Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Again, it means nothing. Goku just tells Freeza he got stronger since fighting him for the last time, thus in the RoF arc, where he couldn't even use Kaiohken.

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

No.

If you were only going to give an one word response, why bother even posting?

Overall, however, Goku is stronger than he was in the Future Trunks Saga, or at least better skilled, since Goku only used Blue Kaioken once in the entire Future Trunks Saga and that was after he got most of his limbs disabled. However, in the beginning of the Universal Survival Saga, Goku was able to used Blue Kaioken several times without any issue, even against fodder like Bergoma, when he refused to used it at any time before until he literally had no other option. That includes when Black bragged about murdering his family.

As for Goku growing stronger in the actual TOP, there is some evidence for this. In 123 we have this: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=121

The line Belmond spoke in the context of the TOP makes no sense if Jiren used more power in 110 since the time between 110 and 123 was around 23 or so minutes. Most people don't used the phase, 'quite a long time' in the context of 30 minutes. And despite that increase, Goku in just Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan still put up a better fight against Jiren with no burst Blue Kaioken like he did in 109 and Goku was so shocked when he felt just a hint of Jiren's true power that he backed away and was scared out of Blue: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=177. Which again, doesn't make much sense in the context of the TOP since Jiren glared his Spirit Bomb, which hints that Jiren at that one moment was much stronger than his 110 self to the point of shocking Goku.

For the sake of argument, let's say that 123 Jiren was still weaker than 110 Jiren who fought UI Goku, that still has to be an increase for Goku to standup to 123 Jiren who without trying smashed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku into the ground, while 123 Jiren was somewhat trying and Goku without Blue Kaioken burst was able to get into a fist scuffle and block an attack.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, I was thinking recently.

Zamasu is supposed to be the strongest among all Kaioshin, as plainly stated in the manga and implied in the anime.

Some of the Kaioshin, namely some of Universe 7's that fought Moro and Pure Buu, were quite strong; even Shin, often laughed off as kinda weak, was only surpassed by the likes of Cell. Yet Super Saiyan Goku and characters at a similar level are shown to rival Zamasu.

So, wouldn't that at least tell us that Goku and co., at the very least as Super Saiyans, are stronger than Majin Buu?

[Nokra]

So, I was thinking recently.

Zamasu is supposed to be the strongest among all Kaioshin, as plainly stated in the manga and implied in the anime.

Some of the Kaioshin, namely some of Universe 7's that fought Moro and Pure Buu, were quite strong; even Shin, often laughed off as kinda weak, was only surpassed by the likes of Cell. Yet Super Saiyan Goku and characters at a similar level are shown to rival Zamasu.

So, wouldn't that at least tell us that Goku and co., at the very least as Super Saiyans, are stronger than Majin Buu?

Zamsu isn't that strong just immortal

[ZombieVito]

So, I was thinking recently.

Zamasu is supposed to be the strongest among all Kaioshin, as plainly stated in the manga and implied in the anime.

Some of the Kaioshin, namely some of Universe 7's that fought Moro and Pure Buu, were quite strong; even Shin, often laughed off as kinda weak, was only surpassed by the likes of Cell. Yet Super Saiyan Goku and characters at a similar level are shown to rival Zamasu.

So, wouldn't that at least tell us that Goku and co., at the very least as Super Saiyans, are stronger than Majin Buu?

I guess?

Base Goku was already stronger than Shin by the start of the ToP arc in the manga so as a Super Saiyan he should be around Evil Boo's tier or higher.

[ruler9871]

So, I was thinking recently.

Zamasu is supposed to be the strongest among all Kaioshin, as plainly stated in the manga and implied in the anime.

Some of the Kaioshin, namely some of Universe 7's that fought Moro and Pure Buu, were quite strong; even Shin, often laughed off as kinda weak, was only surpassed by the likes of Cell. Yet Super Saiyan Goku and characters at a similar level are shown to rival Zamasu.

So, wouldn't that at least tell us that Goku and co., at the very least as Super Saiyans, are stronger than Majin Buu?

Zamsu isn't that strong just immortal

Present Zamasu was stronger than Post-BoG SSJ2 Goku. That's hella strong compared to all the other Kais in the franchise (except Chronoa). Whereas the strongest known Kai before Super was the South Kaioshin, who was only slightly stronger than Kid Buu.

[Miracles]

Again, it means nothing. Goku just tells Freeza he got stronger since fighting him for the last time, thus in the RoF arc, where he couldn't even use Kaiohken.

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

you are actually right. However, somepeople over-exagerate how strong they get. We have people who claim 123 blue goku > blue vegito.

