Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:21 pm

Never expected the discussion behing my question to go that far lol. Well, whenever there is power scaling, it is just inevitable. :lol:
P O W E R

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:30 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:59 pm The situation is ambiguous. You cannot ignore the first half of episode 57, where Future Zamasu is seen trading blows with Blue Goku and even overpower him for a moment. Furthermore, if Future Zamasu were just a bug compared to Goku and Vegeta, even a ki blast could blow him to smithereens, something which obviously never happened (immortality doesn't negate damage, and if Zamasu were so much weaker he wouldn't be able to brush off ki blasts from SSB level characters). And yet we also have people like Trunks who in the span of the arc went from being weaker than Base Black, to being on the level of FUSED ZAMASU. Powerscaling in this arc is a mess. It's not even explained what Trunks' new transformation is.
We don't ignore E57. What happens in the episode is not enough to put him in that level. Especially when other episodes portrait him as weaker than SS2 Trunks.

So they traded blows? Zamasu in the manga also does that and even evades SSB Goku. It means nothing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm

ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:45 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 pm

It is an inconsistency, I agree, days ago or a day ago or whatever time Trunks spent in the past, SS Trunks couldn't touch base Black, and his father as a SSB was almost killed by Rose Black moments ago.
It's ludicrous how people complain about TOEI's bad writing, yet try to use it for accurate scaling. We know for a fact in both anime and manga plot lines that SSJ Trunks beats future Zamasu.
The manga's scaling is even worse (especially in both the Black & ToP sagas). With nonsense like SSJ1 Black getting the upper hand on SSB Vegeta, yet getting owned by him as SSJ Rose.
I think you better pay attention to the narration. The manga explained why SSJ Black was getting the upper hand on Blue Vegeta because of Zenkai. Vegeta then later trained and came back and handled SSJ Rose Black with the red and blue switch up technique.
ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:52 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am There are people who still think future Zamas is blue level? Don't let TOEI's bad/inconsistent writing fool you.
There's far more evidence for Future Zamasu for being SSB level in the anime than against it.

The anime & manga don't have the same power levels, and don't even bother trying to use the "Toriyama outline" argument for powerscaling, because both Toei & Toyotaro frequently break with it to do their own things.
There is no evidence for Future Zamas being Blue level in the anime other than bad writing. The narrator, Goku and Vegeta all mention Zamas immortality. Goku even one shots Zamas and even kills him on another occasion but he keeps regenerating. Both the anime and manga have him lower than Blue.
HeroR wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:01 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm
HeroR wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 am


Yes, Future Zamasu in the anime is Blue level. People who keep using how he got beat up by Super Saiyan Trunks always ignores that Trunks did this Black: https://youtu.be/vYzvTXMo02k?t=82
That is the inconsistency I'm talking about with TOEI. Trunks never did that again to Black as a Super Saiyan but gets pwned.
And Trunks didn’t bully Zamasu again until he got Rage. So your point?
Bad comparison. Zamas was defeated in a straight up one on one fight. Trunks even KILLS him twice in the bout but due to his regeneration he survives. Trunks only gets the jump on Black Rose but never ever fights him head up and beats him like he did Future Zamas.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:37 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm
There is no evidence for Future Zamas being Blue level in the anime other than bad writing.
Then you are being in denial
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm The narrator, Goku and Vegeta all mention Zamas immortality. Goku even one shots Zamas and even kills him on another occasion but he keeps regenerating. Both the anime and manga have him lower than Blue.
1. There's not a single line from the anime that says Future Zamasu is weaker than SSB level.

2. Goku never "one-shots" F.Zamasu at any point in the anime, and how can Goku kill him if he's immortal?

3. Immortality has nothing to do with raw strength nor even durabilty (aside from not dying).

4. F.Zamasu in the anime was shown fighting on par with SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks numerous times on separate occasions, clearly showing that Toei intended for him to be a SSB level fighter. Just because you don't like it doesn't its an inconsistency.

5. The anime at one point even points out that Future Zamasu often drops his guard and takes hits on purpose just so he can indulge in his Immortality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsILuIe9xiY.

That automatically debunks any downplay aimed at F.Zamasu from the anime version.
Last edited by ruler9871 on Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm

HeroR wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 am Super Saiyan Trunks kick Rose in that same episode. And that's was before Trunks blocked and parried Black's blade.
A similar thing happened in the manga with Super Saiyan Trunks kicking Goku Black into a building. It was a one off.

