Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:08 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:57 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:50 am

Final verdict:

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<Blue Vegeta (FF)≈Merged Zamasu (peak)<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren

Even though there was some progress with Vegeta and Goku, I still placed them above Goku's "peak" from the early ToP and Vegeta's all mighty attack, before Blue Evolution appeared. Still, the gap was closed.
Yeah, I think it makes sense what you said. Vegetto was definitely stronger than FP Zamasu, and Zamasu himself at his peak must have had a boost of 10x or more (compared to the initial MZ), probably above SSB KK x20 Goku (EP 110).

But how do you see Goku / Vegeta at the end of the arc compared to the start of the tournament? SSB KK x20 was destroyed by Jiren with a glare on EP 110, but on EP 123 only with SSB he managed to hold his own against Jiren, who according to Vermouth, was using a power he had not seen for a long time (this is, bigger than against UI Goku). And SSB Vegeta, who in EP 122 received considerable power up due to a pride boost and used a potentially stronger FF than Spirit Bomb + SSB KK x20
For me, both Vegeta and Goku got around 20 times stronger in Base during the Tournament. A considerable increase but nothing unfathomable and massive enough to make them unrivaled in comparison to previous threats. That said, Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta from the very end of ToP are equal to Blue KK×20 Goku from the beginning of the Tournament. The fights, the statements, the performance against Jiren of the two, the statements with the spirit bomb, the comments on both individuals' power being increased by continuous battle, all translate into them having gotten stronger.
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:07 pm
Do we have consensus, or something similar to that, regarding just how much of a boost SSGod gives? in the x1000s, in the x10.000s? millions?
As for that, I said that my multiplier is the sum of the Super Saiyan multipliers of the ones performing the ritual 5×50=250, multiplied by the sixth Saiyan's Super Saiyan multiplier, 250×50=12500.

An easy multiplier which makes sense. I mean as to it's gap with SSJ3 and in instances such as the Broly movie, and other events. Blue is ×5 God for me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:25 am

Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafer Z: Super Decisive Battle of Strong People (Set of 20) (Shokugan)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:32 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:25 am
Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafer Z: Super Decisive Battle of Strong People (Set of 20) (Shokugan)

Source
Wait, is that a waffle? I mean are these stickers a prize from a waffle? Lol
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:41 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:32 am
Wait, is that a waffle? I mean are these stickers a prize from a waffle? Lol
Pretty much. This is the 12th set.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:36 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:03 pm
I thought it was established that Zamasu (not merged) was around SSJ2 in strength.
In the manga.

In the anime he literally trades blows with SsjB Goku, Vegeta and Ssj Rage Trunks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:39 pm

one thing must be considered: unlike pretty much all the other power-ups, the improvement they got in the ToP were "limit breaking".

I wouldn't be sure post-ToP Goku&Vegeta were as strong as their Late-ToP selves.
I mean: no doubt they got stronger, but not THAT much. if anything, their improvements would be having mastered\gained Kaioken x20 and Blue Evolution

Last: pre-3rd UI-Omen Jiren is arguably the most useless character ever for strength comparison.
He was basically playing the whole time, even getting called on it by Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:42 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:57 pm
Well, then disregarding all the multipliers, just for curiosity, how much do you think is the difference between SSJ Broly and SSB?
I think it’s the same difference between Super Gogeta and SSBlue, which is unknown.
I see, so for you this difference is still unknown. But then I'll specify further to have a better parameter

Do you think SSJ Broly is stronger than SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku?
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:27 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:18 am
I made this scale for thr ToP top dogs.

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren<SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta<3rd Omen=Full Power/100% Jiren<limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren<MUI (Rage Boost)≈Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

According to you, Vegito should be below Toppo? I place Merged Zamasu above him, because Heroes did a good job with scaling Zamasu and these ToP fighters. As for FP SSJ Broly, I think that he should be above Kefla but below 3rd Omen. Enough to challenge a GoD. Possibly defeat one.

And if Vegito is a 7 to Gogeta's 10, then placing him nearly as an equal to Blue Evolution Vegeta, makes sense. Unless if the order is like:

Merged Zamasu<Blue Vegito (FT arc)<GoD Toppo<Blue Evolution Vegeta

This fricks up a little with what we got from Heroes tho. I know, it isn't Canon, but you understand at which fights I am referring to.
This is where we disagree. I don't think Goku or Vegeta got any stronger in their regular forms. Broly was also stated to be on par with Beerus so he can't be that low.
So, do you think that throughout the tournament, Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger? Is their power at the end of ToP exactly the same as the beginning of ToP (base form)?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:22 pm

What's interesting about this set of stickers are the Boo arc power levels.

