Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Noitsnothim
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:00 am
ekrolo2 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:06 am
Jiren is above Beerus, that much is without question. Whis, upon seeing him fight back the Genki-dama with a glare knew the rumor of a non-God being above Hakaishin was in-fact true. Note this is before the several times Jiren ever even starts fighting seriously. Never mind his final power-up which increased his ordinary abilities to match UI Goku, even letting Jiren hurt him on several occasions in-spite of UIs ridiculously high-quality dodging abilities.
To be fair, I do believe Whis was mentioning that with regards to how suppressed he is despite so effortlessly stalemating Goku's Genkidama; only someone that strong could push back the Genkidama with the level of suppression being used.

Goku had a harder time with Jiren in a fresh SSB/KKx20 state while pushing to the limits of his limits than he did against Pure Buu in his tired-out base form, and Pure Buu could only barely push back the Genkidama while Jiren very solidly kept it right between him and Goku.

So, at the bare minimum, Jiren should be in the ballpark of hundreds of times stronger than SSB/KKx20. Easily fits the notion that it takes SSB Fusion to reach and surpass the level of God of Destruction with that kind of power gap.
Well Shin (Supreme Kai of U7) upon Seeing Vegito Blue's battle with Merged Zamasu (IN THE MANGA) wonders if Vegito has surpassed Beerus in Power

In FighterZ upon defeating Vegito Jiren says "So, you had to fuse to be my Equal?" Jiren's def 100x stronger than fusions and new Broly
Maybe even Beerus

People forget that Toyo added extra panels to the tournament of power saga where Jiren states he wants to meet again for an inevitable rematch between the two and what a coincidence that this is followed up in 'Broly' where Goku still sees Jiren as a wall to overcome (probably since he knows he can't tap into UI at will) Beerus isn't much of a concern to Goku anymore not like the beginning of Super

Jiren surpassed that level of strength and power which intrigues Goku (As that's probably something he wants to do as well) I believe Jiren is stronger than Beerus

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:33 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:01 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:43 am
Miracles wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:54 pm


Goku Black was never stated to be stronger than Hit either. Hit was never stated to be stronger than golden Freeza even tho both villians fought STRONGER versions of Goku. Let's not forget, Toriyama himself says he always has the next villain greater. Please let's not forget, how you guys keep saying Beerus being surpassed contradicts Toriyama's story narrative of Beerus being Goku's goal.
Yep, like I thought, pure headcanon based on out of universe statements from almost a decade ago.

Still can't prove Broly is stronger than Jiren, who was never directly stated to surpass Beerus, just like Beerus was also never stated to be stronger than Jiren, who was stronger than his own hakaishin and then grew even stronger. And Beerus just rules his own universe, if someone surpasses another hakaishin then chances are he is in Beerus's realm and if he gets a massive power boost, then he probably surpasses him. Is like having a hakaishin participate and then break his limits and beat up the guy everyone stood up to see... why would anyone need a direct statement to tell that this guy probably left the rest in the dust?

And Hit's trump card isn't his strenght, his techniques are what separates him from the rest, nothing points that Black stomps Hit and Hit stomps Freeza like Buu with Cell. Actually they did equally bad against Dyspo, and Golden Freeza one shot the blue out of post FT Goku. So yes, that Toriyama statement clearly is outdated and in DBS there are many "plotholes" for it, like Future Zamasu being not that strong but immortal, Golden Freeza having already in RoF the incredible power he learnt to control in the ToP, or Moro also not being that strong but having magical powers to compensate. It is not so linear anymore thus a basic statement like "the next one is just stronger than the previous one" has no place. Maybe in Z, but Super has given us different types of villains that are outside the box and fail to fall so easily into this "one is stronger just because it came later" thing.
Not even the DBS movies follow that statement: 2013 BoG top dog Beerus.. 2015 RoF a much weaker Golden Freeza... 2019 Broly who may or may not be stronger than Beerus. So in movies it might actually be the other way around.
Wrong, Beerus is the endgame as BoG was a setup for he and Goku to have a fight in the future. That is the plot, a stated fact that can not be refuted. So Beerus doesn't factor in the formula since he is waiting for Goku later. Freeza was next, who barely was stronger than a Blue Goku. Hit then fought a stronger Goku who could use Blue KKX10. Which Hit needed to power up in order to compete against this stronger Goku. Black who Zenkai's all day fought a stronger Goku who could overpower a fusion in Zamas in Blue alone, Then here comes Jiren, who is stronger than Black; stronger than Belmond, then, here comes Broly, who is stronger than Jiren, who was compared to Goku's future plot battle goalpost in Beerus. Finally, Moro; who due to his magic, MAKES him strongest as he will literally suck up any previous opponent's powers and use it as his own to boost his own battle power. So you are factually wrong again about DB's story.

