting that GoD Toppo couldn't take on the 1st 2 Omens or Kefla. Especially since God Toppo's power was frequently compared to the 12 Hakaishin (himself being a trainee for one) while Kefla never gor any such comparisons.

4. What evidence do you have for UI not being a fixed multiplier when virtually every other transformation in the franchise is? When was it even stated to be different? Its pure headcanon to assume its different. Goku "Getting deeper into UI" merely means he's going to master it, not that the Omen form itself was getting stronger.

Again no, he powered up due to almost getting rung out due to strategy and didn't power up again until after Goku and Vegeta teamed up in which they pressured him due to bad teamwork. He powered up to his 109/110 level after Vegeta pressured him and stayed there until Goku almost rung him out. There is no debunking on your side. The story presented a reason so it stands.

Jiren didn't get hit by the Spirit Bomb, so your argument is moot. That's all there is to it.

And no Toppo cannot take on UI Omen since he couldn't beat the equivalent of SSB Kaioken.

As Goku got deeper into instinct his aura was getting bigger and bigger until he reached true Ultra Instinct. You have no evidence that UI is some fixed multiplier at all. I don't need a counterargument because you have no argument to begin with.

1. I literally just posted a video of Jiren powering up right after Toppo gets eliminated, yet you still deny Jiren ever powering up smh. You are being delusional.

2. Again you repeat the same falsehood. The fact that Jiren powered up at all against Goku & Vegeta compared to where he was in the hour special logically means he's using more of his strength than what he used against the first Omen. Belmod in one scene even flat out states that he hasn't seen Jiren use that much power in years:https://youtu.be/zYtWbs5DrbQ

None of this would be necessary ifGoku and Vegeta weren't any stronger than they were at the start at the ToP. Its simple logic.

And the "strategy" argument is nonsense since skill and strategy means nothing in DB when one character is way stronger than the other.

3. So what if the Spirit Bomb didnt hit Jiren. The simple fact that he could deflect it with just a causal glare means that he could tank it without any serious damage. At no point in DB have we ever seen characters casually deflect attacks that could seriously hurt them. So your argument doesn't work.

And about Toppo, again you make the fallacy of assuming transformations are tiers and that SSBE from ep.123 onward is only equal to SSBKKx20 from the hour special (despite already being given multiple counter-evidence against your claim).

4. Claims require evidence, and you failed to provide any evidence for your claims about UI. If literally every other transformation in DB is a fixed multiplier, there's no reason to assume UI is any different useless its explicitly stated so (like Ultimate Gohan).

Never said anything about Jiren going full power after Toppo. I was referencing Jiren using a hint of his full power against Goku. Again, you're not following the argument.

You're not presenting an argument. Every instance of Goku and Vegeta "doing good" against Jiren is explained by the story. But instead of using the given reason, you instead claim that it's because of some massive power increase that isn't acknowledged in the story.

Vegeta's Final Flash did no damage to Jiren, so moot point. Nothing states that Jiren couldn't deflect the Final Flash. He took it head on since Vegeta asked and nothing implies that the Spirit Bomb couldn't have done that much if it hit.

Nobody is claiming that transformations are tiers. You simply have no evidence for the power increase you're claiming. This is another non-argument. You have no proof that UI is a fixed multiplier. It requires no acknowledgement. None whatsoever.

[ruler9871]

You're not presenting an argument. Every instance of Goku and Vegeta "doing good" against Jiren is explained by the story. But instead of using the given reason, you instead claim that it's because of some massive power increase that isn't acknowledged in the story.

Most of those instances we're explained by the cast them "breaking their limits" and raising their power. So yes, you are still wrong.

Vegeta's Final Flash did no damage to Jiren, so moot point. Nothing states that Jiren couldn't deflect the Final Flash. He took it head on since Vegeta asked and nothing implies that the Spirit Bomb couldn't have done that much if it hit.

1. The Final Flash clearly had more of an effect on Jiren than the Spirit Bomb. If the SB was stronger Jiren wouldn't have been able to deflect it so easily with just his eyes. Logic 101

2. Jiren didn't take the FF head on, because he blocked it with both hands at the last second, was clearly shocked by it (the SB couldn't do that) and still got knocked to the ground. You'd have to be delusional to still believe the SB was stronger.