[ruler9871]

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

you are actually right. However, somepeople over-exagerate how strong they get. We have people who claim 123 blue goku > blue vegito.

Scaling wise, that's actually kinda true if you mean Blue Kaioken.

[Hugo Boss]

Why wouldn't the response in the clip be true? The only counterpart was Beerus who is far less trustworthy than Whis and it was never stated anywhere that Beerus' true power needed to be a secret.. There was never a hard counter to Whis' statement and if anything, the events of the TOP only confirmed Whis' statement. Also, that statement has nothing to do with how Goku's viewed Beerus and his full power since the point Whis was making that there maybe a mortal that is stronger than a God of Destruction, who Goku was still inferiority to. The whole thing reads like splitting hairs to try to find some kind of loophole why Whis' statement can't be taken at face value.

It’s a recurring plot point of DB Super that Beerus will be threatened by Goku and Vegeta in some part of the story, but there is still no clue of when this will happen. So far, this Whis’ claim is the only thing we have at the moment to measure Beerus and considering nothing really happened later to back it up, a flashback or something like that, I don’t see why it should be taken at face value. It’s not like there is evidence that Beerus have lied when he implied he hadn’t lost a single fight against the other Gods of Destruction. So.. what exactly can be inferred from that? Since they are in a disagreement, one of them is wrong, we don’t know which one.

A interesting aspect. First Whis told them a rumor, but presented it as a fact. It was only after he confirmed the rumor. Considering Beerus and Whis have been keeping some secrets from our friends, like Beerus’ power, and had revealed some of them, like Monaka being a fraud and the ToP being about Universe erasure, I can see them trying to picture Jiren as someone far more formidable than the idea of Monaka, at least to Goku. They have done it in the previous tournament, most likely did it again. The difference is that in the second time ironically the enemy was as strong as the team antecipated.

Goku can't used UI freely since it's tied to a transformation for him. Beerus shouldn't have any issue using UI at will since nothing suggests he needs to transform to used UI.

I don’t see why the difficulty in using Ultra Instinct should be related to it being accessible by transformation or not. I think it’s about how perfected the skill is for each one of them. Goku could have more efficiency than Beerus or vice-verse, depending on the cirscunstances.

[Zamasu55]

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

No.

If you were only going to give an one word response, why bother even posting?

Overall, however, Goku is stronger than he was in the Future Trunks Saga, or at least better skilled, since Goku only used Blue Kaioken once in the entire Future Trunks Saga and that was after he got most of his limbs disabled. However, in the beginning of the Universal Survival Saga, Goku was able to used Blue Kaioken several times without any issue, even against fodder like Bergoma, when he refused to used it at any time before until he literally had no other option. That includes when Black bragged about murdering his family.

As for Goku growing stronger in the actual TOP, there is some evidence for this. In 123 we have this: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=121

The line Belmond spoke in the context of the TOP makes no sense if Jiren used more power in 110 since the time between 110 and 123 was around 23 or so minutes. Most people don't used the phase, 'quite a long time' in the context of 30 minutes. And despite that increase, Goku in just Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan still put up a better fight against Jiren with no burst Blue Kaioken like he did in 109 and Goku was so shocked when he felt just a hint of Jiren's true power that he backed away and was scared out of Blue: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=177. Which again, doesn't make much sense in the context of the TOP since Jiren glared his Spirit Bomb, which hints that Jiren at that one moment was much stronger than his 110 self to the point of shocking Goku.

For the sake of argument, let's say that 123 Jiren was still weaker than 110 Jiren who fought UI Goku, that still has to be an increase for Goku to standup to 123 Jiren who without trying smashed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku into the ground, while 123 Jiren was somewhat trying and Goku without Blue Kaioken burst was able to get into a fist scuffle and block an attack.

Because I already said that Goku getting weaker a the start of the ToP arc is what led to the Tournament itself. And Goku's line to Freeza doesn't really matter that much, as he was of course referring to his old RoF self when he said "you are not the only one who got stronger".

[Zamasu55]

It means Goku is stronger than his future Trunks arc self, from beginning to end.

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

Of course, but later in the Tournament Goku is indeed stronger than he was against Zamasu. Not before, in my opinion. I also refer to regular Blue Goku.

[HeroR]

No.

If you were only going to give an one word response, why bother even posting?

Overall, however, Goku is stronger than he was in the Future Trunks Saga, or at least better skilled, since Goku only used Blue Kaioken once in the entire Future Trunks Saga and that was after he got most of his limbs disabled. However, in the beginning of the Universal Survival Saga, Goku was able to used Blue Kaioken several times without any issue, even against fodder like Bergoma, when he refused to used it at any time before until he literally had no other option. That includes when Black bragged about murdering his family.

