Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Thani
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Super Saiyan Broly is enormus in the film, yeah. I'd say the final result have precedence of previous concept arts.

By the way, Super doesn't really care that much about numbers and multipliers anymore. Case in point, anime M. Zamasu. He was on a similar ballpark to SSB Vegito and was absolutely trashing SSB Goku and Vegeta with little to no effort. But they weren't completely helpless against him, and even landed some good hits (thanks to his hubris more than anything, but still).

So it's perfectly acceptable (to me and me alone, mind you) that SSj Broly became "50x stronger" (or whatever super saiyan meant for the movie) than Goku and Vegeta while still having them hold their own. It's the so called suspension of disbelief.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:03 pm

Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Super Saiyan Broly is enormus in the film, yeah. I'd say the final result have precedence of previous concept arts.

By the way, Super doesn't really care that much about numbers and multipliers anymore. Case in point, anime M. Zamasu. He was on a similar ballpark to SSB Vegito and was absolutely trashing SSB Goku and Vegeta with little to no effort. But they weren't completely helpless against him, and even landed some good hits (thanks to his hubris more than anything, but still).

So it's perfectly acceptable (to me and me alone, mind you) that SSj Broly became "50x stronger" (or whatever super saiyan meant for the movie) than Goku and Vegeta while still having them hold their own. It's the so called suspension of disbelief.
The Merged Zamasu that fought Goku, Vegeta and Trunks is very different than the one Vegetto fought.

Initial Merged Zamasu is weaker than KKx10 Blue Goku while on his corrupted form he's GoD tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:18 pm

I would be careful saying FT arc Vegetto and Merged Zamas was god level. No such thing was ever stated for them.
The only person who truly was god level was Jiren cause he actually was stronger than universe 11's god in Belmond.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:27 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:18 pm
I would be careful saying FT arc Vegetto and Merged Zamas was god level. No such thing was ever stated for them.
The only person who truly was god level was Jiren cause he actually was stronger than universe 11's god in Belmond.
No.

Jiren is above GoD tier. Being GoD tier doesn't mean you have to be stronger than the GoD's.

Zamasu, Vegetto, Kefla, GoD Toppo, Angered SSBE Vegeta and UI Omen Goku are all GoD tier.

Also since Blue Gogeta was already above them then Vegetto Blue can't be that far behind. A 7 or so to Gogeta's 10.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:34 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:54 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 am
Once again, I mention that Goku fought Ikari Broly in his base and SS forms despite him demonstrating earlier that he was stronger than SSG Vegeta; the moments where he directly took a punch to the face without flinching and Vegeta failing to get any good damage on him despite hitting him multiple times later in their brief scuffle showcase this well enough. We have to remember that SSG Goku resorted to a special technique to trap Broly, and even then he focused his energy and broke out of it.

I don't think anyone will say that Ikari Broly wasn't several dozens of times, at minimum, stronger than base and SS Goku. You don't need to be that close to someone to take their hits and not be instantly taken out.
As I said, Goku barely fought in the base form, he quickly turned into SSJ because he was losing and even in SSJ he managed to hold his own for a while. That's different from being brutality for an hour without a chance to even exchange blows with the enemy.

And SSG Goku at the beginning was dominating Broly and easily deflecting his attacks. Goku did not even move after receiving a punch of him. Broly only managed to fight back when he got stronger. Vegeta was also without any scratch after the fight. Broly only overcome the SSG when he faced Goku
I think we're at another impassable disagreement in our fundamental understanding of how things went down.

Goku fought Broly in his base form arguably the longest out of his 3 forms, taking multiple blows and throwing quite a few of his own; he's never really damaged so badly despite the enormous power difference, and he resorts to SS to keep up. As well, I never interpreted Broly's escape from the God Bind as another power-up but rather him actually thinking through his predicament and using his superior power to actually specifically break out of his God Ki prison; we see that he calms himself down before then using his energy to break out.

We see that once Broly gets SSG Goku into a proper slugfest, he's the stronger fighter who quite literally ragdolls Goku even worse than he did to Vegeta; Goku's blows barely phase Broly much like Vegeta's did. Vegeta's not the type to hold back, so for me, Ikari Broly already demonstrated he was stronger due to this notion; if SSG Vegeta couldn't land any good hits on Ikari Broly, then he was almost certainly the weaker of the 2 fighters.

All this, combined with the teamwork of Goku and Vegeta and the natural stubbornness of Freeza, is what leads me to believe that they could stand getting knocked around for as long as they did, especially with Freeza. If SSB-level Ikari Broly can't even properly damage base Goku in a few minutes, there's no doubt in my mind that the even less controlled Ikari SS Broly who's 50 times stronger would fail to knock Golden Freeza out.

