Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:18 am

That's a list that I mostly agree with.

Maybe move some characters around, such as including a "SSG tier", including base Fusions where they equal the likes of SSB and whatnot, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:47 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am
Universal Spirit Bomb ≈ Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110) = Ikari/Wrathful Broly (Full Power) <= Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla) = SSJ Kefla ≈ Blue Goku(End of ToP) ≈ Blue Vegeta (End of ToP) ≈ True Golden Freeza (Broly arc, post potential training) < Blue Vegeta (FF) ≈ Merged Zamasu (peak) < Vegito Blue (FT arc) < 1st Omen ≈ Supressed Jiren < SSJ2 Kefla ≈ SSJ Broly < 2nd Omen <= Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP) < GoD Toppo <= FP SSJ Broly < Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP) < Blue Evolution Vegeta (Maximum Power) < 3rd Omen = Full Power/100% Jiren < Limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren < MUI (Rage Boost) ≈ Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

Here I made some changes to the list. Of course this list is not based on power alone, but skill as well. Although in the cases when power is vastly superior, it can overtake skill.

Anyway, I placed end of ToP levels for our heroes to give a sense of scale for the fights with Broly. Post ToP means Broly arc too. Nothing contradicts that.

-Anyway, the list is as we initially made it to be, but I just added Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta from the end of ToP (according to me they got 20 times stronger) and I threw in between Goku's KK levels from the end of ToP to give off a sense of scale.

-True Golden Freeza didn't experience nearly the same boost in power, but as he was seemingly equal to the Saiyan duo by the Broly arc, I assume that he did train, as Vegeta implied in the beginning of the movie. This placed him in the same league as Post ToP Saiyans. I also think that after the movie no one but Broly, got stronger.

-SSJ2 Kefla is imo equal to SSJ Broly. When I compare Broly to her, I see Post-ToP Goku Blue KK×5 being a good match for him in said form, which according to the way Goku got stronger, would translate into a KK×10 Blue Goku from that point. Of course end of ToP Blue Goku KK×10 is placed above him. The difference here :

SSJ2 Kefla≈SSJ Broly<2nd Omen<=Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP)<GoD Toppo<=FP SSJ Broly<Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP)

From SSJ2 Kefla or SSJ Broly, to FP SSJ Broly is nearly a 2 times increase in power. So Toppo can most certainly be roughly 2 times stronger than 2nd Omen, and that's a highball. Still, FP SSJ Broly is superior due to the statements of GoDs being at his level and of course due to power scaling.

I am convinced that a KK×20 Blue Goku from the End of ToP could perhaps defeat GoD Mode Toppo, with some more difficulty than Vegeta.

-As for Blue Vegeta while performing the Final Flash, I think that it was a forced increase in his power output, due to his attack. Which is why I place his Post-ToP Blue level just below the Final Flash. Once he delivered it, he had to power up again to break his limits and achieve Blue Evolution. It was a temporary boost, which although increased some of his power.

-Lastly, I can see 3rd Omen being roughly 3× Blue Evolution Vegeta (Max power), which is also the greatest major gap in power from 2 subsequent individuals imo.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 am
Thani wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm
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Given how you ranked all these individuals based on pure strength alone, I think I can agree with most points. I just don't think that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, despite her killing intent on 2nd UIO Goku, would be capable of defeating GoD Toppo in raw power. Because she would actually be stronger than a God of Destruction. I mean, it wouldn't really make sense to hype Toppo and his new power, but placing him under the previous major enemy.

I actually think that one of the ideas in the ToP was to follow a Z Movies logic. That being that each consecutive major enemy would be stronger than the last. Given how with this scaling, Janemba was above Hirudegarn, imma say that Jiren is our "Janemba".

That means, imo, that in the ToP the second greatest threat after Jiren was GoD Toppo.

(which is also why it is practically impossible for me to accept that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in Base in the whole tournament. Do we really need a statement to understand something as evident as this?)
Yes, yes we do.