In the manga Goku Black was far stronger than Trunks who was in turn stronger than Zamasu. This is the same in the anime as well.

Zamasu was all but useless hardly able to ever hit anyone. Most the times that he does hit someone is only in unison with Goku Black.
ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:40 pmAndroid 17 himself was holding back against SSB Goku in their fight, and A17 has numerous feats & statements that show that he's SSB level in both the anime & manga
Goku was also holding back. Android 17 was shown to not be on Goku's level at all. Unable to even stand while in the Black Hole while Goku blew it apart.

Unable to even faze Toppo while Goku could. Same thing with Gohan he traded blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku and his Kamehameha didn't do diddly to Toppo unlike what Goku's did.

Ribrianne traded blows with Android 17 who traded blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku but was then beaten by Base Vegeta.
Future Zamasu was not out of it when Trunks kicked him.
You can see it when Rage Trunks fights them the first time. He traded blows with Goku Black for a short period, after deflecting the blast, he kicks Zamasu one time and then goes back to trading blows with Goku Black while Zamasu is down on one knee struggling to stand up.
Pure headcanon.
That's not what head canon is. In the second fight he again easily blasts away Zamasu then trades blows with Goku Black. He exhausts himself and turns back to Super Saiyan and mentions his lack of energy. Zamasu fought that Trunks and still couldn't hit him more than once.
F.Zamasu is shown constantly fighting SSB Goku/Vegeta when they are at their max all the time along with Black throughout the arc.
Yes and he does nothing of any significance the entire time. Him trading blows initially with a somewhat confused Goku is the most impressive thing that he did the entire arc.

Otherwise he was completely overpowered by Super Saiyan Trunks and should have died. Was comically backhanded like he was dirt by Goku. Was far overpowered on two occasions by Rage Trunks. Was potentially saved by Goku Black when Trunks was attempting to blow him up. Was far overpowered again by Goku while Vegeta was overpowering Goku Black. Then he was caught up in a Marina.

He's useless, like I said, he genuinely is able to hit someone through his own power... probably less than 5 times in the entire arc and all the fights he's involved with.

Then of course Super Saiyan 2 Goku overpowered Zamasu as well and in the manga they said Trunks was stronger than him. He's kinda weak.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 pm

Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm
Goku was also holding back. Android 17 was shown to not be on Goku's level at all. Unable to even stand while in the Black Hole while Goku blew it apart.
The Black hole thing is largely an inconsistency all-around for everyone involved.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm Unable to even faze Toppo while Goku could. Same thing with Gohan he traded blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku and his Kamehameha didn't do diddly to Toppo unlike what Goku's did.
The same Base Toppo that tanked a SSB Goku Kamehameha with zero damage, and forced Goku to use SSBKK times an unknown # in the Pre-Tourney. Being weaker than Base Toppo doesn't automatically mean being weaker than SSB level. Not all SSB-level characters are equals in power.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm Ribrianne traded blows with Android 17 who traded blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku but was then beaten by Base Vegeta.
A17 was toying with Ribrianne and her friends. This was clearly shown and stated.

When the hell has 17 ever been beaten by Base Vegeta? And if you were referring to Ribrianne, then when the hell has she ever traded blows with SSB Goku?
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm
You can see it when Rage Trunks fights them the first time. He traded blows with Goku Black for a short period, after deflecting the blast, he kicks Zamasu one time and then goes back to trading blows with Goku Black while Zamasu is down on one knee struggling to stand up.
But he was not knocked out & unconscious by the kick, so your argument is still false. Plus, its stated in the anime by Trunks that F.Zamasu often drops his guard and tanks hits on purpose to indulge in his immortality. Debunking your argument here.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm That's not what head canon is. In the second fight he again easily blasts away Zamasu then trades blows with Goku Black. He exhausts himself and turns back to Super Saiyan and mentions his lack of energy. Zamasu fought that Trunks and still couldn't hit him more than once.
You you said is headcanon because its never stated in the show itself. Future Zamasu has beated and hit Rage Trunks & SSB Goku/Vegeta numerous times in the anime.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm Yes and he does nothing of any significance the entire time. Him trading blows initially with a somewhat confused Goku is the most impressive thing that he did the entire arc.
He's clearly damaged and beaten up Rage Trunks & SSB Goku/Vegeta numerous times in the anime. You are clearly just being in denial.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm Otherwise he was completely overpowered by Super Saiyan Trunks and should have died. Was comically backhanded like he was dirt by Goku. Was far overpowered on two occasions by Rage Trunks. Was potentially saved by Goku Black when Trunks was attempting to blow him up. Was far overpowered again by Goku while Vegeta was overpowering Goku Black. Then he was caught up in a Marina.

