Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Monkey King
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 am

HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 am
Super Saiyan Trunks kick Rose in that same episode. And that's was before Trunks blocked and parried Black's blade.
That in of itself is another example of Super's horrible writing when it comes to power levels.

Trunks went from getting the shit kicked out of him by base black to being able to hold off SSJR Black for no reason at all :lol:

There is no consistency in this show, having a character be "SSJB level" means absolutely nothing.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:07 am

So, Zamas felt Goku was a threat with just SS2 but he is SSBlue level? Is SS Trunks at SSBlue level too?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:07 am
So, Zamas felt Goku was a threat with just SS2 but he is SSBlue level? Is SS Trunks at SSBlue level too?
That’s Present Zamasu. Future Zamasu is 17 years older and never fought Goku as a Super Saiyan 2. It’s like comparing Future Trunks to Present Trunks.

And I guess Super Saiyan Trunks is Blue level since he parried Black’s attack’s and licked him into a building.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:48 am

The Monkey King wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 am
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 am
Super Saiyan Trunks kick Rose in that same episode. And that's was before Trunks blocked and parried Black's blade.
That in of itself is another example of Super's horrible writing when it comes to power levels.

Trunks went from getting the shit kicked out of him by base black to being able to hold off SSJR Black for no reason at all :lol:

There is no consistency in this show, having a character be "SSJB level" means absolutely nothing.
It's blatantly obvious that Toei wanted to involve Trunks in his own arc but realized that he would never stand a chance against Black and Zamasu without constant asspulls.
So, Zamas felt Goku was a threat with just SS2 but he is SSBlue level? Is SS Trunks at SSBlue level too?
Interesting, while it wasn't your intention, you reminded me of the fact that Future Zamasu was always careless. He didn't think anyone was a threat to him, as he was immortal and quite powerful in his own right. The only time he truly realized the threat mortals posed was when Trunks used the Mafuba on him. That's the first time when he dropped his absurd arrogance and aknowledged that his opponents posed an actual threat.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:22 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 am
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 am
Super Saiyan Trunks kick Rose in that same episode. And that's was before Trunks blocked and parried Black's blade.
That in of itself is another example of Super's horrible writing when it comes to power levels.

Trunks went from getting the shit kicked out of him by base black to being able to hold off SSJR Black for no reason at all :lol:

There is no consistency in this show, having a character be "SSJB level" means absolutely nothing.
In that example, that has more to do with Trunks being powered up then Super's scaling since everyone was fine in terms of scaling.

That and if Blue level meant nothing, half the TOP wouldn't have been taken out by Goku and Vegeta in their base and Super Saiyan forms, which people complained about since it made those characters fodder. We had the same complaint about the Champa Saga when the entire U6 team outside of Hit got wiped by Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan forms. Goku didn't even need to transform to beat Botamo.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am
Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am
There are people who still think future Zamas is blue level? Don't let TOEI's bad/inconsistent writing fool you.

Yes, Future Zamasu in the anime is Blue level. People who keep using how he got beat up by Super Saiyan Trunks always ignores that Trunks did this Black: https://youtu.be/vYzvTXMo02k?t=82
That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am
Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am
There are people who still think future Zamas is blue level? Don't let TOEI's bad/inconsistent writing fool you.

Yes, Future Zamasu in the anime is Blue level. People who keep using how he got beat up by Super Saiyan Trunks always ignores that Trunks did this Black: https://youtu.be/vYzvTXMo02k?t=82
That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.
It is an inconsistency, I agree, days ago or a day ago or whatever time Trunks spent in the past, SS Trunks couldn't touch base Black, and his father as a SSB was almost killed by Rose Black moments ago.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am



