Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:15 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:18 pm
Actually, SSB at under 10% power is below SSG.

It seems like the manga's stamina-draining normal SSB could rest around approx. 5 times greater than SSG, while its completed state is an exact 10 times like in the anime and recent movie.
Yup.

While Blue being 10 times God would be nice to reduce the bloat, it really does feel like it's 50 times.

It's God turning Super Saiyan after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:30 am

Wanna know another bit of info that confirms Jiren is stronger than Beerus? Back in the Future Trunks saga (Manga Version) there's a panel in chapter 16 where Supreme kai states "there is still no entity that can match or surpass the power of a god of destruction" whether he meant in his universe I don't know (But now Broly Exists) but that sentence alone came before the tournament of power and one of the main driving forces in that saga was Goku's opponent who is a mortal above a God Of Destruction

New Broly at Best can maybe Match Beerus' strength and become slightly more powerful than his 70%

My ranking for them is Jiren>Beerus>Broly

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 pm
Just like everything else in DBS, SSG has more feats and demonstrations of power than anything ever shown by SSJ4 in DBGT (not only that, but its performances against higher level enemies as well). Comparing characters from such different media is tricky, but definitely SSG seems to be a level far above anything previously shown in DB (even compared to other media). Or at least that seems to be what Toriyama wanted to imply
I don’t put much stock on those feats from Battle of Gods Arc. SSBlue+ level clashes, which are supposed to be far above that level, can’t create the same kind of colateral damage in the universe, so I think the idea that they can do that was totally discarded after that point. SSGod is merely stronger than Super Vegetto from Boo Arc, that’s what I think.
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:29 pm
Yeah, but that would be the canon version, conceived 23 years after the Baby arc and looking nothing like DBGT's SS4, I don't think we can compare it with Broly's SS. Specially with Broly being the subject.

I don't think SS4 is a regular transformation either, but even if it is the legendary form, so is SSGod... the legendary SS God, while the other would be just the legendary SS.

SS4, to me, pales in comparison mainly because SSgod was introduced as forcing Hakaishin Beerus to his 70%, while SS4 is just on par with a parasite controlling a SS Ohzaru. Beerus was retconned, yes, but I think the general idea was to present SSGod as an entire new level from what we already had, canon or not.
Just to clarify, I’m not comparing SS4 with SS Broli. I’m comparing it with his Great Ape humanoid form, which comes from the same idea. Both are supposed to bring the Saiyan to its peak condition, as if they were Great Apes.

Anyway, the legendary SS form is stronger than SSBlue, so I’m not sure what you are talking about.
I’m totally fine with Beerus being stronger than all the villains from Dragon Ball GT, but as far as SSGod is concerned I don’t think it is supposed to be thaaaat strong yet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:35 am

Honestly, I would think SSG is on the same realm as, say, Omega Shenron. Much stronger than a regular SSj4, but not capable of fighting a fusion of one.

That said, if I were to remake the series with SSj4 in mind, I would currently make it on par with SSG, with it's "full power" state (when Goku took the ki of a lot of people to finish Baby and fight Omega) being slightly weaker than SSB's full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:58 am

Thani wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:35 am
Honestly, I would think SSG is on the same realm as, say, Omega Shenron. Much stronger than a regular SSj4, but not capable of fighting a fusion of one.

That said, if I were to remake the series with SSj4 in mind, I would currently make it on par with SSG, with it's "full power" state (when Goku took the ki of a lot of people to finish Baby and fight Omega) being slightly weaker than SSB's full power.
I am inclined to agree. I would place Omega Shenron at 70% of SSJG's power, so against a SSJ4 fusion, he would do better but not well enough.

For me it works out like this:
  • Golden Great APE (GGA) = 500×Base
  • Regular Super Saiyan 4 = 2×GGA or 1000×Base
  • Max Power Super Saiyan 4 (in the fights with Omega it is made evident that SSJ4 can ascend to a higher level of power, without being different) = 2×SSJ4 or 2000×Base
  • Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4 = 2~4×Max Power SSJ4 (although the number may increase a little, but no more than times 4) or 4000-8000×Base
  • Super Saiyan 4 Spirit Bomb (the ability to absorb energy like in Movie 7 with Android 13, showcased by how Goku powered up massively against GGA Baby by absorbing the Revenge Death Ball Final, like a Spirit Bomb) = 10×Regular Super Saiyan 4 or 10,000×Base
Now, now, I might be crucified for saying these things, but with a personal headcanon multiplier for Super Saiyan God of 12,500×Base, it makes some sense right? A fusion SSJ4 is undoubtedly superior.