He's useless, like I said, he genuinely is able to hit someone through his own power... probably less than 5 times in the entire arc and all the fights he's involved with.
Again, more baseless headcanon smh. Future Zamasu was clearly fighting near-evenly with Rage Trunks in the episode Trunks trying to self-destruct with him.

"Was far overpowered again by Goku"

Bad argument.

Goku & Vegeta got much stronger in that episode compared to the last times they were in the Future Timeline (thanks to Vegeta's 6 months training in the Rosat & Goku's major zenkai after Black stomped him). That's like arguing that Rose Black himself isn't SSB level just because SSB Vegeta stomped him badly in that episode.

Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:01 pm Then of course Super Saiyan 2 Goku overpowered Zamasu as well and in the manga they said Trunks was stronger than him. He's kinda weak.
1. Present Zamasu =/= Future Zamasu

2. The anime & manga don't have the same power levels. This should be obvious since the U6 arc.

3. If Future Zamasu wasn't SSB level in the anime then he wouldn't be able to trade-blows & damage an on-guard, full powered SSB Goku/Vegeta at all. Common sense.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm

ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:23 pmThe same Base Toppo that tanked a SSB Goku Kamehameha with zero damage
Not quite, Toppo had to put up his guard and after taking the attack was marked and out of breathe with a damaged costume.

He didn't even bother to put up his guard against Gohan's and it had no effect on him at all. He just smiled.

Gohan isn't on Goku's level even though they were shown to trade blows. Same thing with Zamasu.
A17 was toying with Ribrianne and her friends. This was clearly shown and stated.
They never said that. They said he was kidding around in terms of his personality and him acting the part of an evil person. They said nothing about him holding back against her.
When the hell has 17 ever been beaten by Base Vegeta? And if you were referring to Ribrianne, then when the hell has she ever traded blows with SSB Goku?
No, Ribrianne traded blows with Android 17, Android 17 traded blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

Though this doesn't mean anything because Ribrianne is so weak that she can't beat Base Vegeta. So trading blows doesn't mean anything, Ribrianne is weaker than Android 17 just as Zamasu is weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
But he was not knocked out & unconscious by the kick, so your argument is still false.
I didn't say he was knocked out, I said he was out of it because while Goku Black was actually fighting back. Zamasu was on the ground struggling to even get to his feet from one kick.
Plus, its stated in the anime by Trunks that F.Zamasu often drops his guard and tanks hits on purpose to indulge in his immortality.
And it's made very apparent when it's done. Like when he was in the middle of fighting Goku, he just stood there, watching the other battle and start commenting on it which lead to Goku just socking him in the jaw mid sentence and calling him out for letting his guard down.

Now you've got people who think that every time he's hit in the middle of a skirmish and gets hit it's a matter of "Oh he was just letting his guard down there".
You you said is headcanon because its never stated in the show itself. Future Zamasu has beated and hit Rage Trunks & SSB Goku/Vegeta numerous times in the anime.
Which is head canon? That is what was said and shown. He exhausted himself launching Goku Black into a mountain which is why he dropped out of his Rage form. He then said taking into account the amount of energy he had left he could only do that one attack. He was a drained Super Saiyan Trunks and Zamasu still needed help.

And no you can go check this form your self because I did. Count how many times Zamasu actually hits Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. Most of the times he does so is either along with Goku Black or because of him.

The amount of times he actually hits someone through his own skill alone is pitifully little.
He's clearly damaged and beaten up Rage Trunks & SSB Goku/Vegeta numerous times in the anime. You are clearly just being in denial.
That's never happened, not once did he beat up anyone. Goku Black is the one that actually beat people. Zamasu has never beaten a single person on his own.
Future Zamasu was clearly fighting near-evenly with Rage Trunks in the episode Trunks trying to self-destruct with him.
The only part of that episode where Zamasu fought Rage Trunks was when Trunks fired a single blast at him and sent him away for a while. He wasn't in his Rage form when he tried to self destruct him, that was just Super Saiyan.
The anime & manga don't have the same power levels. This should be obvious since the U6 arc.
They aren't the exact same but the general idea is roughly the same. Goku Black was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, Trunks was weaker than all three and Zamasu was weaker than Trunks.

