Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:50 am
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:01 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Blowing up the planet should be even easier. Why didn’t Omega Shenron just destroy the planets one by one?
Because going from planet to planet would’ve been slower than Omega’s infection method which multiplies the more it destroys. But even that method is still slower than three-shotting the universe through punches.
Why are you assuming he wants to do that as fast as possible? How do you know that?
It standard to assume that when you have a goal, you want finish it in the most efficient and successful way. I should be asking you for why he wouldn't do so in that manner.

Regardless, SSG has statements that he can destroy the universe in a few punches while Omega doesn't. Saying that "Omega can because he never said he can't" is fallacious because there's nothing saying he can do it to begin with, and because the logic would apply to nearly everybody in the original DB. If the debate was about Goku against a character from a different franchise entirely then comparisons between destruction power would be made, this shouldn't be any different.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:55 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:37 am
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 am
1) Jiren's definitive statement was only stronger than Belmond. Goku beat Jiren with UI therefore stronger than Belmond. Since Beerus is Goku's benchmark [Magazine guide didn't even know if Mastered UI Goku was stronger than Beerus with a "might be"] he is stronger than both Jiren and Belmond. Therefore the much stronger opponent than Jiren in Broly got the only comparison to Goku's benchmark in name, with the word "probably stronger than Beerus."

2) Fusion was available with the Patora. However, Goku and Vegeta never considered it because they were sure enough that they could beat Jiren with their own power. They never lost hope against Jiren. It doesn't matter if UI was there for Goku in the TOP. The fact is, even if Goku went UI against Broly, still would be a more powerful UI Goku than the one Jiren fought. So it's still demonstrates Broly is stronger.

3) Toriyama's narration always has fusion as Goku and Vegeta's last resort. They use it against opponents who have merged in order to even the score, who are way out of their league and it also hurts their pride. Since they refuse to use it because it is not their own power. Broly is stronger than Jiren who lost to a single when Broly lost to a full power double and some.
1) Despite that, there's still nothing on if Vermoud's and Beerus's are any different. On top of that, EP130 Geran unlocked even more power and it increased dramatically from his former full-power which would at least make him dramatically stronger than Vermoud and most likely Beerus.

2) Goku and Vegeta simply didn't try fusion because messing it up even once (let alone twice like in the movie) would've cost them the tournament. Their hope didn't waiver against Geran because they were actually using SSBKKx20 & SSBE and could beat Geran by a ring-out. If we're still going with the "Broli forced them to fuse, while Geran didn't" then it's still not a 1-to-1 comparison because Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse while Geran would've had to make a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE fuse.

3) That narration isn't consistent in Boo arc, because they resorted to the Genki-Dama after fusing. It also isn't consistent in the movie, because they didn't even use their best forms nor Genki-Dama before they fused against an Broli (who wasn't fused). The entire point of "fusing is a last resort" as a reason for why someone is stronger than another is shaky at best, because do it when they have a bit of trouble.
1. Jiren unlocking more power still didn't change his narration of ONLY being stronger than Belmond. Still was weaker than UI Goku, who was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. The anime magazine itself didn't even know with the words "might be." Beerus is the top tier.

2. It doesn't matter if Goku and Vegeta used SSBE/SSBKKX20 in the movie too. The PLOT dictates that Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Broly and need other sources to defeat him. That source is the strongest Trump card in Goku and Vegeta's arsenal, fusing into a new warrior, capable of power that Goku and Vegeta can't do on their own. Even IF Goku went UI or BlueKKX20 against Broly they still would be stronger versions than what Jiren faced. So Broly shows he is stronger either way!

3.Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse against Kid Buu cause it would be unfair. They wanted to beat him with their own power as stated. They only fused for opponents way out of their weight class. Jiren wasn't necessary to fuse cause they could handle him with their own power in BOTH anime/manga. However, against the stronger Broly they had no hope and had to run away and become another warrior.

Moro > Broly > Jiren...It's just like Akira Toriyama says.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:58 pm

Didn't Whis said that fusion grants a great deal of power but you could also lose two fighters at the same time? Beerus said he wouldn't let anybody fuse if it meant the possibility of losing two members at the same time. And he never touched that subject again, not even when their defeat (his obliteration) was written in stone, not even when losing two fighters at once wasn't such a big deal because they were so few left. Some bystander might say he didn't believe fusion would be enough, or that he was betting it all on UI. I, personally, don't think he'd be wrong: Vegito Blue was slightly stronger than Merged Zamasu, Jiren was stated by Shin to surpass them all in 110. At best a fusion would stalemate him, and then he rips his shirt off, so...

Also, I don't understand why Beerus is held in such high regard. He is not the legendary hakaishin, he is not a prodigy hakaishin, he is not the oldest, nor the smartest, he doesn't even have the strongest Angel training him, he hasn't perfected UI, he is not told to be any different from the rest, he is just part of the universe where the show takes place which guarantees nothing. We can't even base it on feats.
And in both mediums, not just the anime, he was said to be inferior in some regard to someone else (Belmond in the anime, the rat in the manga). He is not special. At least not anymore.
Already having discussions about two or three characters that surpass him are proof that he is no longer the sole top dog, and this idea was introduced before the ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:55 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:37 am
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:46 am
1) Jiren's definitive statement was only stronger than Belmond. Goku beat Jiren with UI therefore stronger than Belmond. Since Beerus is Goku's benchmark [Magazine guide didn't even know if Mastered UI Goku was stronger than Beerus with a "might be"] he is stronger than both Jiren and Belmond. Therefore the much stronger opponent than Jiren in Broly got the only comparison to Goku's benchmark in name, with the word "probably stronger than Beerus."

