Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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RandomGuy96
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:14 pm

Something from the otherwise clear manga:

Are CSSB Goku/Vegeta supposed to be on low GoD level, or aren't they?

On one hand, Iwan said that Goku and Toppo's fight was "already on the level of us Gods of Destruction", Zamasu describes Hit and Goku as "this close to the power of the Gods of Destruction", Beerus tells Vegeta he could be a GoD in another universe, and Vermoud comments that he's going to retire "any day now" so that (CSSB-tier) Toppo can take his place. This is all pretty clear and fits rather well with the premise of BoG that SSG Goku is somewhere in the stratosphere of Beerus's power (enough for the latter to have fun, at least), if not exactly 60% like he was pre-retcon.

On the other hand, Goku is blown away by the power of all the GoDs in the exhibition match, Goku is flabbergasted when he learns about someone "stronger than a God of Destruction!?" as if that's a general level no one else came close to reaching, at least half the GoDs are shown to be able to hurt each other in the exhibition match and gain edges over all the others at the same time with special techniques (as Beerus, Vermoud, and Rumsshi all manage) implying there's not a huge gap, and "stronger than a God of Destruction" is consistently used out of universe to hype up Broly and Jiren, which makes little sense if rage boosted CSSB Vegeta and not-KK CSSB Goku can be described the same way.

On the other other hand, Goku does seem quite shocked by how utterly Jiren crushes him before the Gray powers up (despite Goku sensing the full power of all the GoDs), so did Goku think he could at least put up a fight against someone stronger than Vermoud with just his CSSB and not-KK? It's not like the true strength of the GoDs is a mystery to him after the exhibition match.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:03 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:16 pm
I think we really have to agree to disagree.

But I just wanted to say that rivaling doesn't mean being on the same level (exhibition match is a proof), and Merged Zamasu (FP) was clearly below Vegetto and Supressed Jiren
Rivaling does mean they are on the same tier/level, just that their powers are not equal.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:37 am

Miracles wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:39 pm
Does that say 8800 or 8600 for BlueKK?
It says 8,800.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:27 pm

So what is your take on Corrupted Zamasu's stamina?

Was it dropping or not?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:34 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:27 pm
So what is your take on Corrupted Zamasu's stamina?

Was it dropping or not?
I will say no. Black never showed a power decrease over any of his fights and Zamasu, being immortal, didn't put as much effort as Black. He took attacks head on, on purpose. I don't want to mean that he was strong enough to do so, but he just boasted a lot about his immortality.

Merged Zamasu in his corrupted form was more than a match for our heroes. So no need to go all out there. But then Vegito came and he had to push him back. Which is also why he became a giant too. To increase his strength. Now if he increased his overall power and Blue Vegito was still faster, or if he increased strength for speed is up to question.

When they defused, he showed no signs of fatigue. If anything, his power was only increasing until he reached a certain point, or a peak, when he started to stay equal. That was around the end of his fight with Vegito.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:37 pm

I'm new to this thread so I have a statement and we can expand upon it if you'd like but I believe Jiren in both the manga & anime continuities is stronger or at least above Beerus when he's in his base form and not 60 or 80% (Super Full Power Jiren is at Beerus' 100%)

what do you think?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:52 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:37 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:39 pm
Does that say 8800 or 8600 for BlueKK?
It says 8,800.
Thanks.
Noitsnothim wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:37 pm
I'm new to this thread so I have a statement and we can expand upon it if you'd like but I believe Jiren in both the manga & anime continuities is stronger or at least above Beerus when he's in his base form and not 60 or 80% (Super Full Power Jiren is at Beerus' 100%)

what do you think?
Jiren isn't stronger than Beerus when Goku tried to compare the stronger Broly to Beerus.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:52 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:37 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:39 pm
Does that say 8800 or 8600 for BlueKK?
It says 8,800.
Thanks.
Noitsnothim wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:37 pm
I'm new to this thread so I have a statement and we can expand upon it if you'd like but I believe Jiren in both the manga & anime continuities is stronger or at least above Beerus when he's in his base form and not 60 or 80% (Super Full Power Jiren is at Beerus' 100%)

what do you think?
Jiren isn't stronger than Beerus when Goku tried to compare the stronger Broly to Beerus.
Yes he is

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:38 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:03 am

Rivaling does mean they are on the same tier/level, just that their powers are not equal.
Zamasu may rival Vegetto and still be several times weaker than him (SSB was often said to rival GoDs in anime and manga, but we see that the real difference in power was big). I don't think it means much. But yes, I would also say that MZ is in this same tier

--------

Just some randons thoughts that intrigue me:

- Is ToP Genkidama really one of the most inconsistent things in DBS? I don't remember if anyone explained this, but I don't know how the energy of 8 people can make the technique a trump card against Jiren, even above SSB KK x20.