As for Goku growing stronger in the actual TOP, there is some evidence for this. In 123 we have this: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=121

The line Belmond spoke in the context of the TOP makes no sense if Jiren used more power in 110 since the time between 110 and 123 was around 23 or so minutes. Most people don't used the phase, 'quite a long time' in the context of 30 minutes. And despite that increase, Goku in just Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan still put up a better fight against Jiren with no burst Blue Kaioken like he did in 109 and Goku was so shocked when he felt just a hint of Jiren's true power that he backed away and was scared out of Blue: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=177. Which again, doesn't make much sense in the context of the TOP since Jiren glared his Spirit Bomb, which hints that Jiren at that one moment was much stronger than his 110 self to the point of shocking Goku.

For the sake of argument, let's say that 123 Jiren was still weaker than 110 Jiren who fought UI Goku, that still has to be an increase for Goku to standup to 123 Jiren who without trying smashed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku into the ground, while 123 Jiren was somewhat trying and Goku without Blue Kaioken burst was able to get into a fist scuffle and block an attack.

Because I already said that Goku getting weaker a the start of the ToP arc is what led to the Tournament itself. And Goku's line to Freeza doesn't really matter that much, as he was of course referring to his old RoF self when he said "you are not the only one who got stronger".

Except Goku wasn't really weaker since from the time of the Future Trunks Saga to the TOP, Goku went from only using Blue Kaioken once after he got most of his limbs disabled, to being able to spam it with no issues.

Also, Freeza himself got much stronger since Resurrection 'F', so Goku wasn't just referring to his old Resurrection 'F' self. He was talking in general.

[HeroR]

Why wouldn't the response in the clip be true? The only counterpart was Beerus who is far less trustworthy than Whis and it was never stated anywhere that Beerus' true power needed to be a secret.. There was never a hard counter to Whis' statement and if anything, the events of the TOP only confirmed Whis' statement. Also, that statement has nothing to do with how Goku's viewed Beerus and his full power since the point Whis was making that there maybe a mortal that is stronger than a God of Destruction, who Goku was still inferiority to. The whole thing reads like splitting hairs to try to find some kind of loophole why Whis' statement can't be taken at face value.

It’s a recurring plot point of DB Super that Beerus will be threatened by Goku and Vegeta in some part of the story, but there is still no clue of when this will happen. So far, this Whis’ claim is the only thing we have at the moment to measure Beerus and considering nothing really happened later to back it up, a flashback or something like that, I don’t see why it should be taken at face value. It’s not like there is evidence that Beerus have lied when he implied he hadn’t lost a single fight against the other Gods of Destruction. So.. what exactly can be inferred from that? Since they are in a disagreement, one of them is wrong, we don’t know which one.

A interesting aspect. First Whis told them a rumor, but presented it as a fact. It was only after he confirmed the rumor. Considering Beerus and Whis have been keeping some secrets from our friends, like Beerus’ power, and had revealed some of them, like Monaka being a fraud and the ToP being about Universe erasure, I can see them trying to picture Jiren as someone far more formidable than the idea of Monaka, at least to Goku. They have done it in the previous tournament, most likely did it again. The difference is that in the second time ironically the enemy was as strong as the team antecipated.

Goku can't used UI freely since it's tied to a transformation for him. Beerus shouldn't have any issue using UI at will since nothing suggests he needs to transform to used UI.

I don’t see why the difficulty in using Ultra Instinct should be related to it being accessible by transformation or not. I think it’s about how perfected the skill is for each one of them. Goku could have more efficiency than Beerus or vice-verse, depending on the cirscunstances.

That isn't the same as 'Beerus' true power is a secret'. It isn't like Whis is sworn or something to never reveal how strong Beerus is.

That Whis' claim is huge and is honestly all we really need since Whis would knows better than anyone outside of Toriyama himself where Beerus' power lies. So yeah, it should. be taken at face value, especially if you're willing to take Jiren > Belmond at face value since all we really have is a statement. Like we never seen Jiren fight Belmond.

This isn't about whether Beerus lost a battle. Whis' statement was 'this god is stronger than Beerus' and Beerus' only counter was 'it was only arm wrestling'. However, since Whis knows where Beerus' strength lies, he wouldn't need to see a full fight to know how strong he is compared to another God of Destruction. Like Vados more or less implied that Beerus > Champa despite all their on-screen fights ending in draws and their fights being stopped before they got out of hand.