Especially when it's not evident at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:47 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am
Universal Spirit Bomb ≈ Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110) = Ikari/Wrathful Broly (Full Power) <= Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla) = SSJ Kefla ≈ Blue Goku(End of ToP) ≈ Blue Vegeta (End of ToP) ≈ True Golden Freeza (Broly arc, post potential training) < Blue Vegeta (FF) ≈ Merged Zamasu (peak) < Vegito Blue (FT arc) < 1st Omen ≈ Supressed Jiren < SSJ2 Kefla ≈ SSJ Broly < 2nd Omen <= Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP) < GoD Toppo <= FP SSJ Broly < Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP) < Blue Evolution Vegeta (Maximum Power) < 3rd Omen = Full Power/100% Jiren < Limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren < MUI (Rage Boost) ≈ Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

Here I made some changes to the list. Of course this list is not based on power alone, but skill as well. Although in the cases when power is vastly superior, it can overtake skill.

Anyway, I placed end of ToP levels for our heroes to give a sense of scale for the fights with Broly. Post ToP means Broly arc too. Nothing contradicts that.

-Anyway, the list is as we initially made it to be, but I just added Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta from the end of ToP (according to me they got 20 times stronger) and I threw in between Goku's KK levels from the end of ToP to give off a sense of scale.

-True Golden Freeza didn't experience nearly the same boost in power, but as he was seemingly equal to the Saiyan duo by the Broly arc, I assume that he did train, as Vegeta implied in the beginning of the movie. This placed him in the same league as Post ToP Saiyans. I also think that after the movie no one but Broly, got stronger.

-SSJ2 Kefla is imo equal to SSJ Broly. When I compare Broly to her, I see Post-ToP Goku Blue KK×5 being a good match for him in said form, which according to the way Goku got stronger, would translate into a KK×10 Blue Goku from that point. Of course end of ToP Blue Goku KK×10 is placed above him. The difference here :

SSJ2 Kefla≈SSJ Broly<2nd Omen<=Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP)<GoD Toppo<=FP SSJ Broly<Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP)

From SSJ2 Kefla or SSJ Broly, to FP SSJ Broly is nearly a 2 times increase in power. So Toppo can most certainly be roughly 2 times stronger than 2nd Omen, and that's a highball. Still, FP SSJ Broly is superior due to the statements of GoDs being at his level and of course due to power scaling.

I am convinced that a KK×20 Blue Goku from the End of ToP could perhaps defeat GoD Mode Toppo, with some more difficulty than Vegeta.

-As for Blue Vegeta while performing the Final Flash, I think that it was a forced increase in his power output, due to his attack. Which is why I place his Post-ToP Blue level just below the Final Flash. Once he delivered it, he had to power up again to break his limits and achieve Blue Evolution. It was a temporary boost, which although increased some of his power.

-Lastly, I can see 3rd Omen being roughly 3× Blue Evolution Vegeta (Max power), which is also the greatest major gap in power from 2 subsequent individuals imo.
A correction to my post.

Universal Spirit Bomb ≈ Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110) = Ikari/Wrathful Broly (Full Power) <= Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla) = SSJ Kefla ≈ Blue Goku (End of ToP) ≈ Blue Vegeta (End of ToP) ≈ True Golden Freeza (Broly arc, post potential training) < Blue Vegeta (FF) ≈ Merged Zamasu (peak) < Vegito Blue (FT arc) < 1st Omen ≈ Supressed Jiren < SSJ2 Kefla ≈ SSJ Broly <= Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP) < 2nd Omen < GoD Toppo <= FP SSJ Broly < Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP) < Blue Evolution Vegeta (Maximum Power) < 3rd Omen = Full Power/100% Jiren < Limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren < MUI (Rage Boost) ≈ Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

-Let me also state that Kefla's power as a SSJ2 was the standard times 2 increase on top of her SSJ, but it is possible that she powered up so much that she became even stronger. Which is why I place her roughly on the same level as Broly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:35 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 am
Thani wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:17 pm
List
Given how you ranked all these individuals based on pure strength alone, I think I can agree with most points. I just don't think that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, despite her killing intent on 2nd UIO Goku, would be capable of defeating GoD Toppo in raw power. Because she would actually be stronger than a God of Destruction. I mean, it wouldn't really make sense to hype Toppo and his new power, but placing him under the previous major enemy.