That's true for both versions.
If Future Zamasu wasn't SSB level in the anime then he wouldn't be able to trade-blows & damage an on-guard, full powered SSB Goku/Vegeta at all.
Trading blows means little. Super Saiyan Gohan traded blows with Super Saiyan Goku so that's meaningless.

Zamasu did nothing of any significance to anyone throughout the entire arc by himself, never doing any notable damage to anyone, hardly even getting an attack in and was completely overpowered by Trunks and would have died ordinarily.

He's weaker than Trunks just like the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:16 am

ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:37 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm
There is no evidence for Future Zamas being Blue level in the anime other than bad writing.
Then you are being in denial
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm The narrator, Goku and Vegeta all mention Zamas immortality. Goku even one shots Zamas and even kills him on another occasion but he keeps regenerating. Both the anime and manga have him lower than Blue.
1. There's not a single line from the anime that says Future Zamasu is weaker than SSB level.

2. Goku never "one-shots" F.Zamasu at any point in the anime, and how can Goku kill him if he's immortal?

3. Immortality has nothing to do with raw strength nor even durabilty (aside from not dying).

4. F.Zamasu in the anime was shown fighting on par with SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks numerous times on separate occasions, clearly showing that Toei intended for him to be a SSB level fighter. Just because you don't like it doesn't its an inconsistency.

5. The anime at one point even points out that Future Zamasu often drops his guard and takes hits on purpose just so he can indulge in his Immortality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsILuIe9xiY.

That automatically debunks any downplay aimed at F.Zamasu from the anime version.
Goku in Episode 61 blew off Zamas head, Vegeta remarks that he is invincible and even Bulma stated that he went right back to normal after taking that attack. In episode 63 Goku's two hitter puts Zamas into the ground and Zamas regenerates. Goku then states "He really is immortal." Meaning that those attacks actually would of killed him if he wasn't immortal. Even SSJ Trunks killed Zamas TWICE in their bout but thanks to his immortality he can't die. The fact that those attacks would of destroyed him proves he isn't Blue level. It's only because of Zamas immortality that he survived the fighting.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:14 am

Future Zamasu isn't useless because he is inherently weak, if he is useless (debatable), he is simply because he stopped training after he got immortality. Zamasu was a natural prodigy who, according to Goku, could even rival Beerus one day. Also he was a formidable opponent, even without immortality. Just because the good guys are absurdly OP due to the power creep in the series doesn't mean that a Kai like Zamasu (the strongest Kai that has ever lived) is weak. It's not that Future Zamasu is weak, it's that the good guys have received so many transformations that any sort of balance has gone out of the window.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:12 am

ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:47 pm Nobody "needs" to be as strong as they are in the sense you are arguing, and Future Zamasu has far to many feats and statements in the anime that prove that he's SSB level.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Which sense? Future Zamas is immortal, he doesn’t need to be powerful. The point of changing bodies with Goku is for him to be powerful. And you say he could be without a Saiyan body?!
HeroR wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm Except why would Future Zamasu be only as little stronger than Present Zamasu when Goku said that in time Zamasu could rival Beerus? Zamasu was training the whole time to be a Supreme Kai and was dedicated to his training.
Zamas’ actions after meeting Goku should tell enough. Most likely, Goku is referring to Zamas’ potential. Future Zamas was one-shot material for SSBlue. That’s why he wished for immortality.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:12 am
ruler9871 wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:47 pm Nobody "needs" to be as strong as they are in the sense you are arguing, and Future Zamasu has far to many feats and statements in the anime that prove that he's SSB level.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Which sense? Future Zamas is immortal, he doesn’t need to be powerful. The point of changing bodies with Goku is for him to be powerful. And you say he could be without a Saiyan body?!
HeroR wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm Except why would Future Zamasu be only as little stronger than Present Zamasu when Goku said that in time Zamasu could rival Beerus? Zamasu was training the whole time to be a Supreme Kai and was dedicated to his training.
Zamas’ actions after meeting Goku should tell enough. Most likely, Goku is referring to Zamas’ potential. Future Zamas was one-shot material for SSBlue. That’s why he wished for immortality.
That only tells us that Goku be even stronger that Zamasu at his own peak, which proves to be true with Goku gaining UI. And if he was one-shot material, why didn't Goku one-shot him in 57? He wished for immortality to be the ultimate shield for Black, not because he was complete weakling. You're mixing the anime and manga.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:01 pm

Exactly. He's the ultimate meat shield since he can't die AND have perfect coordination with Black. They thrive on teamwork.