SSJ Vegito: 7,500

Pure Boo: 7,200

SSJ3 Goku: 6,000

SSJ3 Gotenks: 5,900

Majin Vegeta: 5,700

Gohan: 5,000

Goten and Trunks: 5,000

Piccolo: 4,500

Innocent Boo: 3,500

Don't know what's going on with Gohan, Goten & Trunks, Piccolo and Innocent Boo. I'm guessing the context of the picture matters. Innocent Boo is playing with Mr Satan and Bee so he wouldn't be in a battle state hence the low power level. Majin Vegeta is also below Cell whom is at 5,800 which is obviously wrong. Don't know if that's taking his Kamehameha into account. Piccolo shouldn't be below the Base Saiyans. Though I don't know if it should be interpreted as Base Goten and Trunks together are stronger than Piccolo and Gohan while wielding the Z-Sword is superior to Piccolo but isn't without. The gap between Pure Boo and SSJ3 Goku appears huge which isn't really inaccurate with what the anime showed and Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks which isn't really inaccurate to what the anime showed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:16 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:26 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:42 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:57 pm
Well, then disregarding all the multipliers, just for curiosity, how much do you think is the difference between SSJ Broly and SSB?
I think it’s the same difference between Super Gogeta and SSBlue, which is unknown.
I see, so for you this difference is still unknown. But then I'll specify further to have a better parameter

Do you think SSJ Broly is stronger than SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku?
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:27 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:18 am
I made this scale for thr ToP top dogs.

Universal Spirit Bomb≈Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110)=Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla)=SSJ Kefla<1st Omen≈Supressed Jiren<SSJ2 Kefla<2nd Omen<GoD Toppo<Merged Zamasu (peak)<FP SSJ Broly<Vegito Blue (FT arc)<=Blue Evolution Vegeta<3rd Omen=Full Power/100% Jiren<limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren<MUI (Rage Boost)≈Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

According to you, Vegito should be below Toppo? I place Merged Zamasu above him, because Heroes did a good job with scaling Zamasu and these ToP fighters. As for FP SSJ Broly, I think that he should be above Kefla but below 3rd Omen. Enough to challenge a GoD. Possibly defeat one.

And if Vegito is a 7 to Gogeta's 10, then placing him nearly as an equal to Blue Evolution Vegeta, makes sense. Unless if the order is like:

Merged Zamasu<Blue Vegito (FT arc)<GoD Toppo<Blue Evolution Vegeta

This fricks up a little with what we got from Heroes tho. I know, it isn't Canon, but you understand at which fights I am referring to.
This is where we disagree. I don't think Goku or Vegeta got any stronger in their regular forms. Broly was also stated to be on par with Beerus so he can't be that low.
So, do you think that throughout the tournament, Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger? Is their power at the end of ToP exactly the same as the beginning of ToP (base form)?
Of course.

No power up was stated at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:36 am

I'm willing to accept they got stronger because of the tournament, but not that ludicrously stronger. It was already estabilished their bodies were at their limits way back, after all.

They broke their limite constantly though, many times out of rage or pride, which increased their performance, but it's as the name implies. They were performing beyond their natural limits, that is not the norm. It's believable that, after everything, their bodies went back to normal.

The manga was kinda like that. Outside of new forms, the fighters weren't getting constantly stronger. And even the power they obtained was lost after the tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:44 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:47 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.
I mean even Zamasu brought up how vegito supassed Gods during there fight.
Here how I put it
MUI Goku
LB Jiren
FP Jiren
UI Omen 3 goku
FT arc Vegito
SSJBE Vegeta
GoD Toppo
Corrupted Zamasu
UI Omen 2 goku/ Kefla

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:53 am

Goku and vegeta gains are exaggerated they got stronger but not to any ridiculous levels some say may say in blue.
What people tend to forget is toei couldn’t care about consistency and can’t have the duo get reduced to gore by jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:01 am

Mirroring others here, while they got stronger, it's not really to an obvious degree.

Like, SSB Goku and Vegeta before the Tournament of Power could probably still take on and be on equal footing to themselves after the tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:18 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:26 pm
Do you think SSJ Broly is stronger than SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku?
I’m not sure, but perhaps he isn’t.


This is the only thing I’ve found to compare them. It’s from Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafers Z Power-up of Different Dimension (11th set of Bandai Wafer Stickers).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:46 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:27 pm
Of course.