I actually think that one of the ideas in the ToP was to follow a Z Movies logic. That being that each consecutive major enemy would be stronger than the last. Given how with this scaling, Janemba was above Hirudegarn, imma say that Jiren is our "Janemba".

That means, imo, that in the ToP the second greatest threat after Jiren was GoD Toppo.

(which is also why it is practically impossible for me to accept that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in Base in the whole tournament. Do we really need a statement to understand something as evident as this?)
Yes, yes we do.

Especially when it's not evident at all.
I prefer to be wrong then. But....

Throwing all the Jiren talk and fights aside. How do you explain the fight between Kefla and Goku? Kefla as a Super Saiyan was challenging Blue Goku and forced him to use a regular Kaio Ken. Her power in siad form was rivaling the Universal Spirit Bomb from before, which level of destruction was nearly equal to that of Blue KK×20 Goku.

Yet he used a simple KK on her. And before anyone tells me that we don't know of the level of KAIO Ken used by him (similarly to the fight against Halo Form Merged Zamasu) tell me one time that Goku never explicitly shouted the level of KK that he used. Only against Hit didn't he say anything about times 3 and 4,respectively but it was because he reached the level that he wanted. TIMES TEEEEEEEEN. pretty sure it was a normal KK against a Kefla that rivaled a previously KK ×20 Blue equal Spirit Bomb.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:35 pm

Goku was explicitly using Kaioken-x20 against Jiren in their first fight when he used Kaioken, as Whis elaborates when Krillin brings up Goku surely being able to handle that level in SSB by now.

There's also no stated level against Merged Zamasu, nor against Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:04 pm

About Base Gogeta, I believe the fusion fan theory works here. He could be around SSB Goku but quicker, he did manage to ran away from SS Broly like Goku and Vegeta did but without their despair, so his base has to fall in ssblue ballpark but not in SS Broly's. As a SS he closes the gap with Broly and surpasses him but not by a huge margin.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:06 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:35 pm
Goku was explicitly using Kaioken-x20 against Jiren in their first fight when he used Kaioken, as Whis elaborates when Krillin brings up Goku surely being able to handle that level in SSB by now.

There's also no stated level against Merged Zamasu, nor against Ultimate Gohan.
The first was to build up tension. Tension for the enemy's power. Krill in was like the viewer. He thought that Goku's trump card would be enough against Jiren, but it is at that moment when we learn that Goku is already using it, making us feel desperate for Goku, questioning how he will overcome this opponent.

For Merged Zamasu, it was a ×2 Kaio Ken. Why? Because it had hardly been any time since the Tournament of the Destroyers when Goku used ×10 Kaio Ken on top of Blue for the very first time, suffering from Ki disorder and originally from physical injuries. Given the struggle against Zamasu, in the FT Arc and how there was little time for the Saiyans to train, no way would Goku develop a more powerful KK and no way would he be able to learn how to use the ×10 variant in so little time, after just recovering from it's first use and going directly into battle.

Gohan could challenge Blue Goku. Made his father proud. But in no way, shape, or form would Ultimate Gohan be able to fight Blue Goku. The reason behind this is when he sparred with an-equal-to-Goku True Golden Freeza (when tricking Frost) and was defeated by a non-serious Freeza with ease. Of course it was a farce, but Freeza did state that he would instantly have killed Gohan if he didn't realize and Gohan never denied it. It was a normal KK, just to check on how far Gohan had gone.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:27 pm

I'll address the other points later, but for now I just want to say this: the last time Goku gave a multiplier to KK in the Super anime was when facing Jiren with the Genki Dama. After that, whenever he used the kaioken, it's never given a number. It's up in the air.

Hence he could have used whatever number on Kefla. And finally, Whis only said she matched the U7 GD AFTER she knocked Goku out. I saw it as Kefla slowly figuring her full power out, eventually peaking at that level of power when knocking Goku with that sucker kick.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:57 pm

Thani wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:27 pm
I'll address the other points later, but for now I just want to say this: the last time Goku gave a multiplier to KK in the Super anime was when facing Jiren with the Genki Dama. After that, whenever he used the kaioken, it's never given a number. It's up in the air.