2) Fusion was available with the Patora. However, Goku and Vegeta never considered it because they were sure enough that they could beat Jiren with their own power. They never lost hope against Jiren. It doesn't matter if UI was there for Goku in the TOP. The fact is, even if Goku went UI against Broly, still would be a more powerful UI Goku than the one Jiren fought. So it's still demonstrates Broly is stronger.

3) Toriyama's narration always has fusion as Goku and Vegeta's last resort. They use it against opponents who have merged in order to even the score, who are way out of their league and it also hurts their pride. Since they refuse to use it because it is not their own power. Broly is stronger than Jiren who lost to a single when Broly lost to a full power double and some.
1) Despite that, there's still nothing on if Vermoud's and Beerus's are any different. On top of that, EP130 Geran unlocked even more power and it increased dramatically from his former full-power which would at least make him dramatically stronger than Vermoud and most likely Beerus.

2) Goku and Vegeta simply didn't try fusion because messing it up even once (let alone twice like in the movie) would've cost them the tournament. Their hope didn't waiver against Geran because they were actually using SSBKKx20 & SSBE and could beat Geran by a ring-out. If we're still going with the "Broli forced them to fuse, while Geran didn't" then it's still not a 1-to-1 comparison because Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse while Geran would've had to make a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE fuse.

3) That narration isn't consistent in Boo arc, because they resorted to the Genki-Dama after fusing. It also isn't consistent in the movie, because they didn't even use their best forms nor Genki-Dama before they fused against an Broli (who wasn't fused). The entire point of "fusing is a last resort" as a reason for why someone is stronger than another is shaky at best, because do it when they have a bit of trouble.
1. Jiren unlocking more power still didn't change his narration of ONLY being stronger than Belmond. Still was weaker than UI Goku, who was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. The anime magazine itself didn't even know with the words "might be." Beerus is the top tier.

2. It doesn't matter if Goku and Vegeta used SSBE/SSBKKX20 in the movie too. The PLOT dictates that Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Broly and need other sources to defeat him. That source is the strongest Trump card in Goku and Vegeta's arsenal, fusing into a new warrior, capable of power that Goku and Vegeta can't do on their own. Even IF Goku went UI or BlueKKX20 against Broly they still would be stronger versions than what Jiren faced. So Broly shows he is stronger either way!

3.Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse against Kid Buu cause it would be unfair. They wanted to beat him with their own power as stated. They only fused for opponents way out of their weight class. Jiren wasn't necessary to fuse cause they could handle him with their own power in BOTH anime/manga. However, against the stronger Broly they had no hope and had to run away and become another warrior.

Moro > Broly > Jiren...It's just like Akira Toriyama says.
1. Beerus (when sensing EP109 “less than hint of power” Geran) was in absolute shock that a mortal could have so much power. Beerus also sensed Merged Zamasu (who did well against SSB Vegetto) and only was mildly worried. Unless you believe that Goku and Vegeta’s base have gotten massively stronger (no indication of that) from End of Trunks arc to Broli Arc then there’s no way that Gogeta or Broli could match to UI or Geran. That being said, Beerus seem awfully nonchalant in the Broli movie when two beings supposedly near his power are fighting despite his earlier reaction/statement to a suppressed Geran.

2. So fusion isn’t a last resort like you said? At least we can agree on that. And again, it does matter if “Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse and not a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE” you can’t really ignore what you like for the sake of your argument. On top of that, there’s no mention of Goku and Vegeta gaining a noticeable increase of power from ToP to the Broli movie.

3. They contradicted their own statement by using the Genki-Dama (a technique that needs many life forms to work), and Broli isn’t fused so that’s moot. Again, Goku and Vegeta don’t really have the time to fuse because one mess-up costs them tournament, and it’s easier to deal with Geran because all they have to do is ring out. If Broli was in Geran’s position, then Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t have bothered to run and fuse instead attempting to simply ring him out.

Where did Toriyama say “Moro > Broli > Geran”
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:43 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am
It standard to assume that when you have a goal, you want finish it in the most efficient and successful way. I should be asking you for why he wouldn't do so in that manner.

Regardless, SSG has statements that he can destroy the universe in a few punches while Omega doesn't. Saying that "Omega can because he never said he can't" is fallacious because there's nothing saying he can do it to begin with, and because the logic would apply to nearly everybody in the original DB. If the debate was about Goku against a character from a different franchise entirely then comparisons between destruction power would be made, this shouldn't be any different.
Dragon Ball villains usually are stronger than the heroes and they like to play around with them, giving time to the heroes to come up with something to beat them. That’s why the evil Majin Boo is promoted to be the most dangerous, because he doesn’t have that weakness. So, I ask again, why Omega Shenron would intend something so off the chart?

Everyone safely assumes SSBlue can do as much as SSGod without seeing him doing it, yet they demand evidence that GT characters do it, despite being made very clear that SS4 is also much stronger than SS3 (to an unknown degree). I don’t understand this fandom.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:47 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:55 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:37 am


1) Despite that, there's still nothing on if Vermoud's and Beerus's are any different. On top of that, EP130 Geran unlocked even more power and it increased dramatically from his former full-power which would at least make him dramatically stronger than Vermoud and most likely Beerus.

2) Goku and Vegeta simply didn't try fusion because messing it up even once (let alone twice like in the movie) would've cost them the tournament. Their hope didn't waiver against Geran because they were actually using SSBKKx20 & SSBE and could beat Geran by a ring-out. If we're still going with the "Broli forced them to fuse, while Geran didn't" then it's still not a 1-to-1 comparison because Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse while Geran would've had to make a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE fuse.