Now here's the icing on the cake, these facts lead us to the ULTIMATE truth. Back to The highest authority on DB's story, the author himself, Akira Toriyama is ALWAYS an in-universe canon statement. Telling the audience HOW his story is structured. He said the next enemy is always the strongest. You trying to explain this continual plot fact away with headcanon is a heinous transgression.
Blue Goku could overpower MZ because of one KK kick? what??? that kamehameha with Zamasu just floating around?

You are still headcanoning all over the place which I don't have a problem with, but then you can't go around calling out on other people's headcanon. Specially when you speak about an ultimate truth found nowhere, based on a 2013 interview, you keep taking to heart some outdated interview that was not backed up by the story at all, Beerus was followed by a weaker character, Golden Freeza(who stomped Blue, was not just barely stronger, that same power, controlled, remained relevant by the ToP and actually one-shot the Blue out of Goku before the ToP) who was followed by Hit who's punches were not that heavy according to Blue Vegeta. DBS proved defeating enemies without necessarily being stronger is possible, like Future Zamasu against Trunks, initial Moro against God Vegeta, Dyspo against Hit and Golden Freeza (both did equally bad against Dyspo, so there is no clear strongest of the two) You are literally overlooking the facts of the show. GF, Hit(with his time skip) and Black Rose are pretty much in the same ballpark, no one stomps the other like Jiren or MZ would.

The enemy tiers were hakaishin level (Beerus)... blue level, blue level, blue level(Freeza, Hit, Black)... fusion level(Zamasu)... above hakaishin level (Jiren)... hakaishin level (Broly). It doesn't go with your growing chart.

And you still haven't explained how that suppossed ULTIMATE TRUTH works for the movies... Broly beats Freeza and Freeza beats Beerus, right? unless the continual plot fact isn't set in stone, could that be actually it?

The benchmark is just fandom talk, it was never stated in-universe(Toriyama's in-universe statement would be speaking through his characters, not giving interviews), and if it was said by Toriyama, that was years ago, from the time he said Beerus was at 70% against God Goku. Like you should know, all that was retconned in 2015, along with the 15-10-6 ranking.

The narrative implied Jiren > Beerus. Statements said, PERHAPS Broly > Beerus. But you say Broly > Jiren and I'm the one with the headcanon???

According to your logic, you don't even need to watch the show to know who beats who. I won't discuss anymore other people's take on Toriyama's interviews! have fun with them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:19 pm

Well, let me pop up a new question to have something to debate on.

God Fusion. A mighty technique. Used by Goku against Z Broly in the 4D movie featuring the Legendary Super Saiyan God. Damn Toei played with us all these years before for Broly VS Gogeta.

How strong is it? Imo, LSSJG Broly, could easily take on 2 SSJBs with ease, meaning that he has to be at least twice as strong, if not stronger (although it is possible for lesser gaps in power to have extremely different outcomes). Of course in my own head cannon Super Saiyan Blue is 5 times stronger than Super Saiyan God, so the respective Legendary form is 20 times stronger than the one Goku and Vegeta use. This makes Broly around 4 times stronger than SSJB.

When Goku used the final pose of the Fusion Dance to merge himself with the Spirit Energy, his personality didn't change, but he got the Fusion Vest and more power. He is now on par with Broly. Just to round up the numbers,
  • SSJB Goku/Vegeta=5×SSJG Goku/Vegeta
  • LSSJG Broly=25×SSJG or 5×SSJB
  • God Fusion Goku=5×Goku or GF (God Fusion) SSJB Goku=5×SSJB
After Goku uses a God Kamehameha on Broly, he is defeated meaning that he can't take on that kind of power. I acknowledge attack multipliers, so the KHH must be roughly a 2 times multiplier on top of Goku, bringing him on the realm of SSJB KK×10.

Any other ideas? I mean, Z Broly in his own unique "SSJB" wouldn't be an overkill either.

