Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Amir
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:41 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:04 pm
PFM18 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:26 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:43 pm
1. Base Black was stated to have become much stronger at that point than he was when he fought SSJ2 Goku. Not an inconsistency.
It's still not consistent with Vegeta being able to catch SSJ Rose Black's punch in the same episode. If Base Black>SSB Vegeta were true, then he should have been instantly disintegrated by SSJ Rose, but he even put up a fight.
I never said Base Black > SSB Vegeta (Base Black likely became just strong enough to tank early SSB-level attacks without much damage.) And SSJ Rose Black did causally stomp SSB Vegeta in their 1st fight.
Did he though? I think he was only a little stronger and won so fast because he stabbed him surprisingly. In episode 57 he wasn't that impressive against Goku, he was just a tiny bit stronger.

Also, If Base Black became so strong to casually take a pummeling from SSJB Vegeta (even if suppressed) and even land hits on him, then SSJ Rose should have been way above Blue level. Like SSJ Broly compared to SSJB Goku difference in power.

Here is my take on it.
The reason Base Black was so unfazed by SSJB was because he wasn't in full power. It's always like that in this series. They never take much damage before unleashing full power. Sure they stretched it quite a bit here but Black's smirk and Vegeta's shock heavily hinted "I'm holding back my final form" thing. It was a narrative reason. Because it was made clear later that Base Black is no match for SSJB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:46 pm

Bullza wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:07 am
I can't answer the second question but this one is probably a yes. In the manga there was a similar scene where Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Trunks were fighting evenly and then Goku went Super Saiyan 3 and in response Trunks took out his sword and powered up big time.

That pretty much happened in the anime though the comparison to Super Saiyan 3 was different. So just based on that scene I'd have said yes.

That said Super Saiyan 2 Goku did far better against Goku Black than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks did though Goku Black was meant to be holding back but then I don't think it was meant to be by a lot anyway but yeah I'd say Trunks was stronger especially by the time he returned to the future as well.
I don't think Trunks was at 100% when he fought Black in E48 but yeah, Black held back on both fights.

I guess I will put Trunks higher than Goku and Vegeta on my list. Thanks for the input.
Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:45 am
About Black, I can't agree with Rose being just SSj. The aura was nothing like it, it was actually identical to Blue's, only colored pink. To me it was his SSGSS, which fits into the story.
Well, Vegeta said it was his Super Saiyan form.

My explanation is that since Black has a god's soul then he already is a Saiyan with the power of god so turning Super Saiyan results in Rose. Maybe that's why his base is that strong. He can access his SSG power without transforming.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:54 pm

Zamasu letting his guard down after getting hit is pretty clear to me: he fights, tries to land blows, dodge and all that stuff you do in a fight but when he does get hit, he just lets go and lets himself wide open, doesn't fight back, takes all the pounding there is AND THEN gloat on his immortality.

Otherwise he'd just fight with his hands inside his pockets. Which would also be out of character because he hates mortals and wants to crush them, exterminate them, not just make them feel bad because they can't hurt him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:07 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:16 pm
You mean it doesn't satisfy your headcanon about the amount of boost you want it to be.
You keep dodging the issue because you know I'm right.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:16 pm
Then how did Trunks dodge block and pierce Zamas then? overpower him? lololol I can't wait for more of your headcanon. Anime and manga BOTH have Trunks beat Zamas, that is a fact. No one said anime and manga were the same. Future Zamas can not be blue level when he gets overpowered by SSJ Trunks. And I didn't say or assume that Black was just as strong as he was in his debut. That again is you misreading things just to fit your narrative. Base Black had no business laughing off SSB Vegeta's punches, lol. Bad writing.
1. You are still lying about Trunks ever beating F.Zamasu.

2. You are still assuming that Base Black = SSJ2 level for the entire arc. You are also forgetting that anime SSJ Rose in his 1st appearance was already considered the strongest unfused character under beerus (meaning that he already stronger than KKx20 Goku & Hit from the U6 arc), so him tanking attacks from SSB Vegeta in just base isn't a stretch.