Again, fundamental disagreement in how we actually read the scenes and context. Agree to disagree?
Yes, definitely our ideas don't seem to come to terms. I just want to demonstrate through pictures what I mean (I think that this can get more clear )

Initially, Ikari Broly's blows couldn't even make Goku move (Broly had already left Ki's prison), and Goku could easily throw him to the ground.


The situation only changed when Broly raised his Ki again. And you can see that after this power up, he gets even bigger than before (comparing the two images where Goku is in front of Broly, the difference is clear). And after that, none of Goku's attacks work anymore. Maybe you think Broly just unleashed more of his true power. Yes, maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that before that, he wasn't SSB level


We even have scenes where even SSJ Goku can actually hit Ikari Broly. It's not like he was SSB level throughout the fight, it only happened when Goku was already in God, they never fought while there was such a huge difference in powers. He evolved until reach this point

Just to complement, we have SSG Vegeta hitting Ikari Broly too (and unlike before, it really makes Broly move). The fight doesn't last long enough for either of them to get tired, but Vegeta is never overpowered.


As I said, the point of SSJ transformation is to increase power over the base form. So Broly could never really be 50x stronger than Ikari, this is an argument used because some people think that Ikari and base is the same thing.
SSJ2 is 100x stronger than Base, but only 2 times stronger than SSJ.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:47 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:32 am
You're right, his eyes take Ikari's shape for a moment. But unlike Vegeta (who used the power of SSJ without transforming himself), he retains no trace of Oozaru's power, not even the aura.

And in Broly's model sheets, in his SSJ form, he's exactly the same size as base Broly, with no muscle build-up. And since his pupils disappear, it's hard to say anything.
The moment his eyes change is an indication Broli is powering-up beyond his normal limits, so that’s when he is starting to use Great Ape powers until he finally gets into the form itself and completes it. I think Goku had a similar moment when he defeated Piccolo the first time, he just didn’t have Broli’s ability to keep the power without transforming into Great Ape.

Super Saiyan Broli model sheet is very different from his look in the movie. He is actually larger than his second form and his hair is wider. Check when Goku and Vegeta leave Freeza alone with Broli or when Gogeta dodges one of his assaults.
Yeah, I think your point makes sense, maybe he was already using Oozaru's power since that moment. But based on the level of power up that each transformation gives, the SSJ would still be considerably stronger than Ikari Broly, even if his base wasn't as strong.

In my opinion, these model sheets are representations of what those involved in the movie thought for each Broly transformation. In the movie, eventually that changes because there are several people animating the movie.

For example, in the anime, when Goku turns into SSJ to face Android 19, his muscles get bigger. But in the manga there's no demonstration of it.
Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:01 pm
Super Saiyan Broly is enormus in the film, yeah. I'd say the final result have precedence of previous concept arts.

By the way, Super doesn't really care that much about numbers and multipliers anymore. Case in point, anime M. Zamasu. He was on a similar ballpark to SSB Vegito and was absolutely trashing SSB Goku and Vegeta with little to no effort. But they weren't completely helpless against him, and even landed some good hits (thanks to his hubris more than anything, but still).

So it's perfectly acceptable (to me and me alone, mind you) that SSj Broly became "50x stronger" (or whatever super saiyan meant for the movie) than Goku and Vegeta while still having them hold their own. It's the so called suspension of disbelief.
I'm talking a lot about multipliers, but honestly I don't even like using them, because it seems that even Toriyama himself doesn't really think about it (he even said he felt that SSJ was only 10x stronger than base, which doesn't make sense). But a lot of people use it, it's official and the whole 50x argument is based on that, so I eventually use it (if those numbers didn't exist, such a big difference between SSJ Broly and Blue would not have been imagined).

And as already said, Merged and Corrupted Zamasu have very different levels. Goku and Vegeta SSB in FT arc could not face Corrupted the same way they faced initial MZ. That doesn't prove the point of Broly being 50x stronger than Blue but can't even make unconscious someone em this level

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:27 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:18 pm
I would be careful saying FT arc Vegetto and Merged Zamas was god level. No such thing was ever stated for them.
The only person who truly was god level was Jiren cause he actually was stronger than universe 11's god in Belmond.
No.

Jiren is above GoD tier. Being GoD tier doesn't mean you have to be stronger than the GoD's.

Zamasu, Vegetto, Kefla, GoD Toppo, Angered SSBE Vegeta and UI Omen Goku are all GoD tier.

Also since Blue Gogeta was already above them then Vegetto Blue can't be that far behind. A 7 or so to Gogeta's 10.
We know the high tier characters from the TOP are god level cause the main antagonist was stated to be that level.
No such pinnacle was stated for FT Vegetto and Merged Zamas.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:53 pm

Guys, how strong do you think Moro is?