Currently, I have FPSSJ Super Broly, equal to LSSJG Z Broly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:21 pm

Assuming Beerus is the "endgame" is as headcanon as it can get. it doesn't even make any sense.

Jiren was on the level of the GoDs while being suppressed according to Whis and he also said maybe even above them after observing Belmod smiling, and then you have Jiren getting a limit breaking power up far above his own full power, how could he have not surpassed all the GoDs?

Unless Beerus is for some reason way above Belmod and the other GoDs, he is below Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:59 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:33 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:01 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:43 am


Yep, like I thought, pure headcanon based on out of universe statements from almost a decade ago.

Still can't prove Broly is stronger than Jiren, who was never directly stated to surpass Beerus, just like Beerus was also never stated to be stronger than Jiren, who was stronger than his own hakaishin and then grew even stronger. And Beerus just rules his own universe, if someone surpasses another hakaishin then chances are he is in Beerus's realm and if he gets a massive power boost, then he probably surpasses him. Is like having a hakaishin participate and then break his limits and beat up the guy everyone stood up to see... why would anyone need a direct statement to tell that this guy probably left the rest in the dust?

And Hit's trump card isn't his strenght, his techniques are what separates him from the rest, nothing points that Black stomps Hit and Hit stomps Freeza like Buu with Cell. Actually they did equally bad against Dyspo, and Golden Freeza one shot the blue out of post FT Goku. So yes, that Toriyama statement clearly is outdated and in DBS there are many "plotholes" for it, like Future Zamasu being not that strong but immortal, Golden Freeza having already in RoF the incredible power he learnt to control in the ToP, or Moro also not being that strong but having magical powers to compensate. It is not so linear anymore thus a basic statement like "the next one is just stronger than the previous one" has no place. Maybe in Z, but Super has given us different types of villains that are outside the box and fail to fall so easily into this "one is stronger just because it came later" thing.
Not even the DBS movies follow that statement: 2013 BoG top dog Beerus.. 2015 RoF a much weaker Golden Freeza... 2019 Broly who may or may not be stronger than Beerus. So in movies it might actually be the other way around.
Wrong, Beerus is the endgame as BoG was a setup for he and Goku to have a fight in the future. That is the plot, a stated fact that can not be refuted. So Beerus doesn't factor in the formula since he is waiting for Goku later. Freeza was next, who barely was stronger than a Blue Goku. Hit then fought a stronger Goku who could use Blue KKX10. Which Hit needed to power up in order to compete against this stronger Goku. Black who Zenkai's all day fought a stronger Goku who could overpower a fusion in Zamas in Blue alone, Then here comes Jiren, who is stronger than Black; stronger than Belmond, then, here comes Broly, who is stronger than Jiren, who was compared to Goku's future plot battle goalpost in Beerus. Finally, Moro; who due to his magic, MAKES him strongest as he will literally suck up any previous opponent's powers and use it as his own to boost his own battle power. So you are factually wrong again about DB's story.

Now here's the icing on the cake, these facts lead us to the ULTIMATE truth. Back to The highest authority on DB's story, the author himself, Akira Toriyama is ALWAYS an in-universe canon statement. Telling the audience HOW his story is structured. He said the next enemy is always the strongest. You trying to explain this continual plot fact away with headcanon is a heinous transgression.
Blue Goku could overpower MZ because of one KK kick? what??? that kamehameha with Zamasu just floating around?

You are still headcanoning all over the place which I don't have a problem with, but then you can't go around calling out on other people's headcanon. Specially when you speak about an ultimate truth found nowhere, based on a 2013 interview, you keep taking to heart some outdated interview that was not backed up by the story at all, Beerus was followed by a weaker character, Golden Freeza(who stomped Blue, was not just barely stronger, that same power, controlled, remained relevant by the ToP and actually one-shot the Blue out of Goku before the ToP) who was followed by Hit who's punches were not that heavy according to Blue Vegeta. DBS proved defeating enemies without necessarily being stronger is possible, like Future Zamasu against Trunks, initial Moro against God Vegeta, Dyspo against Hit and Golden Freeza (both did equally bad against Dyspo, so there is no clear strongest of the two) You are literally overlooking the facts of the show. GF, Hit(with his time skip) and Black Rose are pretty much in the same ballpark, no one stomps the other like Jiren or MZ would.

