Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:04 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:29 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:12 pm
Guys, relax. You are being very nitpicky. Call the forms whatever you like. Of course the Wiki has invalid info. Did I present something from there? No.

Still, what makes you think that Broly went SSJ on top of Wrathful/Ikari? Makes no sense. He simply went a step further. No need to relate him that much with SSJ4 or Golden Great Ape. Wrathful itself is meant to represent that.

Also, it was made evident that Broly's Base was significantly above SSJ. Even Goku commented as much. Most certainly, he is a low SSJ3, if not equal. This also comes in defense to why Goku and Vegeta didn't use midway transformations and once their Super Saiyan was outmatched, they went God.
Because he literally went Super Saiyan while in his Ikari state? It's clear that he doesn't utilize the power of Super Saiyan in that form. Freeza killed his dad and made him rage out into a Super Saiyan stacked on top of his SSB-level Ikari form; he retains his size increase and wild hair, and he still has the green aura of his prior Ikari state.

We see later that Gogeta replicates feats that support it being a straight SS boost, since he dodges and deflects blasts from Ikari SS Broly just like SSB Goku did in his base form and is shown to be an equal in raw power when he himself turns Super Saiyan.

I don't get why it's so hard to accept that Ikari SS is just stacking SS on top of Ikari as if the latter is a base form. Technically speaking, Broly's still in his base form albeit heavily increased in strength, and it isn't something that supersedes SS like with Ultimate Gohan.
I don't see why Broly's SSJ would be stacked in its Ikari form. SSJ Broly has literally no visual traits of Ikari, no muscles, no pupils, and not the same kind of hair.

I think this reinforces that SSJ is just a multiplier of the base form and it didn't mix with the Ikari form.

This makes more sense when you see that Golden Freeza has stood SSJ Broly for over an hour without returning to its normal state. Even Goku SSB could counter Broly's completely enraged Ki Blasts. If Broly were something like 50x stronger than an SSB, he would have completely destroyed the quoted and that didn't happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:22 pm

Actually, Broly DOES retain the traits of his Ikari Base. He still has the increased size and muscle mass and has the same style of hair as his Ikari state just prior, as well as the green aura indicating the usage of Oozaru power.

The argument about SSB Goku and Vegeta not being instantly destroyed also falls flat on its face because the same could be said of Jiren. He's often been able to completely overwhelm Kaioken and Evolution, yet he also doesn't always instantly destroy regular SSB Goku and Vegeta despite them not getting leagues and leagues stronger through the Tournament of Power. Heck, base Goku vs. SS2 Caulifla is another example; a 100 times difference, but Goku's skill allows him to hang in until Caulifla adapts.

Ikari SS Broly here is in a similar boat. He's completely berserk and thus doesn't have a full grasp on battle tactics anymore compared to earlier. As well, Goku and Vegeta are skilled warriors who have fought stronger opponents before. Even then, their teamwork wasn't enough to make up for the difference in power. I think people keep expecting a huge numerical difference to always translate into a strict huge gap in combat difficulty; this generally isn't actually true anymore. A power difference DOES mean a disadvantage for the weaker character, but it's not always a straight "the bigger number means more easily stomped". See with how Goku does better in regular SSB against Jiren later on than he did with Kaioken in their first fight. He didn't instantly get over 20 times stronger, but he still did better.

As well, the onus is to prove that Ikari Super Saiyan ISN'T stacked on top of Ikari. What prevents Ikari from acting as a base form? It's a bigger leap to assume some unknown jump from Ikari to Super Saiyan rather than the simplicity of "Ikari --> Super Saiyan multiplying Ikari". As well, there's a precedent for current Fusions having SSB-level base forms, what with Vegito in the manga rivalling Incomplete SSB and base Kefla in the anime rivalling SSG. And with this in mind, it'd make more sense that Ikari SS is simply an Ikari Saiyan turning SS to match Fusion going SS. Gogeta himself is able to deflect Ikari SS Broly's blasts just like SSB Goku, and you don't need to prove that his SS form works like normal.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:57 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:22 pm
Actually, Broly DOES retain the traits of his Ikari Base. He still has the increased size and muscle mass and has the same style of hair as his Ikari state just prior, as well as the green aura indicating the usage of Oozaru power.