3) That narration isn't consistent in Boo arc, because they resorted to the Genki-Dama after fusing. It also isn't consistent in the movie, because they didn't even use their best forms nor Genki-Dama before they fused against an Broli (who wasn't fused). The entire point of "fusing is a last resort" as a reason for why someone is stronger than another is shaky at best, because do it when they have a bit of trouble.
1. Jiren unlocking more power still didn't change his narration of ONLY being stronger than Belmond. Still was weaker than UI Goku, who was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. The anime magazine itself didn't even know with the words "might be." Beerus is the top tier.

2. It doesn't matter if Goku and Vegeta used SSBE/SSBKKX20 in the movie too. The PLOT dictates that Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Broly and need other sources to defeat him. That source is the strongest Trump card in Goku and Vegeta's arsenal, fusing into a new warrior, capable of power that Goku and Vegeta can't do on their own. Even IF Goku went UI or BlueKKX20 against Broly they still would be stronger versions than what Jiren faced. So Broly shows he is stronger either way!

3.Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse against Kid Buu cause it would be unfair. They wanted to beat him with their own power as stated. They only fused for opponents way out of their weight class. Jiren wasn't necessary to fuse cause they could handle him with their own power in BOTH anime/manga. However, against the stronger Broly they had no hope and had to run away and become another warrior.

Moro > Broly > Jiren...It's just like Akira Toriyama says.
1. Beerus (when sensing EP109 “less than hint of power” Geran) was in absolute shock that a mortal could have so much power. Beerus also sensed Merged Zamasu (who did well against SSB Vegetto) and only was mildly worried. Unless you believe that Goku and Vegeta’s base have gotten massively stronger (no indication of that) from End of Trunks arc to Broli Arc then there’s no way that Gogeta or Broli could match to UI or Geran. That being said, Beerus seem awfully nonchalant in the Broli movie when two beings supposedly near his power are fighting despite his earlier reaction/statement to a suppressed Geran.

2. So fusion isn’t a last resort like you said? At least we can agree on that. And again, it does matter if “Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse and not a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE” you can’t really ignore what you like for the sake of your argument. On top of that, there’s no mention of Goku and Vegeta gaining a noticeable increase of power from ToP to the Broli movie

3. They contradicted their own statement by using the Genki-Dama (a technique that needs many life forms to work), and Broli isn’t fused so that’s moot. Again, Goku and Vegeta don’t really have the time to fuse because one mess-up costs them tournament, and it’s easier to deal with Geran because all they have to do is ring out. If Broli was in Geran’s position, then Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t have bothered to fuse and attempt to ring him out.

Where did Toriyama say “Moro > Broli > Geran”
Fact 1: Toriyama says the next enemy is always stronger here...

Fact 2: Broly is stronger than Jiren cause of Toriyama's plot strength escalation. Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced. It doesn't matter if Broly fought Blue Goku/Vegeta, SSBE Vegeta, SSBKKX20 Goku or UI Goku, all those versions would be superior to the one Jiren fought. Fusion is just overkill cementing even more Broly's superior status.

The plot is what dictates who is stronger and the next enemy is always stronger...
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:43 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am
It standard to assume that when you have a goal, you want finish it in the most efficient and successful way. I should be asking you for why he wouldn't do so in that manner.

Regardless, SSG has statements that he can destroy the universe in a few punches while Omega doesn't. Saying that "Omega can because he never said he can't" is fallacious because there's nothing saying he can do it to begin with, and because the logic would apply to nearly everybody in the original DB. If the debate was about Goku against a character from a different franchise entirely then comparisons between destruction power would be made, this shouldn't be any different.
Dragon Ball villains usually are stronger than the heroes and they like to play around with them, giving time to the heroes to come up with something to beat them. That’s why the evil Majin Boo is promoted to be the most dangerous, because he doesn’t have that weakness. So, I ask again, why Omega Shenron would intend something so off the chart?

Everyone safely assumes SSBlue can do as much as SSGod without seeing him doing it, yet they demand evidence that GT characters do it, despite being made very clear that SS4 is also much stronger than SS3 (to an unknown degree). I don’t understand this fandom.
1) How is that off the chart? Omega's entire goal was to destroy the universe. If you were talking about someone like Freeza who just wants to conquer, then the "off the chart" would make sense. Even if you want to make the excuse that he's playing around, then he wouldn't have bother with the convoluted plan to destroy the universe. Besides the burden of proof is on you that he's capable of destroying the universe with a few punches.

2) You're comparing apples to oranges. SSB is literally the step-above SSG in the show, so we know that it can do that. While SS4 doesn't even exist in the same continuity as SSG, and so they don't share the same feats. Sure, SS4 is much stronger than SS3 but saying that SS4 is capable of the universe feat when it has more going against that than not, and 3 was only solar system level is a hard-sell.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:02 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:47 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:55 pm

1. Jiren unlocking more power still didn't change his narration of ONLY being stronger than Belmond. Still was weaker than UI Goku, who was never stated to be stronger than Beerus. The anime magazine itself didn't even know with the words "might be." Beerus is the top tier.

2. It doesn't matter if Goku and Vegeta used SSBE/SSBKKX20 in the movie too. The PLOT dictates that Goku and Vegeta are weaker than Broly and need other sources to defeat him. That source is the strongest Trump card in Goku and Vegeta's arsenal, fusing into a new warrior, capable of power that Goku and Vegeta can't do on their own. Even IF Goku went UI or BlueKKX20 against Broly they still would be stronger versions than what Jiren faced. So Broly shows he is stronger either way!