It's like you can't understand basic logic smh.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:16 pm
The proof is Zamas got beat up by SSJ Trunks in the anime so he is weaker than SSJ2. lol
Wrong, Being Blue level then does not mean you are Blue level now. It's called plot strength escalation. it does not allow what you are proposing. The video you posted does not disprove Trunks statement and Zamas acting out that claim about Zamas dropping his guard AFTER he gets hit. You posted one instance where he lets himself get hit. Doesn't prove he did that EVERY TIME like you claim. Again all it proves is what I've been saying all along...TOEI'S bad writing/inconsistency.
1. For the last time. F.Zamasu didn't get beat up by SSJ Trunks at all.

2. "Wrong, Being Blue level then does not mean you are Blue level now. It's called plot strength escalation"

That is some retarded nonsense you just made up. That's like claiming Buu Saga Piccolo isn't SSJ1 level because he's weaker than the SSJ1's of the Buu arc (even though he surpassed the Grade 1 SSJs from before), its stupid. Power levels don't reset after every saga.

3. The video clearly shows F.Zamasu taking a blast in the face from SSB Goku on purpose with a smile. You are just being delusional if you think it doesn't refute your arguments.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:20 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:36 pm
Literally nothing implies that Future and Present Zamasu are any different. Goku's statement isn't an indicator. He didn't know what was different about Future Zamasu. If that difference was power then it would've been stated. It's clearly just hinting at his immortality which was revealed later on.

The scaling in the series is Goku Black>Goku/Vegeta>Trunks>Zamasu. It is the same in both mediums.
1. Literally everything in the anime shows that they are different in power, you are just being in denial. And Goku can clearly sense F.Zamasu's strength (whenever someone in DB says "there's something different about this fighter" then they're clearly saying that he got stronger). Assuming he's refering to his immortality is pure nonsense since you can't "sense" immortality and blocking a punch wouldn't says anything about that either.

Immortality doesn't magically give you more offense & the ability to parry & dodge attacks from others way above you. If F.Zamasu was only SSJ2 level then SSB Goku would have just flicked him around effortlessly in their 1st fight (which didn't happen).

2. Goku/Vegeta, Black & Trunks all surpass each other at various points of the anime, its never static like you imply. Rage Trunks for example was obviously stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta from when he 1st gets the form to when they came back to the future for the 3rd time (when they had also surpassed Black until he pulls out the scythe). Trunks would later surpass them all again in the end with the Hope Sword.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:40 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:45 am
About Black, I can't agree with Rose being just SSj. The aura was nothing like it, it was actually identical to Blue's, only colored pink. To me it was his SSGSS, which fits into the story.
Well, Vegeta said it was his Super Saiyan form.

My explanation is that since Black has a god's soul then he already is a Saiyan with the power of god so turning Super Saiyan results in Rose. Maybe that's why his base is that strong. He can access his SSG power without transforming.
That's a fair point. The way Base Black power seemed massive, it would stand to reason that he had the "Saiyan Beyond God" state that never became a thing, kinda lika a homage. Even his base aura was weird and stuff.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:49 pm

Bullza wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:57 am

1. It happened, don't blame me, blame the show. You also miss the point of what I mean when I bring up the Black Hole scene anyway. Just because character A forces character B into a particular form doesn't mean they are as strong. All that means is that they are stronger than the earlier forms.

2. No again that's your assumption. There was nothing to suggest that Zamasu was dicking around when he got overpowered by Trunks, that's merely your excuse to explain away why Zamasu was so weak. You're applying this idea of letting his guard down and enjoying getting hit to everything even though that's not the case.

He was just overpowered because he's weaker than Trunks like they made clear in the manga. It's no more complicated than that.

3. Likewise at the same time there's no comment of Android 17 holding back his power against Ribrianne nor would there be any reason to. But no I'm not downplaying Android 17, again you're not really getting the point here.