The argument about SSB Goku and Vegeta not being instantly destroyed also falls flat on its face because the same could be said of Jiren. He's often been able to completely overwhelm Kaioken and Evolution, yet he also doesn't always instantly destroy regular SSB Goku and Vegeta despite them not getting leagues and leagues stronger through the Tournament of Power. Heck, base Goku vs. SS2 Caulifla is another example; a 100 times difference, but Goku's skill allows him to hang in until Caulifla adapts.

Ikari SS Broly here is in a similar boat. He's completely berserk and thus doesn't have a full grasp on battle tactics anymore compared to earlier. As well, Goku and Vegeta are skilled warriors who have fought stronger opponents before. Even then, their teamwork wasn't enough to make up for the difference in power. I think people keep expecting a huge numerical difference to always translate into a strict huge gap in combat difficulty; this generally isn't actually true anymore. A power difference DOES mean a disadvantage for the weaker character, but it's not always a straight "the bigger number means more easily stomped". See with how Goku does better in regular SSB against Jiren later on than he did with Kaioken in their first fight. He didn't instantly get over 20 times stronger, but he still did better.

As well, the onus is to prove that Ikari Super Saiyan ISN'T stacked on top of Ikari. What prevents Ikari from acting as a base form? It's a bigger leap to assume some unknown jump from Ikari to Super Saiyan rather than the simplicity of "Ikari --> Super Saiyan multiplying Ikari". As well, there's a precedent for current Fusions having SSB-level base forms, what with Vegito in the manga rivalling Incomplete SSB and base Kefla in the anime rivalling SSG. And with this in mind, it'd make more sense that Ikari SS is simply an Ikari Saiyan turning SS to match Fusion going SS. Gogeta himself is able to deflect Ikari SS Broly's blasts just like SSB Goku, and you don't need to prove that his SS form works like normal.
In fact Broly does not maintain the characteristics of the Ikari form. Just look at this image of his conceptual arts


SSJ Broly's muscles are smaller than in the Ikari form, and exactly the same as his base form. His hair in Ikari is bigger, spiky and has a different shape. He has pupils, unlike his SSJ form. Looking at the design, there is nothing to indicate a combination of SSJ + Ikari. Descriptions of SSJ often say that this form is a multiplication of the user's base power, and looking at the image makes sense.

And indeed, a great difference in powers no longer means instant defeat. The point is that we are talking about Broly, who not only has not much experience of fighting humans, but was completely mad and unaware of his actions, and therefore would not hold back to attack anyone. During the time Jiren faced Goku and Vegeta, he never used his full power, which would be enough to defeat them quickly. The level of power he was using was something the two Saiyans could still handle (and both were constantly getting stronger during the tournament)

Not to mention that Freeza faced Broly in a direct melee, with no strategy like you said, and Broly couldn't even deactivate his Golden form. And Ikari is considering as a form / transformation (at least conceptually), uses the power of Oozaru, so I don't think SSJ would be stacked in that form

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:12 pm

Design sheets, yes, but in practice in the actual art and animation, Ikari SS Broly isn't really any different. Heck, some of the scenes in trailers were recoloured to regular Ikari Broly instead of the actual Ikari SS Broly that showed up in those scenes. He's very much still gigantic and wild-haired in his fight with Gogeta.

As well, Freeza is a freaking BEAST who's durable and tolerant of pain far in excess of his power level. He's also become a very good fighter after being revived, so it makes sense that he could survive that long. Broly being berserk doesn't really change the argument because fighters are very rarely shown completely stomping over weaker ones in general like their numerical power levels would indicate; the argument could easily be made that Broly can't fight properly and thus isn't able to focus on killing his opponents because he's so berserk. Heck, we even SEE THIS HAPPEN earlier when Goku fought Broly in his base and SS forms against Ikari Broly, yet he wasn't instantly destroyed and in fact fought pretty well all things considered before having to up the ante.