- How is GoD Toppo compared to other GoDs? Does he have a chance to beat any of them? Vermouth said he was no different from a GoD and his only weakness seemed to be the time it took for Hakai to charge (something that seems more related to his experience in that form). Is he probably weaker than Beerus, but perhaps stronger than Sidra? Definitely in the same tier of them

- Still on Toppo, can his Hakai against Freeza be considered one of the greatest feats in ToP? Basically, it distorted the entire world of void space (said as infinite by Daishinkan) and changed it color (I saw some people saying it was dimensional level), and broke the whole arena into pieces, something that not even Genkidama did

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:47 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:38 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:03 am

Rivaling does mean they are on the same tier/level, just that their powers are not equal.
Zamasu may rival Vegetto and still be several times weaker than him (SSB was often said to rival GoDs in anime and manga, but we see that the real difference in power was big). I don't think it means much. But yes, I would also say that MZ is in this same tier

--------

Just some randons thoughts that intrigue me:

- Is ToP Genkidama really one of the most inconsistent things in DBS? I don't remember if anyone explained this, but I don't know how the energy of 8 people can make the technique a trump card against Jiren, even above SSB KK x20.

- How is GoD Toppo compared to other GoDs? Does he have a chance to beat any of them? Vermouth said he was no different from a GoD and his only weakness seemed to be the time it took for Hakai to charge (something that seems more related to his experience in that form). Is he probably weaker than Beerus, but perhaps stronger than Sidra? Definitely in the same tier of them

- Still on Toppo, can his Hakai against Freeza be considered one of the greatest feats in ToP? Basically, it distorted the entire world of void space (said as infinite by Daishinkan) and changed it color (I saw some people saying it was dimensional level), and broke the whole arena into pieces, something that not even Genkidama did
Yeah, I just can't agree with that. If he's multiple times weaker then he's not rivaling. No way.

Yes. That Genkidama is weird.

No. I don't think he can beat any of the GoD's. I wouldn't even put him at 6 to Beerus' 10. Still on the same tier though.

I think you are giving too much thought into those feats. I doubt the writers cared that much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:54 pm


- How is GoD Toppo compared to other GoDs? Does he have a chance to beat any of them? Vermouth said he was no different from a GoD and his only weakness seemed to be the time it took for Hakai to charge (something that seems more related to his experience in that form). Is he probably weaker than Beerus, but perhaps stronger than Sidra? Definitely in the same tier of them
I don't think so. Vermouth described him as no different from a GoD and he was right. By all intents and purposes he IS a GoD, energy of destruction and all, together with a power boost big enough to overpower SSBE Vegeta initially. The thing is, that Vegeta was compared to 20xKK Blue Goku very consistently up until that point, and that Goku, even after getting stronger, was no match against a Jiren far from full power.

So imo, GoD Toppo never felt as overwhelmingly powerful as Jiren, who was at the least on the very region of power as the other GoDs, whom we know are generally on par with each other. I'd put him on the same level as SSj2 Kefla or between her SSj and SSj2 forms. Bordering on the low level of the GoDs, but still not that powerful (and imo, justly so, since he has only now awakaned to the state, having no experience or training with that kind of power).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:14 pm

Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction. Nothing implies that he's weaker than any of them. Charging up the Hakai energy isn't stated to be a weakness specific to him. It's a drawback to the energy itself. We see him charging Hakai orbs no differently than what Sidra did and there's no implied difference.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:13 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:38 pm
Still on Toppo, can his Hakai against Freeza be considered one of the greatest feats in ToP? Basically, it distorted the entire world of void space (said as infinite by Daishinkan) and changed it color (I saw some people saying it was dimensional level), and broke the whole arena into pieces, something that not even Genkidama did.
Genkidama was partly absorbed by Goku when it exploded on his face. I think Toppo’s hakai rivals that energy.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:47 pm

Yeah, I just can't agree with that. If he's multiple times weaker then he's not rivaling. No way.
Just to clarify, I don't think MZ is several times weaker than Vegetto, it was just an example showing that one character can rival the other and still be much weaker. However, Vegetto is definitely stronger by a considerable margin of difference.
Thani wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:54 pm

I don't think so. Vermouth described him as no different from a GoD and he was right. By all intents and purposes he IS a GoD, energy of destruction and all, together with a power boost big enough to overpower SSBE Vegeta initially. The thing is, that Vegeta was compared to 20xKK Blue Goku very consistently up until that point, and that Goku, even after getting stronger, was no match against a Jiren far from full power.