4. Sorry but the opposite of what say was already shown, Trunks ran Zamasu through the chest with his sword. Had he not been immortal he would have died right there. You can assume the Final Flash wouldn't have killed him I suppose but even then Goku who had just fought Zamasu wondered himself if Trunks had actually killed him which wouldn't really make much sense if Zamasu was leagues above Trunks.

5. Except the key word that was mentioned was "after". It is after he gets hit that he revels in his immortality. What you're doing is assuming that he's letting himself get pummelled so he can revel in it which is wrong. The Zamasu who was overpowered by Trunks wasn't losing on purpose, he was losing because he was weaker.

6. No that's another assumption. If he were stronger than he'd just say he was stronger like they do with everyone else. Goku can sense energy he would he known straight off before they even began fighting that he would be stronger. He said there was something "different", not that he was stronger.

7. Pure bullshit and yet you've still after several posts done nothing to prove this wrong. The only thing you've done is provide "proof" by showing me Zamasu hit Goku one time which was one of the four that I already acknowledged. You keep complaining about this while doing nothing to prove me otherwise and you haven't because you're unable to find these other hits.

There's no double standard. We know what Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' level is from his fights with Base Goku Black, Super Saiyan 2/3 Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. We know for sure how strong Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is because he overpowered everyone, at one point at the same time. Trunks kicking Goku Black into a building we know is a one off, the same thing happened in the manga.

Likewise because we know how strong Trunks is, that he was shown to overpower Zamasu and even hold his own when he was drained at another point and that Zamasu only ever hit a Super Saiyan Blue level character one time properly throughout the entire arc and that the manga also said he was weaker than Trunks makes it pretty clear too.

Goku Black is stronger than Goku and Vegeta and then way down from that you have Trunks who is stronger than Zamasu.

If you think Zamasu is Blue level because he hit Goku one time then you have to say that Trunks is Rose level for hitting Goku Black one time.
1. A17 tanking hits from Full Power Jiren, outperforming SSB Goku/Vegeta, U.Gohan & G.Freeza and matching Base Toppo in a beam struggle also happened. Don't blame me, blame the show (2 can play it that game).

"Just because character A forces character B into a particular form doesn't mean they are as strong. All that means is that they are stronger than the earlier forms."

Then by your own logic, A17 would still be stronger than SSG and way above SSJ1 Goku & Ribrianne. You lose either way.

2. Anime =/= Manga, and its clearly obvious that Zamasu was dicking around with Trunks considering lightly he's taking the fight. You still gave no source about F.Zamasu being weak in the anime.

3. There's no evidence nor any implication that he was going all out against Ribrianne. That's the point (which you keep denying).

4. "Trunks ran Zamasu through the chest with his sword. Had he not been immortal he would have died right there"

Baseless assumption, never stated.

"You can assume the Final Flash wouldn't have killed him I suppose but even then Goku who had just fought Zamasu wondered himself if Trunks had actually killed him which wouldn't really make much sense if Zamasu was leagues above Trunks"

Characters made the same assumption about Vegeta's FF against Perfect Cell, so that argument doesn't prove a thing.

5. If he's weaker than SSJ2 Trunks (which he clearly isn't) than why was he owning SSB Goku earlier? You can't pick n choose events out of bias.

6. DB Characters frequently use different expressions to say someone his stronger, like Tien saying that SSJ1 Goku is "dimensions apart" from him. Besides, the context of the scene makes it clear that Goku was referring to F.Zamasu's power (immortality doesn't magically give you the ability to parry/block attacks from foes way above you), only delusional downplayers would deny it.

7. That's a whole bunch of nonsense.

And no, F.Zamasu didn't just hit SSB Goku one time. They had a full-on battle trading blows and even had SSB Goku running from him. This to any non-biased observer shows that F.Zamasu is on SSB-level.

"If you think Zamasu is Blue level because he hit Goku one time then you have to say that Trunks is Rose level for hitting Goku Black one time."