Hence he could have used whatever number on Kefla. And finally, Whis only said she matched the U7 GD AFTER she knocked Goku out. I saw it as Kefla slowly figuring her full power out, eventually peaking at that level of power when knocking Goku with that sucker kick.
I think, when Goku and Vegeta are fighting Jiren, he's just constantly using Kaioken-x20. That's the highest he can go and is supposed to be equal to SSBE Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:13 pm

Which is what I pretty much assume. But he never shouts a number, neither does the spectators give one, so it's left technically unclear. Which is why I believe that Goku used the 20x KK against Kefla, otherwise her beating him and THEN being compared to the GD would mean he became 10x stronger after fighting (and losing) to Jiren, despite being shown as more or less equal to Caulifla in SSj2 and equal to Vegeta in SSB, both of whom had no increases of that magnitude during that point of the tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:14 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:35 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 am


Given how you ranked all these individuals based on pure strength alone, I think I can agree with most points. I just don't think that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, despite her killing intent on 2nd UIO Goku, would be capable of defeating GoD Toppo in raw power. Because she would actually be stronger than a God of Destruction. I mean, it wouldn't really make sense to hype Toppo and his new power, but placing him under the previous major enemy.

I actually think that one of the ideas in the ToP was to follow a Z Movies logic. That being that each consecutive major enemy would be stronger than the last. Given how with this scaling, Janemba was above Hirudegarn, imma say that Jiren is our "Janemba".

That means, imo, that in the ToP the second greatest threat after Jiren was GoD Toppo.

(which is also why it is practically impossible for me to accept that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in Base in the whole tournament. Do we really need a statement to understand something as evident as this?)
Yes, yes we do.

Especially when it's not evident at all.
I prefer to be wrong then. But....

Throwing all the Jiren talk and fights aside. How do you explain the fight between Kefla and Goku? Kefla as a Super Saiyan was challenging Blue Goku and forced him to use a regular Kaio Ken. Her power in siad form was rivaling the Universal Spirit Bomb from before, which level of destruction was nearly equal to that of Blue KK×20 Goku.

Yet he used a simple KK on her. And before anyone tells me that we don't know of the level of KAIO Ken used by him (similarly to the fight against Halo Form Merged Zamasu) tell me one time that Goku never explicitly shouted the level of KK that he used. Only against Hit didn't he say anything about times 3 and 4,respectively but it was because he reached the level that he wanted. TIMES TEEEEEEEEN. pretty sure it was a normal KK against a Kefla that rivaled a previously KK ×20 Blue equal Spirit Bomb.
He used the maximum output he could at the time of Kaioken against both Zamasu and Kefla. He doesnt have to shout it.

He surely didnt when Vegeta turned SSBE and both of them fought him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:40 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:14 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:35 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am

Yes, yes we do.

Especially when it's not evident at all.
I prefer to be wrong then. But....

Throwing all the Jiren talk and fights aside. How do you explain the fight between Kefla and Goku? Kefla as a Super Saiyan was challenging Blue Goku and forced him to use a regular Kaio Ken. Her power in siad form was rivaling the Universal Spirit Bomb from before, which level of destruction was nearly equal to that of Blue KK×20 Goku.

Yet he used a simple KK on her. And before anyone tells me that we don't know of the level of KAIO Ken used by him (similarly to the fight against Halo Form Merged Zamasu) tell me one time that Goku never explicitly shouted the level of KK that he used. Only against Hit didn't he say anything about times 3 and 4,respectively but it was because he reached the level that he wanted. TIMES TEEEEEEEEN. pretty sure it was a normal KK against a Kefla that rivaled a previously KK ×20 Blue equal Spirit Bomb.
He used the maximum output he could at the time of Kaioken against both Zamasu and Kefla. He doesnt have to shout it.