So imo, GoD Toppo never felt as overwhelmingly powerful as Jiren, who was at the least on the very region of power as the other GoDs, whom we know are generally on par with each other. I'd put him on the same level as SSj2 Kefla or between her SSj and SSj2 forms. Bordering on the low level of the GoDs, but still not that powerful (and imo, justly so, since he has only now awakaned to the state, having no experience or training with that kind of power).
Makes sense. But I think what ''supersaiyangodgogeta'' said also does. Vermouth didn't seem to imply that Toppo was below other GoDs in terms of power (at least he didn't specify that), he seemed to want to emphasize that Toppo was in fact no different from a GoD in any respect (not even the gods said that he was weaker or something). But I agree with you that it is definitely not high on the tier, considering that Toppo is much weaker than UI Omen Goku (128) who seemed to be just on the same level as the stronger GoDs. Despite Vermouth's talk, Toppo didn't show enough to put him there.

But that said, what would your current scale of strength be?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:41 pm
Thani wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:54 pm

I don't think so. Vermouth described him as no different from a GoD and he was right. By all intents and purposes he IS a GoD, energy of destruction and all, together with a power boost big enough to overpower SSBE Vegeta initially. The thing is, that Vegeta was compared to 20xKK Blue Goku very consistently up until that point, and that Goku, even after getting stronger, was no match against a Jiren far from full power.

So imo, GoD Toppo never felt as overwhelmingly powerful as Jiren, who was at the least on the very region of power as the other GoDs, whom we know are generally on par with each other. I'd put him on the same level as SSj2 Kefla or between her SSj and SSj2 forms. Bordering on the low level of the GoDs, but still not that powerful (and imo, justly so, since he has only now awakaned to the state, having no experience or training with that kind of power).
Makes sense. But I think what ''supersaiyangodgogeta'' said also does. Vermouth didn't seem to imply that Toppo was below other GoDs in terms of power (at least he didn't specify that), he seemed to want to emphasize that Toppo was in fact no different from a GoD in any respect (not even the gods said that he was weaker or something). But I agree with you that it is definitely not high on the tier, considering that Toppo is much weaker than UI Omen Goku (128) who seemed to be just on the same level as the stronger GoDs. Despite Vermouth's talk, Toppo didn't show enough to put him there.

But that said, what would your current scale of strength be?
Okay so, that's really tricky. Mostly because Super's scaling is bonkers and hard to gauge. In any case, I would separate our known levels of power into "tiers" for simplicity sake. Tiers doesn't really work with DB, so it's not completely accurate, but a rough estimate. Also, definitely going more by what I perceived than what the anime or supplementary materials tried to hype. And it's no way a "who can beat who" scale, I'm only thinking of raw power. So I would go like this:


(Known) Ceiling of Power: Basically the top 5 most powerful beings in the Multiverse.

0. Zen'O: Well, so far, nothing comes close to Zen'O, so it's meaningless to rank him.
1. Grand Priest: According to the manga, he's top dog, and it fits, so I'll put him here.
2-5. Unknown, but definitely above your average angel (perhaps the top angels are here, who knows)


Angel tier: Impossible to gauge since they never fight. I will number them from 6 to 17 however, since they are 12. Some of them could very well be on the above tier, but, for simplicity sake, let's put them all here for now.


God of Destruction+ tier: self explanatory, really. It's where our oddballs rest, being above the GoDs as stated but not confirmed being a match to angels. SSB Gogeta, MUI Goku, Shirtless Jiren, and SSFP Broly are here.

18. Shirtless Jiren: So, I am actually of the opinion that, in raw power, Jiren was superior to Goku. He almost never landed a hit, true, but whenever they faced in a contest of power, Jiren always came on top. "Perhaps even surpassed it", like Whis guessed, Jiren proved he surpassed the state of God of Destruction.
19. (Current) SSB Gogeta/Vegito: Usually I don't mind the idea that MUI > Fusions, but, I also lean to the concept that UI's greatest asset is not raw power, but mastery of movement. Besides, he completely crushed SSFP Broly, so his placement must be higher in the list. IF you're feeling generous, you can swap Gogeta with Jiren.
20. MUI Goku: Considering how he was trashing Jiren (with shirt on) rather easily, I'll have to concede that MUI Goku is at least above what is considered the "normal ceiling" of a God of Destruction. His greatest asset, however, is that he's ridiculously hard to hit while capable of landing REALLY hard blows. He's less a force of nature like Jiren and Broly and more of a lightning bruiser kung-fu wizard.
21. SSFP Broly: "Probably stronger" than Beerus, and hyped to be above a GoD at least in destructive capability. He didn't REALLY showed that in the movie, imo, but then again, neither did any of the above, really. As a compromise, I'll put him here, close enough to Beerus that Goku's guess isn't that wild.


God of Destruction tier: Obviously, GoD's are placed here, together with the rare mortals that managed to rival them in power. Naturally, there is NO WAY to rank them properly, the best we know is that they are on a rough equal footing to one another. The best we can do is extrapolate that Beerus/Quitela/Vermouth are amongst the strongest and that Sidra is amongst the weakest, but there is no true confirmation.