As for Ikari SS, I could throw that line of logic right back. Why WOULDN'T Oozaru stack properly with Super Saiyan? After all, it's an entirely different power source given the fact that it doesn't rely on S-Cells and didn't actually transform Broly properly; it served kinda like Ultimate, being a boost in his base form, except that it didn't supersede SS transformations. Ikari Broly isn't really a complete transformation, but more of his base form retaining and drawing power from the Saiyan's potential for Oozaru.

As well, Gogeta completely defines the discussion due to HIS base and SS forms functioning as normal except at a massively boosted level. They're shown as equal to Broly's own base and SS equivalents, seeing as how he starts out like the SSB-level characters and then goes toe-to-toe with Broly in his SS form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:46 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:12 pm
Design sheets, yes, but in practice in the actual art and animation, Ikari SS Broly isn't really any different. Heck, some of the scenes in trailers were recoloured to regular Ikari Broly instead of the actual Ikari SS Broly that showed up in those scenes. He's very much still gigantic and wild-haired in his fight with Gogeta.

As well, Freeza is a freaking BEAST who's durable and tolerant of pain far in excess of his power level. He's also become a very good fighter after being revived, so it makes sense that he could survive that long. Broly being berserk doesn't really change the argument because fighters are very rarely shown completely stomping over weaker ones in general like their numerical power levels would indicate; the argument could easily be made that Broly can't fight properly and thus isn't able to focus on killing his opponents because he's so berserk. Heck, we even SEE THIS HAPPEN earlier when Goku fought Broly in his base and SS forms against Ikari Broly, yet he wasn't instantly destroyed and in fact fought pretty well all things considered before having to up the ante.

As for Ikari SS, I could throw that line of logic right back. Why WOULDN'T Oozaru stack properly with Super Saiyan? After all, it's an entirely different power source given the fact that it doesn't rely on S-Cells and didn't actually transform Broly properly; it served kinda like Ultimate, being a boost in his base form, except that it didn't supersede SS transformations. Ikari Broly isn't really a complete transformation, but more of his base form retaining and drawing power from the Saiyan's potential for Oozaru.

As well, Gogeta completely defines the discussion due to HIS base and SS forms functioning as normal except at a massively boosted level. They're shown as equal to Broly's own base and SS equivalents, seeing as how he starts out like the SSB-level characters and then goes toe-to-toe with Broly in his SS form.
Several animators work in the movie, and the characters are represented in many different ways. The point is that, in Broly's concept of transformations, there are no similarities between his Ikari and SSJ form. If these two forms had any connection, they would at least share similar visual aspects. The movie also never implies that Broly stacked SSJ with Ikari.

Yes, Freeza is a very durable fighter, we saw how he resisted Toppo's Hakai even though he was much weaker (but remembering, Toppo himself said he didn't want to kill him). But this is very relative, it was one shoted by SSB Goku before ToP (a demonstration that the two were on the same level), regardless of how tough he is. Although Freeza is a smart fighter, he literally just attacked Broly randomly with no strategy whatsoever, I don't think he came out alive because he was a strategist, but because Broly just wasn't so superior to him. As I said, Freeza still retained its Golden form. Goku managed to keep up because of his fighting skills, but he was quickly overpowered and needed to transform

I am just relying on the fact that SSJ increases the base power of the user. So it's natural for that to happen to Broly, and the movie doesn't contradict that. And Broly was literally using the power of Oozaru in its base form, which caused a transformation in him.

And Gogeta base is not necessarily SSB level. He just deflected some of Broly's Ki Blasts, something SSB Goku did, but didn't confront him directly. And SSJ Gogeta was clearly superior to SSJ Broly, which is why Broly is forced to use SSJ Full Power

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:07 pm

See, I just fundamentally disagree with these assertions.

