Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:33 am
Given the way the conversation went, it seems Zamas and Vegetto would be about equal if Vegetto didn’t eat the senzu bean.
:think:

That would make base Vegetto way stronger than incomplete Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:35 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:33 am
Given the way the conversation went, it seems Zamas and Vegetto would be about equal if Vegetto didn’t eat the senzu bean.
:think:

That would make base Vegetto way stronger than incomplete Blue.
Not only that. He would be about equal to completed Blue as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:02 am

Which would be stupid, but, not inaccurate to what DBS: Broly showed us.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:13 pm

Thani wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:02 am
Which would be stupid, but, not inaccurate to what DBS: Broly showed us.
Or you could say that at least there is a consistency in how strong fusions get in manga, anime and movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 pm

More or less. It is definitely consistent now, but in BoG the SSG transformation was deemed superior to fusion.

I honestly don't mind to fusion being really powerful, but equal to superior to Blue in just Base seems... excessive, I guess, to me. But it really doesn't matter.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:29 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:01 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:43 pm
I never understood why the anime had Goku and Vegeta eat the senzu before fusing (wasting one senzu) and the manga had the senzu be eaten after the fusing
IIRC in the anime they ate half senzu each.
No they had two Senzu left and they both ate one.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:23 am

Thani wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 pm
More or less. It is definitely consistent now, but in BoG the SSG transformation was deemed superior to fusion.

I honestly don't mind to fusion being really powerful, but equal to superior to Blue in just Base seems... excessive, I guess, to me. But it really doesn't matter.
To be fair, Fusions only became this strong once Goku and Vegeta themselves got this strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:59 pm

SSGod was superior to fusions back then, because Goku and Vegeta weren’t strong enough. They have evolved so much that even in normal form they can match Blue right now. If they happen to become even stronger than their current level their merged normal form should probably surpass Blue as well. Fusions have such a strange factor that it can’t be put in a simple 50-fold like Super Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:59 pm
SSGod was superior to fusions back then, because Goku and Vegeta weren’t strong enough. They have evolved so much that even in normal form they can match Blue right now. If they happen to become even stronger than their current level their merged normal form should probably surpass Blue as well. Fusions have such a strange factor that it can’t be put in a simple 50-fold like Super Saiyan.
Are you suggesting that Fusions have a different multiplier for their forms? Because I can go with that. I actually had such a concept in mind prior to DBS Broly with the Z calculations.

I kinda ccept it now as Base Fusion being stronger than the most powerful form of both individuals. In Z it was SSJ3 and then the SSJ4 statement popped up and in Super it is Blue.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm
Are you suggesting that Fusions have a different multiplier for their forms?

I kinda ccept it now as Base Fusion being stronger than the most powerful form of both individuals. In Z it was SSJ3 and then the SSJ4 statement popped up and in Super it is Blue.
I’m saying that fusions don’t have a static multiplier. It will depend on how strong the base is. It could be lower, equal or greater than their strongest form. In this case, I think Base Gogeta/Vegetto match Blue, but they are still weaker than Blue powered-up by kaioken, Blue powered-up by Vegeta’s will, and Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:23 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm
Are you suggesting that Fusions have a different multiplier for their forms?

I kinda ccept it now as Base Fusion being stronger than the most powerful form of both individuals. In Z it was SSJ3 and then the SSJ4 statement popped up and in Super it is Blue.
I’m saying that fusions don’t have a static multiplier. It will depend on how strong the base is. It could be lower, equal or greater than their strongest form. In this case, I think Base Gogeta/Vegetto match Blue, but they are still weaker than Blue powered-up by kaioken, Blue powered-up by Vegeta’s will, and Ultra Instinct.
I think they surpass Blue since Vegetto in Z surpassed SS3 in base.

Broly is also getting stronger as he fights according to preview info so he should be stronger after wrecking Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:19 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I think they surpass Blue since Vegetto in Z surpassed SS3 in base.
I don’t know if Base Vegetto was stronger than SS3, but anyway that instance doesn’t necessarily influence this one. Back then, their powerlevel could have been high enough that a fusion would result in something that rivals SS3.