22. Jiren (with shirt on): So. That may be a liiiitle polemic, but here's where I would place Jiren as before he became buff and shirtless, where he went all serious against UIO Goku at the last leg of the tournament. "I dare say, like a God of Destruction. He is one who reached that state", Whis said, and it's easy to see why. He pretty much reigned supreme in the ToP, overshadowing in power people like Kefla, GoD Toppo, SSBE Vegeta and, initially, even third UIO Goku, all of them extremely powerful individuals. I put him here because, even at this state, his power is definitely on the level of a God of Destruction. Perhaps he's weaker than Beerus and Quitela, perhaps Vermouth is the weakest GoD, but anyway - if Vermouth is top tier, then Jiren is there as well, at least in a position higher than him.
23-28. The six Gods of Destruction ranking amongst the top half in power. No idea who could they be, but if you want to, you can place Beerus, Quitela and Vermouth here. PS: I would place third UIO Goku here, together with these GoD's. He was absolutely capable of fighting Jiren as almost an equal, only really losing when in a direct power struggle (like his Kamehameha being completely countered by Jiren's Power Impact). It fits with Jiren being stronger than Vermouth, if you consider him one of the top GoD's - they can fight him all right, but have less sheer power than him.
29-33. The five Gods of Destruction in the bottom, having less power than the other top six. Again, no way to know who they are exactly. I would, personally, also include SSB Vegito (FT Arc) here. There is no proof that he belongs in this level of power, BUT, I also believe that Goku and Vegeta didn't get THAT much stronger in their SSB forms. So, yeah.
34. Sidra. Poor Sidra. I still believe in you, buddy.
35. Merged Zamasu: Yeah, I know, it's weird. He's definitely not here in the manga, since he's only as strong as CSSB Goku/Vegeta, but he's a lot stronger in the anime. A lot. I admit, I AM highballing him a lot here, and by extension SSB Vegito, but they need to be relative to one another. If that Vegito is GoD level, then so is M. Zamasu. I am, however, willing to put him below Sidra. For reference, I am taking M. Zamasu's full power as his corrupted state that fought Vegito Blue. I am NOT, however, opening the can of worms that is Infinite Zamasu.
36. SSBE Vegeta ("pride boost"): I am placing this Vegeta here because, like it or not, his Final Explosion completely overwhelmed GoD Toppo's full power "hakai".
37 a. SSj2 Kefla: Well, I AM tempted to put her on the "Beyond SSB" tier, but her raw power is the real deal. So powerful, in fact, that she could kill second UIO Goku if she could actually hit him in her lifetime.
37 b. GoD Toppo: As I said before, I would estimate he would be either SSj2 Kefla's equal or inbetween her SSj and SSj2 form. For this list, I'll go with the "equal" route. He was smacking SSBE Vegeta around before his pride boost.
38. Second UIO Goku: His power was pretty much comparable to Kefla's as SSj2, so it stands to reason that they would be next to each other. Since she COULD kill him with her blasts if she connected, meanwhile she actually survived Goku's kamehameha, I'll put him under her in raw power.


Beyond Super Saiyan Blue tier: Well, we have no way to gauge a fair tier for characters beyond the regular/current SSB state, so I'm using the transformation as a point of reference here. This tier is for every individual explicitly stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, but that is not on the level of a God of Destruction. For reference, SSB+KK(from 2 to 20) is placed here, together with SSBE Vegeta.

39. Jiren (suppressed): Obviously. Even when barely trying he was already the top dog of the tournament. To me, this is the Jiren that fought first UIO and then SSBE Vegeta and SSB+KK20x Goku simultaneously. He did flare a ki here and there, but mostly it didn't felt that different. Like, his suppressed definition of "barely trying" and "trying".
40. First UIO Goku: He did close the gap between him and Jiren, and I am willing to argue that at no point Goku surpassed this level at just SSB.
41 a. SSj Kefla: This form of Kefla rivaled the sheer power of U7's Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama at her peak. That alone puts her above even SSB+KKx20 Goku, and by extension SSBE Vegeta.
41 b. SSj Broly: Yup, I'm putting Broly as his weird SSj form as an equal to Kefla. For that to work I have to address that, in the movie, Goku and Vegeta's SSB was NOT, in my eyes, supposed to be the same thing as their anime/manga "final forms". It would be weird, to me, that their SSB forms became TENS OF TIMES more powerful that fast. Stronger, yes, but not THAT stronger. And SSj Broly was smacking them around with almost as much ease as Jiren was, but he couldn't beat the Golden out of Freeza in a whole hour, while Jiren did it in a second.
42. Anliaza: Ok, so, hear me out. Anilaza in the anime was powerful enough to engage the entire U7 team in a beam-o-war and actually show signs of winning. That was SSB Goku and Vegeta, (True) Golden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan, and Android 17. That's a lot going on for him. Granted, Goku didn't use kaioken and Vegeta wasn't Evolution yet. But I think the intention of the writers was to picture Anliaza as a huge obstacle. And they did, he was really impressive. If necessary, swap him with Goku and Vegeta below.
43. SSBE Vegeta and SSB+KKx20 Goku: That's really not surprising. Both these states are more powerful than SSB alone, and put them on an entirely different level from before.
44. SSB+KKx10 Goku: Well, with no shown usage of other levels of kaioken, the next lower step would be the x10. Not much to say about this. I am not, however, putting regular kaioken here, since it really doesn't matter as it was not really used.
45. Merged Zamasu: I wouldn't normally do this, but everyone kind of accepts that M. Zamasu has two forms. His initial appearance, with the Halo, and his Corrupted state. I frankly am of the opinion that M. Za masu always had that full power from his Corrupted state, and was merely not taking Goku, Vegeta and Trunks seriously the whole time (with progressingly greater consequences). But, even then, he was still much too powerful for Goku and Vegeta alone. Even with the Kaioken, Goku only kicked him into the ground for a moment.