But Future Zamasu was never that strong by himself, he was actually on par with SSJ2 Trunks, which is enough for him to aid Black in most fights since they usually double team their opponents.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:57 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:01 pm Exactly. He's the ultimate meat shield since he can't die AND have perfect coordination with Black. They thrive on teamwork.

But Future Zamasu was never that strong by himself, he was actually on par with SSJ2 Trunks, which is enough for him to aid Black in most fights since they usually double team their opponents.
He fought against Goku in his Blue form several times and the Super Saiyan 2 Trunks he fought also kicked Rose into a building. That and Black sent Zamasu by himself to kill Trunks in 64, and Goku and Vegeta wanted to go save Trunks but was distracted by Black. Which make no sense if Trunks could just knock him around until backup shows up.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
Not quite, Toppo had to put up his guard and after taking the attack was marked and out of breathe with a damaged costume.

He didn't even bother to put up his guard against Gohan's and it had no effect on him at all. He just smiled.

Gohan isn't on Goku's level even though they were shown to trade blows. Same thing with Zamasu.
1. Base Toppo was using more power against Gohan, 17 and Freeza than he did against SSB Goku (he was shown powering up before engaging the 3 and they pushed him into his Hakaishin mode). And Goku's Kamehameha still did no real damage regardless.

2. Base Toppo didn't fill the need to use his God form when Goku pulled out Blue Kaioken.

3. Even the narrator said that SSB Goku and Ultimate Gohan were equally matched when they fought. Plus, even the manga has Gohan at CSSB level due to matching SSJ1 Kefla.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
They never said that. They said he was kidding around in terms of his personality and him acting the part of an evil person. They said nothing about him holding back against her.
If he was kidding around with Ribrianne and her friends (and showed no effort fighting them) then that obviously means he was holding back against them. Its stupid to think otherwise.

A17 was serious with Toppo and Jiren, that's when he was going all out. Your argument fails.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
No, Ribrianne traded blows with Android 17, Android 17 traded blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

Though this doesn't mean anything because Ribrianne is so weak that she can't beat Base Vegeta. So trading blows doesn't mean anything, Ribrianne is weaker than Android 17 just as Zamasu is weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
Again, I already pointed out that A17 was holding back against Ribrianne and you already admitted that he was toying with them. So he's logically way stronger than her.

And being weaker than SSB Goku at any point in the Black arc doesn't mean you aren't SSB level.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
I didn't say he was knocked out, I said he was out of it because while Goku Black was actually fighting back. Zamasu was on the ground struggling to even get to his feet from one kick.
False. He got right back up after the kick.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
And it's made very apparent when it's done. Like when he was in the middle of fighting Goku, he just stood there, watching the other battle and start commenting on it which lead to Goku just socking him in the jaw mid sentence and calling him out for letting his guard down.
Wrong again. The show doesn't need to say Zamasu is dropping his guard everytime he does (especially when its made clear when he does by just looking at him). Using this to downplay him is ridiculous.

Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
Which is head canon? That is what was said and shown. He exhausted himself launching Goku Black into a mountain which is why he dropped out of his Rage form. He then said taking into account the amount of energy he had left he could only do that one attack. He was a drained Super Saiyan Trunks and Zamasu still needed help.

And no you can go check this form your self because I did. Count how many times Zamasu actually hits Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. Most of the times he does so is either along with Goku Black or because of him.

The amount of times he actually hits someone through his own skill alone is pitifully little.
Now you are just being in denial again.

1. Trunks deliberately avoided trying to fight F.Zamasu normally after shooting the Galick Gun, that doesn't prove anything. If he was just SSJ2 level then Trunks wouldn't have needed to be so cautious in luring him into his trap.

2. Future Zamasu is shown getting multiple hits on SSB Goku/Vegeta and Rage Trunks nearly everytime they fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ9cWbGF1g

Here Goku (going all out in SSB) even states that there's something different about Zamasu's power when he first clashes with F.Zamasu in the future. Direct acknowledgement that he's not equal to his Present counterpart.
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm That's never happened, not once did he beat up anyone. Goku Black is the one that actually beat people. Zamasu has never beaten a single person on his own.
He was clearly slapping SSB Goku around in their first fight.