Nobody is claiming that transformations are tiers. You simply have no evidence for the power increase you're claiming. This is another non-argument. You have no proof that UI is a fixed multiplier. It requires no acknowledgement. None whatsoever.

You have no proof that UI isn't fixed multiplier. If every other transformation is a fixed multiplier (unless explicitly said otherwise, with was not the case with UI), and if each time Goku used UI Omen was stronger than the last, then logically that would have to mean that Goku himself was naturally getting stronger as the ToP went on. Its that simple.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You're not presenting an argument. Every instance of Goku and Vegeta "doing good" against Jiren is explained by the story. But instead of using the given reason, you instead claim that it's because of some massive power increase that isn't acknowledged in the story.

Most of those instances we're explained by the cast them "breaking their limits" and raising their power. So yes, you are still wrong.

Vegeta's Final Flash did no damage to Jiren, so moot point. Nothing states that Jiren couldn't deflect the Final Flash. He took it head on since Vegeta asked and nothing implies that the Spirit Bomb couldn't have done that much if it hit.

1. The Final Flash clearly had more of an effect on Jiren than the Spirit Bomb. If the SB was stronger Jiren wouldn't have been able to deflect it so easily with just his eyes. Logic 101

2. Jiren didn't take the FF head on, because he blocked it with both hands at the last second, was clearly shocked by it (the SB couldn't do that) and still got knocked to the ground. You'd have to be delusional to still believe the SB was stronger.

Nobody is claiming that transformations are tiers. You simply have no evidence for the power increase you're claiming. This is another non-argument. You have no proof that UI is a fixed multiplier. It requires no acknowledgement. None whatsoever.

You have no proof that UI isn't fixed multiplier. If every other transformation is a fixed multiplier (unless explicitly said otherwise, with was not the case with UI), and if each time Goku used UI Omen was stronger than the last, then logically that would have to mean that Goku himself was naturally getting stronger as the ToP went on. Its that simple.

That's not the reason stated for Goku and Vegeta's performance against Jiren. Vegeta was only stated to break his limits after obtaining SSBE and Goku only with UI. Even after Vegeta broke his limits, his performance in tandem with Goku was only stated to be because of bad teamwork.

The reality is Jiren was never hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you have no argument. By your logic, Kamehameha>Spirit Bomb since Jiren opted to dodge Goku's Kamehameha but stood there against the Spirit Bomb.

UI was never stated to be a fixed multiplier and it was never stated to not be either. It isn't a point of contention. You aren't arguing anything at all.

[ruler9871]

You're not presenting an argument. Every instance of Goku and Vegeta "doing good" against Jiren is explained by the story. But instead of using the given reason, you instead claim that it's because of some massive power increase that isn't acknowledged in the story.

Most of those instances we're explained by the cast them "breaking their limits" and raising their power. So yes, you are still wrong.

Vegeta's Final Flash did no damage to Jiren, so moot point. Nothing states that Jiren couldn't deflect the Final Flash. He took it head on since Vegeta asked and nothing implies that the Spirit Bomb couldn't have done that much if it hit.

1. The Final Flash clearly had more of an effect on Jiren than the Spirit Bomb. If the SB was stronger Jiren wouldn't have been able to deflect it so easily with just his eyes. Logic 101

2. Jiren didn't take the FF head on, because he blocked it with both hands at the last second, was clearly shocked by it (the SB couldn't do that) and still got knocked to the ground. You'd have to be delusional to still believe the SB was stronger.

Nobody is claiming that transformations are tiers. You simply have no evidence for the power increase you're claiming. This is another non-argument. You have no proof that UI is a fixed multiplier. It requires no acknowledgement. None whatsoever.

You have no proof that UI isn't fixed multiplier. If every other transformation is a fixed multiplier (unless explicitly said otherwise, with was not the case with UI), and if each time Goku used UI Omen was stronger than the last, then logically that would have to mean that Goku himself was naturally getting stronger as the ToP went on. Its that simple.

That's not the reason stated for Goku and Vegeta's performance against Jiren. Vegeta was only stated to break his limits after obtaining SSBE and Goku only with UI. Even after Vegeta broke his limits, his performance in tandem with Goku was only stated to be because of bad teamwork.

The reality is Jiren was never hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you have no argument. By your logic, Kamehameha>Spirit Bomb since Jiren opted to dodge Goku's Kamehameha but stood there against the Spirit Bomb.