3.Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse against Kid Buu cause it would be unfair. They wanted to beat him with their own power as stated. They only fused for opponents way out of their weight class. Jiren wasn't necessary to fuse cause they could handle him with their own power in BOTH anime/manga. However, against the stronger Broly they had no hope and had to run away and become another warrior.

Moro > Broly > Jiren...It's just like Akira Toriyama says.
1. Beerus (when sensing EP109 “less than hint of power” Geran) was in absolute shock that a mortal could have so much power. Beerus also sensed Merged Zamasu (who did well against SSB Vegetto) and only was mildly worried. Unless you believe that Goku and Vegeta’s base have gotten massively stronger (no indication of that) from End of Trunks arc to Broli Arc then there’s no way that Gogeta or Broli could match to UI or Geran. That being said, Beerus seem awfully nonchalant in the Broli movie when two beings supposedly near his power are fighting despite his earlier reaction/statement to a suppressed Geran.

2. So fusion isn’t a last resort like you said? At least we can agree on that. And again, it does matter if “Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse and not a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE” you can’t really ignore what you like for the sake of your argument. On top of that, there’s no mention of Goku and Vegeta gaining a noticeable increase of power from ToP to the Broli movie

3. They contradicted their own statement by using the Genki-Dama (a technique that needs many life forms to work), and Broli isn’t fused so that’s moot. Again, Goku and Vegeta don’t really have the time to fuse because one mess-up costs them tournament, and it’s easier to deal with Geran because all they have to do is ring out. If Broli was in Geran’s position, then Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t have bothered to fuse and attempt to ring him out.

Where did Toriyama say “Moro > Broli > Geran”
Fact 1: Toriyama says the next enemy is always stronger here...

Fact 2: Broly is stronger than Jiren cause of Toriyama's plot strength escalation. Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced. It doesn't matter if Broly fought Blue Goku/Vegeta, SSBE Vegeta, SSBKKX20 Goku or UI Goku, all those versions would be superior to the one Jiren fought. Fusion is just overkill cementing even more Broly's superior status.

The plot is what dictates who is stronger and the next enemy is always stronger...
Fact 1: Hmmm, I guess Beerus is now weaker than Freeza, or Hit if that's true. See, Toriyama is not afraid to break this trend, and it's highly possible that he did so with Geran and Broli.

Fact 2: Again, how much stronger? They could have gotten 1% stronger and that wouldn't close the gap between them and Geran.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:25 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:43 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am
It standard to assume that when you have a goal, you want finish it in the most efficient and successful way. I should be asking you for why he wouldn't do so in that manner.

Regardless, SSG has statements that he can destroy the universe in a few punches while Omega doesn't. Saying that "Omega can because he never said he can't" is fallacious because there's nothing saying he can do it to begin with, and because the logic would apply to nearly everybody in the original DB. If the debate was about Goku against a character from a different franchise entirely then comparisons between destruction power would be made, this shouldn't be any different.
Dragon Ball villains usually are stronger than the heroes and they like to play around with them, giving time to the heroes to come up with something to beat them. That’s why the evil Majin Boo is promoted to be the most dangerous, because he doesn’t have that weakness. So, I ask again, why Omega Shenron would intend something so off the chart?

Everyone safely assumes SSBlue can do as much as SSGod without seeing him doing it, yet they demand evidence that GT characters do it, despite being made very clear that SS4 is also much stronger than SS3 (to an unknown degree). I don’t understand this fandom.
1) How is that off the chart? Omega's entire goal was to destroy the universe. If you were talking about someone like Freeza who just wants to conquer, then the "off the chart" would make sense. Even if you want to make the excuse that he's playing around, then he wouldn't have bother with the convoluted plan to destroy the universe. Besides the burden of proof is on you that he's capable of destroying the universe with a few punches.

2) You're comparing apples to oranges. SSB is literally the step-above SSG in the show, so we know that it can do that. While SS4 doesn't even exist in the same continuity as SSG, and so they don't share the same feats. Sure, SS4 is much stronger than SS3 but saying that SS4 is capable of the universe feat when it has more going against that than not, and 3 was only solar system level is a hard-sell.
Destroying the universe with a few shockwaves, that’s off the chart for Dragon Ball villains. They have a goal and never do most efficient way to get into that point, never.

I will make this easier. SSBlue is stronger than SSGod to an unknown degree. SSGod is stronger than SS3 to an unknown degree. SS4 is stronger than SS3 to an unknown degree. How do you know SSGod and SSBlue are stronger than SS4? You don’t. If GT were to be revised today, the author can write that SS4 can do all that stuff that SSGod and SSBlue are capable of, that it wouldn’t really change anything.

IMO, there is a blatant similarity between SS4 and Broli’s savage form. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were comparable in strength.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:26 pm

There is no chance in hell that SSB Goku from the movie can beat MUI Goku from the ToP. No way, José.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:17 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:02 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:47 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm


1. Beerus (when sensing EP109 “less than hint of power” Geran) was in absolute shock that a mortal could have so much power. Beerus also sensed Merged Zamasu (who did well against SSB Vegetto) and only was mildly worried. Unless you believe that Goku and Vegeta’s base have gotten massively stronger (no indication of that) from End of Trunks arc to Broli Arc then there’s no way that Gogeta or Broli could match to UI or Geran. That being said, Beerus seem awfully nonchalant in the Broli movie when two beings supposedly near his power are fighting despite his earlier reaction/statement to a suppressed Geran.