In terms of raw power, Gogeta and Broly were even; their clashes showcased no side dominating the other in terms of strength, with Gogeta only coming off as better because he was the better fighter with greater skill and his wits about him. We see this in how they equally keep up with each other when exchanging fists and chasing one another down, as well as them being able to send each other flying back with blows in a similar manner.

Only when Broly went Full-Power and Gogeta went SSB did a true power difference come in. Broly is no longer able to trade blows with Gogeta AT ALL, and HE'S the one sent flying from the clash of their fists that broke them out of the other dimension while Gogeta wasn't sent back at all.

As for Ikari Broly, again, I think we just fundamentally disagree on how it actually works. You view it as Broly's SS power being incompatible with his Oozaru power, whereas I see it as Super Saiyan mutating his Ikari form like a base form. You look at the design sheets, whereas I went back and checked the scenes as they actually appeared in the movie. I just think that trying to make Ikari SS into some strange boost that's indeterminable due to the strange notion of turning SS not actually giving you the boost of a Super Saiyan weird since it goes against the simplicity of "now Broly's a Super Saiyan withf Ikari, holy crap!" whereby he's as strong as a Super Saiyan would be compared to his Ikari form.

Agree to disagree, then? I have this sneaking suspicion that we just aren't seeing the value in each other's interpretations.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:39 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:07 pm
See, I just fundamentally disagree with these assertions.

In terms of raw power, Gogeta and Broly were even; their clashes showcased no side dominating the other in terms of strength, with Gogeta only coming off as better because he was the better fighter with greater skill and his wits about him. We see this in how they equally keep up with each other when exchanging fists and chasing one another down, as well as them being able to send each other flying back with blows in a similar manner.

Only when Broly went Full-Power and Gogeta went SSB did a true power difference come in. Broly is no longer able to trade blows with Gogeta AT ALL, and HE'S the one sent flying from the clash of their fists that broke them out of the other dimension while Gogeta wasn't sent back at all.

As for Ikari Broly, again, I think we just fundamentally disagree on how it actually works. You view it as Broly's SS power being incompatible with his Oozaru power, whereas I see it as Super Saiyan mutating his Ikari form like a base form. You look at the design sheets, whereas I went back and checked the scenes as they actually appeared in the movie. I just think that trying to make Ikari SS into some strange boost that's indeterminable due to the strange notion of turning SS not actually giving you the boost of a Super Saiyan weird since it goes against the simplicity of "now Broly's a Super Saiyan withf Ikari, holy crap!" whereby he's as strong as a Super Saiyan would be compared to his Ikari form.

Agree to disagree, then? I have this sneaking suspicion that we just aren't seeing the value in each other's interpretations.
Yeah, I think we really got into a stalemate. Anyway, I just find it strange that the idea of SSJ Broly is 50x more powerful than SSB, seems absurd and does not match what we actually saw in the movie, Broly never demonstrated this superiority. And in fact, apparently this is based almost entirely on the SSJ + Ikari argument, which was never really proven in the movie and, according to conceptual designs, it doesn't seem like it was imagined that way.

And I think that during the whole fight between SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly, Broly can only hit a single blow, while we see Gogeta constantly having the upper hand and forcing Broly to use a stronger form to overcome him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:03 pm

By the way, a little input: when Broly snaps out of his madness, still as SSj Full Power, green hair and all, he recovers his pupils. They were exactly the same yellow eyes of his Ikari form.

Image

Dunno if it proves anything, buuuuut

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:29 pm

I think the fact that Super Saiyan Broli has green aura in the movie should be enough to clear any doubt. He is obviously different from Goku and Vegeta when they use the form.