He surely didnt when Vegeta turned SSBE and both of them fought him.
Because, to answer to the question of the rest members here, we have Beerus' quote this time. "He is giving everything that he's got"

We know that KK×20 is the max of what Goku can perform, so Beerus saying this, acknowledges the fact that he used the times 20 variant.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:02 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:47 am
I mostly agree with you, I will just specify some points to discuss

- FPSSJ Broly is definitely above SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku, so I would put him behind Jiren (I don't think Broly surpassed either Jiren or MUI Goku).

- And particularly, I think GoD Toppo is above ToP SSB KK x20 Goku as well. Probably Goku just overcame the power difference that existed between the two after the tournament (during ToP, Goku KK x20 didn't get a power up like Vegeta)

- SSB Vegeta (Final Flash) is a special case because it's not just a power boost forced by Vegeta's technique, Vegeta himself was getting stronger due to a pride boost and that made his attack much stronger but I think that makes sense where you put it

- Maybe SSJ2 Kefla is above Broly because she was able to kill UIO Goku (116) with her final attack, while Broly could barely disable Freeza's Golden form, but this is debatable since it was probably due to the fact that Goku was quickly losing power with the UI
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:14 pm
He used the maximum output he could at the time of Kaioken against both Zamasu and Kefla. He doesnt have to shout it.

He surely didnt when Vegeta turned SSBE and both of them fought him.
Against Kefla, Goku barely had the energy to keep Blue (he didn't even intend to use this transformation). So I don't think he used it more than regular Kaioken. The same goes for Zamasu (Goku had both arms broken and very tired at that time, he just managed to give it a kick). Sure, it's just speculation, but it makes sense based on other characters' dialogues

Against Jiren Beerus says Goku was using everything he had, so I think it's safe to say he was using Kaioken x20

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 pm

I wish to start by saying that there might be a misunderstanding here. Over the course of the list, there are some entries with repeated numbers. Case in point:
37 a. SSj2 Kefla:
37 b. GoD Toppo:

I've put it like that to emphasize that they share the same place in the list, hence, the same amount of power. So whenever there is a "X Number a" and "X Number b", it's to indicate their shared level of power. Being before or after another doesn't really mean anything. So, in my list, SSj2 Kefla is on par with GoD Toppo and Black is on par with the current top characters. That can be discussed, sure, but the placement itself was not indicative of a power relationship - at least, it was not my intention.

Okay, so I will now address some points I found to be interesting. So here it goes!
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:54 am
- How strong do you have base Gogeta? Because I don't think SS Broly can be equal to SS Kefla if base Gogeta is Blue tier. I just couldn't make that work with numbers at all... And I tried a lot.
RE: You know, I kind of forgot the other forms of Gogeta hahaha. So, really, I can't not put Base Gogeta anywhere else but on the same spot as SSB Goku/Vegeta. He was dodging Broly's attacks more or less as competently as his components individually, but never tried to face him directly. SSj Gogeta, to me, rank together with Kefla and Broly, but in a fight he would have a very clear advantage over them.

The reason I consider this to be the case, despite Kefla's base being around SSG in terms of power, is because her SSj form is not the standard transformation. After all, if her base was only on par with Godku, then her SSj COULD NOT be equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb like Whis said. It should be dead even with his regular Blue, at best. But Kefla is not a normal Super Saiyan, at least to me, she shared the regular SSj of Caulifla and the "Berserker/Legendary" SSj of Kale, which made her go from utter fodder in the anime to something beyond a SSj2, perhaps even SSj3! Which is why I think Kefla, with her unique brand of SSj, can be on the same level of SSj Gogeta and SSj Broly, despite her base form being considerably weaker than theirs.

About Broly, I am considering his SSj form to increase the power he displayed in his Ikari state. So it's just a regular transformation for him, but it boosted his already SSB-level power, instead of his considerably weaker regular base.


- I don't think Merged Zamasu had that corrupted power the whole time. His dialogue before hitting himself to grow his arm implies he didn't.
RE: I can see that, and I get it, but I got the feeling he was more frustrated than anything. I saw him summoning the lightning to strike him as a punishment for allowing them to get the better of him. He was pissed. Before he was merely annoyed that they wouldn't drop dead, getting progressively angry when they started to push him back despite the odds. Now he was furious, and a 1000% done with them, kinda like in the manga. But that's just how I saw the scenes, like I said, I could be way off mark from what the writers intended.