2. So fusion isn’t a last resort like you said? At least we can agree on that. And again, it does matter if “Broli only made 2 SSBs fuse and not a SSBKKx20 and a SSBE” you can’t really ignore what you like for the sake of your argument. On top of that, there’s no mention of Goku and Vegeta gaining a noticeable increase of power from ToP to the Broli movie

3. They contradicted their own statement by using the Genki-Dama (a technique that needs many life forms to work), and Broli isn’t fused so that’s moot. Again, Goku and Vegeta don’t really have the time to fuse because one mess-up costs them tournament, and it’s easier to deal with Geran because all they have to do is ring out. If Broli was in Geran’s position, then Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t have bothered to fuse and attempt to ring him out.

Where did Toriyama say “Moro > Broli > Geran”
Fact 1: Toriyama says the next enemy is always stronger here...

Fact 2: Broly is stronger than Jiren cause of Toriyama's plot strength escalation. Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced. It doesn't matter if Broly fought Blue Goku/Vegeta, SSBE Vegeta, SSBKKX20 Goku or UI Goku, all those versions would be superior to the one Jiren fought. Fusion is just overkill cementing even more Broly's superior status.

The plot is what dictates who is stronger and the next enemy is always stronger...
Fact 1: Hmmm, I guess Beerus is now weaker than Freeza, or Hit if that's true. See, Toriyama is not afraid to break this trend, and it's highly possible that he did so with Geran and Broli.

Fact 2: Again, how much stronger? They could have gotten 1% stronger and that wouldn't close the gap between them and Geran.
The point is, even if it's by 1% or 10,000%, any version of Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their TOP counterparts. Broly faced stronger opponents than what Jiren faced.

Also, Beerus was setup as an goalpost for Goku, so Freeza wasn't stronger than him. However Hit was stronger than Freeza. Which continues Toriyama's plot trend.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:25 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:43 pm

Dragon Ball villains usually are stronger than the heroes and they like to play around with them, giving time to the heroes to come up with something to beat them. That’s why the evil Majin Boo is promoted to be the most dangerous, because he doesn’t have that weakness. So, I ask again, why Omega Shenron would intend something so off the chart?

Everyone safely assumes SSBlue can do as much as SSGod without seeing him doing it, yet they demand evidence that GT characters do it, despite being made very clear that SS4 is also much stronger than SS3 (to an unknown degree). I don’t understand this fandom.
1) How is that off the chart? Omega's entire goal was to destroy the universe. If you were talking about someone like Freeza who just wants to conquer, then the "off the chart" would make sense. Even if you want to make the excuse that he's playing around, then he wouldn't have bother with the convoluted plan to destroy the universe. Besides the burden of proof is on you that he's capable of destroying the universe with a few punches.

2) You're comparing apples to oranges. SSB is literally the step-above SSG in the show, so we know that it can do that. While SS4 doesn't even exist in the same continuity as SSG, and so they don't share the same feats. Sure, SS4 is much stronger than SS3 but saying that SS4 is capable of the universe feat when it has more going against that than not, and 3 was only solar system level is a hard-sell.
Destroying the universe with a few shockwaves, that’s off the chart for Dragon Ball villains. They have a goal and never do most efficient way to get into that point, never.

I will make this easier. SSBlue is stronger than SSGod to an unknown degree. SSGod is stronger than SS3 to an unknown degree. SS4 is stronger than SS3 to an unknown degree. How do you know SSGod and SSBlue are stronger than SS4? You don’t. If GT were to be revised today, the author can write that SS4 can do all that stuff that SSGod and SSBlue are capable of, that it wouldn’t really change anything.

IMO, there is a blatant similarity between SS4 and Broli’s savage form. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were comparable in strength.
It’s not off the charts if the series makes it not. I’m sure if you told someone back when the series started that we would have casual planet buster universal emperor, they’ll look at you weird but here we are.

Again, this is a matter of evidence from the series. If I’m going by your logic, then I could spout some unbacked non-sense like Goku is an infinite-dimensional multiverse buster, then I’ll say *you* have to prove me wrong. See that doesn’t make sense because the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. In this case, you’re making the claim that Omega could destroy the universe with a few punches, and it’s on you to provide evidence from the series that is true.

Those similarities aren’t 1-to-1 either. We know that SSG jumps Goku from Solar System level to Universe level, which is an astronomical jump. SS4 jumps Goku from Solar System level to some where under a guy who tries to destroy a Universe but can’t accomplish that in a reasonable time.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:44 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:17 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:02 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:47 pm

Fact 1: Toriyama says the next enemy is always stronger here...

Fact 2: Broly is stronger than Jiren cause of Toriyama's plot strength escalation. Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced. It doesn't matter if Broly fought Blue Goku/Vegeta, SSBE Vegeta, SSBKKX20 Goku or UI Goku, all those versions would be superior to the one Jiren fought. Fusion is just overkill cementing even more Broly's superior status.

The plot is what dictates who is stronger and the next enemy is always stronger...
Fact 1: Hmmm, I guess Beerus is now weaker than Freeza, or Hit if that's true. See, Toriyama is not afraid to break this trend, and it's highly possible that he did so with Geran and Broli.

Fact 2: Again, how much stronger? They could have gotten 1% stronger and that wouldn't close the gap between them and Geran.
The point is, even if it's by 1% or 10,000%, any version of Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their TOP counterparts. Broly faced stronger opponents than what Jiren faced.

Also, Beerus was setup as an goalpost for Goku, so Freeza wasn't stronger than him. However Hit was stronger than Freeza. Which continues Toriyama's plot trend.
As there’s no evidence that Goku and Vegeta made a gain in power worth mentioning in-series, you really want to say that SSB Goku (ToP) + 1% is somehow stronger than SSBKK20 Goku (ToP)?