By the way, his base form is about as strong as Vegeta’s, so it couldn’t be just a regular Super Saiyan. He only starts to overpower Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base form after he draws power from his next form, just like Vegeta drew power from Super Saiyan to overpower Broli.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:31 pm

The main difference I see between Jiren and Broly is that Jiren hardly gave a damn, he had more of a passive role in the whole tournament until Omen showed up, whereas Broly was out of control and going after them non-stop, giving them no rest at all, went crazy like in M8. Jiren just stood there and worked from there, he actually let them regroup, get away, power up, ask about his wish, let them chat with Belmond, fake their deaths...

Also, we can't just wave off facts/feats at this level because they might be intended as gags, if Omega Shenron hits Mr. Satan and doesn't kill him then that's a gag and shouldn't be taken seriously, but if SS Broly can't turn the golden off of Freeza for over an hour then it's something to be considered. More so if Freeza is not going to be relevant in the movie anymore and they could've just let him lose his transformation and make us all cry of joy, Gogeta was there to save him anyway, but it didn't happen, SS Broly's power was not enough to knock the golden out of Freeza. And it stands out because we saw Freeza lose his Golden so easily in the ToP, one-punch Jiren and one-punch Toppo, one-punch SSB before the ToP, no matter how strong he got, one hour of taking damage is just too much.

If Broly did get 50 times stronger than his Ikari form, that doesn't mean he is 50 times stronger than SSB Goku/Golden Freeza, only means he is 50 times stronger than his former self. If Goku Blue was holding back his true power against Ikari Broly, then the gap may be smaller than x50, explaining why SS Broly didn't behead Freeza and couldn't really destroy Goku and Vegeta, but was clearly stronger than them all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:31 pm
The main difference I see between Jiren and Broly is that Jiren hardly gave a damn, he had more of a passive role in the whole tournament until Omen showed up, whereas Broly was out of control and going after them non-stop, giving them no rest at all, went crazy like in M8. Jiren just stood there and worked from there, he actually let them regroup, get away, power up, ask about his wish, let them chat with Belmond, fake their deaths...

Also, we can't just wave off facts/feats at this level because they might be intended as gags, if Omega Shenron hits Mr. Satan and doesn't kill him then that's a gag and shouldn't be taken seriously, but if SS Broly can't turn the golden off of Freeza for over an hour then it's something to be considered. More so if Freeza is not going to be relevant in the movie anymore and they could've just let him lose his transformation and make us all cry of joy, Gogeta was there to save him anyway, but it didn't happen, SS Broly's power was not enough to knock the golden out of Freeza. And it stands out because we saw Freeza lose his Golden so easily in the ToP, one-punch Jiren and one-punch Toppo, one-punch SSB before the ToP, no matter how strong he got, one hour of taking damage is just too much.

If Broly did get 50 times stronger than his Ikari form, that doesn't mean he is 50 times stronger than SSB Goku/Golden Freeza, only means he is 50 times stronger than his former self. If Goku Blue was holding back his true power against Ikari Broly, then the gap may be smaller than x50, explaining why SS Broly didn't behead Freeza and couldn't really destroy Goku and Vegeta, but was clearly stronger than them all.
According to Freeza and Paragus dialogues, Goku SSB was stronger than Ikari Broly. If SSJ Broly for some reason was 50x Ikari, maybe it wasn't 50x SSB, but it would be something around that, which I find very exaggerated. Not to mention that it still wouldn't make sense for Broly not to be able to disable Freeza's Golden form if he were so much stronger.

Or perhaps in a hypothetical situation, SSJ Broly is a mixture of Ikari + SSJ, but without a 50x difference between the two forms, especially if we ignore any multiplier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:29 pm
I think the fact that Super Saiyan Broli has green aura in the movie should be enough to clear any doubt. He is obviously different from Goku and Vegeta when they use the form.

By the way, his base form is about as strong as Vegeta’s, so it couldn’t be just a regular Super Saiyan. He only starts to overpower Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base form after he draws power from his next form, just like Vegeta drew power from Super Saiyan to overpower Broli.
No, he begins to overload SSJ Vegeta before using Ikari's power.