[
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
They aren't the exact same but the general idea is roughly the same. Goku Black was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, Trunks was weaker than all three and Zamasu was weaker than Trunks.

That's true for both versions.
Wrong again.

1. Manga Black was never stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta, and he loses to Vegeta everytime they fight. Compare this to the anime where Black is declared the strongest unfused character below Beerus the moment he reveals SSJ Rose (and again when pulls out the scythe until Trunks makes the Hope Sword).

2. SSJ Rage Trunks is stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta for most of the anime version, and he surpasses them (and Black) even further with the Hope Sword.

3. The general idea for power levels is almost never the same between the anime & manga. Hit, Merged Zamasu and Kale are the biggest examples.

[
Bullza wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
Trading blows means little. Super Saiyan Gohan traded blows with Super Saiyan Goku so that's meaningless.

Zamasu did nothing of any significance to anyone throughout the entire arc by himself, never doing any notable damage to anyone, hardly even getting an attack in and was completely overpowered by Trunks and would have died ordinarily.

He's weaker than Trunks just like the manga.
1. This is a False Analogy Fallacy. Neither SSJ Gohan & SSJ Goku were going all out in that fight, but both of them were according to both the cast and the narrator himself during the SSB Goku vs Ultimate Gohan battle.

2. I've already debunked your claims about F.Zamasu above.

3. Again, being weaker than a certain SSB level character from a certain arc doesn't mean said character isn't SSB level. Tranformations are not tiers, and SSB ranges of power is a pretty wide thing. RoF Golden Freeza is complete fodder to SSB Goku for the ToP, does that mean he isn't SSB level by your logic?

Your arguments are based on the popular falsehood that characters in DB never get any stronger outside of new transformations.
Last edited by ruler9871 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:16 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:16 am
Goku in Episode 61 blew off Zamas head, Vegeta remarks that he is invincible and even Bulma stated that he went right back to normal after taking that attack. In episode 63 Goku's two hitter puts Zamas into the ground and Zamas regenerates. Goku then states "He really is immortal." Meaning that those attacks actually would of killed him if he wasn't immortal. Even SSJ Trunks killed Zamas TWICE in their bout but thanks to his immortality he can't die. The fact that those attacks would of destroyed him proves he isn't Blue level. It's only because of Zamas immortality that he survived the fighting.
1. Zamasu took that head shot on purpose and he smiled as Goku charged at him, because (as Trunks explained) F.Zamasu likes to drop his guard on purpose and indulge in his immortality. So that doesn't prove a thing.

Even U6 arc SSB Goku could one-shot RoF Golden Freeza, so does that mean RoF Golden Freeza isn't SSB level? Being weaker than one SSB level character doesn't mean you aren't SSB level. Transformations are not tiers and SSB-level is board range of power.

2. Ep.63 SSB Goku >>> Start of Black arc SSB Goku. Your argument is based on the fallacy that SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks had the exact same level of strength throughout the whole Black arc, which is explicitly false by both feats & statements. And even if did stay the same throughout the arc, it still wouldn't prove that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:22 pm

ruler9871 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:16 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:16 am
Goku in Episode 61 blew off Zamas head, Vegeta remarks that he is invincible and even Bulma stated that he went right back to normal after taking that attack. In episode 63 Goku's two hitter puts Zamas into the ground and Zamas regenerates. Goku then states "He really is immortal." Meaning that those attacks actually would of killed him if he wasn't immortal. Even SSJ Trunks killed Zamas TWICE in their bout but thanks to his immortality he can't die. The fact that those attacks would of destroyed him proves he isn't Blue level. It's only because of Zamas immortality that he survived the fighting.
1. Zamasu took that head shot on purpose and he smiled as Goku charged at him, because (as Trunks explained) F.Zamasu likes to drop his guard on purpose and indulge in his immortality. So that doesn't prove a thing.

Even U6 arc SSB Goku could one-shot RoF Golden Freeza, so does that mean RoF Golden Freeza isn't SSB level? Being weaker than one SSB level character doesn't mean you aren't SSB level. Transformations are not tiers and SSB-level is board range of power.