- I wouldn't put Gohan that low. I would put him with the FT arc SSB's.
RE: That's just my bias against Gohan and 17 talking :lol:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:13 am
Scythe Goku Black is another can of worms like Infinite Zamasu to be honest. He claims that his power had surpassed even his own divine understanding, and I believe him. He probably would have won if he did not fuse with Zamasu. But it's impossible to know for certain how much more powerful he became. That being said he tore open a rift in reality, that is an incredible feat that implies a very huge power boost.
I think it wouldn’t matter, he was definitely much better of as Merged Zamasu. In theory, as a fusion, he should still have the power to replicate that rift in reality, so it’s mostly the writers fault for not exploring it further. Wasted a perfectly good plot, as they say hahaha
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:36 am

Given how you ranked all these individuals based on pure strength alone, I think I can agree with most points. I just don't think that Super Saiyan 2 Kefla, despite her killing intent on 2nd UIO Goku, would be capable of defeating GoD Toppo in raw power. Because she would actually be stronger than a God of Destruction. I mean, it wouldn't really make sense to hype Toppo and his new power, but placing him under the previous major enemy.

I actually think that one of the ideas in the ToP was to follow a Z Movies logic. That being that each consecutive major enemy would be stronger than the last. Given how with this scaling, Janemba was above Hirudegarn, imma say that Jiren is our "Janemba".

That means, imo, that in the ToP the second greatest threat after Jiren was GoD Toppo.

(which is also why it is practically impossible for me to accept that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in Base in the whole tournament. Do we really need a statement to understand something as evident as this?)
Yeah, I don’t see Kefla being stronger than any of the current Gods of Destruction… But I don’t see Toppo being, either. It fits as well, Toppo became a literal fledgling amongst the ranks of the GoDs, so he shouldn’t be AS powerful as them, despite becoming ONE of them. I get your logic, tho, and it makes sense, which is why I compromised and placed them together – Toppo, however, has the obvious advantage with his Energy of Destruction, so he would have a much easier time defeating Kefla than the other way around.

I still don’t REALLY see it, tho. I mean, yes, I can see Goku and Vegeta becoming stronger overall, but not the likes of 10, 20 times stronger. They don’t need to be, narratively.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am
- I would put ToP SSB Goku / Vegeta above Black by a good margin considering how much they improved during ToP. Black may have surpassed both with the scythe in the FT arc, but I don't see how he would handle the two Saiyans after the tournament
RE: That's fair, but it did seem like Black at that time surpassed them by a decent margin, so that they mostly closed the gap at the end of the ToP (kinda like Goku and Vegeta were decently weaker than Golden Freeza at the beginning, but eventually surpassed that level of power).

- Due to all the dialogues during the ToP (Supressed Jiren being stronger than SSJ2 Kefla and Vegeta and Toppo exceeding this level) I would put GoD Toppo over SSJ2 Kefla and Zamasu (as well as SSBE Vegeta)
RE: That's somewhat debatable, but I get your point. I think Kefla as SSj2 surpassed that suppressed Jiren since she was actually on the same rough level of second UIO Goku, who was a step above the one that gave Jiren a good fight.


- I have SSJ Broly probably above SSJ2 Kefla, but that's debatable
RE: I don't think so, imo, mostly because Broly's SSj seemed to be nothing out of the ordinary, it merely mixed with his Ikari state, retaining the green aura. So his boost from Ikari shouldn't be higher than a regular SSj, which, to me, shouldn't put him on GoD territory, which I believe SSj2 Kefla is really bordering. His FP is another thing entirely, imo, practically another transformation hahaha. So it's easy to accept how much it empowered him.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am
Against Kefla, Goku barely had the energy to keep Blue (he didn't even intend to use this transformation). So I don't think he used it more than regular Kaioken. The same goes for Zamasu (Goku had both arms broken and very tired at that time, he just managed to give it a kick). Sure, it's just speculation, but it makes sense based on other characters' dialogues