He only transforms completely when defeated by SSG Vegeta. And the fact that Vegeta uses the God form implies that Broly's base might be at SSJ2 Vegeta level or higher.

And yes, his aura is green, but that sounds much more like an Old Broly feature they wanted to keep than something related to Ikari's power (SSJ Full Power is different from other SSJ transformations just because Shintani wanted Broly to use the same transformation of his previous version for example). Because visually, SSJ Broly looks just like any other SSJ user.
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:31 pm
The main difference I see between Jiren and Broly is that Jiren hardly gave a damn, he had more of a passive role in the whole tournament until Omen showed up, whereas Broly was out of control and going after them non-stop, giving them no rest at all, went crazy like in M8. Jiren just stood there and worked from there, he actually let them regroup, get away, power up, ask about his wish, let them chat with Belmond, fake their deaths...

Also, we can't just wave off facts/feats at this level because they might be intended as gags, if Omega Shenron hits Mr. Satan and doesn't kill him then that's a gag and shouldn't be taken seriously, but if SS Broly can't turn the golden off of Freeza for over an hour then it's something to be considered. More so if Freeza is not going to be relevant in the movie anymore and they could've just let him lose his transformation and make us all cry of joy, Gogeta was there to save him anyway, but it didn't happen, SS Broly's power was not enough to knock the golden out of Freeza. And it stands out because we saw Freeza lose his Golden so easily in the ToP, one-punch Jiren and one-punch Toppo, one-punch SSB before the ToP, no matter how strong he got, one hour of taking damage is just too much.

If Broly did get 50 times stronger than his Ikari form, that doesn't mean he is 50 times stronger than SSB Goku/Golden Freeza, only means he is 50 times stronger than his former self. If Goku Blue was holding back his true power against Ikari Broly, then the gap may be smaller than x50, explaining why SS Broly didn't behead Freeza and couldn't really destroy Goku and Vegeta, but was clearly stronger than them all.
According to Freeza and Paragus dialogues, Goku SSB was stronger than Ikari Broly. If SSJ Broly for some reason was 50x Ikari, maybe it wasn't 50x SSB, but it would be something around that, which I find very exaggerated. Not to mention that it still wouldn't make sense for Broly not to be able to disable Freeza's Golden form if he were so much stronger.

Or perhaps in a hypothetical situation, SSJ Broly is a mixture of Ikari + SSJ, but without a 50x difference between the two forms, especially if we ignore any multiplier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:59 pm

How does BOG SSJ3 Goku stack up to Baby Vegeta 2?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:12 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:53 pm
No, he begins to overload SSJ Vegeta before using Ikari's power. He only transforms completely when defeated by SSG Vegeta. And the fact that Vegeta uses the God form implies that Broly's base might be at SSJ2 Vegeta level or higher.

And yes, his aura is green, but that sounds much more like an Old Broly feature they wanted to keep than something related to Ikari's power (SSJ Full Power is different from other SSJ transformations just because Shintani wanted Broly to use the same transformation of his previous version for example). Because visually, SSJ Broly looks just like any other SSJ user.
I suggest you check SS Vegeta vs. Broli again. Broli’s eyes start to glow yellow when he is about to turn the tables on Vegeta, which means it wasn’t only his base form power that exceeds Super Saiyan.

I talked about the aura because that’s the most blatant trait, but it’s not the only one. He has no blue/greenish irisis, he is quite large for a Super Saiyan. The only similarity is that he has golden hair, I don’t think that’s enough to put him in the same category as the others.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:24 am

I think what's tripping people up about Ikari SS Broly is the fact that the massive approximately 50 times difference doesn't make sense to them with how Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza performed against that.

If you look at how fights have been done in DBS's anime and even earlier in the film itself, it's really not that big of a deal. If you have more than 1 person, your fighting ability against a stronger opponent increases because you can divert his attention and hit from multiple angles. And if they're going berserk, while they'll hit hard, they don't have the focus and skill to competently kill you; it'll hurt like heck, but you're mostly just gonna be knocked around. We're no longer in the era where a single hit from someone 2-3 times stronger than you will completely floor you; that's the rar exception now.