Which is exactly my point. You can't use SSJ2 Trunks vs F.Zamasu to downplay the latter by that same logic.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:49 pm

17 never tanked a hit from Jiren. That's an outright lie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:48 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:07 pm
You keep dodging the issue because you know I'm right.
Only the story is right. You are wrong.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:16 pm
Then how did Trunks dodge block and pierce Zamas then? overpower him? lololol I can't wait for more of your headcanon. Anime and manga BOTH have Trunks beat Zamas, that is a fact. No one said anime and manga were the same. Future Zamas can not be blue level when he gets overpowered by SSJ Trunks. And I didn't say or assume that Black was just as strong as he was in his debut. That again is you misreading things just to fit your narrative. Base Black had no business laughing off SSB Vegeta's punches, lol. Bad writing.
1. You are still lying about Trunks ever beating F.Zamasu.

2. You are still assuming that Base Black = SSJ2 level for the entire arc. You are also forgetting that anime SSJ Rose in his 1st appearance was already considered the strongest unfused character under beerus (meaning that he already stronger than KKx20 Goku & Hit from the U6 arc), so him tanking attacks from SSB Vegeta in just base isn't a stretch.

It's like you can't understand basic logic smh.
You are using headcanon. Nothing you say is fact. Try again.
1. For the last time. F.Zamasu didn't get beat up by SSJ Trunks at all.

2. "Wrong, Being Blue level then does not mean you are Blue level now. It's called plot strength escalation"

That is some retarded nonsense you just made up. That's like claiming Buu Saga Piccolo isn't SSJ1 level because he's weaker than the SSJ1's of the Buu arc (even though he surpassed the Grade 1 SSJs from before), its stupid. Power levels don't reset after every saga.

3. The video clearly shows F.Zamasu taking a blast in the face from SSB Goku on purpose with a smile. You are just being delusional if you think it doesn't refute your arguments.
Zamas taking a blast one time does not refute the story fact that he does not let himself be hit on purpose all the time. You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle.

Good luck.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:35 am

Trunks straight up delivered a fatal blow on Zamasu during their fight. Zamasu did nothing of the sort to anyone, not the Blue tiers and not to Trunks. He's weaker than Trunks in his normal Super Saiyan forms. Zamasu is weaker than Trunks just like in the manga. Don't really know how anyone could say that Zamasu is Blue level if he would've been killed by Super Saiyan Trunks if it weren't for his immortality.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:13 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:49 pm
*Post*
1. Well you can't play that game because you're missing the point in the first place. What you're arguing is separate from my point altogether, you think you're "winning" something that I'm not even taking part in but no Android 17 never matched Toppo, being almost forced from the arena after several seconds of a struggle and being saved by Frieza isn't matching.

2. No there was nothing obvious about that.

Image

There was no dicking about here, this was just him being completely overpowered and unable to hit a Super Saiyan 2 level character.

3. Nor was there any evidence that he was holding back nor was there any evidence that Goku was going all out against Zamasu.

4. Since when does a character get stabbed through the abdomen by a sword and then continue to survive? He can't regenerate, he's not Buu. Even if he somehow survived, that fight would still have been over with.

Also the Final Flash wasn't the same at all. At least in the manga, because I can't be bothered to find it on Youtube, neither Trunks or Krillin wondered if Cell was dead. Vegeta himself didn't think that Cell was dead, he thought the fight was over because he wasn't aware of the regeneration but that's it. Goku however did wonder if Trunks had beaten Zamasu. He'd just fought Zamasu so if he were Blue level then why is wondering if a Super Saiyan 2 level character beat him?

5. Landing one attack isn't owning, it's landing one attack. Which is pretty depressing to be honest. Goku Black owned Goku. Zamasu just knocked him down towards the street uninjured.

6. Saying they are dimensions apart is clearly about power just like saying they are leagues or levels apart, that's as obvious as can be. Saying he's different could be a number of things especially because there was at least one notable difference in the immortality. Using that to strictly assume it was about his power is just that...an assumption.