Whis haven't been keeping a secret about Beerus' power. No one in the show asked him how strong Beerus was and Beerus never said anything about Whis keeping such a secret. It is only a 'secret' from us the audience and even then Whis more or less said this mortal, Jiren, is stronger than Beerus. So yeah, it wasn't a secret. Monaka's secret was quickly revealed by everyone except Goku and the same happened with the TOP.

I doubt Whis pulled a Monaka since a) Monaka only happened because of Beerus, b) Whis never supported the Monaka lie and even mocked Beerus for it, c) it was Goku who asked the question and Whis had no reason to give a white lie about it even as encouragement since he could have simply said 'I don't know, but why take the risk going in a man short', and d) Beerus himself seemed new to this rumor and didn't agree with Whis' assessment.

It is a transformation in Goku's case since not only does he gains UI in that form, he also gains a stupidly high increase in power and speed. UI shouldn't effects one's battle power. So for Beerus, his incomplete UI would be just like Omen, able to dodge, but not attack that well. If he could both attack and defend perfectly, than he mastered UI since UI for him has nothing to do with stamina or going into a transformation. He would just have it.

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

you are actually right. However, somepeople over-exagerate how strong they get. We have people who claim 123 blue goku > blue vegito.

Blue Goku from 123 probably is stronger than Vegito Blue based on statements from that episode. Namely, Shin called Jiren 'strong, plain and simple' in 110 when he glared the Spirit Bomb and said they have never faced anyone like him and he has seen Merged Zamasu, yet Jiren used more power in 123 to the point Belmond commented on it and Goku actually did better with no Blue Kaioken burst.

Since in the anime Vegito Blue was only a little stronger than Merged Zamasu, that means that Jiren in 110 was probably stronger than Vegito Blue. So scaling wise based on statements, Goku would be within the power range of Vegito Blue if not stronger.

[PFM18]

Since in the anime Vegito Blue was only a little stronger than Merged Zamasu, that means that Jiren in 110 was probably stronger than Vegito Blue. So scaling wise based on statements, Goku would be within the power range of Vegito Blue if not stronger.

That's not true at all. Vegetto did a power-up sequence in the anime and then proceeded to completely dominate Merged Zamasu before de-fusing. And the comments about him being strong were in reference to him being super suppressed and STILL being able to overpower Goku at his best, not that he was stronger than anything they had seen before at that particular time. Otherwise, 123 Goku would have to have been literally a minimum of 40,000x stronger than his FT arc self for him to surpass his previous Vegetto self considering that Base Vegetto~SSB Goku holds true.

[Miracles]

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

you are actually right. However, somepeople over-exagerate how strong they get. We have people who claim 123 blue goku > blue vegito.

That's ultimately in speculation land.

No.

You're factually wrong. The plot itself requires Goku and Vegeta to grow stronger every arc. Stronger than their past arc selves due to the villains always being stronger than the last.

Of course, but later in the Tournament Goku is indeed stronger than he was against Zamasu. Not before, in my opinion. I also refer to regular Blue Goku.

That is factually false as well. That logic simply defy's the reality of the story.

[Zamasu55]

If you were only going to give an one word response, why bother even posting?

Overall, however, Goku is stronger than he was in the Future Trunks Saga, or at least better skilled, since Goku only used Blue Kaioken once in the entire Future Trunks Saga and that was after he got most of his limbs disabled. However, in the beginning of the Universal Survival Saga, Goku was able to used Blue Kaioken several times without any issue, even against fodder like Bergoma, when he refused to used it at any time before until he literally had no other option. That includes when Black bragged about murdering his family.

As for Goku growing stronger in the actual TOP, there is some evidence for this. In 123 we have this: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=121

The line Belmond spoke in the context of the TOP makes no sense if Jiren used more power in 110 since the time between 110 and 123 was around 23 or so minutes. Most people don't used the phase, 'quite a long time' in the context of 30 minutes. And despite that increase, Goku in just Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan still put up a better fight against Jiren with no burst Blue Kaioken like he did in 109 and Goku was so shocked when he felt just a hint of Jiren's true power that he backed away and was scared out of Blue: https://youtu.be/WPpY14BSjJc?t=177. Which again, doesn't make much sense in the context of the TOP since Jiren glared his Spirit Bomb, which hints that Jiren at that one moment was much stronger than his 110 self to the point of shocking Goku.

For the sake of argument, let's say that 123 Jiren was still weaker than 110 Jiren who fought UI Goku, that still has to be an increase for Goku to standup to 123 Jiren who without trying smashed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku into the ground, while 123 Jiren was somewhat trying and Goku without Blue Kaioken burst was able to get into a fist scuffle and block an attack.