Against Jiren Beerus says Goku was using everything he had, so I think it's safe to say he was using Kaioken x20
This is actually a good point, I had forgotten that part. Buuuut, I think it can be said that Goku was even more tired when he was at that point in the Jiren fight - he had already exhausted himself with the second UIO application, after all. I see your point tho, it's really viable. The best I can work with in this case is that Kefla was still getting stronger, since she was only compared to the Spirit Bomb after defeating Goku. So he could have used a lesser version of Kaioken on her, and it worked well because she was not yet at her peak, and then she continued to increase in power (she did power up together with SSB Goku, before he used a kamehameha against her, didn't she?)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:41 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:02 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:47 am
I mostly agree with you, I will just specify some points to discuss

- FPSSJ Broly is definitely above SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku, so I would put him behind Jiren (I don't think Broly surpassed either Jiren or MUI Goku).

- And particularly, I think GoD Toppo is above ToP SSB KK x20 Goku as well. Probably Goku just overcame the power difference that existed between the two after the tournament (during ToP, Goku KK x20 didn't get a power up like Vegeta)

- SSB Vegeta (Final Flash) is a special case because it's not just a power boost forced by Vegeta's technique, Vegeta himself was getting stronger due to a pride boost and that made his attack much stronger but I think that makes sense where you put it

- Maybe SSJ2 Kefla is above Broly because she was able to kill UIO Goku (116) with her final attack, while Broly could barely disable Freeza's Golden form, but this is debatable since it was probably due to the fact that Goku was quickly losing power with the UI
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:14 pm
He used the maximum output he could at the time of Kaioken against both Zamasu and Kefla. He doesnt have to shout it.

He surely didnt when Vegeta turned SSBE and both of them fought him.
Against Kefla, Goku barely had the energy to keep Blue (he didn't even intend to use this transformation). So I don't think he used it more than regular Kaioken. The same goes for Zamasu (Goku had both arms broken and very tired at that time, he just managed to give it a kick). Sure, it's just speculation, but it makes sense based on other characters' dialogues

Against Jiren Beerus says Goku was using everything he had, so I think it's safe to say he was using Kaioken x20
Goku used KKX10 against Zamasu.

The preview for the episode specifically said Goku uses a "Life risking attack" and we have Kaio's conversation with Goku that warned him that using KKx10 specifically was very dangerous and could screw up his Ki indefinitely.

Against Kefla you clearly see his aura getting bigger while in Kaioken so it makes a lot sense he used it. I actually chuckled a bit when you said he was too tired in the ToP haha. Remember Vegeta? After defeating Toppo it was said he didn't have any energy left and then on the next episode he turned SSBE.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:54 am

I think it wouldn’t matter, he was definitely much better of as Merged Zamasu. In theory, as a fusion, he should still have the power to replicate that rift in reality, so it’s mostly the writers fault for not exploring it further. Wasted a perfectly good plot, as they say hahaha
I always wondered why Fused Zamasu didn't just create a scythe and summon his own army of clones. If he had done that he could have defeated Vegito and Trunks. But I guess that that scythe thing was like a one-time technique or something. The scythe did disappear when Black used it to create the rift.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:50 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:02 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:47 am
I mostly agree with you, I will just specify some points to discuss

- FPSSJ Broly is definitely above SSBE Vegeta and SSB KK x20 Goku, so I would put him behind Jiren (I don't think Broly surpassed either Jiren or MUI Goku).

- And particularly, I think GoD Toppo is above ToP SSB KK x20 Goku as well. Probably Goku just overcame the power difference that existed between the two after the tournament (during ToP, Goku KK x20 didn't get a power up like Vegeta)

- SSB Vegeta (Final Flash) is a special case because it's not just a power boost forced by Vegeta's technique, Vegeta himself was getting stronger due to a pride boost and that made his attack much stronger but I think that makes sense where you put it

- Maybe SSJ2 Kefla is above Broly because she was able to kill UIO Goku (116) with her final attack, while Broly could barely disable Freeza's Golden form, but this is debatable since it was probably due to the fact that Goku was quickly losing power with the UI
I see your points. Yes, I actually had Goku KK×20 in mind being somewhat weaker to Toppo, as Blue Evolution, after all the boosts, is a superior form imo.