The enemy tiers were hakaishin level (Beerus)... blue level, blue level, blue level(Freeza, Hit, Black)... fusion level(Zamasu)... above hakaishin level (Jiren)... hakaishin level (Broly). It doesn't go with your growing chart.

And you still haven't explained how that suppossed ULTIMATE TRUTH works for the movies... Broly beats Freeza and Freeza beats Beerus, right? unless the continual plot fact isn't set in stone, could that be actually it?

The benchmark is just fandom talk, it was never stated in-universe(Toriyama's in-universe statement would be speaking through his characters, not giving interviews), and if it was said by Toriyama, that was years ago, from the time he said Beerus was at 70% against God Goku. Like you should know, all that was retconned in 2015, along with the 15-10-6 ranking.

The narrative implied Jiren > Beerus. Statements said, PERHAPS Broly > Beerus. But you say Broly > Jiren and I'm the one with the headcanon???

According to your logic, you don't even need to watch the show to know who beats who. I won't discuss anymore other people's take on Toriyama's interviews! have fun with them.
Koitsukai says: "The benchmark is just fandom talk, it was never stated in-universe"

Canon says: Image
Image
Image

Which also explains why the story went from Beerus to the weaker Freeza. Beerus was a setup for Goku's benchmark. So Toriyama's the next enemy being stronger than the last ALWAYS stayed in vogue from DB to super.

Everything you state is contrary to the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:20 pm

Sounds like reaching, honestly. Beerus is important, yeah, but nothing has actually concretely stated recently that this is still the case when the evidence points to enemies coming out that are stronger than Beerus. But since you're not likely to budge on the matter, I'll just leave ya to believe that; time will tell what the truth is in the future.

So, for right now, I started doing some brainstorming for how strong SSB and Ikari are.

Based on my own read of Broly's power jumps, he seems to power up in 10s, like the standard Oozaru boost. He jumps up 10 times against SS Vegeta when he takes on the punch, then jumps up by 10 again when his aura flares up again. Easy 100 times boost in base power, enough to get SS Vegeta on the run and necessitate SSG to decisively overpower Broly.

So then he properly goes berserk with Oozaru power. A 10 times jump from this level that allows him to take on SSG Vegeta. Recent analyses by other folks have shown me that the fight wasn't as one-sided as I originally thought. To keep it simple and fair, I decided that the initial regular-haired Ikari state was equal to SSG. Nice and simple, 1000 times the base form of Goku and Vegeta.

So then his hair gets spiky. I'm thinking that he gains another clean 10 times jump in power, and this doesn't seem to change at all throughout his fight with Goku. So, 10 times off of this cleanly rivals SSB, a power gap of 10,000 times for the base forms of Goku and Vegeta. Again, nice and simple.

What do you guys think?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:02 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:59 pm

Koitsukai says: "The benchmark is just fandom talk, it was never stated in-universe"

Canon says: Image
Image
Image

Which also explains why the story went from Beerus to the weaker Freeza. Beerus was a setup for Goku's benchmark. So Toriyama's the next enemy being stronger than the last ALWAYS stayed in vogue from DB to super.

Everything you state is contrary to the story.
You got THAT from those images? they are literally opening the door to Goku surpassing Beerus not before too long aka a few arcs later while trying to save Beerus' life and the rest of the universe aswell. Early DBS saiyans were said to might become his opponents, and you won't even consider Jiren who was already worlds stronger than them, not even breaking his limits as a match for Beerus? ok, let's just drop it right here and move on. This is going nowhere.

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:20 pm
So, for right now, I started doing some brainstorming for how strong SSB and Ikari are.

Based on my own read of Broly's power jumps, he seems to power up in 10s, like the standard Oozaru boost. He jumps up 10 times against SS Vegeta when he takes on the punch, then jumps up by 10 again when his aura flares up again. Easy 100 times boost in base power, enough to get SS Vegeta on the run and necessitate SSG to decisively overpower Broly.

So then he properly goes berserk with Oozaru power. A 10 times jump from this level that allows him to take on SSG Vegeta. Recent analyses by other folks have shown me that the fight wasn't as one-sided as I originally thought. To keep it simple and fair, I decided that the initial regular-haired Ikari state was equal to SSG. Nice and simple, 1000 times the base form of Goku and Vegeta.

So then his hair gets spiky. I'm thinking that he gains another clean 10 times jump in power, and this doesn't seem to change at all throughout his fight with Goku. So, 10 times off of this cleanly rivals SSB, a power gap of 10,000 times for the base forms of Goku and Vegeta. Again, nice and simple.