Because I already said that Goku getting weaker a the start of the ToP arc is what led to the Tournament itself. And Goku's line to Freeza doesn't really matter that much, as he was of course referring to his old RoF self when he said "you are not the only one who got stronger".

Except Goku wasn't really weaker since from the time of the Future Trunks Saga to the TOP, Goku went from only using Blue Kaioken once after he got most of his limbs disabled, to being able to spam it with no issues.

Also, Freeza himself got much stronger since Resurrection 'F', so Goku wasn't just referring to his old Resurrection 'F' self. He was talking in general.

That's a plot-hole, because Goku remembered about the Tournament when he was harmed by a bullet... him using Kaiokhen makes no sense, but that's the way it is.

[Hugo Boss]

It is a transformation in Goku's case since not only does he gains UI in that form, he also gains a stupidly high increase in power and speed. UI shouldn't effects one's battle power. So for Beerus, his incomplete UI would be just like Omen, able to dodge, but not attack that well. If he could both attack and defend perfectly, than he mastered UI since UI for him has nothing to do with stamina or going into a transformation. He would just have it.

Goku used the Ultra Instinct at 100%, yet he didn’t master it.

[dragon boss z]

So, I was thinking recently.

Zamasu is supposed to be the strongest among all Kaioshin, as plainly stated in the manga and implied in the anime.

Some of the Kaioshin, namely some of Universe 7's that fought Moro and Pure Buu, were quite strong; even Shin, often laughed off as kinda weak, was only surpassed by the likes of Cell. Yet Super Saiyan Goku and characters at a similar level are shown to rival Zamasu.

So, wouldn't that at least tell us that Goku and co., at the very least as Super Saiyans, are stronger than Majin Buu?

Even base Goku should be stronger than Majin Buu, at least in the anime. Manga versions, I would say ssj should be above majin Buu.
ToP Frieza should still be stronger than Buu, even in the manga, and ssj Caulifla was able to push him to gold.

[HeroR]

Since in the anime Vegito Blue was only a little stronger than Merged Zamasu, that means that Jiren in 110 was probably stronger than Vegito Blue. So scaling wise based on statements, Goku would be within the power range of Vegito Blue if not stronger.

That's not true at all. Vegetto did a power-up sequence in the anime and then proceeded to completely dominate Merged Zamasu before de-fusing. And the comments about him being strong were in reference to him being super suppressed and STILL being able to overpower Goku at his best, not that he was stronger than anything they had seen before at that particular time. Otherwise, 123 Goku would have to have been literally a minimum of 40,000x stronger than his FT arc self for him to surpass his previous Vegetto self considering that Base Vegetto~SSB Goku holds true.

Vegito didn’t power-up, Zamasu did and he survived a point blank Final Kamehameha. So it wasn’t a dominantion, otherwise Zamasu’s body should have been destroyed by Vegito.

[HeroR]

It is a transformation in Goku's case since not only does he gains UI in that form, he also gains a stupidly high increase in power and speed. UI shouldn't effects one's battle power. So for Beerus, his incomplete UI would be just like Omen, able to dodge, but not attack that well. If he could both attack and defend perfectly, than he mastered UI since UI for him has nothing to do with stamina or going into a transformation. He would just have it.

Goku used the Ultra Instinct at 100%, yet he didn’t master it.

He mastered the technique as the episode title suggests. What he didn’t do was master the form that allowed him to used UI to begin with.

Because I already said that Goku getting weaker a the start of the ToP arc is what led to the Tournament itself. And Goku's line to Freeza doesn't really matter that much, as he was of course referring to his old RoF self when he said "you are not the only one who got stronger".

Except Goku wasn't really weaker since from the time of the Future Trunks Saga to the TOP, Goku went from only using Blue Kaioken once after he got most of his limbs disabled, to being able to spam it with no issues.

Also, Freeza himself got much stronger since Resurrection 'F', so Goku wasn't just referring to his old Resurrection 'F' self. He was talking in general.

That's a plot-hole, because Goku remembered about the Tournament when he was harmed by a bullet... him using Kaiokhen makes no sense, but that's the way it is.

Not the proper meaning of plot hole.

Him being harm by a bullet was because he got caught off-guard, which is what he meant by ‘rusty’, not that he became so weak that bullets could hurt him.

And this even holds true in the manga where Goku in the TOP was able to hold and maintain Master Blue without his body breaking unlike the Future Trunks Saga. So in both the manga and anime, Goku was stronger or at least better fit before the TOP than his Future Trunks Saga counterpart.