No power up was stated at all.
The whole point of ToP was about breaking limits, even Vegeta talked about how much the Saiyans managed to get stronger in the tournament even in a very limited time.
And the strengthening of Goku and Vegeta was implied through dialogues of other characters (not necessarily related to both).

Goku SSB KK x20 was destroyed by supressed Jiren with a glare, and a few episodes later (after defeats and recoveries, something that strengthens the Saiyans) we have SSB Goku holding his own against a Jiren who was using more power than ever before. He even showed a hint of his true potential (something he didn't even do against UI Goku). It was directly said that SSB Vegeta gained a power boost against Jiren and we saw it in his FF.
Block88 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:53 am
Goku and vegeta gains are exaggerated they got stronger but not to any ridiculous levels some say may say in blue.
What people tend to forget is toei couldn’t care about consistency and can’t have the duo get reduced to gore by jiren.
ToP has several inconsistencies. If we consider everything as inconsistencies, there will be no comparisons of strenght because nothing more will be valid (some things considered as inconsistency even happened more than once, emphasizing that situation).

Kefla SSJ's power was said to rival Genkidama, implying that she was on par with SSB KK x20. But SSB KK Goku almost defeated her with one shot. It implies that he was stronger than before (regardless how much), and this was not the only time the anime implied it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:25 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:46 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:27 pm
Of course.

No power up was stated at all.
The whole point of ToP was about breaking limits, even Vegeta talked about how much the Saiyans managed to get stronger in the tournament even in a very limited time.
And the strengthening of Goku and Vegeta was implied through dialogues of other characters (not necessarily related to both).

Goku SSB KK x20 was destroyed by supressed Jiren with a glare, and a few episodes later (after defeats and recoveries, something that strengthens the Saiyans) we have SSB Goku holding his own against a Jiren who was using more power than ever before. He even showed a hint of his true potential (something he didn't even do against UI Goku). It was directly said that SSB Vegeta gained a power boost against Jiren and we saw it in his FF.
Block88 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:53 am
Goku and vegeta gains are exaggerated they got stronger but not to any ridiculous levels some say may say in blue.
What people tend to forget is toei couldn’t care about consistency and can’t have the duo get reduced to gore by jiren.
ToP has several inconsistencies. If we consider everything as inconsistencies, there will be no comparisons of strenght because nothing more will be valid (some things considered as inconsistency even happened more than once, emphasizing that situation).

Kefla SSJ's power was said to rival Genkidama, implying that she was on par with SSB KK x20. But SSB KK Goku almost defeated her with one shot. It implies that he was stronger than before (regardless how much), and this was not the only time the anime implied it.
I agree 100% with this.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:01 am
Mirroring others here, while they got stronger, it's not really to an obvious degree.

Like, SSB Goku and Vegeta before the Tournament of Power could probably still take on and be on equal footing to themselves after the tournament.
For me they got 20 times stronger. For 45% of the series that takes place within 48 minutes within a span of 2 years, such an increase doesn't sound that much, does it?

Not to mention that with this into mind, one can easily place the Broly movie characters in the perfect spots when compared to the ToP characters.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:38 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:46 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:27 pm
Of course.

No power up was stated at all.
The whole point of ToP was about breaking limits, even Vegeta talked about how much the Saiyans managed to get stronger in the tournament even in a very limited time.
And the strengthening of Goku and Vegeta was implied through dialogues of other characters (not necessarily related to both).

Goku SSB KK x20 was destroyed by supressed Jiren with a glare, and a few episodes later (after defeats and recoveries, something that strengthens the Saiyans) we have SSB Goku holding his own against a Jiren who was using more power than ever before. He even showed a hint of his true potential (something he didn't even do against UI Goku). It was directly said that SSB Vegeta gained a power boost against Jiren and we saw it in his FF.
Block88 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:53 am
Goku and vegeta gains are exaggerated they got stronger but not to any ridiculous levels some say may say in blue.
What people tend to forget is toei couldn’t care about consistency and can’t have the duo get reduced to gore by jiren.
ToP has several inconsistencies. If we consider everything as inconsistencies, there will be no comparisons of strenght because nothing more will be valid (some things considered as inconsistency even happened more than once, emphasizing that situation).