Yes, Future Zamasu in the anime is Blue level. People who keep using how he got beat up by Super Saiyan Trunks always ignores that Trunks did this Black: https://youtu.be/vYzvTXMo02k?t=82
That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.
It is an inconsistency, I agree, days ago or a day ago or whatever time Trunks spent in the past, SS Trunks couldn't touch base Black, and his father as a SSB was almost killed by Rose Black moments ago.
It's ludicrous how people complain about TOEI's bad writing, yet try to use it for accurate scaling. We know for a fact in both anime and manga plot lines that SSJ Trunks beats future Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:23 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 am
Future Zamasu is 17 years older and never fought Goku as a Super Saiyan 2. It’s like comparing Future Trunks to Present Trunks.
We have reasons to believe Trunks differs greatly from his counterpart. There are none in relation to Zamas. Future Zamas never needed to be that strong to begin with.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:40 pm

Bullza wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:27 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:44 pm
Future Zamasu in the anime was undeniably SSB level. He was trading & blocking attacks from SSB Goku/Vegeta and SSJ Rage.
numerous times.
A lot of characters have traded blows with people weaker than themselves. Krillin traded Kamehameha's with him. Both Android 17 and Golden Frieza have traded blows with him and the former called the latter a monster.

Zamasu was kicked around by Super Saiyan Trunks and he would have died had he not been immortal.

Rage Trunks kicked Zamasu once and he was pretty much out of it while he went back to actually trading blows with Goku Black.

The same thing happened in the second fight. Trunks blasts Zamasu once and sends him away while he was Goku Black. Zamasu only then fights him when Trunks has exhausted himself and he reverts back to Super Saiyan and even then he can't finish him off.

He's a weakling in both the anime and the manga.
1. A) SSB Goku was explicitly holding back against Krillin (this had been explained to death already). B) Android 17 himself was holding back against SSB Goku in their fight, and A17 has numerous feats & statements that show that he's SSB level in both the anime & manga. C) A17 was merely complimenting Freeza, stronger characters compliment weaker ones all the time (like Jiren complimenting SSB Vegeta). So that's a weak argument.

2. Future Zamasu was not out of it when Trunks kicked him. SSB Goku give him a full-blown beating in ep.63 yet he still wasn't fatigued. You are making stuff out.

"Zamasu only then fights him when Trunks has exhausted himself"

Pure headcanon. F.Zamasu is shown constantly fighting SSB Goku/Vegeta when they are at their max all the time along with Black throughout the arc.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am



Yes, Future Zamasu in the anime is Blue level. People who keep using how he got beat up by Super Saiyan Trunks always ignores that Trunks did this Black: https://youtu.be/vYzvTXMo02k?t=82
That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.
It is an inconsistency, I agree, days ago or a day ago or whatever time Trunks spent in the past, SS Trunks couldn't touch base Black, and his father as a SSB was almost killed by Rose Black moments ago.
Base Black when Vegeta 1st fights him =/= Base Black in his previous appearances. They are not the same levels of strength, and Black was stated to rapidly be getting stronger throught the arc. So no, its not an inconsistency.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:45 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm


That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.
It is an inconsistency, I agree, days ago or a day ago or whatever time Trunks spent in the past, SS Trunks couldn't touch base Black, and his father as a SSB was almost killed by Rose Black moments ago.
It's ludicrous how people complain about TOEI's bad writing, yet try to use it for accurate scaling. We know for a fact in both anime and manga plot lines that SSJ Trunks beats future Zamasu.
The manga's scaling is even worse (especially in both the Black & ToP sagas). With nonsense like SSJ1 Black getting the upper hand on SSB Vegeta, yet getting owned by him as SSJ Rose.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:23 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 am
Future Zamasu is 17 years older and never fought Goku as a Super Saiyan 2. It’s like comparing Future Trunks to Present Trunks.
We have reasons to believe Trunks differs greatly from his counterpart. There are none in relation to Zamas. Future Zamas never needed to be that strong to begin with.
This is a bad argument. Nobody "needs" to be as strong as they are in the sense you are arguing, and Future Zamasu has far to many feats and statements in the anime that prove that he's SSB level.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am
There are people who still think future Zamas is blue level? Don't let TOEI's bad/inconsistent writing fool you.
There's far more evidence for Future Zamasu for being SSB level in the anime than against it.