Now, Broli and Gogeta have similar powers in SS, so their base is probably similar too. Broli didn’t have the stimulus to get stronger after fighting Freeza, because he was already stronger than him. Gogeta though pushed his limit ahead.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:15 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:19 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I think they surpass Blue since Vegetto in Z surpassed SS3 in base.
I don’t know if Base Vegetto was stronger than SS3, but anyway that instance doesn’t necessarily influence this one. Back then, their powerlevel could have been high enough that a fusion would result in something that rivals SS3.

Now, Broli and Gogeta have similar powers in SS, so their base is probably similar too. Broli didn’t have the stimulus to get stronger after fighting Freeza, because he was already stronger than him. Gogeta though pushed his limit ahead.
Daizenshuu confirms base Vegetto > SS3 Goku AFAIR.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:13 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:15 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:19 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I think they surpass Blue since Vegetto in Z surpassed SS3 in base.
I don’t know if Base Vegetto was stronger than SS3, but anyway that instance doesn’t necessarily influence this one. Back then, their powerlevel could have been high enough that a fusion would result in something that rivals SS3.

Now, Broli and Gogeta have similar powers in SS, so their base is probably similar too. Broli didn’t have the stimulus to get stronger after fighting Freeza, because he was already stronger than him. Gogeta though pushed his limit ahead.
Daizenshuu confirms base Vegetto > SS3 Goku AFAIR.
Daizenshuu aside, wasn't it clear that SS3 Goku was nowhere near Base Vegito or anything from the Fusion saga for that matter? he couldn't go higher than Kid Buu+Fat Buu tier (stronger theoretically but in practice he was pretty much like Kid Buu), he stated they would need Vegito to take on Super Buu (his SS3 was weaker than Gotenks's), also had a bad experience fighting Buutenks. I mean, how could SS3 Goku do as much damage to Buuhan as Base Vegito?

Maybe there could be a case in favour of SS3 Gotenks> Base Vegito, but no way with SS3 Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:13 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:15 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:19 pm

I don’t know if Base Vegetto was stronger than SS3, but anyway that instance doesn’t necessarily influence this one. Back then, their powerlevel could have been high enough that a fusion would result in something that rivals SS3.

Now, Broli and Gogeta have similar powers in SS, so their base is probably similar too. Broli didn’t have the stimulus to get stronger after fighting Freeza, because he was already stronger than him. Gogeta though pushed his limit ahead.
Daizenshuu confirms base Vegetto > SS3 Goku AFAIR.
Daizenshuu aside, wasn't it clear that SS3 Goku was nowhere near Base Vegito or anything from the Fusion saga for that matter? he couldn't go higher than Kid Buu+Fat Buu tier (stronger theoretically but in practice he was pretty much like Kid Buu), he stated they would need Vegito to take on Super Buu (his SS3 was weaker than Gotenks's), also had a bad experience fighting Buutenks. I mean, how could SS3 Goku do as much damage to Buuhan as Base Vegito?

Maybe there could be a case in favour of SS3 Gotenks> Base Vegito, but no way with SS3 Goku.
He didn’t fight Super Buu absorbed Gotenks in the manga. Buu de-powered before then. And if we used the anime, Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 was above Gotenks’ Super Saiyan 3. So you need to stick to the manga.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm

HeroR wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:13 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:15 pm

Daizenshuu confirms base Vegetto > SS3 Goku AFAIR.
Daizenshuu aside, wasn't it clear that SS3 Goku was nowhere near Base Vegito or anything from the Fusion saga for that matter? he couldn't go higher than Kid Buu+Fat Buu tier (stronger theoretically but in practice he was pretty much like Kid Buu), he stated they would need Vegito to take on Super Buu (his SS3 was weaker than Gotenks's), also had a bad experience fighting Buutenks. I mean, how could SS3 Goku do as much damage to Buuhan as Base Vegito?