I really do not understand this guy.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:49 pm
We know the high tier characters from the TOP are god level cause the main antagonist was stated to be that level.
No such pinnacle was stated for FT Vegetto and Merged Zamas.
You didn't read the last thing I said right?

Since Gogeta already surpassed Beerus then Vegetto can't be behind by that much. There's also Shin's statement in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:28 pm
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:49 pm
We know the high tier characters from the TOP are god level cause the main antagonist was stated to be that level.
No such pinnacle was stated for FT Vegetto and Merged Zamas.
You didn't read the last thing I said right?

Since Gogeta already surpassed Beerus then Vegetto can't be behind by that much. There's also Shin's statement in the manga.
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:53 pm
Guys, how strong do you think Moro is?

I really do not understand this guy.
Vegeta said that only he or Goku using the full power of the SSB would be able to beat Moro (he was aware of the energy absorption). So I suppose Moro's gross power is greater than SSG and probably imperfect SSB, but considerably weaker than MSSB (not considering the evolved version that Vegeta showed on ToP and his first fight against Moro)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:34 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:53 pm
Guys, how strong do you think Moro is?

I really do not understand this guy.
I don't either. Goku said SSB would do the trick, but 10 million years ago, a couple of SS2-3 tier characters where giving him some fight. Maybe we can say back in the day, the original Moro was like a SS3, and after absorbing Goku and Vegeta he got somewhere above SS God?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:47 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:18 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:47 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.
I made this scale for thr ToP top dogs.

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren<SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta<3rd Omen=Full Power/100% Jiren<limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren<MUI (Rage Boost)≈Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

According to you, Vegito should be below Toppo? I place Merged Zamasu above him, because Heroes did a good job with scaling Zamasu and these ToP fighters. As for FP SSJ Broly, I think that he should be above Kefla but below 3rd Omen. Enough to challenge a GoD. Possibly defeat one.

And if Vegito is a 7 to Gogeta's 10, then placing him nearly as an equal to Blue Evolution Vegeta, makes sense. Unless if the order is like:

Merged Zamasu<Blue Vegito (FT arc)<GoD Toppo<Blue Evolution Vegeta

This fricks up a little with what we got from Heroes tho. I know, it isn't Canon, but you understand at which fights I am referring to.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:23 am

Another reminder that the ultra-suppressed Jiren from EP122 got a "strongest ki I've ever felt" statement from Vegeta who had seen Beerus and Champa beat each other into bloody messes at full capacity. :wave:

Oh Toei.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:26 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:47 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.
Even if we disregard Shin's statement, we have very pertinent dialogues about Jiren's power. In EP 122, as shown, Vegeta said that Super Supressed Jiren had the strongest Ki he ever felt in his life (considering he saw FP Zamasu, supressed Beerus and was part of the Vegetto fusion). In EP 123, Vermouth said Jiren unleashed a power he had not seen in a long time, that is, greater than anything he had used in ToP so far. (Just a note, Goku SSB was able to hold his own much more evenly than before).
This basically implies that Supressed Jiren was stronger than Vegetto and Zamasu and he used even more power in EP 123. In FT arc I considered that Vegetto was stronger than Beerus, but that doesn't seem to make much sense now.

Beerus > SSB Vegetto > Supressed Jiren > Kefla/Toppo/Vegeta/ UI Omen?
Doesn't make much sense
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:18 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:47 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.
I made this scale for thr ToP top dogs.

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren<SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta<3rd Omen=Full Power/100% Jiren<limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren<MUI (Rage Boost)≈Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

According to you, Vegito should be below Toppo? I place Merged Zamasu above him, because Heroes did a good job with scaling Zamasu and these ToP fighters. As for FP SSJ Broly, I think that he should be above Kefla but below 3rd Omen. Enough to challenge a GoD. Possibly defeat one.

And if Vegito is a 7 to Gogeta's 10, then placing him nearly as an equal to Blue Evolution Vegeta, makes sense. Unless if the order is like:

Merged Zamasu<Blue Vegito (FT arc)<GoD Toppo<Blue Evolution Vegeta

This fricks up a little with what we got from Heroes tho. I know, it isn't Canon, but you understand at which fights I am referring to.
Where would you put Vegeta's Final Flash from EP 122? Seems to fit in this ranking

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:53 am

Where would you put Vegeta's Final Flash from EP 122? Seems to fit in this ranking
So, given my original rankings, with Merged Zamasu being above GoD Toppo, I would place Vegeta in this level:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Given how he commented on Jiren's strength being greater against 1st Omen Goku. At this point, without taking into account Vegeta's power ups in Blue Evolution, he has reached his peak power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:16 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:34 pm
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:53 pm
Guys, how strong do you think Moro is?