Universal Spirit Bomb ≈ Blue KK ×20 Goku (ep. 110) = Ikari/Wrathful Broly (Full Power) <= Blue KK Goku (VS Kefla) = SSJ Kefla ≈ Blue Goku (End of ToP) ≈ Blue Vegeta (End of ToP) ≈ True Golden Freeza (Broly arc, post potential training) < Blue Vegeta (FF) ≈ Merged Zamasu (peak) < Vegito Blue (FT arc) < 1st Omen ≈ Supressed Jiren < SSJ Broly < SSJ2 Kefla < Blue KK×10 Goku (End of ToP) < 2nd Omen <= Blue KK×20 Goku (End of ToP) < GoD Toppo < Blue Evolution Vegeta (Maximum Power) < FPSSJ Broly < 3rd Omen = Full Power/100% Jiren < Limit Break/Super Full Power Jiren < MUI (Rage Boost) ≈ Gogeta Blue (Broly arc)

As for Vegeta, that's why I didn't place him that far from his End of ToP Blue level. I just think that in that moment, with his Final Flash, he reached a level of power unseen for a Super Saiyan Blue before. Of course he nearly reached it again by the end of the Tournament, but just not enough.

I actually placed Broly at a level of KK×10 Blue Goku from the movie. I guess the duo did somewhat train after the Tournament, for Broly to be bale to defeat their past selves in their best forms.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:38 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:54 am
I think it wouldn’t matter, he was definitely much better of as Merged Zamasu. In theory, as a fusion, he should still have the power to replicate that rift in reality, so it’s mostly the writers fault for not exploring it further. Wasted a perfectly good plot, as they say hahaha
I always wondered why Fused Zamasu didn't just create a scythe and summon his own army of clones. If he had done that he could have defeated Vegito and Trunks. But I guess that that scythe thing was like a one-time technique or something. The scythe did disappear when Black used it to create the rift.
True, very true. But to be fair, Black never had the chance to use it again, since he fused with Zamasu immediately after. It was def a one-time thing, however, and it makes no goddamn sense for it to be! M. Zamasu is still a Super Saiyan Rosé, with both Zamasu and Black techniques. He even proved by making an upgraded form of Black's "Divine Lasso" in the form of his "Blades of Judgement" attack!

I fault the writers, honestly. Merged Zamasu had SO many cool options of attacks that he could do, but they never went true crazy with him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:46 pm

Thani wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:54 am
I think it wouldn’t matter, he was definitely much better of as Merged Zamasu. In theory, as a fusion, he should still have the power to replicate that rift in reality, so it’s mostly the writers fault for not exploring it further. Wasted a perfectly good plot, as they say hahaha
I always wondered why Fused Zamasu didn't just create a scythe and summon his own army of clones. If he had done that he could have defeated Vegito and Trunks. But I guess that that scythe thing was like a one-time technique or something. The scythe did disappear when Black used it to create the rift.
True, very true. But to be fair, Black never had the chance to use it again, since he fused with Zamasu immediately after. It was def a one-time thing, however, and it makes no goddamn sense for it to be! M. Zamasu is still a Super Saiyan Rosé, with both Zamasu and Black techniques. He even proved by making an upgraded form of Black's "Divine Lasso" in the form of his "Blades of Judgement" attack!

I fault the writers, honestly. Merged Zamasu had SO many cool options of attacks that he could do, but they never went true crazy with him.
To be fair, I can't blame the writers. Let's analyze Black's clones:

- They cannot be destroyed, in fact they just reform if you somehow manage to disintegrate them;
- They are limitless, there were like 20 of them at the beginning and the rift kept spawning more and more of them;
- Because of their numbers they can easily overwhelm their opponents by just swarming them;
- They are also quite strong, in fact they were able to do some damage to SSB Goku and Vegeta, so they are not just weak minions;
- They are spawned from a rift that blocks certain vital techniques like the Instant Transmission.

And now imagine all of that, but with clones of Fused Zamasu instead of Black. All I'm going to say is that they would have been forced to call Zeno much sooner.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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