I just pointed out that trend broke once again with Geran and Broli, and gave evidence why Toriyama isn’t afraid to subvert (one of his favorite things to do in the series) that trend. I also gave evidence why Geran is stronger as a point against that trend occurring between Geran and Broli. That being said, using the same point (the power trend) I’ve countered as a rebuttal to my counter is fallacious.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:17 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:44 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:17 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:02 pm


Fact 1: Hmmm, I guess Beerus is now weaker than Freeza, or Hit if that's true. See, Toriyama is not afraid to break this trend, and it's highly possible that he did so with Geran and Broli.

Fact 2: Again, how much stronger? They could have gotten 1% stronger and that wouldn't close the gap between them and Geran.
The point is, even if it's by 1% or 10,000%, any version of Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their TOP counterparts. Broly faced stronger opponents than what Jiren faced.

Also, Beerus was setup as an goalpost for Goku, so Freeza wasn't stronger than him. However Hit was stronger than Freeza. Which continues Toriyama's plot trend.
As there’s no evidence that Goku and Vegeta made a gain in power worth mentioning in-series, you really want to say that SSB Goku (ToP) + 1% is somehow stronger than SSBKK20 Goku (ToP)?

I just pointed out that trend broke once again with Geran and Broli, and gave evidence why Toriyama isn’t afraid to subvert (one of his favorite things to do in the series) that trend. I also gave evidence why Geran is stronger as a point against that trend occurring between Geran and Broli. That being said, using the same point (the power trend) I’ve countered as a rebuttal to my counter is fallacious.
You didn't counter anything. You used assumptions contrary to Toriyama's story facts. Jiren CAN'T be stronger than Broly cause Toriyama himself said the next enemy is "ALWAYS" stronger than the last. He agreed that Goku is always facing the "EVER-STRONGER opponents" and the "mightiest-foe." You are going to need a direct statement from Toriyama, proving this narration has changed.

Secondly, I didn't say a SSB+1 after the TOP is stronger than a BlueKKX20. I am saying it doesn't matter WHICH MEDIUM you ADAPT the Broly movie in. In the manga NO version of SSB will be able to beat Broly, in the anime as well, SSBE and BlueKKX20 is getting decimated by Broly. Since Toriyama's plot had Goku and Vegeta outright lose to Broly.

The anime and manga will be under authority to Toriyama's plot. Since this is POST TOP, Broly is facing STRONGER versions of each of those Goku and Vegeta's, regardless of the medium. Due to Toriyama's narration, Jiren faced weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta. No matter the amount of increase but the plot always has Goku and Vegeta increasing and fighting the stronger opponents. This is a fact from the highest authority of DB's story.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:17 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:44 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:17 pm

The point is, even if it's by 1% or 10,000%, any version of Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their TOP counterparts. Broly faced stronger opponents than what Jiren faced.

Also, Beerus was setup as an goalpost for Goku, so Freeza wasn't stronger than him. However Hit was stronger than Freeza. Which continues Toriyama's plot trend.
As there’s no evidence that Goku and Vegeta made a gain in power worth mentioning in-series, you really want to say that SSB Goku (ToP) + 1% is somehow stronger than SSBKK20 Goku (ToP)?

I just pointed out that trend broke once again with Geran and Broli, and gave evidence why Toriyama isn’t afraid to subvert (one of his favorite things to do in the series) that trend. I also gave evidence why Geran is stronger as a point against that trend occurring between Geran and Broli. That being said, using the same point (the power trend) I’ve countered as a rebuttal to my counter is fallacious.
1) You didn't counter anything. You used assumptions contrary to Toriyama's story facts. Jiren CAN'T be stronger than Broly cause Toriyama himself said the next enemy is "ALWAYS" stronger than the last. He agreed that Goku is always facing the "EVER-STRONGER opponents" and the "mightiest-foe." You are going to need a direct statement from Toriyama, proving this narration has changed.

2) Secondly, I didn't say a SSB+1 after the TOP is stronger than a BlueKKX20. I am saying it doesn't matter WHICH MEDIUM you ADAPT the Broly movie in. In the manga NO version of SSB will be able to beat Broly, in the anime as well, SSBE and BlueKKX20 is getting decimated by Broly. Since Toriyama's plot had Goku and Vegeta outright lose to Broly.

The anime and manga will be under authority to Toriyama's plot. Since this is POST TOP, 3) Broly is facing STRONGER versions of each of those Goku and Vegeta's, regardless of the medium. Due to Toriyama's narration, Jiren faced weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta. No matter the amount of increase but the plot always has Goku and Vegeta increasing and fighting the stronger opponents. 4) This is a fact that can not be denied by the highest authority of DB's story.
1) It can't be always when Beerus is a point towards contradicting that, and the evidence I've gave that Geran is stronger than Broli is points towards that a few comments ago. I don't need a direct statement from Toriyama when statements and feats from the show point towards what I'm saying.

2) You're changing your point now. I'm not talking about Toriyama's drafts, I'm specifically countering the "Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced." statement you made. Regardless, (SSB) Goku and (SSB) Vegeta did outright lose to Broli but they both were literally using only 5% of their power.

3) Once again, how much stronger have they gotten?

4) Toriyama has already denied it before. Even then, Toriyama's word isn't law in the story, the story's events are. If Toriyama said a statement that clearly contradicts the story like "The Super Saiyan forms actually make Saiyans weaker" would you believe him then? No, because the story outright contradicts it.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:48 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:17 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:44 pm


As there’s no evidence that Goku and Vegeta made a gain in power worth mentioning in-series, you really want to say that SSB Goku (ToP) + 1% is somehow stronger than SSBKK20 Goku (ToP)?