But tbh, I might retcon these multipliers a little so they are not exactly my 100% original numbers. Forget the base form numbers. The difference between the forms themselves though will remain the same.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Soldierofficial » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:22 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:30 am
Wanna know another bit of info that confirms Jiren is stronger than Beerus? Back in the Future Trunks saga (Manga Version) there's a panel in chapter 16 where Supreme kai states "there is still no entity that can match or surpass the power of a god of destruction" whether he meant in his universe I don't know (But now Broly Exists) but that sentence alone came before the tournament of power and one of the main driving forces in that saga was Goku's opponent who is a mortal above a God Of Destruction

New Broly at Best can maybe Match Beerus' strength and become slightly more powerful than his 70%

My ranking for them is Jiren>Beerus>Broly
Broly is probably stronger than Beerus according to Goku, he is not weaker.

Broly >= Beerus > Jiren

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:22 pm

How strong would a God of Destruction Mode Freeza be ?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:44 pm

Probably about as strong as God of Destruction Toppo since Golden Frieza=SSB=Base Toppo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Soldierofficial » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:45 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Probably about as strong as God of Destruction Toppo since Golden Frieza=SSB=Base Toppo.
Toppo has god ki, which is a great power up, Freeza would be much stronger than Base Toppo if he had trained with an angel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:10 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Probably about as strong as God of Destruction Toppo since Golden Frieza=SSB=Base Toppo.
Golden Freeza is stronger than base Toppo though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:53 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 pm
Just like everything else in DBS, SSG has more feats and demonstrations of power than anything ever shown by SSJ4 in DBGT (not only that, but its performances against higher level enemies as well). Comparing characters from such different media is tricky, but definitely SSG seems to be a level far above anything previously shown in DB (even compared to other media). Or at least that seems to be what Toriyama wanted to imply
I don’t put much stock on those feats from Battle of Gods Arc. SSBlue+ level clashes, which are supposed to be far above that level, can’t create the same kind of colateral damage in the universe, so I think the idea that they can do that was totally discarded after that point. SSGod is merely stronger than Super Vegetto from Boo Arc, that’s what I think.
Yes, there are no more clashes that make the universe tremble, but there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:10 pm
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Probably about as strong as God of Destruction Toppo since Golden Frieza=SSB=Base Toppo.
Golden Freeza is stronger than base Toppo though.
Well, Golden Freeza never faced base Toppo in a direct fight, just took advantage that he was facing 17, so I wouldn't say he's stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am

Golden Freeza is equal to base Toppo. Proven by sleeping Blue Goku just before the TOP. Blue Vegeta was fighting equally with Base Toppo in both manga/anime.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:43 am

Yup. Plus base Toppo tanked a lot of Golden Frieza's attacks, surviving enough to transform into his GoD mode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:30 am

Just had this idea and needed some help. Do you think that it is possible for Goku's power to have dropped to 50% once he became a child in GT? I mean I can think of instances where this is the case. The instant transmission couldn't be used by him too and his stamina decreased, something that was fixed once he got his tail back.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:56 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:53 pm
there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4
What are you talking about?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:30 am
Just had this idea and needed some help. Do you think that it is possible for Goku's power to have dropped to 50% once he became a child in GT? I mean I can think of instances where this is the case. The instant transmission couldn't be used by him too and his stamina decreased, something that was fixed once he got his tail back.
20 years ago when I first watched the show, that's what I immediately thought. After all is the most logical thing, can't recall the actual wish, but Pilaf asked for Goku to become a kid again, not to just be diminished in size. The wish should've been Goku as a kid not remembering anything from Z, back to when he asked why, why, why all the time and was easier to manipulate and couldn't fly (in other words, weaker), that would be what Pilaf wanted, but Black Shenron did whatever he wanted. The show then pretty much treats Goku like he is actually stronger, even though zenkais are stated to be no more.