UI was never stated to be a fixed multiplier and it was never stated to not be either. It isn't a point of contention. You aren't arguing anything at all.

Now you are just repeating yourselves over and over smh.

1. "Strategy" in DB means nothing if your are massively weaker than your opponent. That bad teamwork Goku & Vegeta used on Jiren wouldn't have worked at all if Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger than the 1st Omen in that instance. That's have DB works.

2. You don't to be hit by an attack to know if its stronger or weaker than another. Jiren's reactions to both the SB and FF make it obviously through common sense that the latter was much stronger.

3. I'm using the series's own logic to prove my points, you are just being in denial.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Most of those instances we're explained by the cast them "breaking their limits" and raising their power. So yes, you are still wrong.



1. The Final Flash clearly had more of an effect on Jiren than the Spirit Bomb. If the SB was stronger Jiren wouldn't have been able to deflect it so easily with just his eyes. Logic 101

2. Jiren didn't take the FF head on, because he blocked it with both hands at the last second, was clearly shocked by it (the SB couldn't do that) and still got knocked to the ground. You'd have to be delusional to still believe the SB was stronger.



You have no proof that UI isn't fixed multiplier. If every other transformation is a fixed multiplier (unless explicitly said otherwise, with was not the case with UI), and if each time Goku used UI Omen was stronger than the last, then logically that would have to mean that Goku himself was naturally getting stronger as the ToP went on. Its that simple.

That's not the reason stated for Goku and Vegeta's performance against Jiren. Vegeta was only stated to break his limits after obtaining SSBE and Goku only with UI. Even after Vegeta broke his limits, his performance in tandem with Goku was only stated to be because of bad teamwork.

The reality is Jiren was never hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you have no argument. By your logic, Kamehameha>Spirit Bomb since Jiren opted to dodge Goku's Kamehameha but stood there against the Spirit Bomb.

UI was never stated to be a fixed multiplier and it was never stated to not be either. It isn't a point of contention. You aren't arguing anything at all.

Now you are just repeating yourselves over and over smh.

1. "Strategy" in DB means nothing if your are massively weaker than your opponent. That bad teamwork Goku & Vegeta used on Jiren wouldn't have worked at all if Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger than the 1st Omen in that instance. That's have DB works.

2. You don't to be hit by an attack to know if its stronger or weaker than another. Jiren's reactions to both the SB and FF make it obviously through common sense that the latter was much stronger.

3. I'm using the series's own logic to prove my points, you are just being in denial.

Strategy is the reason that Goku made Jiren use a hint of his full power. So no you're wrong. Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up. It's why Base Goku could contest SSJ2 Caulifla despite them being comparable in the same form.

Jiren opted to deflect the Spirit Bomb yet had no problem getting hit by Final Flash. Can be interpreted that way. By your logic Goku's Kamehameha is >>>>Vegeta's Final Flash since Jiren opted to dodge.

[Zamasu55]

Spoiler:

This means nothing. He meant he was stronger than he was in the RoF saga.

That also includes the Trunks arc. Goku fought in exhibition matches afterward.

Again, it means nothing. Goku just tells Freeza he got stronger since fighting him for the last time, thus in the RoF arc, where he couldn't even use Kaiohken.

[Miracles]

This means nothing. He meant he was stronger than he was in the RoF saga.

That also includes the Trunks arc. Goku fought in exhibition matches afterward.

Again, it means nothing. Goku just tells Freeza he got stronger since fighting him for the last time, thus in the RoF arc, where he couldn't even use Kaiohken.

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

[ruler9871]

That's not the reason stated for Goku and Vegeta's performance against Jiren. Vegeta was only stated to break his limits after obtaining SSBE and Goku only with UI. Even after Vegeta broke his limits, his performance in tandem with Goku was only stated to be because of bad teamwork.

The reality is Jiren was never hit by the Spirit Bomb, so you have no argument. By your logic, Kamehameha>Spirit Bomb since Jiren opted to dodge Goku's Kamehameha but stood there against the Spirit Bomb.

UI was never stated to be a fixed multiplier and it was never stated to not be either. It isn't a point of contention. You aren't arguing anything at all.

Now you are just repeating yourselves over and over smh.