Goku fought against regular Ikari Broly very well despite him very obviously being stronger than SSG Vegeta in a straight strength matchup in his base and SS forms, not getting instantly killed but instead knocked around. Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza are just used to taking hits and bouncing back from them against stronger opponents.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:32 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:12 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:53 pm
No, he begins to overload SSJ Vegeta before using Ikari's power. He only transforms completely when defeated by SSG Vegeta. And the fact that Vegeta uses the God form implies that Broly's base might be at SSJ2 Vegeta level or higher.

And yes, his aura is green, but that sounds much more like an Old Broly feature they wanted to keep than something related to Ikari's power (SSJ Full Power is different from other SSJ transformations just because Shintani wanted Broly to use the same transformation of his previous version for example). Because visually, SSJ Broly looks just like any other SSJ user.
I suggest you check SS Vegeta vs. Broli again. Broli’s eyes start to glow yellow when he is about to turn the tables on Vegeta, which means it wasn’t only his base form power that exceeds Super Saiyan.

I talked about the aura because that’s the most blatant trait, but it’s not the only one. He has no blue/greenish irisis, he is quite large for a Super Saiyan. The only similarity is that he has golden hair, I don’t think that’s enough to put him in the same category as the others.
You're right, his eyes take Ikari's shape for a moment. But unlike Vegeta (who used the power of SSJ without transforming himself), he retains no trace of Oozaru's power, not even the aura.

And in Broly's model sheets, in his SSJ form, he's exactly the same size as base Broly, with no muscle build-up. And since his pupils disappear, it's hard to say anything
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:24 am

Goku fought against regular Ikari Broly very well despite him very obviously being stronger than SSG Vegeta in a straight strength matchup in his base and SS forms, not getting instantly killed but instead knocked around. Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza are just used to taking hits and bouncing back from them against stronger opponents.
The problem is that we are not talking about a difference of 2 or 3 times, it is 50. Toppo was something around 20 x more powerful than Golden Freeza and destroyed it in minutes.

And the case of SSG and Ikari doesn't really count.
At that time SSG Vegeta / Goku were stronger than Ikari Broly (we see this when Goku easily overpower him and paralyzes him with his Ki, while Vegeta barely gets any hits)
But then Broly increased his power and the difference between him and Goku didn't even have to be anything like 5 or 10x for Broly to quickly defeat him

Just an example using the multipliers

Base Broly : 5
Ikari Broly : 50 (Oozaru multiplier is 10x)
SSJ Broly : 250 (Multiplying 50x the base form as usually is)

Broly would only be 5x stronger than Blue. It would be enough to deal with Goku and Vegeta, but it wouldn't be a considerable difference for him to quickly defeat Freeza

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 am

Once again, I mention that Goku fought Ikari Broly in his base and SS forms despite him demonstrating earlier that he was stronger than SSG Vegeta; the moments where he directly took a punch to the face without flinching and Vegeta failing to get any good damage on him despite hitting him multiple times later in their brief scuffle showcase this well enough. We have to remember that SSG Goku resorted to a special technique to trap Broly, and even then he focused his energy and broke out of it.

I don't think anyone will say that Ikari Broly wasn't several dozens of times, at minimum, stronger than base and SS Goku. You don't need to be that close to someone to take their hits and not be instantly taken out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:54 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 am
Once again, I mention that Goku fought Ikari Broly in his base and SS forms despite him demonstrating earlier that he was stronger than SSG Vegeta; the moments where he directly took a punch to the face without flinching and Vegeta failing to get any good damage on him despite hitting him multiple times later in their brief scuffle showcase this well enough. We have to remember that SSG Goku resorted to a special technique to trap Broly, and even then he focused his energy and broke out of it.