Kefla SSJ's power was said to rival Genkidama, implying that she was on par with SSB KK x20. But SSB KK Goku almost defeated her with one shot. It implies that he was stronger than before (regardless how much), and this was not the only time the anime implied it.
Vegeta comment referred to there strongest form (ultimate gohan,ssj2 cabba,Kefla final stand, Vegeta ssjbe)
Goku was stated to be weakened multiple times during that fight with kefla and you can argue kefla was holding back in ssj and didn’t get to that level till she powered up
Goku holding his own against jiren means nothing considering jiren shut him down. And it’s no different when goku kept up with jiren during there first fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:28 pm

TOEI's writing is inconsistent. There is no way to tell if Goku and Vegeta grew in overall strength other than gaining new power ups by limit break. Only the fandom inserts the narrative that Goku was holding back in his first bout against Kale/Caulifla. In order to make sense of Goku's SSJ2/god handling Caulfla and a stronger berserk Kale at the same time. When he was rag dolled by Kale earlier. Or we say he got stronger due to "Zenkai [Which is what I go with since Zamas wanted Goku's body for the Saiyan trait of boosting after battle]." However, TOEI never stated this was the case for the TOP.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:55 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:46 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:27 pm
Of course.

No power up was stated at all.
The whole point of ToP was about breaking limits, even Vegeta talked about how much the Saiyans managed to get stronger in the tournament even in a very limited time.
And the strengthening of Goku and Vegeta was implied through dialogues of other characters (not necessarily related to both).

Goku SSB KK x20 was destroyed by supressed Jiren with a glare, and a few episodes later (after defeats and recoveries, something that strengthens the Saiyans) we have SSB Goku holding his own against a Jiren who was using more power than ever before. He even showed a hint of his true potential (something he didn't even do against UI Goku). It was directly said that SSB Vegeta gained a power boost against Jiren and we saw it in his FF.
Block88 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:53 am
Goku and vegeta gains are exaggerated they got stronger but not to any ridiculous levels some say may say in blue.
What people tend to forget is toei couldn’t care about consistency and can’t have the duo get reduced to gore by jiren.
ToP has several inconsistencies. If we consider everything as inconsistencies, there will be no comparisons of strenght because nothing more will be valid (some things considered as inconsistency even happened more than once, emphasizing that situation).

Kefla SSJ's power was said to rival Genkidama, implying that she was on par with SSB KK x20. But SSB KK Goku almost defeated her with one shot. It implies that he was stronger than before (regardless how much), and this was not the only time the anime implied it.
No.

That Vegeta scene is about them breaking their limits by gaining new transformations (Cabba with SS2), improving ones they had already (SSBE and UI) or fusing (Kefla).

So again, no statement exist that they actually got stronger in base. That FF scene you mentioned is about Vegeta increasing the amp of the attack by breaking his limits.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by kaiowhatmaster » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:10 pm

Block88 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:44 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:47 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 pm
If you consider the current Vegetto, yes. But FT arc Vegetto is not that strong compared to some characters that came up in ToP. Supressed Jiren from EP 110 had a Ki that Shin had never seen before and at EP 122, the strongest Ki Vegeta has ever felt in his life. And we saw that Kefla SSJ2, SSBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo and UI Omen are all at this level

At least in the anime, that version of Vegetto didn't seem able to beat Beerus considering everything that happened on ToP. Now would definitely defeat him
Shin statement is vague and can even be interpreted in other ways. People have debated this a lot so I'll just say I don't subscribed to it and leave it there.

The Vegeta line in E123 doesn't disprove what I said about FT Vegetto.

So again. FT Vegetto can be a 7 to Gogeta's 10 and it breaks nothing. Vegetto would still be GoD tier, just at the lower end of it while Gogeta surpasses it.
I mean even Zamasu brought up how vegito supassed Gods during there fight.
Here how I put it
MUI Goku
LB Jiren
FP Jiren
UI Omen 3 goku
FT arc Vegito
SSJBE Vegeta
GoD Toppo
Corrupted Zamasu
UI Omen 2 goku/ Kefla
Shin statement really isn't vague,the next statement he goes to make pretty much states he was referring to his strength being above anything they face before,even Whis support his statements so Vegito Blue (FT arc) would pretty much get smacked around by the higher tiers in the T.o.P going by how he's comparable to Corrupted Merged Zamasu who wasn't low G.o.D tier character,let alone UIO Goku (Ep 110) level.Only Manga Vegito Blue would be G.o.D tier with the final kamehameha.

Nothing suggest Merged Zamasu knows the G.o.Ds true power and easily gets contradicted,the fact that U9 Kai goes on to make statement of SSJB Goku having power that "rivals" the gods would be suggesting that SSJB Goku rivals the G.o.Ds which is clearly wrong going by how that Goku doesn't even surpass Sidra.

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