1. "Strategy" in DB means nothing if your are massively weaker than your opponent. That bad teamwork Goku & Vegeta used on Jiren wouldn't have worked at all if Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger than the 1st Omen in that instance. That's have DB works.

2. You don't to be hit by an attack to know if its stronger or weaker than another. Jiren's reactions to both the SB and FF make it obviously through common sense that the latter was much stronger.

3. I'm using the series's own logic to prove my points, you are just being in denial.

Strategy is the reason that Goku made Jiren use a hint of his full power. So no you're wrong. Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up. It's why Base Goku could contest SSJ2 Caulifla despite them being comparable in the same form.

Jiren opted to deflect the Spirit Bomb yet had no problem getting hit by Final Flash. Can be interpreted that way. By your logic Goku's Kamehameha is >>>>Vegeta's Final Flash since Jiren opted to dodge.

1. "Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up"

When has a major opponent in DB ever been taken down by a much weaker character with just skill and strategy? It never really happens.

The Base Goku vs SSJ2 Cauifla argument fails, because Caulifla quickly adapted to Goku's skill level, forcing him to use SSJ2 also, meaning that their bases were around the same level.

2. You still don't get it smh. The mere fact that Jiren could deflect the Spirit Bomb so effortlessly with just is eyes, yet apparently couldn't do this with the Final Flash even with both hands, clearly shows that the FF is stronger.

If a character can easily deflect one attack, but gets phased in some way by another even when blocking, its obvious the later attack is stronger.

3. If Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger in 123 onward than they were in the hour special, then Jiren would have just easily glared them away like fodder like he did to SSBKKx20 Goku in ep.109. And they (along with A17) definitely wouldn't have held up as well as they did in ep.127 against an even stronger Jiren if they didn't get any stronger outside of UI.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Now you are just repeating yourselves over and over smh.

1. "Strategy" in DB means nothing if your are massively weaker than your opponent. That bad teamwork Goku & Vegeta used on Jiren wouldn't have worked at all if Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger than the 1st Omen in that instance. That's have DB works.

2. You don't to be hit by an attack to know if its stronger or weaker than another. Jiren's reactions to both the SB and FF make it obviously through common sense that the latter was much stronger.

3. I'm using the series's own logic to prove my points, you are just being in denial.

Strategy is the reason that Goku made Jiren use a hint of his full power. So no you're wrong. Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up. It's why Base Goku could contest SSJ2 Caulifla despite them being comparable in the same form.

Jiren opted to deflect the Spirit Bomb yet had no problem getting hit by Final Flash. Can be interpreted that way. By your logic Goku's Kamehameha is >>>>Vegeta's Final Flash since Jiren opted to dodge.

1. "Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up"

When has a major opponent in DB ever been taken down by a much weaker character with just skill and strategy? It never really happens.

The Base Goku vs SSJ2 Cauifla argument fails, because Caulifla quickly adapted to Goku's skill level, forcing him to use SSJ2 also, meaning that their bases were around the same level.

2. You still don't get it smh. The mere fact that Jiren could deflect the Spirit Bomb so effortlessly with just is eyes, yet apparently couldn't do this with the Final Flash even with both hands, clearly shows that the FF is stronger.

If a character can easily deflect one attack, but gets phased in some way by another even when blocking, its obvious the later attack is stronger.

3. If Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger in 123 onward than they were in the hour special, then Jiren would have just easily glared them away like fodder like he did to SSBKKx20 Goku in ep.109. And they (along with A17) definitely wouldn't have held up as well as they did in ep.127 against an even stronger Jiren if they didn't get any stronger outside of UI.

Before Caulifla adapted, she was losing to Base Goku. Prior to that, Goku's skill allowed him to overwhelm someone 100x stronger than him. The only time that Caulifla overwhelmed Base Goku was when the skill gap closed. This is what's stated.

Jiren didn't do anything against the Final Flash because Vegeta dared him to take it head on. No such thing happened with the Spirit Bomb. If you want to argue like this then Jiren opted to defend himself against the Spirit Bomb while he didn't see it as necessary against the Final Flash.

Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP. Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective. Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense.

[ruler9871]

Strategy is the reason that Goku made Jiren use a hint of his full power. So no you're wrong. Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up. It's why Base Goku could contest SSJ2 Caulifla despite them being comparable in the same form.