-- I was just re-watching the beginning of DBS Broly. Bulma finds out when Goku and Vegeta are sparring that Freeza actually saved the universe, so could it be that the movie actually takes place much sooner than what people thought?(some even believed Freeza trained for months between ToP and movie) It just sounds weird to me that Bulma, the most curious creature in the show, forgot to ask how things went over there if there were months between DBS and movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:24 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:16 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:30 am
Just had this idea and needed some help. Do you think that it is possible for Goku's power to have dropped to 50% once he became a child in GT? I mean I can think of instances where this is the case. The instant transmission couldn't be used by him too and his stamina decreased, something that was fixed once he got his tail back.
20 years ago when I first watched the show, that's what I immediately thought. After all is the most logical thing, can't recall the actual wish, but Pilaf asked for Goku to become a kid again, not to just be diminished in size. The wish should've been Goku as a kid not remembering anything from Z, back to when he asked why, why, why all the time and was easier to manipulate and couldn't fly (in other words, weaker), that would be what Pilaf wanted, but Black Shenron did whatever he wanted. The show then pretty much treats Goku like he is actually stronger, even though zenkais are stated to be no more.

-- I was just re-watching the beginning of DBS Broly. Bulma finds out when Goku and Vegeta are sparring that Freeza actually saved the universe, so could it be that the movie actually takes place much sooner than what people thought?(some even believed Freeza trained for months between ToP and movie) It just sounds weird to me that Bulma, the most curious creature in the show, forgot to ask how things went over there if there were months between DBS and movie.
Yeah. I mean some days later the events of the film could have taken place. I see no reason for such a thing to not be the case. But, given how DBS ended with Freeza re-establishing his Empire while looking for new members and how everyone would probably need some days to get back at full strength and just live their ordinary lives again, I think that at least 1-2 months at most passed.

In the meantime Freeza did his thing and we can't really say that everything happened earlier as Vegeta's statements on Freeza getting a new form after training would imply that he would have to do so for more than a couple of days.

I think of it as Bulma not realizing that Freeza would actually help with the salvation of the universe. That she just can't put it in her mind. It is also a plot device used to storyteller the previous major event. Having this movie, with absolutely no comments on the aftermath of the previous arc (arguably the most serious arc ever, as the multiverse was at stake) wouldn't really make sense, or serve a narrative purpose.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:38 pm

I guess you are right, I forgot about DBS's epilogue completely

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:42 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:53 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 pm
Just like everything else in DBS, SSG has more feats and demonstrations of power than anything ever shown by SSJ4 in DBGT (not only that, but its performances against higher level enemies as well). Comparing characters from such different media is tricky, but definitely SSG seems to be a level far above anything previously shown in DB (even compared to other media). Or at least that seems to be what Toriyama wanted to imply
I don’t put much stock on those feats from Battle of Gods Arc. SSBlue+ level clashes, which are supposed to be far above that level, can’t create the same kind of colateral damage in the universe, so I think the idea that they can do that was totally discarded after that point. SSGod is merely stronger than Super Vegetto from Boo Arc, that’s what I think.
Yes, there are no more clashes that make the universe tremble, but there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:10 pm
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:44 pm
Probably about as strong as God of Destruction Toppo since Golden Frieza=SSB=Base Toppo.
Golden Freeza is stronger than base Toppo though.
Well, Golden Freeza never faced base Toppo in a direct fight, just took advantage that he was facing 17, so I wouldn't say he's stronger.
Base Toppo was on par with Blue Vegeta who is weaker than Freeza.

It's not a big difference but it's there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:27 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:42 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:53 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am

I don’t put much stock on those feats from Battle of Gods Arc. SSBlue+ level clashes, which are supposed to be far above that level, can’t create the same kind of colateral damage in the universe, so I think the idea that they can do that was totally discarded after that point. SSGod is merely stronger than Super Vegetto from Boo Arc, that’s what I think.
Yes, there are no more clashes that make the universe tremble, but there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:10 pm

Golden Freeza is stronger than base Toppo though.
Well, Golden Freeza never faced base Toppo in a direct fight, just took advantage that he was facing 17, so I wouldn't say he's stronger.
Base Toppo was on par with Blue Vegeta who is weaker than Freeza.

It's not a big difference but it's there.
Actually SsjB Vegeta seemed slightly superior to me.

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