What do you guys think?
My problem with Broly, where I keep hitting a wall is with base Broly's jump (although he might have tapped into his Ikari form to cope with SS Vegeta) from his SS2-3 tier to SSGod tier. If he is just SS2 tier then becoming 10 times stronger would make him stronger than SS3 who is 4x SS2 but God should still be enough, so I prefer to believe he is SS3. We need a God multiplier and I believe there is little to no consensus with it.

I don't think the typical 10x boost would work and here is why: in BoG, before god ki and all, SSGod was a better choice than Vegito. Lowballing SSGod, let's say it was Super Vegito and not SS3 Vegito he was talking about, then, basing this on the fan theory that base Vegito was equal or stronger than SS3 Goku, Super Vegito is 50x stronger than SS3, so God should be even more than that, worst case scenario SSGod is 50x SS3.
Broly starting from SS3 level shouldn't close that gap with just a 10x boost. What makes me think he might be above the typical 10x boost is him being a freak of nature with a weird green ki and a unique transformation. I just don't see 10x being it, I feel it is much more, but I can be convinced otherwise though.

Moving on, he closes the gap, but is restrained by another SSGod and then the full ikari power comes out, reaching blue tier. Here I encounter another issue: how much stronger is SSBlue than SSGod? is it 50x like SS or 10x? maybe a middle ground of 25x? in the manga I believe it was stated to be 10x but the manga does downplay the power levels. How much stronger do you need to get to force Jiren from using one finger to actually having to move? If the difference between SS3 and SSGod is the same between SSGod and Blue, could he get 50x stronger to face SSGod Vegeta and then another 50x to fight Blue Goku?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:28 pm

Something to keep in mind when I compare god-forms to non-god-forms is that I assume that Goku and Vegeta have "closed the gap", so to speak, on SSG's power.

The jump from base to SSG before they made that power their own is higher because it wasn't a part of them at the time, at least in my mind.

So, base forms are super strong and god-forms aren't so ludicrously above the normal forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:05 am

I think each power-up boosting Saiyans by 50-fold works nice.

Super Saiyan - 50x Base
Super Saiyan God - 50x Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Blue - 50x Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:14 pm

Super Saiyan God being less than 10x mightier than SSj3 sounds iffy, though. That would make it weaker than the initial state of SSj4!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:23 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:14 pm
Super Saiyan God being less than 10x mightier than SSj3 sounds iffy, though. That would make it weaker than the initial state of SSj4!
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:05 am
I think each power-up boosting Saiyans by 50-fold works nice.

Super Saiyan - 50x Base
Super Saiyan God - 50x Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Blue - 50x Super Saiyan God.
Which is why, I have found a very nice multiplier for the form. Nothing too massive, but a number which would make it a form of a different realm of power.

The sum of the SSJ multiplier of the 5 ritual members (now, now, there was a debate on whether or not SSJ is required for the Ritual, due to Videl, but let's forget this inconsistency) multiplex by the SSJ multiplier of the 6th member.

That said: 5 × 50 = 250

So: 250 × 50 = 12,500 times Base

Around 30 times stronger than SSJ2, but not a whooping 50, or 100. Which is why beings of SSJ3 level of power (Fully Powered-up Base Broly, Initial Ikari Broly, SSJ2 Quake of Fury Vegeta, Empowered Base Goku Black, SSJ2B Kale etc.) might have a chance of dealing some damage.

The most logical thing of a number that comes into mind imo. Because it involves numbers that are present in the sequence.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:33 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:14 pm
Super Saiyan God being less than 10x mightier than SSj3 sounds iffy, though. That would make it weaker than the initial state of SSj4!
Most of the time that SS4 and SSBlue were put against each other they were treated as equally-matched, so SSGod being weaker than SS4 makes sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:08 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:20 pm
Sounds like reaching, honestly. Beerus is important, yeah, but nothing has actually concretely stated recently that this is still the case when the evidence points to enemies coming out that are stronger than Beerus. But since you're not likely to budge on the matter, I'll just leave ya to believe that; time will tell what the truth is in the future.

So, for right now, I started doing some brainstorming for how strong SSB and Ikari are.