Jiren opted to deflect the Spirit Bomb yet had no problem getting hit by Final Flash. Can be interpreted that way. By your logic Goku's Kamehameha is >>>>Vegeta's Final Flash since Jiren opted to dodge.

1. "Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up"

When has a major opponent in DB ever been taken down by a much weaker character with just skill and strategy? It never really happens.

The Base Goku vs SSJ2 Cauifla argument fails, because Caulifla quickly adapted to Goku's skill level, forcing him to use SSJ2 also, meaning that their bases were around the same level.

2. You still don't get it smh. The mere fact that Jiren could deflect the Spirit Bomb so effortlessly with just is eyes, yet apparently couldn't do this with the Final Flash even with both hands, clearly shows that the FF is stronger.

If a character can easily deflect one attack, but gets phased in some way by another even when blocking, its obvious the later attack is stronger.

3. If Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger in 123 onward than they were in the hour special, then Jiren would have just easily glared them away like fodder like he did to SSBKKx20 Goku in ep.109. And they (along with A17) definitely wouldn't have held up as well as they did in ep.127 against an even stronger Jiren if they didn't get any stronger outside of UI.

Before Caulifla adapted, she was losing to Base Goku. Prior to that, Goku's skill allowed him to overwhelm someone 100x stronger than him. The only time that Caulifla overwhelmed Base Goku was when the skill gap closed. This is what's stated.

Jiren didn't do anything against the Final Flash because Vegeta dared him to take it head on. No such thing happened with the Spirit Bomb. If you want to argue like this then Jiren opted to defend himself against the Spirit Bomb while he didn't see it as necessary against the Final Flash.

Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP. Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective. Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense.

1. Jiren DID defend himself against the Final Flash. Did you even watch the episode? He shockingly blocked it with both hands, he didn't fell the need to do that with the Spirit Bomb.

2. "Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP"

He was tanking hits from a full powered Jiren that were meant for a post-Pride boost SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku. That speaks for itself.

"Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective"

If it would have been effective then he would have used it, simple. Jiren was using even stronger attacks than the glare against Goku & Vegeta since ep.122, yet they didn't blow them away like fodder. That wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger.

"Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense."

You are making the obviously false assumption that 109 SSB Goku = post 121 SSB Goku. The feats and statements in the show itself clearly show that SSB Goku since 122 > SSBKKx20 Goku from 109. You have no evidence against it.

[ruler9871]

So no counter-argument then, huh?

Everything in my last post was aimed at both you and supersaiyangodgogeta

All of your responses specifically addressed him. If you lumped me in there then it didnt matter because you didnt address my arguments.

My post DID address all of your arguments.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

1. "Skill and strategy not mattering is something you made up"

When has a major opponent in DB ever been taken down by a much weaker character with just skill and strategy? It never really happens.

The Base Goku vs SSJ2 Cauifla argument fails, because Caulifla quickly adapted to Goku's skill level, forcing him to use SSJ2 also, meaning that their bases were around the same level.

2. You still don't get it smh. The mere fact that Jiren could deflect the Spirit Bomb so effortlessly with just is eyes, yet apparently couldn't do this with the Final Flash even with both hands, clearly shows that the FF is stronger.

If a character can easily deflect one attack, but gets phased in some way by another even when blocking, its obvious the later attack is stronger.

3. If Goku & Vegeta weren't any stronger in 123 onward than they were in the hour special, then Jiren would have just easily glared them away like fodder like he did to SSBKKx20 Goku in ep.109. And they (along with A17) definitely wouldn't have held up as well as they did in ep.127 against an even stronger Jiren if they didn't get any stronger outside of UI.

Before Caulifla adapted, she was losing to Base Goku. Prior to that, Goku's skill allowed him to overwhelm someone 100x stronger than him. The only time that Caulifla overwhelmed Base Goku was when the skill gap closed. This is what's stated.

Jiren didn't do anything against the Final Flash because Vegeta dared him to take it head on. No such thing happened with the Spirit Bomb. If you want to argue like this then Jiren opted to defend himself against the Spirit Bomb while he didn't see it as necessary against the Final Flash.

Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP. Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective. Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense.

1. Jiren DID defend himself against the Final Flash. Did you even watch the episode? He shockingly blocked it with both hands, he didn't fell the need to do that with the Spirit Bomb.

2. "Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP"

He was tanking hits from a full powered Jiren that were meant for a post-Pride boost SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku. That speaks for itself.

"Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective"

If it would have been effective then he would have used it, simple. Jiren was using even stronger attacks than the glare against Goku & Vegeta since ep.122, yet they didn't blow them away like fodder. That wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger.

"Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense."

You are making the obviously false assumption that 109 SSB Goku = post 121 SSB Goku. The feats and statements in the show itself clearly show that SSB Goku since 122 > SSBKKx20 Goku from 109. You have no evidence against it.

Yeah, he opted to avoid being hit by the Spirit Bomb entirely. He also dodged Goku's Kamehameha which according to your logic makes it>Final Flash.

And? 17 simply surviving Jiren's hits wouldn't mean that he's stronger than before. Is 17 also equal to full power Jiren since they clashed fists?

Goku, Vegeta and 17 being beyond Jiren's glare is simply something you made up. He used it against UI Goku but simply didn't opt for it against Goku, Vegeta and 17.

[ruler9871]

Before Caulifla adapted, she was losing to Base Goku. Prior to that, Goku's skill allowed him to overwhelm someone 100x stronger than him. The only time that Caulifla overwhelmed Base Goku was when the skill gap closed. This is what's stated.

Jiren didn't do anything against the Final Flash because Vegeta dared him to take it head on. No such thing happened with the Spirit Bomb. If you want to argue like this then Jiren opted to defend himself against the Spirit Bomb while he didn't see it as necessary against the Final Flash.

Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP. Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective. Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense.

1. Jiren DID defend himself against the Final Flash. Did you even watch the episode? He shockingly blocked it with both hands, he didn't fell the need to do that with the Spirit Bomb.

2. "Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP"

He was tanking hits from a full powered Jiren that were meant for a post-Pride boost SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku. That speaks for itself.

"Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective"

If it would have been effective then he would have used it, simple. Jiren was using even stronger attacks than the glare against Goku & Vegeta since ep.122, yet they didn't blow them away like fodder. That wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger.

"Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense."

You are making the obviously false assumption that 109 SSB Goku = post 121 SSB Goku. The feats and statements in the show itself clearly show that SSB Goku since 122 > SSBKKx20 Goku from 109. You have no evidence against it.

Yeah, he opted to avoid being hit by the Spirit Bomb entirely. He also dodged Goku's Kamehameha which according to your logic makes it>Final Flash.

And? 17 simply surviving Jiren's hits wouldn't mean that he's stronger than before. Is 17 also equal to full power Jiren since they clashed fists?

Goku, Vegeta and 17 being beyond Jiren's glare is simply something you made up. He used it against UI Goku but simply didn't opt for it against Goku, Vegeta and 17.

1. If the SB was really all that deadly to Jiren, he wouldn't have deflected it so easily. Logic 101

2. I never said A17 was equal to Full Power Jiren. I said that he had to have become stronger than he was at the start of the ToP by some degree to pull off a feat like that.

3. If Suppressed Jiren's glare was that power, why didn't he still use it on Goku & Vegeta in ep.122-126? And your UI argument fails because your are comparing an Awakened Jiren using the glare against a much stronger MUI Goku, to a much weaker Jiren using the glare against weaker characters.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

1. Jiren DID defend himself against the Final Flash. Did you even watch the episode? He shockingly blocked it with both hands, he didn't fell the need to do that with the Spirit Bomb.

2. "Nothing implies that 17 got stronger in the TOP"

He was tanking hits from a full powered Jiren that were meant for a post-Pride boost SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku. That speaks for itself.

"Jiren not opting for his glare doesn't mean it would be ineffective"

If it would have been effective then he would have used it, simple. Jiren was using even stronger attacks than the glare against Goku & Vegeta since ep.122, yet they didn't blow them away like fodder. That wouldn't be possible if they didn't get stronger.

"Jiren clashed with SSB Goku, but glared him away after he used Kaioken. Is 109 SSB Goku>109 SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku. No that obviously doesn't make sense."

You are making the obviously false assumption that 109 SSB Goku = post 121 SSB Goku. The feats and statements in the show itself clearly show that SSB Goku since 122 > SSBKKx20 Goku from 109. You have no evidence against it.

Yeah, he opted to avoid being hit by the Spirit Bomb entirely. He also dodged Goku's Kamehameha which according to your logic makes it>Final Flash.