Maybe there could be a case in favour of SS3 Gotenks> Base Vegito, but no way with SS3 Goku.
He didn’t fight Super Buu absorbed Gotenks in the manga. Buu de-powered before then. And if we used the anime, Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 was above Gotenks’ Super Saiyan 3. So you need to stick to the manga.
If we stick to the manga there is no Base Vegito to begin with so there is no point going there.
About the anime, how did you get to that conclusion? when did SS3 Goku demonstrate to be above SS3 Gotenks? I'm assuming you don't buy that Kid Buu>> every Buu non-sense

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:26 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:15 pm
Daizenshuu confirms base Vegetto > SS3 Goku AFAIR.
Not exactly. It doesn’t specify in which form he is stronger than SS3. It’s likely talking about Super Vegetto, since all the other characteristics are noted when he is fighting Boo in that form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:51 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:13 pm


Daizenshuu aside, wasn't it clear that SS3 Goku was nowhere near Base Vegito or anything from the Fusion saga for that matter? he couldn't go higher than Kid Buu+Fat Buu tier (stronger theoretically but in practice he was pretty much like Kid Buu), he stated they would need Vegito to take on Super Buu (his SS3 was weaker than Gotenks's), also had a bad experience fighting Buutenks. I mean, how could SS3 Goku do as much damage to Buuhan as Base Vegito?

Maybe there could be a case in favour of SS3 Gotenks> Base Vegito, but no way with SS3 Goku.
He didn’t fight Super Buu absorbed Gotenks in the manga. Buu de-powered before then. And if we used the anime, Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 was above Gotenks’ Super Saiyan 3. So you need to stick to the manga.
If we stick to the manga there is no Base Vegito to begin with so there is no point going there.
About the anime, how did you get to that conclusion? when did SS3 Goku demonstrate to be above SS3 Gotenks? I'm assuming you don't buy that Kid Buu>> every Buu non-sense
The anime outright called Buu the strongest form of Buu at least twice in the sub, or at least heavily hinted as such. That and sources outside of the anime actually called Super Saiyan 3 Goku even with Ultimate Gohan or at least on par.

As for how strong Kid Buu is, I will just say this. The only thing that we have about Goku vs Super Buu is that Goku himself said he stood no chance. The problem is, Goku was a freaking lair in the Buu Saga. He said he was only even with Vegeta and he could never beat Buu if Vegeta couldn't which is why he wanted to fused with him, only for him to asspull Super Saiyan 3 a couple chapters later. Than when Piccolo outright asked him if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said probably not since Buu was stronger, only for him to turn around and tell Vegeta that he could have, but didn't for the sake of the next generation. So I don't see why I should take Goku on his word on Super Buu when he claimed Fat Buu was too much for him when later said that wasn't the case.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:51 pm

HeroR wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:51 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm
HeroR wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 pm


He didn’t fight Super Buu absorbed Gotenks in the manga. Buu de-powered before then. And if we used the anime, Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 was above Gotenks’ Super Saiyan 3. So you need to stick to the manga.
If we stick to the manga there is no Base Vegito to begin with so there is no point going there.
About the anime, how did you get to that conclusion? when did SS3 Goku demonstrate to be above SS3 Gotenks? I'm assuming you don't buy that Kid Buu>> every Buu non-sense
The anime outright called Buu the strongest form of Buu at least twice in the sub, or at least heavily hinted as such. That and sources outside of the anime actually called Super Saiyan 3 Goku even with Ultimate Gohan or at least on par.

As for how strong Kid Buu is, I will just say this. The only thing that we have about Goku vs Super Buu is that Goku himself said he stood no chance. The problem is, Goku was a freaking lair in the Buu Saga. He said he was only even with Vegeta and he could never beat Buu if Vegeta couldn't which is why he wanted to fused with him, only for him to asspull Super Saiyan 3 a couple chapters later. Than when Piccolo outright asked him if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said probably not since Buu was stronger, only for him to turn around and tell Vegeta that he could have, but didn't for the sake of the next generation. So I don't see why I should take Goku on his word on Super Buu when he claimed Fat Buu was too much for him when later said that wasn't the case.
So you believe Ultimate Gohan is equal with SS3 Goku, ok. I don't.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:28 pm

Narration confirms Goku lied with reasons that he didn't want to use SSJ3 against Vegeta cause of the energy drain and he didn't want to beat fat Buu cause he wanted the next generation to be the savior's of earth since he was already dead. There is no plot point saying
Goku lied about Super Buu being out of his weight class like the other statements. Super Buu would waste Goku, that's a fact.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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