Based on my own read of Broly's power jumps, he seems to power up in 10s, like the standard Oozaru boost. He jumps up 10 times against SS Vegeta when he takes on the punch, then jumps up by 10 again when his aura flares up again. Easy 100 times boost in base power, enough to get SS Vegeta on the run and necessitate SSG to decisively overpower Broly.

So then he properly goes berserk with Oozaru power. A 10 times jump from this level that allows him to take on SSG Vegeta. Recent analyses by other folks have shown me that the fight wasn't as one-sided as I originally thought. To keep it simple and fair, I decided that the initial regular-haired Ikari state was equal to SSG. Nice and simple, 1000 times the base form of Goku and Vegeta.

So then his hair gets spiky. I'm thinking that he gains another clean 10 times jump in power, and this doesn't seem to change at all throughout his fight with Goku. So, 10 times off of this cleanly rivals SSB, a power gap of 10,000 times for the base forms of Goku and Vegeta. Again, nice and simple.

What do you guys think?
So you think Blue is 10 times God?

Interesting. That doesn't work with Black in the anime though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:31 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:08 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:20 pm
Sounds like reaching, honestly. Beerus is important, yeah, but nothing has actually concretely stated recently that this is still the case when the evidence points to enemies coming out that are stronger than Beerus. But since you're not likely to budge on the matter, I'll just leave ya to believe that; time will tell what the truth is in the future.

So, for right now, I started doing some brainstorming for how strong SSB and Ikari are.

Based on my own read of Broly's power jumps, he seems to power up in 10s, like the standard Oozaru boost. He jumps up 10 times against SS Vegeta when he takes on the punch, then jumps up by 10 again when his aura flares up again. Easy 100 times boost in base power, enough to get SS Vegeta on the run and necessitate SSG to decisively overpower Broly.

So then he properly goes berserk with Oozaru power. A 10 times jump from this level that allows him to take on SSG Vegeta. Recent analyses by other folks have shown me that the fight wasn't as one-sided as I originally thought. To keep it simple and fair, I decided that the initial regular-haired Ikari state was equal to SSG. Nice and simple, 1000 times the base form of Goku and Vegeta.

So then his hair gets spiky. I'm thinking that he gains another clean 10 times jump in power, and this doesn't seem to change at all throughout his fight with Goku. So, 10 times off of this cleanly rivals SSB, a power gap of 10,000 times for the base forms of Goku and Vegeta. Again, nice and simple.

What do you guys think?
So you think Blue is 10 times God?

Interesting. That doesn't work with Black in the anime though.
I think it could. A theory!

Perhaps Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rose doesn't work like a normal SS form due to his God Ki and godly soul. Perhaps the body-swap change makes it so that he gains a 10 times boost from transforming into a Super Saiyan, and he's transforming on top of a base form using God Ki, essentially making it a SSG. So, he doesn't have a normal golden SS form because of this and transforms like a SSB instead.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:45 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:33 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:14 pm
Super Saiyan God being less than 10x mightier than SSj3 sounds iffy, though. That would make it weaker than the initial state of SSj4!
Most of the time that SS4 and SSBlue were put against each other they were treated as equally-matched, so SSGod being weaker than SS4 makes sense.
Hmm... SSBlue was also treated equally to Z Vegito in other media, actually below Z Super Vegito, I prefer to stick to the show. To me, it's closer to SSGod, who should be way above anything Vegito could offer, and that would also be a good description of SS4.

I assume that a legendary god transformation that a Hakaishin dreamed of, should be above a "regular" transformation of the same species. Even if we pretend SS4 is THE legendary SS, still shouldn't be above the legendary SS GOD.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:51 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:31 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:08 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:20 pm
Sounds like reaching, honestly. Beerus is important, yeah, but nothing has actually concretely stated recently that this is still the case when the evidence points to enemies coming out that are stronger than Beerus. But since you're not likely to budge on the matter, I'll just leave ya to believe that; time will tell what the truth is in the future.

So, for right now, I started doing some brainstorming for how strong SSB and Ikari are.

Based on my own read of Broly's power jumps, he seems to power up in 10s, like the standard Oozaru boost. He jumps up 10 times against SS Vegeta when he takes on the punch, then jumps up by 10 again when his aura flares up again. Easy 100 times boost in base power, enough to get SS Vegeta on the run and necessitate SSG to decisively overpower Broly.