And? 17 simply surviving Jiren's hits wouldn't mean that he's stronger than before. Is 17 also equal to full power Jiren since they clashed fists?

Goku, Vegeta and 17 being beyond Jiren's glare is simply something you made up. He used it against UI Goku but simply didn't opt for it against Goku, Vegeta and 17.

1. If the SB was really all that deadly to Jiren, he wouldn't have deflected it so easily. Logic 101

2. I never said A17 was equal to Full Power Jiren. I said that he had to have become stronger than he was at the start of the ToP by some degree to pull off a feat like that.

3. If Suppressed Jiren's glare was that power, why didn't he still use it on Goku & Vegeta in ep.122-126? And your UI argument fails because your are comparing an Awakened Jiren using the glare against a much stronger MUI Goku, to a much weaker Jiren using the glare against weaker characters.

No, there's no comparison to be made as Jiren wasn't hit by the Spirit Bomb. You can't claim that the Final Flash is stronger since Jiren opted to not avoid it and even then it did no damage whatsoever. And you still can't refute Jiren dodging Goku's Kamehameha.

And there's no indication that 17 had to become stronger or that he did become stronger. No power increase acknowledged in the story. Funny how that works. Though by your logic you would be claiming that 17 is equal to full power Jiren since they clashed fists.

Regular Jiren used his glare against UI Omen and UI Goku, so clearly it isn't ineffective. He simply didn't opt to use it. You're making stuff up. You can't prove why Jiren didn't use his glare and honestly it isn't even important.

[ssj3kakarot]

Yeah, he opted to avoid being hit by the Spirit Bomb entirely. He also dodged Goku's Kamehameha which according to your logic makes it>Final Flash.

And? 17 simply surviving Jiren's hits wouldn't mean that he's stronger than before. Is 17 also equal to full power Jiren since they clashed fists?

Goku, Vegeta and 17 being beyond Jiren's glare is simply something you made up. He used it against UI Goku but simply didn't opt for it against Goku, Vegeta and 17.

1. If the SB was really all that deadly to Jiren, he wouldn't have deflected it so easily. Logic 101

2. I never said A17 was equal to Full Power Jiren. I said that he had to have become stronger than he was at the start of the ToP by some degree to pull off a feat like that.

3. If Suppressed Jiren's glare was that power, why didn't he still use it on Goku & Vegeta in ep.122-126? And your UI argument fails because your are comparing an Awakened Jiren using the glare against a much stronger MUI Goku, to a much weaker Jiren using the glare against weaker characters.

No, there's no comparison to be made as Jiren wasn't hit by the Spirit Bomb. You can't claim that the Final Flash is stronger since Jiren opted to not avoid it and even then it did no damage whatsoever. And you still can't refute Jiren dodging Goku's Kamehameha.

And there's no indication that 17 had to become stronger or that he did become stronger. No power increase acknowledged in the story. Funny how that works. Though by your logic you would be claiming that 17 is equal to full power Jiren since they clashed fists.

Regular Jiren used his glare against UI Omen and UI Goku, so clearly it isn't ineffective. He simply didn't opt to use it. You're making stuff up. You can't prove why Jiren didn't use his glare and honestly it isn't even important.

I think we can deduce why Jiren didn't glare against some but he seems to against Goku more often. Jiren wanted to fight and trash the strongest person on their team, which was stated to be Goku. He wanted to humiliate and demoralize their strongest warrior, Goku, with his eye balls. He takes Goku's trump card and barely even gives in acknowledgement of it. We see him using the same demoralizing move against Goku many times, but not Vegeta. Why? Because it doesn't matter if Jiren glares an attack away from Vegeta, or if he uses his hands. Vegeta will get mentally wrecked from either outcome. However, it does matter if Jiren uses his eye glare on the strongest team member. It's a shock to the team, not just Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Even if we disregard the manga, we have seen Whis used UI with no changed to his appearance. So why would the automatic assumption be that Beerus goes through some physical change?

When Beerus looks at Goku’s eyes for the first time he recognized Ultra Instinct. And when Goku went the complete version, he also recognized the silver shine. This strongly implies Beerus had seen this change in appearance in someone else other than Goku.

It's not really disputable since Whis trained Beerus and should know where Beerus' power lies. So him saying another god is stronger than Beerus is pretty much an official statement until stated otherwise.