Super Saiyan Blue tier: Mostly inhabited by people capable of challenging SSB Goku and Vegeta, it's very easy to understand.

46 a. SSjR Goku Black: Despite being just his SSB equivalent, I do believe Rosé Black got really close to surpassing the state in the last leg of his arc, before fusing with Zamasu, after pulling that scythe out of his ass hand. He managed to overcome Vegeta, who was wrecking his shit beforehand, even if through applications of clones. At that point, he seemed confident he couldn't lose.
46 b. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta: Not much to say here. At the end of the ToP, they are pretty much at the top of what we know as this tier. Which is to say, on the same level of the "strongest non-fused, non-GoD character" so far that was Black.
46 c. True Golden Freeza On the same level, I have to include Freeza in his "true" golden form. Both him and Goku managed to OHKO one another, so it's really a no-brainer. I am merely assuming that he managed to catch up to the saiyans' gains after the ToP, though.
46 d. Toppo: He was extremely powerful, and perfectly able to tangle with Goku and Vegeta. By that virtue alone, and because his only power up sent him straight to GoD territory, I'll put him here.
47. Ikari Broly: This is where I would personally put Ikari Broly at his full power, since he was slowly losing his fight against SSB Goku.
48. Hit: I actually think that Hit is a step below the SSB's in terms of sheer power. He more than compensates this with his hundreds of years of experience, his talent at adapting to his situations and his Time Skip. Still, on raw power alone he's kinda lacking compared to the others. Except in the manga, there he became a beast.
49 a. Ultimate Gohan: Weird reach, but it's the anime's fault. And because he's here, so is...
49 b. Android 17: For the record, I do think that both him and Gohan are below even the SSB Goku and Vegeta from the RoF movie.
50. Dyspo: Dyspo's main deal was his speed, which with he was actually able to put the hurt on Golden Freeza. He isn't terribly powerful, however, and actually can't trade punches with Gohan. He does compensates with his Ultra Maximum Light Speed Mode, but outside of that, his power alone perhaps shouldn't even be on the Blue spectrum. I'm putting him here mostly because of his speed mode. More of an honorable mention.



I think I made the post big enough as it is, and it's really meaningless nowadays to list SSG and below. So for now, I'll leave this highly unlikely to be accurate power scale list and leave you all to completely tear apart my reasoning if you so desire. I am by no means a expert at power scaling, and definitely don't think that hard about the characters placements as per handbooks, guides, marketing and the odd lines in the anime/manga. So I could be dead wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:53 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:41 pm
Thani wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:54 pm

I don't think so. Vermouth described him as no different from a GoD and he was right. By all intents and purposes he IS a GoD, energy of destruction and all, together with a power boost big enough to overpower SSBE Vegeta initially. The thing is, that Vegeta was compared to 20xKK Blue Goku very consistently up until that point, and that Goku, even after getting stronger, was no match against a Jiren far from full power.

So imo, GoD Toppo never felt as overwhelmingly powerful as Jiren, who was at the least on the very region of power as the other GoDs, whom we know are generally on par with each other. I'd put him on the same level as SSj2 Kefla or between her SSj and SSj2 forms. Bordering on the low level of the GoDs, but still not that powerful (and imo, justly so, since he has only now awakaned to the state, having no experience or training with that kind of power).
Makes sense. But I think what ''supersaiyangodgogeta'' said also does. Vermouth didn't seem to imply that Toppo was below other GoDs in terms of power (at least he didn't specify that), he seemed to want to emphasize that Toppo was in fact no different from a GoD in any respect (not even the gods said that he was weaker or something). But I agree with you that it is definitely not high on the tier, considering that Toppo is much weaker than UI Omen Goku (128) who seemed to be just on the same level as the stronger GoDs. Despite Vermouth's talk, Toppo didn't show enough to put him there.