So then he properly goes berserk with Oozaru power. A 10 times jump from this level that allows him to take on SSG Vegeta. Recent analyses by other folks have shown me that the fight wasn't as one-sided as I originally thought. To keep it simple and fair, I decided that the initial regular-haired Ikari state was equal to SSG. Nice and simple, 1000 times the base form of Goku and Vegeta.

So then his hair gets spiky. I'm thinking that he gains another clean 10 times jump in power, and this doesn't seem to change at all throughout his fight with Goku. So, 10 times off of this cleanly rivals SSB, a power gap of 10,000 times for the base forms of Goku and Vegeta. Again, nice and simple.

What do you guys think?
So you think Blue is 10 times God?

Interesting. That doesn't work with Black in the anime though.
I think it could. A theory!

Perhaps Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rose doesn't work like a normal SS form due to his God Ki and godly soul. Perhaps the body-swap change makes it so that he gains a 10 times boost from transforming into a Super Saiyan, and he's transforming on top of a base form using God Ki, essentially making it a SSG. So, he doesn't have a normal golden SS form because of this and transforms like a SSB instead.
Vegeta says Rose is his version of Super Saiyan but I suppose the theory can work but now that I think about it in the manga it can't work thanks to Completed Blue.

Regular Blue at 10% is weaker than God but Completed Blue is treated like a big power up so it conflicts with this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 pm

Actually, SSB at under 10% power is below SSG.

It seems like the manga's stamina-draining normal SSB could rest around approx. 5 times greater than SSG, while its completed state is an exact 10 times like in the anime and recent movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:17 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:45 pm
I assume that a legendary god transformation that a Hakaishin dreamed of, should be above a "regular" transformation of the same species. Even if we pretend SS4 is THE legendary SS, still shouldn't be above the legendary SS GOD.
I’m not sure if can call SS4 a regular transformation. Broli didn’t even need Super Saiyan to match SSGod and SSBlue, he just used an Great Ape based form. So, I think it makes sense that SS4, using a similar concept, can match them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:17 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:45 pm
I assume that a legendary god transformation that a Hakaishin dreamed of, should be above a "regular" transformation of the same species. Even if we pretend SS4 is THE legendary SS, still shouldn't be above the legendary SS GOD.
I’m not sure if can call SS4 a regular transformation. Broli didn’t even need Super Saiyan to match SSGod and SSBlue, he just used an Great Ape based form. So, I think it makes sense that SS4, using a similar concept, can match them.
Just like everything else in DBS, SSG has more feats and demonstrations of power than anything ever shown by SSJ4 in DBGT (not only that, but its performances against higher level enemies as well). Comparing characters from such different media is tricky, but definitely SSG seems to be a level far above anything previously shown in DB (even compared to other media). Or at least that seems to be what Toriyama wanted to imply
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 pm
Actually, SSB at under 10% power is below SSG.

It seems like the manga's stamina-draining normal SSB could rest around approx. 5 times greater than SSG, while its completed state is an exact 10 times like in the anime and recent movie.
Unmastered really does seem to be around 5x above SSG (or a little more than that), but Mastered SSB is definitely more than just a 5x difference from Unmastered SSB.

MSSB Goku literally matched a fusion (between users who had SSB and SSJ2 level). It was enough to make Beerus serious and according to Beerus himself, MSSB Vegeta could be a candidate for Hakaishin in another universe. It really looks like a different level compared to old SSB e especially SSG

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:17 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:45 pm
I assume that a legendary god transformation that a Hakaishin dreamed of, should be above a "regular" transformation of the same species. Even if we pretend SS4 is THE legendary SS, still shouldn't be above the legendary SS GOD.
I’m not sure if can call SS4 a regular transformation. Broli didn’t even need Super Saiyan to match SSGod and SSBlue, he just used an Great Ape based form. So, I think it makes sense that SS4, using a similar concept, can match them.
Yeah, but that would be the canon version, conceived 23 years after the Baby arc and looking nothing like DBGT's SS4, I don't think we can compare it with Broly's SS. Specially with Broly being the subject.

I don't think SS4 is a regular transformation either, but even if it is the legendary form, so is SSGod... the legendary SS God, while the other would be just the legendary SS.

SS4, to me, pales in comparison mainly because SSgod was introduced as forcing Hakaishin Beerus to his 70%, while SS4 is just on par with a parasite controlling a SS Ohzaru. Beerus was retconned, yes, but I think the general idea was to present SSGod as an entire new level from what we already had, canon or not.

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