2. Ep.63 SSB Goku >>> Start of Black arc SSB Goku. Your argument is based on the fallacy that SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks had the exact same level of strength throughout the whole Black arc, which is explicitly false by both feats & statements. And even if did stay the same throughout the arc, it still wouldn't prove that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level.
The fact that Zamasu was still able to put up some type of fight with Blue Goku before and after his strength boost just proves TOEI's bad writing again. I'm sorry you are assuming U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs. Also, Zamasu taking a shot head on to prove/indulge in his invincibility/immortality does not change the narration of how he died from those attacks from Goku and Trunks and only survived due to regeneration. Stated by Goku, Vegeta and Bulma.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:53 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:22 pm
ruler9871 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:16 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:16 am
Goku in Episode 61 blew off Zamas head, Vegeta remarks that he is invincible and even Bulma stated that he went right back to normal after taking that attack. In episode 63 Goku's two hitter puts Zamas into the ground and Zamas regenerates. Goku then states "He really is immortal." Meaning that those attacks actually would of killed him if he wasn't immortal. Even SSJ Trunks killed Zamas TWICE in their bout but thanks to his immortality he can't die. The fact that those attacks would of destroyed him proves he isn't Blue level. It's only because of Zamas immortality that he survived the fighting.
1. Zamasu took that head shot on purpose and he smiled as Goku charged at him, because (as Trunks explained) F.Zamasu likes to drop his guard on purpose and indulge in his immortality. So that doesn't prove a thing.

Even U6 arc SSB Goku could one-shot RoF Golden Freeza, so does that mean RoF Golden Freeza isn't SSB level? Being weaker than one SSB level character doesn't mean you aren't SSB level. Transformations are not tiers and SSB-level is board range of power.

2. Ep.63 SSB Goku >>> Start of Black arc SSB Goku. Your argument is based on the fallacy that SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks had the exact same level of strength throughout the whole Black arc, which is explicitly false by both feats & statements. And even if did stay the same throughout the arc, it still wouldn't prove that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level.
The fact that Zamasu was still able to put up some type of fight with Blue Goku before and after his strength boost just proves TOEI's bad writing again. I'm sorry you are assuming U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs. Also, Zamasu taking a shot head on to prove/indulge in his invincibility/immortality does not change the narration of how he died from those attacks from Goku and Trunks and only survived due to regeneration. Stated by Goku, Vegeta and Bulma.
This is circular reasoning. You assume from the start without proof that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level in the anime to argue that him fighting SSB Goku on par is bad writing/inconsistent.

And when did Future Zamasu ever "die"? You are making stuff up. How can he die if he's immortal?

"U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs"

The point was that "SSB level" isn't a fixed, narrow tier of strength, and that U6 arc Goku & RoF Freeza aren't equals just because their in the same class of power.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:12 pm

I think you guys mix up the anime and the manga, which are vastly different.

Future Zamasu in the manga was confirmed to be weaker than Ssj2 Trunks, but that doesn't mean that in the anime it's the same. F. Zamasu is clearly low SsjB tier, ep. 57 shows it.

That's the same with SsjB Vegito. In the manga, Shin says he could be stronger than Beerus. In the anime this doesn't happen, and Vegito is still weaker than the Hakaishin.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:15 pm

Zamasu55 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:12 pm I think you guys mix up the anime and the manga, which are vastly different.

Future Zamasu in the manga was confirmed to be weaker than Ssj2 Trunks, but that doesn't mean that in the anime it's the same. F. Zamasu is clearly low SsjB tier, ep. 57 shows it.

That's the same with SsjB Vegito. In the manga, Shin says he could be stronger than Beerus. In the anime this doesn't happen, and Vegito is still weaker than the Hakaishin.
There's also the fact that the SSB transformation itself in the manga is weaker than in the anime.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:34 pm

Zamasu55 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:12 pm I think you guys mix up the anime and the manga, which are vastly different.

Future Zamasu in the manga was confirmed to be weaker than Ssj2 Trunks, but that doesn't mean that in the anime it's the same. F. Zamasu is clearly low SsjB tier, ep. 57 shows it.

That's the same with SsjB Vegito. In the manga, Shin says he could be stronger than Beerus. In the anime this doesn't happen, and Vegito is still weaker than the Hakaishin.
Just because he traded blows with SSB Goku doesn't make him Blue tier.

After that brief fight he gets overpowered by SS2 Trunks many times.

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