But that said, what would your current scale of strength be?
Okay so, that's really tricky. Mostly because Super's scaling is bonkers and hard to gauge. In any case, I would separate our known levels of power into "tiers" for simplicity sake. Tiers doesn't really work with DB, so it's not completely accurate, but a rough estimate. Also, definitely going more by what I perceived than what the anime or supplementary materials tried to hype. And it's no way a "who can beat who" scale, I'm only thinking of raw power. So I would go like this:


(Known) Ceiling of Power: Basically the top 5 most powerful beings in the Multiverse.

0. Zen'O: Well, so far, nothing comes close to Zen'O, so it's meaningless to rank him.
1. Grand Priest: According to the manga, he's top dog, and it fits, so I'll put him here.
2-5. Unknown, but definitely above your average angel (perhaps the top angels are here, who knows)


Angel tier: Impossible to gauge since they never fight. I will number them from 6 to 17 however, since they are 12. Some of them could very well be on the above tier, but, for simplicity sake, let's put them all here for now.


God of Destruction+ tier: self explanatory, really. It's where our oddballs rest, being above the GoDs as stated but not confirmed being a match to angels. SSB Gogeta, MUI Goku, Shirtless Jiren, and SSFP Broly are here.

18. Shirtless Jiren: So, I am actually of the opinion that, in raw power, Jiren was superior to Goku. He almost never landed a hit, true, but whenever they faced in a contest of power, Jiren always came on top. "Perhaps even surpassed it", like Whis guessed, Jiren proved he surpassed the state of God of Destruction.
19. (Current) SSB Gogeta/Vegito: Usually I don't mind the idea that MUI > Fusions, but, I also lean to the concept that UI's greatest asset is not raw power, but mastery of movement. Besides, he completely crushed SSFP Broly, so his placement must be higher in the list. IF you're feeling generous, you can swap Gogeta with Jiren.
20. MUI Goku: Considering how he was trashing Jiren (with shirt on) rather easily, I'll have to concede that MUI Goku is at least above what is considered the "normal ceiling" of a God of Destruction. His greatest asset, however, is that he's ridiculously hard to hit while capable of landing REALLY hard blows. He's less a force of nature like Jiren and Broly and more of a lightning bruiser kung-fu wizard.
21. SSFP Broly: "Probably stronger" than Beerus, and hyped to be above a GoD at least in destructive capability. He didn't REALLY showed that in the movie, imo, but then again, neither did any of the above, really. As a compromise, I'll put him here, close enough to Beerus that Goku's guess isn't that wild.


God of Destruction tier: Obviously, GoD's are placed here, together with the rare mortals that managed to rival them in power. Naturally, there is NO WAY to rank them properly, the best we know is that they are on a rough equal footing to one another. The best we can do is extrapolate that Beerus/Quitela/Vermouth are amongst the strongest and that Sidra is amongst the weakest, but there is no true confirmation.

22. Jiren (with shirt on): So. That may be a liiiitle polemic, but here's where I would place Jiren as before he became buff and shirtless, where he went all serious against UIO Goku at the last leg of the tournament. "I dare say, like a God of Destruction. He is one who reached that state", Whis said, and it's easy to see why. He pretty much reigned supreme in the ToP, overshadowing in power people like Kefla, GoD Toppo, SSBE Vegeta and, initially, even third UIO Goku, all of them extremely powerful individuals. I put him here because, even at this state, his power is definitely on the level of a God of Destruction. Perhaps he's weaker than Beerus and Quitela, perhaps Vermouth is the weakest GoD, but anyway - if Vermouth is top tier, then Jiren is there as well, at least in a position higher than him.
23-28. The six Gods of Destruction ranking amongst the top half in power. No idea who could they be, but if you want to, you can place Beerus, Quitela and Vermouth here. PS: I would place third UIO Goku here, together with these GoD's. He was absolutely capable of fighting Jiren as almost an equal, only really losing when in a direct power struggle (like his Kamehameha being completely countered by Jiren's Power Impact). It fits with Jiren being stronger than Vermouth, if you consider him one of the top GoD's - they can fight him all right, but have less sheer power than him.
29-33. The five Gods of Destruction in the bottom, having less power than the other top six. Again, no way to know who they are exactly. I would, personally, also include SSB Vegito (FT Arc) here. There is no proof that he belongs in this level of power, BUT, I also believe that Goku and Vegeta didn't get THAT much stronger in their SSB forms. So, yeah.
34. Sidra. Poor Sidra. I still believe in you, buddy.
35. Merged Zamasu: Yeah, I know, it's weird. He's definitely not here in the manga, since he's only as strong as CSSB Goku/Vegeta, but he's a lot stronger in the anime. A lot. I admit, I AM highballing him a lot here, and by extension SSB Vegito, but they need to be relative to one another. If that Vegito is GoD level, then so is M. Zamasu. I am, however, willing to put him below Sidra. For reference, I am taking M. Zamasu's full power as his corrupted state that fought Vegito Blue. I am NOT, however, opening the can of worms that is Infinite Zamasu.
36. SSBE Vegeta ("pride boost"): I am placing this Vegeta here because, like it or not, his Final Explosion completely overwhelmed GoD Toppo's full power "hakai".
37 a. SSj2 Kefla: Well, I AM tempted to put her on the "Beyond SSB" tier, but her raw power is the real deal. So powerful, in fact, that she could kill second UIO Goku if she could actually hit him in her lifetime.
37 b. GoD Toppo: As I said before, I would estimate he would be either SSj2 Kefla's equal or inbetween her SSj and SSj2 form. For this list, I'll go with the "equal" route. He was smacking SSBE Vegeta around before his pride boost.
38. Second UIO Goku: His power was pretty much comparable to Kefla's as SSj2, so it stands to reason that they would be next to each other. Since she COULD kill him with her blasts if she connected, meanwhile she actually survived Goku's kamehameha, I'll put him under her in raw power.