7. You still aren't finding any other examples even now? No they exchanged blows but Zamasu only ever actually landed an attack on him the one time. Feel free to slow the video down if you want.

Either way I know it's right because instead of you quickly finding an example from one of the several other fights that he was involved in and saying "look here at 1:52 or 2:36 or 3:16" etc....you haven't. You haven't found anything, you just showed me the one video I already mentioned. Maybe you did check and just didn't find anything.

That you can't even find a fifth occasion where Zamasu hit's anybody fairly throughout three different prolonged battles is kinda sad for that character.

I'm even propping him up because of those four "fair" hits, one of them was when Vegeta was chasing after Goku Black and he got sucker kicked and another was when Goku was looking elsewhere concerned and Zamasu hit's him from behind. So if you were just talking about head on then he hits Goku and Trunks once each and the latter was tired anyway. So that is why you keep going on about that one clip and nothing else.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:31 am

I know that this a bit random but I'm curious to hear what the opinion is regarding it: Does the avoidance of Magetta's vertical attack by the humans and Piccolo in the manga mean anything with respect to their power or is it just fluff for the tournament?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:08 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:31 am
Does the avoidance of Magetta's vertical attack by the humans and Piccolo in the manga mean anything with respect to their power or is it just fluff for the tournament?
Since that attack hurt SS Vegeta, probably it could hurt them as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:29 pm

Where do people place Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta compared to the three different times Goku used Ultra Instinct Omen?

He wouldn't be as strong as the final Ultra Instinct Omen that began to overpower Jiren obviously but was he superior to the second time it was used against Kefla?

He beat God of Destruction Toppo but is he himself stronger than Kefla?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:35 pm

Bullza wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:29 pm
Where do people place Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta compared to the three different times Goku used Ultra Instinct Omen?

He wouldn't be as strong as the final Ultra Instinct Omen that began to overpower Jiren obviously but was he superior to the second time it was used against Kefla?

He beat God of Destruction Toppo but is he himself stronger than Kefla?
I personally don't think so, but that's because I don't think he permanently retained the strength he used to defeat Toppo.

For me, SSBE's normal strength is still the same as SSB/KKx20, it's just that Vegeta pushed it further temporarily to defeat Toppo. After that, his power dropped to a stable level, at least in my own opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:49 pm

Bullza wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:29 pm
Where do people place Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta compared to the three different times Goku used Ultra Instinct Omen?

He wouldn't be as strong as the final Ultra Instinct Omen that began to overpower Jiren obviously but was he superior to the second time it was used against Kefla?

He beat God of Destruction Toppo but is he himself stronger than Kefla?
Normal SSBE Vegeta is on par with KKx20 Blue Goku so he's not touching any Omen Goku, Kefla or GoD Toppo.

Enraged SSBE Vegeta is stronger than all of them with the exception of the third Omen Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:16 am

Bullza wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:29 pm
Where do people place Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta compared to the three different times Goku used Ultra Instinct Omen?

He wouldn't be as strong as the final Ultra Instinct Omen that began to overpower Jiren obviously but was he superior to the second time it was used against Kefla?

He beat God of Destruction Toppo but is he himself stronger than Kefla?
I use to be of the opinion that "Super Saiyan Royal Blue"(like that name) even at his best, was inferior to SSJ2 Kefla by a considerable margin. Nowadays, after looking into things, I think Royal Blue Vegeta surpasses SSJ2 Kefla and 2nd UI Omen significantly, before even getting his power-boost. There's really no way to get everything to line up numbers wise without acknowledging enormous power boosts from Goku nad Vegeta. There isn't an enormous body of evidence, but it is definitely there, and it is explicit enough that I think you can form a fairly coherent scale around it.

Off of the top of my head, I think I would put it:

3rd UI Omen>>SSBE Vegeta final>GoD Toppo>SSBE Vegeta initial=123 KKx20 Goku>>SSJ2 Kefla~2nd UI Omen>>Genki-Dama>>109 SSBKKx20 Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:47 am

Bullza wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:29 pm
Where do people place Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta compared to the three different times Goku used Ultra Instinct Omen?