I don't think anyone will say that Ikari Broly wasn't several dozens of times, at minimum, stronger than base and SS Goku. You don't need to be that close to someone to take their hits and not be instantly taken out.
As I said, Goku barely fought in the base form, he quickly turned into SSJ because he was losing and even in SSJ he managed to hold his own for a while. That's different from being brutality for an hour without a chance to even exchange blows with the enemy.

And SSG Goku at the beginning was dominating Broly and easily deflecting his attacks. Goku did not even move after receiving a punch of him. Broly only managed to fight back when he got stronger. Vegeta was also without any scratch after the fight. Broly only overcome the SSG when he faced Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:54 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 am
Once again, I mention that Goku fought Ikari Broly in his base and SS forms despite him demonstrating earlier that he was stronger than SSG Vegeta; the moments where he directly took a punch to the face without flinching and Vegeta failing to get any good damage on him despite hitting him multiple times later in their brief scuffle showcase this well enough. We have to remember that SSG Goku resorted to a special technique to trap Broly, and even then he focused his energy and broke out of it.

I don't think anyone will say that Ikari Broly wasn't several dozens of times, at minimum, stronger than base and SS Goku. You don't need to be that close to someone to take their hits and not be instantly taken out.
As I said, Goku barely fought in the base form, he quickly turned into SSJ because he was losing and even in SSJ he managed to hold his own for a while. That's different from being brutality for an hour without a chance to even exchange blows with the enemy.

And SSG Goku at the beginning was dominating Broly and easily deflecting his attacks. Goku did not even move after receiving a punch of him. Broly only managed to fight back when he got stronger. Vegeta was also without any scratch after the fight. Broly only overcome the SSG when he faced Goku
I think we're at another impassable disagreement in our fundamental understanding of how things went down.

Goku fought Broly in his base form arguably the longest out of his 3 forms, taking multiple blows and throwing quite a few of his own; he's never really damaged so badly despite the enormous power difference, and he resorts to SS to keep up. As well, I never interpreted Broly's escape from the God Bind as another power-up but rather him actually thinking through his predicament and using his superior power to actually specifically break out of his God Ki prison; we see that he calms himself down before then using his energy to break out.

We see that once Broly gets SSG Goku into a proper slugfest, he's the stronger fighter who quite literally ragdolls Goku even worse than he did to Vegeta; Goku's blows barely phase Broly much like Vegeta's did. Vegeta's not the type to hold back, so for me, Ikari Broly already demonstrated he was stronger due to this notion; if SSG Vegeta couldn't land any good hits on Ikari Broly, then he was almost certainly the weaker of the 2 fighters.

All this, combined with the teamwork of Goku and Vegeta and the natural stubbornness of Freeza, is what leads me to believe that they could stand getting knocked around for as long as they did, especially with Freeza. If SSB-level Ikari Broly can't even properly damage base Goku in a few minutes, there's no doubt in my mind that the even less controlled Ikari SS Broly who's 50 times stronger would fail to knock Golden Freeza out.

Again, fundamental disagreement in how we actually read the scenes and context. Agree to disagree?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:47 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:32 am
You're right, his eyes take Ikari's shape for a moment. But unlike Vegeta (who used the power of SSJ without transforming himself), he retains no trace of Oozaru's power, not even the aura.

And in Broly's model sheets, in his SSJ form, he's exactly the same size as base Broly, with no muscle build-up. And since his pupils disappear, it's hard to say anything.
The moment his eyes change is an indication Broli is powering-up beyond his normal limits, so that’s when he is starting to use Great Ape powers until he finally gets into the form itself and completes it. I think Goku had a similar moment when he defeated Piccolo the first time, he just didn’t have Broli’s ability to keep the power without transforming into Great Ape.

Super Saiyan Broli model sheet is very different from his look in the movie. He is actually larger than his second form and his hair is wider. Check when Goku and Vegeta leave Freeza alone with Broli or when Gogeta dodges one of his assaults.

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