The anime & manga don't have the same power levels, and don't even bother trying to use the "Toriyama outline" argument for powerscaling, because both Toei & Toyotaro frequently break with it to do their own things.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:59 pm

The situation is ambiguous. You cannot ignore the first half of episode 57, where Future Zamasu is seen trading blows with Blue Goku and even overpower him for a moment. Furthermore, if Future Zamasu were just a bug compared to Goku and Vegeta, even a ki blast could blow him to smithereens, something which obviously never happened (immortality doesn't negate damage, and if Zamasu were so much weaker he wouldn't be able to brush off ki blasts from SSB level characters). And yet we also have people like Trunks who in the span of the arc went from being weaker than Base Black, to being on the level of FUSED ZAMASU. Powerscaling in this arc is a mess. It's not even explained what Trunks' new transformation is.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:23 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 am
Future Zamasu is 17 years older and never fought Goku as a Super Saiyan 2. It’s like comparing Future Trunks to Present Trunks.
We have reasons to believe Trunks differs greatly from his counterpart. There are none in relation to Zamas. Future Zamas never needed to be that strong to begin with.
Except why would Future Zamasu be only as little stronger than Present Zamasu when Goku said that in time Zamasu could rival Beerus? Zamasu was training the whole time to be a Supreme Kai and was dedicated to his training.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:01 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am
Miracles wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am
There are people who still think future Zamas is blue level? Don't let TOEI's bad/inconsistent writing fool you.

Yes, Future Zamasu in the anime is Blue level. People who keep using how he got beat up by Super Saiyan Trunks always ignores that Trunks did this Black: https://youtu.be/vYzvTXMo02k?t=82
That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.
And Trunks didn’t bully Zamasu again until he got Rage. So your point?
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:59 pm
The situation is ambiguous. You cannot ignore the first half of episode 57, where Future Zamasu is seen trading blows with Blue Goku and even overpower him for a moment. Furthermore, if Future Zamasu were just a bug compared to Goku and Vegeta, even a ki blast could blow him to smithereens, something which obviously never happened (immortality doesn't negate damage, and if Zamasu were so much weaker he wouldn't be able to brush off ki blasts from SSB level characters). And yet we also have people like Trunks who in the span of the arc went from being weaker than Base Black, to being on the level of FUSED ZAMASU. Powerscaling in this arc is a mess. It's not even explained what Trunks' new transformation is.
Goku did blow Zamasu’s head off in 61.

Trunks was also not on the level of Merged Zamasu. He only did anything after he got the Spirit Bomb Sword.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:13 pm

Goku did blow Zamasu’s head off in 61.
To be fair it was a shot fired at point blank. Anything fired that close will do a tremendous amount of damage. That does not necessarily show that Future Zamasu wasn't around the level of a Super Saiyan Blue.
Trunks was also not on the level of Merged Zamasu. He only did anything after he got the Spirit Bomb Sword.
I was referring to Trunks and Vegeta being able to push back Fused Zamasu's attack despite Fused Zamasu easily overpowering both of them 10 seconds earlier.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:13 pm
Goku did blow Zamasu’s head off in 61.
To be fair it was a shot fired at point blank. Anything fired that close will do a tremendous amount of damage. That does not necessarily show that Future Zamasu wasn't around the level of a Super Saiyan Blue.
Trunks was also not on the level of Merged Zamasu. He only did anything after he got the Spirit Bomb Sword.
I was referring to Trunks and Vegeta being able to push back Fused Zamasu's attack despite Fused Zamasu easily overpowering both of them 10 seconds earlier.
Not saying he isn’t Blue level. Only that a normal Ki blast did ‘kill’ Zamasu.

That was a depress all and out push that Trunks was losing until Vegeta stepped in, similar to what Goku and Vegeta did earlier when they charged Merged Zamasu and broke his spirit bird after getting murk before . And it didn’t even do anything besides make Zamasu mad. It wasn’t like how Goku solo Zamasu a few seconds later and did more damage than both of them together.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:19 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:13 pm

I was referring to Trunks and Vegeta being able to push back Fused Zamasu's attack despite Fused Zamasu easily overpowering both of them 10 seconds earlier.
Why wouldn't they be able to push that attack back? They put all they had at that point into the Father-Son Galick Gun.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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