I just pointed out that trend broke once again with Geran and Broli, and gave evidence why Toriyama isn’t afraid to subvert (one of his favorite things to do in the series) that trend. I also gave evidence why Geran is stronger as a point against that trend occurring between Geran and Broli. That being said, using the same point (the power trend) I’ve countered as a rebuttal to my counter is fallacious.
1) You didn't counter anything. You used assumptions contrary to Toriyama's story facts. Jiren CAN'T be stronger than Broly cause Toriyama himself said the next enemy is "ALWAYS" stronger than the last. He agreed that Goku is always facing the "EVER-STRONGER opponents" and the "mightiest-foe." You are going to need a direct statement from Toriyama, proving this narration has changed.

2) Secondly, I didn't say a SSB+1 after the TOP is stronger than a BlueKKX20. I am saying it doesn't matter WHICH MEDIUM you ADAPT the Broly movie in. In the manga NO version of SSB will be able to beat Broly, in the anime as well, SSBE and BlueKKX20 is getting decimated by Broly. Since Toriyama's plot had Goku and Vegeta outright lose to Broly.

The anime and manga will be under authority to Toriyama's plot. Since this is POST TOP, 3) Broly is facing STRONGER versions of each of those Goku and Vegeta's, regardless of the medium. Due to Toriyama's narration, Jiren faced weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta. No matter the amount of increase but the plot always has Goku and Vegeta increasing and fighting the stronger opponents. 4) This is a fact that can not be denied by the highest authority of DB's story.
1) It can't be always when Beerus is a point towards contradicting that, and the evidence I've gave that Geran is stronger than Broli is points towards that a few comments ago. I don't need a direct statement from Toriyama when statements and feats from the show point towards what I'm saying.

2) You're changing your point now. I'm not talking about Toriyama's drafts, I'm specifically countering the "Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced." statement you made. Regardless, (SSB) Goku and (SSB) Vegeta did outright lose to Broli but they both were literally using only 5% of their power.

3) Once again, how much stronger have they gotten?

4) Toriyama has already denied it before. Even then, Toriyama's word isn't law in the story, the story's events are. If Toriyama said a statement that clearly contradicts the story like "The Super Saiyan forms actually make Saiyans weaker" would you believe him then? No, because the story outright contradicts it.
Except nothing contradicts Toriyama's statement about his story. Beerus was SET UP to be Goku's FUTURE Goalpost. So that doesn't break Toriyama's narration but actually continues it. Which also proves why Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus if he is a FUTURE villain for an ever stronger growing Goku!

I didn't change up my point, I wasn't talking Toriyama's drafts, my whole premise is that the NARRATION of Toriyama always has Goku and Vegeta getting stronger and fighting the ever stronger opponents REGARDLESS OF THE FORMS USED. For example, If Broly fought MUI Goku, that MUI Goku would be stronger than the MUI Goku that Jiren fought. NO MATTER THE strength increase cause Toriyama's plot always has Goku stronger the next arc.

BTW you pulled that 5% power use out of the air as well...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:57 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:48 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:17 pm

1) You didn't counter anything. You used assumptions contrary to Toriyama's story facts. Jiren CAN'T be stronger than Broly cause Toriyama himself said the next enemy is "ALWAYS" stronger than the last. He agreed that Goku is always facing the "EVER-STRONGER opponents" and the "mightiest-foe." You are going to need a direct statement from Toriyama, proving this narration has changed.

2) Secondly, I didn't say a SSB+1 after the TOP is stronger than a BlueKKX20. I am saying it doesn't matter WHICH MEDIUM you ADAPT the Broly movie in. In the manga NO version of SSB will be able to beat Broly, in the anime as well, SSBE and BlueKKX20 is getting decimated by Broly. Since Toriyama's plot had Goku and Vegeta outright lose to Broly.

The anime and manga will be under authority to Toriyama's plot. Since this is POST TOP, 3) Broly is facing STRONGER versions of each of those Goku and Vegeta's, regardless of the medium. Due to Toriyama's narration, Jiren faced weaker versions of Goku and Vegeta. No matter the amount of increase but the plot always has Goku and Vegeta increasing and fighting the stronger opponents. 4) This is a fact that can not be denied by the highest authority of DB's story.
1) It can't be always when Beerus is a point towards contradicting that, and the evidence I've gave that Geran is stronger than Broli is points towards that a few comments ago. I don't need a direct statement from Toriyama when statements and feats from the show point towards what I'm saying.

2) You're changing your point now. I'm not talking about Toriyama's drafts, I'm specifically countering the "Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced." statement you made. Regardless, (SSB) Goku and (SSB) Vegeta did outright lose to Broli but they both were literally using only 5% of their power.

3) Once again, how much stronger have they gotten?

4) Toriyama has already denied it before. Even then, Toriyama's word isn't law in the story, the story's events are. If Toriyama said a statement that clearly contradicts the story like "The Super Saiyan forms actually make Saiyans weaker" would you believe him then? No, because the story outright contradicts it.
1) Except nothing contradicts Toriyama's statement about his story. Beerus was SET UP to be Goku's FUTURE Goalpost. So that doesn't break Toriyama's narration but actually continues it. Which also proves why Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus if he is a FUTURE villain for an ever stronger growing Goku!

I didn't change up my point, I wasn't talking Toriyama's drafts, my whole premise is that the NARRATION of Toriyama always has Goku and Vegeta getting stronger and fighting the ever stronger opponents REGARDLESS OF THE FORMS USED. For example, If Broly fought MUI Goku, that MUI Goku would be stronger than the MUI Goku that Jiren fought. 2) NO MATTER THE strength increase cause Toriyama's plot always has Goku stronger the next arc.
1) If that's the case, I can say that Geran doesn't contradict the statement because he's also a future goal-post much like Beerus.

2) Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned. So, while Broli did beat a stronger SSB than Geran did, I doubt current SSB surpasses or is anywhere near ToP SSBKKx20/SSBE therefore Geran defeated a much stronger Goku. In essence, ToP SSB < Broli Movie SSB <<<<< ToP SSBKKx20.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:10 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:57 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:48 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:34 pm


1) It can't be always when Beerus is a point towards contradicting that, and the evidence I've gave that Geran is stronger than Broli is points towards that a few comments ago. I don't need a direct statement from Toriyama when statements and feats from the show point towards what I'm saying.

2) You're changing your point now. I'm not talking about Toriyama's drafts, I'm specifically countering the "Broly fought a STRONGER Goku and Vegeta than the one Jiren faced." statement you made. Regardless, (SSB) Goku and (SSB) Vegeta did outright lose to Broli but they both were literally using only 5% of their power.

3) Once again, how much stronger have they gotten?

4) Toriyama has already denied it before. Even then, Toriyama's word isn't law in the story, the story's events are. If Toriyama said a statement that clearly contradicts the story like "The Super Saiyan forms actually make Saiyans weaker" would you believe him then? No, because the story outright contradicts it.
1) Except nothing contradicts Toriyama's statement about his story. Beerus was SET UP to be Goku's FUTURE Goalpost. So that doesn't break Toriyama's narration but actually continues it. Which also proves why Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus if he is a FUTURE villain for an ever stronger growing Goku!

I didn't change up my point, I wasn't talking Toriyama's drafts, my whole premise is that the NARRATION of Toriyama always has Goku and Vegeta getting stronger and fighting the ever stronger opponents REGARDLESS OF THE FORMS USED. For example, If Broly fought MUI Goku, that MUI Goku would be stronger than the MUI Goku that Jiren fought. 2) NO MATTER THE strength increase cause Toriyama's plot always has Goku stronger the next arc.
1) If that's the case, I can say that Geran doesn't contradict the statement because he's also a future goal-post much like Beerus.

2) Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned. So, while Broli did beat a stronger SSB than Geran did, I doubt current SSB surpasses or is anywhere near ToP SSBKKx20/SSBE therefore Geran defeated a much stronger Goku. In essence, ToP SSB < Broli Movie SSB <<<<< ToP SSBKKx20.
You're still not getting it. It doesn't matter if Broly fought a SSBKKX20 Goku/SSBE Vegeta. Those forms in the Broly arc would be STRONGER than the SSBKKX20 and SSBE used in the TOP ANYWAY. REGARDLESS of how much of a strength increase Goku and Vegeta got. Why? Cause Toriyama's PLOT of Goku and Vegeta ever increasing in strength and the next opponent always being stronger. Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms.

BTW, Jiren was never stated to be a future goal post for Goku like Beerus. It's not even the same when Goku already beat Jiren head up. Fighting him later as a sparing partner is different..
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:14 pm

How much stronger do you guys suppose Ultra Instinct and HP Jiren are than SSB Fusion?

I've seen a lot of things thrown around. Exactly the same level, weaker, slightly stronger, dozens of times stronger, and even hundreds of times stronger.

Personally, I think the truth is somewhere between slightly and dozens.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:25 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:10 pm
Helios518 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:57 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:48 pm


1) Except nothing contradicts Toriyama's statement about his story. Beerus was SET UP to be Goku's FUTURE Goalpost. So that doesn't break Toriyama's narration but actually continues it. Which also proves why Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus if he is a FUTURE villain for an ever stronger growing Goku!

I didn't change up my point, I wasn't talking Toriyama's drafts, my whole premise is that the NARRATION of Toriyama always has Goku and Vegeta getting stronger and fighting the ever stronger opponents REGARDLESS OF THE FORMS USED. For example, If Broly fought MUI Goku, that MUI Goku would be stronger than the MUI Goku that Jiren fought. 2) NO MATTER THE strength increase cause Toriyama's plot always has Goku stronger the next arc.
1) If that's the case, I can say that Geran doesn't contradict the statement because he's also a future goal-post much like Beerus.

2) Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned. So, while Broli did beat a stronger SSB than Geran did, I doubt current SSB surpasses or is anywhere near ToP SSBKKx20/SSBE therefore Geran defeated a much stronger Goku. In essence, ToP SSB < Broli Movie SSB <<<<< ToP SSBKKx20.
1) You're still not getting it. It doesn't matter if Broly fought a SSBKKX20 Goku/SSBE Vegeta. Those forms in the Broly arc would be STRONGER than the SSBKKX20 and SSBE used in the TOP ANYWAY. REGARDLESS of how much of a strength increase Goku and Vegeta got. Why? Cause Toriyama's PLOT of Goku and Vegeta ever increasing in strength and the next opponent always being stronger. Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms.

2) BTW, Jiren was never stated to be a future goal post for Goku like Beerus. It's not even the same when Goku already beat Jiren head up. Fighting him later as a sparing partner is not the same.
1) I did get it. I literally said "Even I'll admit that Goku most likely has gotten stronger than his previous arc counterpart in the same form, but it clearly wasn't a significant gain as is wasn't mentioned." Though, I have been gone for awhile, has Toriyama released his drafts to definitively say that "Broly is stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter which formed is used from any medium, they get dominated in any version of their blue forms." now?

2) It doesn't need to be stated, it's outright shown in the series. Goku can only beat Geran with UI (a form he can't even control); effectively making it that as long as Goku does not have control of UI (which we are seeing him strive for), then he still is not anywhere near Geran. His whole win against Geran was a fluke.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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