Of course Whis knows Beerus’ true power, but this doesn’t mean all he tells in that response is true, since it was never revealed to Goku that Beerus faked his full power. For instance, Whis is talking about a version of Beerus that Goku can be aware of. So, Whis is still covering that Beerus’ lie in that response too. Beerus’ tone also suggests he is almost trying to tell everyone that Whis is kidding, but he probably remembered that his true power is supposed to be kept a secret. Anyway, Beerus drops that claim right away, so no conclusion can be taken from there.

only the manga claimed Jiren > Vermound, not the anime since you have this '’m not talking about the manga, only the anime'.

Not exactly. When Goku was almost losing the genkidama push game, Whis confirmed that Jiren might be the mortal that is stronger than his God of Destruction.

Whis is talking about Omen about how it's harder to attack without thinking than dodged, and the looked right at Beerus with 'isn't that right', with Beerus only given an scoffed 'Why are you asking me?'. By Beerus' reaction, it's pretty clear the implication is that Beerus can dodged with UI, but cannot attack that well since he thinks before doing so since that's the hardest aspect of UI.

If anything, the implication could be the opposite, that Beerus struggled with learning that part, but could have completed it like Goku did. He just can’t access it at free will.

[Zamasu55]

That also includes the Trunks arc. Goku fought in exhibition matches afterward.

Again, it means nothing. Goku just tells Freeza he got stronger since fighting him for the last time, thus in the RoF arc, where he couldn't even use Kaiohken.

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

No.

[HeroR]

Even if we disregard the manga, we have seen Whis used UI with no changed to his appearance. So why would the automatic assumption be that Beerus goes through some physical change?

When Beerus looks at Goku’s eyes for the first time he recognized Ultra Instinct. And when Goku went the complete version, he also recognized the silver shine. This strongly implies Beerus had seen this change in appearance in someone else other than Goku.

It's not really disputable since Whis trained Beerus and should know where Beerus' power lies. So him saying another god is stronger than Beerus is pretty much an official statement until stated otherwise.

Of course Whis knows Beerus’ true power, but this doesn’t mean all he tells in that response is true, since it was never revealed to Goku that Beerus faked his full power. For instance, Whis is talking about a version of Beerus that Goku can be aware of. So, Whis is still covering that Beerus’ lie in that response too. Beerus’ tone also suggests he is almost trying to tell everyone that Whis is kidding, but he probably remembered that his true power is supposed to be kept a secret. Anyway, Beerus drops that claim right away, so no conclusion can be taken from there.

only the manga claimed Jiren > Vermound, not the anime since you have this '’m not talking about the manga, only the anime'.

Not exactly. When Goku was almost losing the genkidama push game, Whis confirmed that Jiren might be the mortal that is stronger than his God of Destruction.

Whis is talking about Omen about how it's harder to attack without thinking than dodged, and the looked right at Beerus with 'isn't that right', with Beerus only given an scoffed 'Why are you asking me?'. By Beerus' reaction, it's pretty clear the implication is that Beerus can dodged with UI, but cannot attack that well since he thinks before doing so since that's the hardest aspect of UI.

If anything, the implication could be the opposite, that Beerus struggled with learning that part, but could have completed it like Goku did. He just can’t access it at free will.

The aura perhaps, but not everything else since again, none of the angels go through any physical changes and nothing suggests that Beerus is the type of transform to get new power.

Why wouldn't the response in the clip be true? The only counterpart was Beerus who is far less trustworthy than Whis and it was never stated anywhere that Beerus' true power needed to be a secret.. There was never a hard counter to Whis' statement and if anything, the events of the TOP only confirmed Whis' statement. Also, that statement has nothing to do with how Goku's viewed Beerus and his full power since the point Whis was making that there maybe a mortal that is stronger than a God of Destruction, who Goku was still inferiority to. The whole thing reads like splitting hairs to try to find some kind of loophole why Whis' statement can't be taken at face value.

Which relates to that god being stronger than Beerus. So if you're willing to accept 'mortal stronger than a god' means stronger than Belmond, then you should also accept the second part of that same statement that god being stronger than Beerus since it was all the same statement.

Goku can't used UI freely since it's tied to a transformation for him. Beerus shouldn't have any issue using UI at will since nothing suggests he needs to transform to used UI.