Beyond Super Saiyan Blue tier: Well, we have no way to gauge a fair tier for characters beyond the regular/current SSB state, so I'm using the transformation as a point of reference here. This tier is for every individual explicitly stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, but that is not on the level of a God of Destruction. For reference, SSB+KK(from 2 to 20) is placed here, together with SSBE Vegeta.

39. Jiren (suppressed): Obviously. Even when barely trying he was already the top dog of the tournament. To me, this is the Jiren that fought first UIO and then SSBE Vegeta and SSB+KK20x Goku simultaneously. He did flare a ki here and there, but mostly it didn't felt that different. Like, his suppressed definition of "barely trying" and "trying".
40. First UIO Goku: He did close the gap between him and Jiren, and I am willing to argue that at no point Goku surpassed this level at just SSB.
41 a. SSj Kefla: This form of Kefla rivaled the sheer power of U7's Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama at her peak. That alone puts her above even SSB+KKx20 Goku, and by extension SSBE Vegeta.
41 b. SSj Broly: Yup, I'm putting Broly as his weird SSj form as an equal to Kefla. For that to work I have to address that, in the movie, Goku and Vegeta's SSB was NOT, in my eyes, supposed to be the same thing as their anime/manga "final forms". It would be weird, to me, that their SSB forms became TENS OF TIMES more powerful that fast. Stronger, yes, but not THAT stronger. And SSj Broly was smacking them around with almost as much ease as Jiren was, but he couldn't beat the Golden out of Freeza in a whole hour, while Jiren did it in a second.
42. Anliaza: Ok, so, hear me out. Anilaza in the anime was powerful enough to engage the entire U7 team in a beam-o-war and actually show signs of winning. That was SSB Goku and Vegeta, (True) Golden Freeza, Ultimate Gohan, and Android 17. That's a lot going on for him. Granted, Goku didn't use kaioken and Vegeta wasn't Evolution yet. But I think the intention of the writers was to picture Anliaza as a huge obstacle. And they did, he was really impressive. If necessary, swap him with Goku and Vegeta below.
43. SSBE Vegeta and SSB+KKx20 Goku: That's really not surprising. Both these states are more powerful than SSB alone, and put them on an entirely different level from before.
44. SSB+KKx10 Goku: Well, with no shown usage of other levels of kaioken, the next lower step would be the x10. Not much to say about this. I am not, however, putting regular kaioken here, since it really doesn't matter as it was not really used.
45. Merged Zamasu: I wouldn't normally do this, but everyone kind of accepts that M. Zamasu has two forms. His initial appearance, with the Halo, and his Corrupted state. I frankly am of the opinion that M. Za masu always had that full power from his Corrupted state, and was merely not taking Goku, Vegeta and Trunks seriously the whole time (with progressingly greater consequences). But, even then, he was still much too powerful for Goku and Vegeta alone. Even with the Kaioken, Goku only kicked him into the ground for a moment.



Super Saiyan Blue tier: Mostly inhabited by people capable of challenging SSB Goku and Vegeta, it's very easy to understand.