He wouldn't be as strong as the final Ultra Instinct Omen that began to overpower Jiren obviously but was he superior to the second time it was used against Kefla?

He beat God of Destruction Toppo but is he himself stronger than Kefla?
If I were to assign numbers to these characters, and some others relevant to the discussion, this is probably how I would do it:

MUI Goku (Enraged) - 1,250
Jiren (Enraged) - 1,210
MUI Goku (Initial) - 1,200
Jiren (Super Full Power) - 1,100
UI Goku (3rd Omen) - 1,000
Beerus - 1,000
Jiren (Full Power) - 990
===
Huge Gap
===
Jiren (Vs. Goku & Vegeta) - 110
Goku (Post 2nd Omen) - 100
Vegeta (SSB Evolution) - 95
Toppo (God of Destruction) - 80
UI Goku (2nd Omen) - 75
SS2 Kefla - 60
Jiren (Vs. Goku) - 55
UI Goku (First Omen) - 50
SS Kefla - 30
SSB Goku (Spirit Bomb) - 30
SSB Goku (Kaio-Ken x20) - 20
SSB Goku - 1

What do you guys think?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:50 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:47 am
UI Goku (2nd Omen) - 75
SS2 Kefla - 60
I disagree with this. They should be even, Goku only won because he had the advantage of improved reactions from Ultra Instinct. Kefla didn't actually get damaged too much by Goku's punches, and it was stated that had Kefa's Final Weapon connected, it could have killed Goku.
Jiren (Super Full Power) - 1,100
UI Goku (3rd Omen) - 1,000
Beerus - 1,000
Jiren (Full Power) - 990
What does full-power mean compared to "Super full power" exactly? And why is 3rd Omen=Beerus? Going by that one Jump magazine?
DBZ Macky wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:47 am
Goku (Post 2nd Omen) - 100
Vegeta (SSB Evolution) - 95
Why do you have this exactly? Why would Goku>Vegeta be true, and for that matter why would Goku be so much stronger than GoD Toppo, if at all stronger than GoD Toppo?

I think that these numbers generally look good, but once you add some things from the previous arc, it becomes a problem.

Let's assume, for argumentation's sake, that between the FT and ToP arcs, Goku got 25% stronger. (Very generous, but bare with me), then it follows that:

FT arc SSB Goku: 0.8
and since we saw both from the DBS manga, and the Broly movie, then SSB fusee~Base fusion. Therefore, the SSB of a fusion, should be a SSB multiplier amount stronger than the corresponding fusees. Conservatively, let's assume that the multipliers for SSG and SSB are 2x and 50x respectively, and go by the normal multipliers for SSJ1-SSJ3, then SSB is a 40,000x multiplier. Then, it follows that:

FT arc SSB Vegetto: 32,000

...and that's an issue. That would make Vegetto 25.6x stronger than max power UI Goku, and that certainly doesn't seem to be implied by the narrative. I think, the solution, is to inflate the numbers so that this fits with the previous arc. Like, instead of having Jiren vs Goku and Vegeta at 123 at 110, have him at 5,000-15,000 or something.

ruler9871
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:49 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:35 am
Trunks straight up delivered a fatal blow on Zamasu during their fight. Zamasu did nothing of the sort to anyone, not the Blue tiers and not to Trunks. He's weaker than Trunks in his normal Super Saiyan forms. Zamasu is weaker than Trunks just like in the manga. Don't really know how anyone could say that Zamasu is Blue level if he would've been killed by Super Saiyan Trunks if it weren't for his immortality.
Then how do you explain F.Zamasu casually blocking and trading blows with SSB Goku on more than one occasion (a fact/feat you and others keep denying?). How do you also explain him being able to hurt an on guard/pissed SSB Goku/Vegeta and Rage Trunks more than once?

anime =/= manga
Last edited by ruler9871 on Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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