I really do not understand this guy.
I don't either. Goku said SSB would do the trick, but 10 million years ago, a couple of SS2-3 tier characters where giving him some fight. Maybe we can say back in the day, the original Moro was like a SS3, and after absorbing Goku and Vegeta he got somewhere above SS God?
That's what I thought at first, but then you have Moro telling God Vegeta that he would've be an ant to him in his prime.

It's odd thinking of Moro as a Super Saiyan God level being millions of yrs back. It would also mean Dai and South were likely way more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 and 3.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:25 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:16 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:34 pm
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:53 pm
Guys, how strong do you think Moro is?

I really do not understand this guy.
I don't either. Goku said SSB would do the trick, but 10 million years ago, a couple of SS2-3 tier characters where giving him some fight. Maybe we can say back in the day, the original Moro was like a SS3, and after absorbing Goku and Vegeta he got somewhere above SS God?
That's what I thought at first, but then you have Moro telling God Vegeta that he would've be an ant to him in his prime.

It's odd thinking of Moro as a Super Saiyan God level being millions of yrs back. It would also mean Dai and South were likely way more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 and 3.
Dai definitely was, and he sacrificed most of his power to seal Moro's magic. South was pretty useless in the flashback.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:29 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:16 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:34 pm
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:53 pm
Guys, how strong do you think Moro is?

I really do not understand this guy.
I don't either. Goku said SSB would do the trick, but 10 million years ago, a couple of SS2-3 tier characters where giving him some fight. Maybe we can say back in the day, the original Moro was like a SS3, and after absorbing Goku and Vegeta he got somewhere above SS God?
That's what I thought at first, but then you have Moro telling God Vegeta that he would've be an ant to him in his prime.

It's odd thinking of Moro as a Super Saiyan God level being millions of yrs back. It would also mean Dai and South were likely way more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 and 3.
Which, frankly, would make no sense. As only the Grand Supreme Kai was the one that got visibly weaker in all those years, nullifying Moro's magic with his God Powers, without South, West and North Supreme Kais doing anything similar.

Point is, the fight with Kid Buu. This Buu, controlled by Bibiddi, had no access to God Ki, unlike the one who faced Goku. So a weaker Buu, defeating these gods, doesn't really leave much space for them to be near SSJ3 power, let alone SSJG. The form has been nerfed is all... Just like every new form that is replaced by a superior one.

Out of nowhere we have all those enemies who can rival God's might. Story progress, but at least the authors should make some points for the power being still something serious and important.
Dai definitely was, and he sacrificed most of his power to seal Moro's magic. South was pretty useless in the flashback.
I agree with this statement.
P O W E R

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:39 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:53 am
Where would you put Vegeta's Final Flash from EP 122? Seems to fit in this ranking
So, given my original rankings, with Merged Zamasu being above GoD Toppo, I would place Vegeta in this level:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Given how he commented on Jiren's strength being greater against 1st Omen Goku. At this point, without taking into account Vegeta's power ups in Blue Evolution, he has reached his peak power.
Considering that Vegeta's FF didn't hurt Supressed Jiren who was on the same level as UI Omen Goku (1st appearance), it makes sense that he is below. But considering all the power up that Vegeta received before firing the FF and the reaction of Jiren and his teammates, it's plausible that it's above Goku's Spirit Bomb.

But I put GoD Toppo above Corrupted Zamasu

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:21 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:34 pm
As I said, the point of SSJ transformation is to increase power over the base form. So Broly could never really be 50x stronger than Ikari, this is an argument used because some people think that Ikari and base is the same thing.

...

[...] based on the level of power up that each transformation gives, the SSJ would still be considerably stronger than Ikari Broly, even if his base wasn't as strong.

...

I'm talking a lot about multipliers, but honestly I don't even like using them, because it seems that even Toriyama himself doesn't really think about it (he even said he felt that SSJ was only 10x stronger than base, which doesn't make sense). But a lot of people use it, it's official and the whole 50x argument is based on that, so I eventually use it (if those numbers didn't exist, such a big difference between SSJ Broly and Blue would not have been imagined).
I think official multipliers don’t match well with Broli. His first stage is weaker than SS Vegeta and he already had to tap into his Great Ape powers to keep up. If his completed 2nd stage is only 10-fold boosted, that would mean SSBlue can be only 10-fold boosted in relation to Super Saiyan, giving little room for SSGod to be more powerful than SS2 and SS3. Besides, Gogeta would be about as strong as Broli’s first stage and also weaker than SS Vegeta, which doesn’t make sense, if Kafla and Vegetto are stronger than SSGod.

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