46 a. SSjR Goku Black: Despite being just his SSB equivalent, I do believe Rosé Black got really close to surpassing the state in the last leg of his arc, before fusing with Zamasu, after pulling that scythe out of his ass hand. He managed to overcome Vegeta, who was wrecking his shit beforehand, even if through applications of clones. At that point, he seemed confident he couldn't lose.
46 b. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta: Not much to say here. At the end of the ToP, they are pretty much at the top of what we know as this tier. Which is to say, on the same level of the "strongest non-fused, non-GoD character" so far that was Black.
46 c. True Golden Freeza On the same level, I have to include Freeza in his "true" golden form. Both him and Goku managed to OHKO one another, so it's really a no-brainer. I am merely assuming that he managed to catch up to the saiyans' gains after the ToP, though.
46 d. Toppo: He was extremely powerful, and perfectly able to tangle with Goku and Vegeta. By that virtue alone, and because his only power up sent him straight to GoD territory, I'll put him here.
47. Ikari Broly: This is where I would personally put Ikari Broly at his full power, since he was slowly losing his fight against SSB Goku.
48. Hit: I actually think that Hit is a step below the SSB's in terms of sheer power. He more than compensates this with his hundreds of years of experience, his talent at adapting to his situations and his Time Skip. Still, on raw power alone he's kinda lacking compared to the others. Except in the manga, there he became a beast.
49 a. Ultimate Gohan: Weird reach, but it's the anime's fault. And because he's here, so is...
49 b. Android 17: For the record, I do think that both him and Gohan are below even the SSB Goku and Vegeta from the RoF movie.
50. Dyspo: Dyspo's main deal was his speed, which with he was actually able to put the hurt on Golden Freeza. He isn't terribly powerful, however, and actually can't trade punches with Gohan. He does compensates with his Ultra Maximum Light Speed Mode, but outside of that, his power alone perhaps shouldn't even be on the Blue spectrum. I'm putting him here mostly because of his speed mode. More of an honorable mention.



I think I made the post big enough as it is, and it's really meaningless nowadays to list SSG and below. So for now, I'll leave this highly unlikely to be accurate power scale list and leave you all to completely tear apart my reasoning if you so desire. I am by no means a expert at power scaling, and definitely don't think that hard about the characters placements as per handbooks, guides, marketing and the odd lines in the anime/manga. So I could be dead wrong.
I pretty much agree with the whole list. I might place Hakaishin Toppo and nakama boost SSBE Vegeta right below Sidra, but it still works for me as it is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:54 am

Thani wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm
List.
Very good tier list but I do have some thoughts:

- Having LB Jiren > MUI Goku sure is an interesting take. I will have to watch the fight again now.

- I personally have GoD Toppo > SS2 Kefla. I'm pretty sure a waffle sticker had him higher haha.

- How strong do you have base Gogeta? Because I don't think SS Broly can be equal to SS Kefla if base Gogeta is Blue tier. I just couldn't make that work with numbers at all... And I tried a lot.

- I don't think Merged Zamasu had that corrupted power the whole time. His dialogue before hitting himself to grow his arm implies he didn't.

- I wouldn't but SSR Black over current SSB Goku|Vegeta, Golden Freeza or Toppo. He's very close to them though.

- I wouldn't put Gohan that low. I would put him with the FT arc SSB's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:13 am

Scythe Goku Black is another can of worms like Infinite Zamasu to be honest. He claims that his power had surpassed even his own divine understanding, and I believe him. He probably would have won if he did not fuse with Zamasu. But it's impossible to know for certain how much more powerful he became. That being said he tore open a rift in reality, that is an incredible feat that implies a very huge power boost.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 am

Thani wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm
List
Given how you ranked all these individuals based on pure strength alone, I think I can agree with most points. I just don't think that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, despite her killing intent on 2nd UIO Goku, would be capable of defeating GoD Toppo in raw power. Because she would actually be stronger than a God of Destruction. I mean, it wouldn't really make sense to hype Toppo and his new power, but placing him under the previous major enemy.

I actually think that one of the ideas in the ToP was to follow a Z Movies logic. That being that each consecutive major enemy would be stronger than the last. Given how with this scaling, Janemba was above Hirudegarn, imma say that Jiren is our "Janemba".

That means, imo, that in the ToP the second greatest threat after Jiren was GoD Toppo.

(which is also why it is practically impossible for me to accept that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in Base in the whole tournament. Do we really need a statement to understand something as evident as this?)
P O W E R

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am

Thani wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm

List
Great list and very detailed, I just disagree with some things

- I would put ToP SSB Goku / Vegeta above Black by a good margin considering how much they improved during ToP. Black may have surpassed both with the scythe in the FT arc, but I don't see how he would handle the two Saiyans after the tournament

- Despite the difference in raw power, I think I would put Dyspo over Freeza and Gohan with his strongest technique, but I understand why you put him below

- Due to all the dialogues during the ToP (Supressed Jiren being stronger than SSJ2 Kefla and Vegeta and Toppo exceeding this level) I would put GoD Toppo over SSJ2 Kefla and Zamasu (as well as SSBE Vegeta)

- I have SSJ Broly probably above SSJ2 Kefla, but that's debatable

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